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"Time-Saving Convenience Items" and "Time Skippers". The New Pay to Win in Guild Wars 2, What will y
Interesting
Member UncommonPosts: 973
Too Long Didnt Read Version:
Whole point is to send the message that its not OK to monetize time and effort, as there is no cap for it (how much time and effort one can potentially invest) and it affects balance within specific time frames. I.e. you dont judge balance of a game based on the false premise that everyone has (the potential to invest thousands of hours to get "everything), neither thousands of hours invested since the beggining and at any point before everyone has thousands of hours invested in the game, any time and effort "economized" by spending on the cash shop does translate to factual advantages. Pay to Win. Fact that there is an illegal blackmarket is a fallacy argument that does not allow the game company to design a game to exploit human nature desire for power and progression with cash shops. It is not moral and ethical to do so as it dilutes the whole point of competition and playing a game in the first place. Its not about not being able to acquire some items in-game, so much as allowing people to acquire them through real money, faster, easier and/or in more amounts. Therefore just saying that one can get anything by "playing" and "through enough* time and effort" does not removes the negative effect of REAL MONEY CAUSING AN IMBALANCE AND DISRUPTANCE OF THE EXPERIENCE through direct or indirect effects on competition.
Throughly explained version:
You spend money to acquire something that ultimatelly allow you to bypass time and effort.
You spend money to acquire something that has value, thus generating value for you out of thin air.
The value you acquire translate into power. The time you skipped, translate into progression. Progression is power.
In the end, anything that is sold on CASH SHOPS that POTENTIALLY allows players to SKIP a portion of TIME AND EFFORT in the game to PROGRESS, ends up giving them a chronologically power advantage over others.
MMORPGs are designed so time is never enough. By design, there isnt a CAP at wich point spending more time does not provide any more material or subjective advantage to a player. By design players can always get more and better resources, gear, valuables.
In that sense there is always a chronologic race for progression and acquisition of resources, equipment, valuables or whatever that can be acquired through time and effort.
Under these designs, selling TIME SKIPPERS or TIME-SAVING CONVENIENCE ITEMS are an indirect way of selling power, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, benefitting from the power bait on the cash shops and evading the criticism that our mmorpg community has grown to evolve and label by "Pay To Win".
Time savers affect the chronologic progression and position of power one holds at any determined point in time.
The main problem is that TIME SKIPPERS, CONTENT SKIPPERS, TIME-SAVING CONVENIENCE ITEMS, whatever the developers name it in their interviews END UP AFFECTING THE INTEGRITY OF THE GAME.
This causes a chain effect that start from the core design of the game, when rates of progression, amount of time and effort required to accomplish certain activiities is decided. Games end up being designed so that the default rate of progression or amount of repetition or attempts, or number of enemies killed, whatever activiity it has, ends up being artificially increased/slowed down in a detrimental way. While for the payers who are envisioned to benefit from the so called "time-savers" end up having a completely diference experience, one whose progression feels more acceptable and natural (as opposed to the artificially "tweaked" one).
This is clearly observed when games started to go from P2P to F2P.
When the factors of power are not subjective (relative to the character: such as levels, classes, skills, unlocks), but material (derived from equipment, upgrades, enchants, resources, whatever currency can translate into direct power), players are misguided into believing that the "progression is fast" or that "the level cap is easily reachable within a short time frame anyway", when in reality in these games the FACTORS OF POWER derive from the material branch. In other words, what commonly we call as "gear grind".
So today I saw the announcement about GUILD WARS 2 RMT and I died a bit inside when I saw the same rethoric speech by ArenaNets' O'Brien about offering "Time-saving convenience items". As if adding the word convenience to it would somehow disguise the pay to win nature of time-saving. And all that disregard the fact that real money will be directly translated into virtual value.
Each day the ethic principles that I grew up as a gamer is shifted into a new ethical paradigm. To me, adding money into the factor of gaming is unethical. Its not ilegal because we the consumers are unorganized and the moving force behind legislation lobbies wants more consumers spending their money and it will take a few years untill the society embraces this virtual social consumerist phenomn and start to treat us like "real life" consumers are.
I believe that what we can do, as I have written before years ago, is that creating a PREJUDICE, by LABELING NEGATIVELLY SOMETHING WE FEEL STRONGLY AGAINST, such as "PAY TO WIN" (as in "this game is pay to win, wich is bad, therefore it sucks" that became automatized in our mass conscience as modern gamers) is a way to VOTE. Is a way to CRIPPLE, is a way to CHANGE and CAUSE EFFECT. We have seen that smart developers ARE TRYING DESPERATELY TO STEEM AWAY FROM THE "OUR GAME IS PAY TO WIN" LABELING.
Now what I believe we must do, is start to impregnate the "TIME-SAVING", "TIME SKIPPERS" IS BAD! In the same way we managed to do together against Pay to Win. We must reject RMT MODELS THAT AFFECT THE INTEGRITY of our games.
That is the best we can do and we can easily spread this idea by just repeatedly applying the negative label filled with prejudice against the "time saving convenience items". In the end, they are as prejudicial to the games as the original pay to win, but this time, they are being camouflaged, masqueraded to bypass our perceptive filters.
You can pm me to discuss more if you want, or you can keep this one bumped for great justice somore people read. I know that the dark forces of censorship are strong on this one and even legitimate complaints may be misinterpreted as trolling, but may the light shine with you.
Older version created to discuss the issue at the time the first hints of this would be introduced in Guild Wars 2. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/345045 . Since that topic is beyond revival time frame for bringing it back to the top, and since this one is directly related to Guild Wars 2 on the lights of the new in game experiences thousands of us are having, this one justifies its existance once again.
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Comments
Well...I dunno. Personally, there is nothing in the cash shop worth buying except a few character slots and maybe cosmetic item here and there. In fact, initially I planned to put $100 in CS. However, I had another long deep look into CS items and came to the conclusion that it simply isn't worth it.
Edit: if people decide to spend money and buy some time-saving items well...more power to them I guess. It will not affect my experience what so ever. So meh..:P
Looking forward to EQL and EQN.
P2W doesn't have the " negative " feel to it anymore. It has become the mainstream description for the cash shop payment model. Players (consumers) have already realized that the so called " free games " are not free in any form. We can thank Diablo 3 for this. Their RMAH has brought to attention the effects that real currency has on games.
see you at launch
Guild Wars 2 is the best MMORPG release in a long time and I hope them all the best.
But what is wrong is wrong and I cannot go along with these abuses. Call me bullshit self righteous, Im 27 years old, but my generation is far from done.
i'm sorry you dont have a job to afford something that literally gives a bonus of 40minutes play time and can also be randomly aquired in game anyway..
Fact - during this beta weekend doing tournament PvP in chests i aquired about 6 potions to increase my glory by 50% for an hour... i used one, suprisingly it didnt make me overpowered in PvP.. maybe thats why i have to buy the cash shop version?
what did glory buy me... PvP gear tokens and chests to make cosmetic items with the same stats as the normal PvP level 80 gear. again, didnt make me overpowered in PvP i did look totally baller though.
i guess seeing people run around with aviator sunglasses on their toon could potentially be unfair to you by no means gamebreaking...
my opinion is less QQ it's happening, no one who is playing really cares and you didnt need to write a novel on the subject because no amount of complaining is going to change it.
Thankyou for your time and have a nice night
Edit - tell people in WoW that are full heroic dragon soul geared that doing more dragon soul is going to make them stronger. sorry to tell you, if you have cleared the latest raid in an MMO on the hardest difficulty and have all gear appropriate to your character you have won the MMO till new content is out and no extra play time is going to make your toon better except for your skill playing him... unfortunatley you cant buy skill in a cash shop.
Before, pay to win = gear.
Now, pay to win = time saving item?
I am sure if any other mmo have the same CS, no one would care about it, but it is GW2, people wants attention.
Just out of curiosity, OP, what you think of the scroll of res in wow?
WOW: The Most Well Known Non-Free Non-Browser Client-Based 3D Fantasy MMORPG In Some Parts of the World.
I agree with the point OP.
The reality is that most of the mmorpg community doesnt care. You people make this an integrity issue, a moral issue etc. This just shows you take it too seriously. Most people that play mmorpgs dont care about this kind of view because they just care about having fun, and how fast someone else is progressing doesnt concern them.
It's still not pay to win.
I'm sorry. It's just not pay to win since you can't buy meaningful advantages where players compete (ie: PvP).
This reminds me of the old casual vs hardcore argument. Should hardcore players be allowed to gain more than casuals? Is it fair that hardcore players can play 8 hours a day when casuals can only play 8 hours a week? Replace time played with money paid for time based items and it's the same argument all over again.
I think the solution is: If you don't like it then don't play. It's obvious that GW2 has a cash shop with exp boosters. If knowing that someone else out there might be gaining more exp in a given time frame than you because you're unwilling to buy cash shop items then don't play GW2 and everyone is happy.
And I stopped right there.
Yes it is ok. Time is worth something. Effort is worth something. It doesn't matter if it's time and effort spent playing a video game, or time and effort spent at an actual job, they both have value. How the value of one is measured against the other depends greatly on the playerbase. Even without a cash shop of any kind, there would still be the translation of real cash to in-game currency through gold and account sellers, like in every other mmo. A cash shop simply represents a more visible, more palatable, and more easily controlled conversion that can directly benefit the game.
Geard does matter in World vs World so yes you can Pay To Win in World vs World.
I'm still trying to figure out what it is other players can buy that is going to make me, who will not be buying said item, feel like I'm at a disadvantage. I can't come up with anything.
you cant directly buy gear.
and gear does not matter.. because end game gear will have same damage on everything.. the only things that will change is the runesets you put on anything and the look of the item.
you cant buy runes off cash shop.
Let's try this from a different angle:
Structured PVP: I'm going to add this because some people might not know about this. You can't have ANY kind of advantage in sPVP by using the Cash Shop because you are leveled to max, have access to all items/skills/traits/ whatever so the competition is healthy.
PVE: If you've forgotten, Guild Wars 2 is a cooperative multiplayer experience.
When you are fighting a big champion boss outside the world, do you ASK the other players what kind of equipment they are using? And more importantly, do you care what kind of equipment the other people around have?
No, and if you answered yes to any of the above then you shouldn't, there is no reason to care what others are doing or what equipement/actual level they are having. So even if they bought items with gold earned by selling gems, or with the magic find booster or with anything else, why should you care?
Why do you feel it's even the least bit important to know the power level of those around you in a cooperative multiplayer experience? It won't prevent you from playing the game, it won't prevent you from having fun, it won't prevent you from completing content.
Also, if someone used a time-skipping item then he probably missed events, he missed all the fun so essentialy he LOST, the point of the game is to have fun and experience new events/encounters not rush to the level cap to start raiding, so I ask again what's the point of worrying over what someone else is doing and how it affects YOU?
Explain how is a time-skipping item giving any kind of advantage or ruins the competition, you don't explain this in your post, you just say it does
WvWvW: After level 30 you should have an almost maxed out character in terms of skills. At around level 40 you should have one trait line maxed and your character ready for combat. Above that the power gain isn't as significant, granted a player without all their skill slots unlocked will be at a disadvantage but this ends at level 30.
Having lots of gold will be useless because of supply. Supply is the mechanic that will make excess gold useless.
Finally WvWvW is all about war, team tactics and coordination win, once the guilds learn the game a bit more I believe we will see some epic battles and no, nobody is going to ask "what's your level" in a serious battle situation.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
You can't buy anything that can't be obtained without using the cash shop.
If GW2 sold unobtainable weapons or armor from the cash shop then you'd be right but since they don't sell anything like that you're wrong.
Even legendaries, the grindiest weapons in the game, won't be anything more than a cosmetic upgrade.
+1
Since you can only really win when there is competition and the only way you can compete with other players in GW2 is by fighting them in sPvP or WvW the only way you would be paying for the win is if you could buy items which were better then other players in PvP. You cannot because of the way the gear works in this game, so it is not pay to win. You can also get every cosmetic item and PvE booster in the game from map completions, personal story, drops, and in game gold.
Funny how I can debunk your entire argument (wall of text) in 3 lines. Honestly man, these threads come up all the time. Every single time the OP gets a handling because of the sheer amount of arguments against this very concept in GW2. I would just stop while you are behind, so you don't get further behind.
You can Pay to Win in World vs World vs World because you can level faster and get better gear. HOWEVER, you cannot Pay to Win in any way, shape, or form in Structured PvP because everyone is equal.
It's the best of both worlds. Some people like to gear grind and dominate in PvP with better gear and some people just wanna be equal and fight each other based on skill.
lol you really have no idea how much the same level 1 - 80 gear is... and not only that but in WvsW your toon is balanced out to the average stats of a level 80 so thats not even an issue... the only issue that comes into play is the amount of skills you would have unlocked and FYI the "exp" boosters only work off monster kills and monsters grant woeful exp... it's been mathed out the time you would save using an exp booster is roughly 20min of gameplay
Yes, and this point has already been made moot in another topic. Everyone just carries supplies with them.
Time saving items are put into the cash shop allowing people that have more money than time to play at a comparitive level to people that have more time than money.
This is a good thing.
There are alot of "socially disadvantaged peoples" that have no initiative to be a productive member of society, and instead divulge their entire life into playing video games. Why should a developer cater to this group? Sure they are a portion of the playerbase, but it's not the majority. If they cater to this group, it actually condones this sort of behavior.
There are alot of "professional gamers" that focus their life on trying to earn money through the game. Gold farmers, account sellers, etc. These people ruin the game experience for the majority of players. Why would a developer cater to this minority?
The majority of the playerbase is casuals. This is an obvious fact from the knowledge that the majority of people have jobs, and therefore are unable to play video games 24/7. Sure makes alot of sense to cater to this crowd.
The question I have is, what sort of person complains about an opportunity for the game to balance out for casuals?
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Still not pay 2 win...
The first thing I did this BWE was checked the Gem trading post to see if items changed.... Everything that was in the shop was kinda stupid and not worth the money except some really cool glasses which I see fit for my asura and a few character slots...
Everything else in the shop isn't just something I'd buy. Sure there's time convinience items in the shop and time saving items, but I just don't see how that gives me an advantage over someone since I don't care when will I get a certain item which I'm collecting karma / pvp points for. I was getting those points pretty darn fast anyways without any other time convinient buffs.
One thing I noticed as well, I also got a random "unindentified dye pack" and "mystic chest" as a world drop, but still haven't recieved the "mystic key" as a drop, but I kinda have a feeling those won't be really rare drops and have no idea what kind of items could it get us.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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Real Money = Gems = Ingame Money = Stuff that gives advantage.
Graphical version for those who were blind.
The cash shop really putting me off gw2. Been saying it since the day they announce those "time saving" cs item. It's pay to win