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Random thought for the day
grafh
Member UncommonPosts: 320
I just recently purchased Legend of Grimrock on steam, and i must say that im really enjoying the game thus far. Then a thought occured to me. Why hasnt there been an mmo ( at least one that i know of) that has incorporated this? You and your small merry band of killers, stock up on supplies in town, and head into a dungeon. The only way out is to head back to the entrance, or defeat the boss. there are secret passages, traps, and mosnters respawn randomly ( by this i mean if you just killed skeletons in area A, and spiders in area b, when they respawn, you may have vampires in area A, or skeletons in area 
.
Also the dungeon would not be instanced. You will meet other players/groups there. Some friendly, some not. Boss room randomly moves after a certain period of time. So once a group finds it, they may want to signal other groups that its been found. At this point your small group, would converge with other groups and form a raid. One boss is dead, all players that participated recieve a key item, that lets the move on to the next floor. You may later go and help other people recieve keys to the next floor. Death to a boss means you are blocked from fighting that boss for a certain time period. Once the boss is engaged, there is no turning back. There is no way to be revived during a boss fight.
Death means getting sent back to the entrace. If you want to logout, your more than welcome to, but you will remain at the same spot where you logged out, which may just have spawned monsters.. There will be safe areas to log out, and some not so safe. There will be a way to warp back to town, But it will only work in some areas. So you may be able to warp out of a boss battle on one floor, and you may just be locked into a boss battle on another floor.
How awesome would this be if this was what you had to look for after you did the regualr raids. A real Dungeon crawl. You have to manage supplies, pay attention to your surroundings, and watch for allies and enemies, Watch mana and hp ( they do not auto regen in this dungeon unless by equipment with specific stats. i.e "you regen 10hp every 5 minutes").
So my main point is does this sound like something you would look forward to if it was in an mmo? or would you say screw that? Would this be too "hardcore", or you like the challenge? Any opinions are welcome 
p.s legend of grimrock is pretty awesome! check out some youtube videos if need be it.
Comments
There is One and its quite cool- Give me a sec and I will find it and edit the post.
Its OLD and the community is probably small- It was small when I played a couple years ago...But a Blast. Its called DEMISE. I will get you a link. Probably right up your alley. It has a single player mode as well and is Buy to play.
EDIT: http://www.decklinsdemise.com/news.php
heres a video which explains the game http://www.decklinsdemise.com/Ascension%20Introduction%20IFB2/AscensionIntroduction.html
Anyhow, I had a blast with it- The dungeon is HUGE. Withouut doubt the largest I have ever seen... The entire Grimrock game would be maybe three floors of this place- BTW Grimrock was cool =P
There was some early multiplayer RPG on AOL or something which was quite similar to EotB (and by extension Grimrock.) Can't remember the name though (I think it wasn't NWN; don't think it had gold box style combat.)
As for your ideas, you seem to have started with the great gameplay of Grimrock and then choked all life or fun out of it.
I'd love a MMORPG which was done in the spirit of Grimrock. (Although Grimrock's strength is its dense puzzle-solving, which actually hasn't been done well in an MMORPG. Even just adding global chat has the potential to very easily ruin puzzles, as in TSW.)
I'd hate a MMORPG which took Grimrock and poisoned it with all the worst parts of MMORPGs.
(Although I have to be honest that Grimrock was kinda a jerk to me. I hauled a Skull around in my inv for like ~5 hours, then decided it wasn't necessary and dumped all my skulls on the ground somewhere (no minotaurs in my party) and then like 2 hours later and many floors later a skull was required for a puzzle. Spent another 45 minutes scouring floors for where I dropped that skull, but it either disappeared or I dropped it someplace really out of the way. So 8 hours into the game I was stuck, and since it's such a puzzle-centric game I didn't feel like restarting and suffering through 8 hours of puzzles I'd already solved, just to reach where I'd been. So disappointing, because I loved the game up til that point.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I agree about Legend of Grimrock being a good game - but why make an MMORPG out of it? Single-player it's very okay, as co-op multiplayer it would be very okay as well but I can't see how to make a persistent world out of it and wouldn't know why anyone should try.
For me, an MMORPG needs a vibrant, living world where I can be a part of that world - and a few dungeons around a starting village are not a world.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Man I came into this thread thinking like this.
"If turtles have flippers...why can't they flip?"
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
Just no.
Dungeon crawl should be at most co-op small group.
Why would i want 20 other groups in my dungeon stealing my kills? What would that add to the game?
Try demise and see
Grimrock is a small game- Demise is MASSIVE.
When you die other players have to retrive your body (unless you have an alt team who can do it)- Shops require players to stock them up... Kill stealing isnt an issue.
Plus Wizardry MMO is coming soon and will be a dungeong crawl- Use your imagination, just because yo havnt seen it work does not mean its a bad idea.
NOTE: I honestly DO NOT think Wizardry Online is going to be very good (Cash Shop and permadeath do not go together and tell me its going to be very costly for a "free game") but Demise on the other hand is a fantastic Persistant World Dungeon Crawl.
people fear what they dont know. Its just a theory ( about the game)so its all up for debate and skepticism. Its kinda like trying to explain how awesome a mudd can be to a 16 year old kid. They will think there is no way in hell that a text based game is going to work, But it did/does.
Also, i may be mistaken, but i thought a dungeon crawl was suppose to be hard. The harder the better right? The greater the risk, the better the reward. I mean, try incorporating wow's mechanics into a dungeon crawl.
Jake: "were starting now Bob, lets go"
BoB: " i have to buy more stuff in town, u guys start, then summon me to you."
jake: "ok, lets start then suzan, richard"
10min later
Bob: "ok Summon me"
Suzan: "gotcha"
Richard: " i need to buy some supplies i forgot, goign to warp back to town and have you summon me back"
Suzan: "Ok"
10 min later after a pvp fight
Jake: "summon me back"
It gets kinda easy after a while. summon, warp, summon, warp. Death has no meaning except maybe a 3 minute setback. Both groups just keep fighting everytime they see each other.
If there was a harsh death penalty, it would make people think twice before engaging in pvp. Advancing 2 hours in a dungeon, only to get sent back to entrace if you die, will make you think 3 times before you make a choice. Do you pot now, do you fight that boss, do you kill this other group. This is my idea of hardcore dungeon crawling. Keyword being my idea. Some people prefer more casual style gameplay, and thats fine. But how would you incorporate that into a dungeon crawl?
You make it sound like playing with friends should be hard, and not the gameplay itself.
That's completely backwards.
All of the deepest games out there revolve around the challenges themselves being tough. Inconveniences like you describe aren't game depth.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well, EQ has open dungeons. VERY BAD idea. Thank god instances fixed that. If i die, i want to respawn and get back into the fight. Waiting for a team to retrieve my corpse is just not fun.
Yes, Grimrock is a small game. They should keep it that way. Small and sweet beat massive anyday.
I agree with most your points to some degree.
Playing with friends is easy ( effortless is never a word you want to have in any game when describing end game content imo). How hard is it to set a party time (9pm) log on, get supplies, meet at dungeon entrance, and start your dungeon crawl?
I dont see any difficulty with joining those friends, its just that summoning is out the question. I think t he whole idea of summoning has made gaming way to casual. Or now its pressing a button to join a dungeon, no matter where in the world it is.. You have no idea how angry i was, when i went back to wow and all i had to do was press a button, and i could teleport to a dungeon, with a party already made for me. WTH! What happened to the adventure that was getting there, asking friends to meet you there, and trying to find a good group to do it? If you couldnt find a tank, you winged it. The fear you may get killed trying to do a dungeon is enemy territory?
Starting a fresh attempt Should not be effortless, or even easy in anything that is classified as endgame content. " Ok guys, this is attempt number 6 on X boss.. Hows everyones durability looking?".. TOO easy! If you die to the boss, it should make you think twice about what happened before you try again. Things should be analized, What life was he at when he did what? what position was he in? did anyone notice anything? how are we doing on supplies?
This is why there is a lockout timer. death 1= 5min lockout. death 2=10min lockout. death 3= 20min lockout. death 4 = 40min lockout, etc etc. lockouts reset every week on a specific day. If you make it to the boss, you probably wouldnt have to start back at the entrance, just the last safe area you rested at.
What are these "deepest games" that you are refering to? This would be my idea of "the endgame of endgame". Its not something that a casual player can do, it wasnt designed that way ( at least the way i invision it).
Take WoW for example. It has its elite mode and differnt difficulty of tier and its raids.. Well this would be what you would do instead of that or after youve done all that. The reason it sounds so none casual friendly is because it is. Its to cater to those people who feel that the rest of the game doesnt pose the type of challenge they are looking for, but they enjoy the game.
It seems like our disagreement is biased because you "seem" more casual friendly, While i am more "hardcore" friendly.
I agree with "effortless". Nothing is hard, just not fun. Sure i can make a date with a friend, log on at 9pm, get supplies and run to dungeon. But why would i want to do that? Why would i want to commit to 9pm instead of whenever i feel like it? When do i have to walk to a dungeon that i have alread walked 1000 times?
The effort should be in the dungeon crawl, not in the logistics, which most people do not view as a fun part of a GAME.
Well the problem is games have some features with deep gameplay (where skill is involved) and some features with shallow gameplay. And why would you want to spend any significant amount of time in the features with shallow gameplay unless there was a strongly justified reason?
Since the gameplay in creating or reaching a group tended to have very little depth (if that), it really wasn't making the overall game experience deeper. There weren't really decisions or skill involved, it was almost always a mindless mount-up, then wait 2-10 minutes til you reached the dungeon.
The same situation exists for the other mechanics we've mentioned: going back to town to repair requires virtually zero thinking or skill, it's just a chore the game forced upon you.
I'm not entirely sure these example are "not casual friendly" so much as they're enormously dull.
They're in fact very casual friendly -- they require almost no skill!
It's just that few players (casual or otherwise) actually want to waste their time riding to a dungeon (which sometimes has a little bit of depth and frequently involves next to no depth)
Of course there's nothing preventing games from changing that ride to the dungeon so that it often provides deep gameplay, at which point it would be desireable gameplay again. Because it's not inherently a bad idea, it's only a bad idea in every MMORPG I've played (because in every one of them there hasn't been as many interesting decisions outside the dungeon as inside.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver