"Time-Saving Convenience Items" and "Time Skippers". The New Pay to Win in Guild Wars 2, What will y

nate1980

Well, I'm an older gamer (31yrs old), so I've seen what games used to be and was able to understand what I had back then and the difference between what we have now. First off, I think the OP is correct, albeit, I think the college level essay you just wrote will be lost on the majority of posters here, since I believe most to be of high school age.

Anyways, back to what I was saying. I remember games, both SPG and MMORPG's when they were games. Meaning, they were challenging problems meant to be solved. Games where player competition were allowed set everyone on equal footing and the only way to gain an edge over other players were through time, effort, and practice. Practice turned you into a skilled player eventually.

So, if time invested = an advantage over other players, then any sort of experience boost or buffs that allow you to bypass the "grind" that non-paying members have to do grants you an advantage, since time spent in game = progression, and progression = power. In other words, early and mid game becomes unfair towards those who don't spend where competition comes into play. If there isn't any competition, then it doesn't matter.

I've said all the same things since we've learned GW2 will sell time-saving items, but I was ignored.

With all of that said, aside from boycotting games, which if we're honest won't happen, what can we really do? Nothing. So we either boycott these games alone and mis out on an otherwise good game, or we accept what the times have brought us and play the game anyways. I'm resigned to our fate, because I love to play games more than I love to take political stances on things I know will not change.

I haven't bought so many SPG's because they started doing the downloadable content thing where you have to pay for it, such as ME3, any future Dragon Ages, and Arkam City. I remember when you used to get a single player RPG and it'd not only be challenging, but last you for a great while, not to mention it'd be feature complete and a full game. Nowadays, they're extremely short, cookie cutter games, that offer a handful of hours of downloadable content if you're willing to fork out the cash.

BeansnBread

Originally posted by Interesting

Real Money = Gems = Ingame Money = Stuff that gives advantage.

People aren't arguing that the relationship that you lay out here doesn't exist. They are arguing that the advantages given are negligible based on the design direction of GW2.

 

I wish I had a big graph for you, but basically, all you have to do is imagine a world where a person can see another person get to level 80 a day faster than themselves and be ok with it.

 

On a side note, the XP buff is particularly weak since it only counts for creatures killed and not total xp you get.

austriacus

Originally posted by nate1980

Well, I'm an older gamer (31yrs old), so I've seen what games used to be and was able to understand what I had back then and the difference between what we have now. First off, I think the OP is correct, albeit, I think the college level essay you just wrote will be lost on the majority of posters here, since I believe most to be of high school age.

Anyways, back to what I was saying. I remember games, both SPG and MMORPG's when they were games. Meaning, they were challenging problems meant to be solved. Games where player competition were allowed set everyone on equal footing and the only way to gain an edge over other players were through time, effort, and practice. Practice turned you into a skilled player eventually.

So, if time invested = an advantage over other players, then any sort of experience boost or buffs that allow you to bypass the "grind" that non-paying members have to do grants you an advantage, since time spent in game = progression, and progression = power. In other words, early and mid game becomes unfair towards those who don't spend where competition comes into play. If there isn't any competition, then it doesn't matter.

I've said all the same things since we've learned GW2 will sell time-saving items, but I was ignored.

With all of that said, aside from boycotting games, which if we're honest won't happen, what can we really do? Nothing. So we either boycott these games alone and mis out on an otherwise good game, or we accept what the times have brought us and play the game anyways. I'm resigned to our fate, because I love to play games more than I love to take political stances on things I know will not change.

I haven't bought so many SPG's because they started doing the downloadable content thing where you have to pay for it, such as ME3, any future Dragon Ages, and Arkam City. I remember when you used to get a single player RPG and it'd not only be challenging, but last you for a great while, not to mention it'd be feature complete and a full game. Nowadays, they're extremely short, cookie cutter games, that offer a handful of hours of downloadable content if you're willing to fork out the cash.

Seriously? you have been in this community for a while, you know this forum is where every mmorpg vet is and you should also know that the average gamer age is over 30 years old. Just because people dont agree with you or dont really bother reading walls of text(not everyone likes to read), doesnt mean they are high school kids.

In fact most of the posters on the forum are far older than you

InFlamestwo

Are you serious? if you want to level faster, there is no problem with that. You won't get more gold or more loot, so what's the problem? if players want to level up faster they should be able to do so. I feel like GW2 leveling is much slower than in other games, but you know what? i don't care, because the game is so fun i don't even realise when i level up. If you really want to play all of the game, there is 5 starter zones for each race and by the time you have done them all you will be lvl 30+

mbrodie

Originally posted by austriacus

Originally posted by nate1980

Well, I'm an older gamer (31yrs old), so I've seen what games used to be and was able to understand what I had back then and the difference between what we have now. First off, I think the OP is correct, albeit, I think the college level essay you just wrote will be lost on the majority of posters here, since I believe most to be of high school age.

Anyways, back to what I was saying. I remember games, both SPG and MMORPG's when they were games. Meaning, they were challenging problems meant to be solved. Games where player competition were allowed set everyone on equal footing and the only way to gain an edge over other players were through time, effort, and practice. Practice turned you into a skilled player eventually.

So, if time invested = an advantage over other players, then any sort of experience boost or buffs that allow you to bypass the "grind" that non-paying members have to do grants you an advantage, since time spent in game = progression, and progression = power. In other words, early and mid game becomes unfair towards those who don't spend where competition comes into play. If there isn't any competition, then it doesn't matter.

I've said all the same things since we've learned GW2 will sell time-saving items, but I was ignored.

With all of that said, aside from boycotting games, which if we're honest won't happen, what can we really do? Nothing. So we either boycott these games alone and mis out on an otherwise good game, or we accept what the times have brought us and play the game anyways. I'm resigned to our fate, because I love to play games more than I love to take political stances on things I know will not change.

I haven't bought so many SPG's because they started doing the downloadable content thing where you have to pay for it, such as ME3, any future Dragon Ages, and Arkam City. I remember when you used to get a single player RPG and it'd not only be challenging, but last you for a great while, not to mention it'd be feature complete and a full game. Nowadays, they're extremely short, cookie cutter games, that offer a handful of hours of downloadable content if you're willing to fork out the cash.

Seriously? you have been in this community for a while, you know this forum is where every mmorpg vet is and you should also know that the average gamer age is over 30 years old. Just because people dont agree with you or dont really bother reading walls of text(not everyone likes to read), doesnt mean they are high school kids.

In fact most of the posters on the forum are far older than you

but it's easier to try and prove a point when you demean others in the process... i been around games a long time too, point is change isnt always a big scary monster and getting to 80 faster then the next guy isnt going to give you a big advantage anywhere in the game as someone said before based off the design direction. the game isnt a rush to max level, grind dungeons and start raiding so there is no real major advantage in getting to level 80 faster. Also i do have a problem with cash shops where i can buy my max level and gear and pwn all the noobs without any skill, but you actual require a certain degree of skill / profession knowledge to be competetive in any level in GW2 the game's meta will be constantly evolving and the way it's setup is so that each week, month whatever new builds will be made to counter old builds if not on a daily basis and on a minimum you will see FOTM builds that will be quickly countered and new builds released.. the game is about skill and strategy at it's core so no amount of cosmetic items, xp boosts, karma boosts etc... is going to give you some massive edge to be the bestest ever... knowing classes inside and out and working out good synergies is the way to win. on a side note.. i totally think my norn will look badass rockin out some aviators

StrixMaxima

Has any other theme besides this one been so beaten up to a pulp in MMO history?

This is right up there with "NGE killed SWG" and "WoW sucks".

Gold has VERY little weight in this game. You can carry a VERY limited amount of Supply at once. Having the option of selling Gems for Gold provides a NEGLIGIBLE advantage, which will only grow thinner as time goes by and people accrue more Gold.

Comparing this game's Shop to a Chinese P2W grinder's is dishonest, misleading and downright stupid.

rissies

Originally posted by Interesting

Graphical version for those who were blind.

 

 

You're missing the half that explains accruing the cash. Strangely enough, it doesn't actually grow on trees. 

Vesavius

Originally posted by sapheroith

Before, pay to win = gear.

Now, pay to win = time saving item?

I am sure if any other mmo have the same CS, no one would care about it, but it is GW2, people wants attention.

Just out of curiosity, OP, what you think of the scroll of res in wow?

 

It can be argued, I think, that in a PvE game (or the PvE section of a game, as in the case of GW2) that developing your character is 'winning'.

So yes, while in a PvP focused game buying power is P2W, in a PvE environment buying your character development is P2W.

This includes paying to make it easier to do just that, and it includes buying your rewards straight from a shop rather then playing to earn them.

 

The OP is correct when he says the chosen revenue model effects core design of a game profoundly (speaking about games designed with that model in mind from the start here, not the retrofitted sub based games) and the F2P model brings in with it some pretty bad elements.

 

Now, I am a staunch fan of Play to Achieve, rather then Pay to Achieve, but I have chosen to tolerate the GW2 shop? Why? Well... mainly because the game is really good, and secondly as a Play to Achiever I can play and access everything in that shop. It gives me the choice, nothing is blocked off from my style of play.

 

ANet are showing some suspicious signs with their shop at this point (the changing of the FAQ wording regarding it, the hiring of ex Perfect World people to head it up, the change in dyes, the random pet bags, taking real money off people in beta etc) but at this point it is ok. Nothing much to worry about right now, but we should't ignore trends and indicators for a possible future either.

But we should watch them closely from this point on. We need to tell them that this is our 'sweet point' and nothing heavier will be tolerated.

RelytDnegel

Agree 100% with everything. Would rather pay a sub then have the cash shop. What will I do? Nothing because it won't make the slightest bit of difference what I do. Maybe curl up in a ball over in that corner...

Zezda

Let me spell this out for you, real easy, so you can understand.

 

Having extra gold (or anything from the cash shop) does not make you 'win' in GW2. It does not make you more powerfull and it does not give you any advantage over anyone else

 

[EDIT]

 

Did you know that EVE is more P2W than GW2? Why don't you go troll their forums and see how that goes for you.

DJJazzy

I could care less. What other people do in a video game doesn't affect my enjoyment in the slightest.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0

Vesavius

Originally posted by DJJazzy

I could care less. What other people do in a video game doesn't affect my enjoyment in the slightest.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0

 

 

You do know that Peter Griffin is probably not a character to aspire to, right?

 

And the revenue model DOES affect YOUR enjoyment of any given game, because it has a profound effect on the core design of that game.

[mod edit]

 

 

oupslililolo

haters gonna hate

 

GW2 is the best mmorpg out there playing bwe3 and it worth all the money it deserve

Sylvari best race-world hands down

nate1980

Originally posted by austriacus

Originally posted by nate1980

Well, I'm an older gamer (31yrs old), so I've seen what games used to be and was able to understand what I had back then and the difference between what we have now. First off, I think the OP is correct, albeit, I think the college level essay you just wrote will be lost on the majority of posters here, since I believe most to be of high school age.

Anyways, back to what I was saying. I remember games, both SPG and MMORPG's when they were games. Meaning, they were challenging problems meant to be solved. Games where player competition were allowed set everyone on equal footing and the only way to gain an edge over other players were through time, effort, and practice. Practice turned you into a skilled player eventually.

So, if time invested = an advantage over other players, then any sort of experience boost or buffs that allow you to bypass the "grind" that non-paying members have to do grants you an advantage, since time spent in game = progression, and progression = power. In other words, early and mid game becomes unfair towards those who don't spend where competition comes into play. If there isn't any competition, then it doesn't matter.

I've said all the same things since we've learned GW2 will sell time-saving items, but I was ignored.

With all of that said, aside from boycotting games, which if we're honest won't happen, what can we really do? Nothing. So we either boycott these games alone and mis out on an otherwise good game, or we accept what the times have brought us and play the game anyways. I'm resigned to our fate, because I love to play games more than I love to take political stances on things I know will not change.

I haven't bought so many SPG's because they started doing the downloadable content thing where you have to pay for it, such as ME3, any future Dragon Ages, and Arkam City. I remember when you used to get a single player RPG and it'd not only be challenging, but last you for a great while, not to mention it'd be feature complete and a full game. Nowadays, they're extremely short, cookie cutter games, that offer a handful of hours of downloadable content if you're willing to fork out the cash.

Seriously? you have been in this community for a while, you know this forum is where every mmorpg vet is and you should also know that the average gamer age is over 30 years old. Just because people dont agree with you or dont really bother reading walls of text(not everyone likes to read), doesnt mean they are high school kids.

In fact most of the posters on the forum are far older than you

I don't believe that for a minute. I've been a part of this forum since 2003 when first discovering that DAoC wasn't the only game of it's kind after playing it for 2 years already. Didn't even know there was a genre called MMORPG's. Anyways, back then I'd of agreed with you now, but I call it as I see it. The general trolling, hating, flaming, and lack of patience to read are all traits more commonly found in kids, not adults, especially not older adults. I'm not saying there aren't good or bad in both age groups, just a general rull of thumb.

botrytis

This has been discussed AD NAUSEUM already. This is NOT a P2W CS - it is a convenience CS and a LOOK CS. Anything you get in the CS can be found in the game.

People get over yourselves - the CS in the game - DEAL WITH IT.

nate1980

Originally posted by mbrodie

Originally posted by austriacus

Originally posted by nate1980

Well, I'm an older gamer (31yrs old), so I've seen what games used to be and was able to understand what I had back then and the difference between what we have now. First off, I think the OP is correct, albeit, I think the college level essay you just wrote will be lost on the majority of posters here, since I believe most to be of high school age.

Anyways, back to what I was saying. I remember games, both SPG and MMORPG's when they were games. Meaning, they were challenging problems meant to be solved. Games where player competition were allowed set everyone on equal footing and the only way to gain an edge over other players were through time, effort, and practice. Practice turned you into a skilled player eventually.

So, if time invested = an advantage over other players, then any sort of experience boost or buffs that allow you to bypass the "grind" that non-paying members have to do grants you an advantage, since time spent in game = progression, and progression = power. In other words, early and mid game becomes unfair towards those who don't spend where competition comes into play. If there isn't any competition, then it doesn't matter.

I've said all the same things since we've learned GW2 will sell time-saving items, but I was ignored.

With all of that said, aside from boycotting games, which if we're honest won't happen, what can we really do? Nothing. So we either boycott these games alone and mis out on an otherwise good game, or we accept what the times have brought us and play the game anyways. I'm resigned to our fate, because I love to play games more than I love to take political stances on things I know will not change.

I haven't bought so many SPG's because they started doing the downloadable content thing where you have to pay for it, such as ME3, any future Dragon Ages, and Arkam City. I remember when you used to get a single player RPG and it'd not only be challenging, but last you for a great while, not to mention it'd be feature complete and a full game. Nowadays, they're extremely short, cookie cutter games, that offer a handful of hours of downloadable content if you're willing to fork out the cash.

Seriously? you have been in this community for a while, you know this forum is where every mmorpg vet is and you should also know that the average gamer age is over 30 years old. Just because people dont agree with you or dont really bother reading walls of text(not everyone likes to read), doesnt mean they are high school kids.

In fact most of the posters on the forum are far older than you

but it's easier to try and prove a point when you demean others in the process... i been around games a long time too, point is change isnt always a big scary monster and getting to 80 faster then the next guy isnt going to give you a big advantage anywhere in the game as someone said before based off the design direction. the game isnt a rush to max level, grind dungeons and start raiding so there is no real major advantage in getting to level 80 faster. Also i do have a problem with cash shops where i can buy my max level and gear and pwn all the noobs without any skill, but you actual require a certain degree of skill / profession knowledge to be competetive in any level in GW2 the game's meta will be constantly evolving and the way it's setup is so that each week, month whatever new builds will be made to counter old builds if not on a daily basis and on a minimum you will see FOTM builds that will be quickly countered and new builds released.. the game is about skill and strategy at it's core so no amount of cosmetic items, xp boosts, karma boosts etc... is going to give you some massive edge to be the bestest ever... knowing classes inside and out and working out good synergies is the way to win. on a side note.. i totally think my norn will look badass rockin out some aviators

I agree with you for the long run. But in the short run, meaning release and the first 1-3 months, those who level faster will have an advantage, because leveling faster means you reach post 30 faster, which means you have a better selection of skills, which can make the difference in World PvP. It doesn't matter if that advantage is small or large, it's the principle that a person can buy that advantage...even if it is only an indirect advantage.

I don't know why you can't see things from the OP's point of view, even if you don't agree with it. I certainly can see both points of view and find valid arguments for those for and against cash shops. I'll be playing anyways, but I just thought I'd support the OP'er, since I think he/she has a point.

Kyleran

Look, I'm really an older gamer, have always been challenged to find the time to carve out of my life to remain competitive with those who have far more free time than I to devote to a game.

I recall gnashing my teeth years ago in L2 when there were people at level 70 one-shotting me in sieges who was only level 52 after 6 months of playing.

For some reason a mentality rose up that players who played more disposable time deserved to be more powerful than anyone else, including me who could never compete.  To that I would be told, "well then maybe MMO's are not for you, stick to some other games" or some other such nonsense.

So now along comes a game that tries to alleviate this "problem" and I salute ANET for that.  Life isn't fair folks, take a lot at professional sports, where the best players are routinely bought to create a competitive team, and circumvent the slower and less certain "farm" systems most have.

So yes, I'll probably partake of the cash shop items to save some time, assuming that I perceive that I have any real need to be level 80 faster than by just standard playing of the title.

The only reason I can see would be if level 80s have a big advanatage in WvWvW, and even then, I'm not much of a PVP'er so that wouldn't necessarily encourage me. (however if all my guild mates are racing to 80 and are going to be in PVP then expect me to be tempted.

 

Meowhead

Originally posted by Kyleran

So yes, I'll probably partake of the cash shop items to save some time, assuming that I perceive that I have any real need to be level 80 faster than by just standard playing of the title.

 

I'll be honest, I'm not sure that buying xp pots is going to help you much in this game.

It is only 50% over 1 hour for kills only.

That means it doesn't apply to hearts, gathering, crafting, DEs or exploration, which is honestly the vast majority of your epxerience compared to just killing (Since it's from multiple sources).

The only boost that seems to be significantly useful is the crafting one, since you can gather up all your materials and hunker down for one hour of extreme crafting.   (Even then, that means it's mostly suited for an alt, somebody who is running a second character, maybe not even really effective until your third).

I mean, I guess if you don't mind spending about a dollar 50 an hour to save a little time, that's fine, but it's equating to about 4.50 (xp boost + magic find boost + karma boost) per hour to save 30 minutes of time (And not even perfectly, especially so far as xp goes)  Not sure that's really worth it, especially with a mere 100 hours until level cap.

Interesting

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Interesting

Real Money = Gems = Ingame Money = Stuff that gives advantage.

People aren't arguing that the relationship that you lay out here doesn't exist. They are arguing that the advantages given are negligible based on the design direction of GW2.

 

I wish I had a big graph for you, but basically, all you have to do is imagine a world where a person can see another person get to level 80 a day faster than themselves and be ok with it.

 

On a side note, the XP buff is particularly weak since it only counts for creatures killed and not total xp you get.

A single enemy, disrupting the time and effort, competition OVERALL EXPERIENCE of everyone else.

Im sure this wont be the worst offense to competition.

People will go out and spend a thousand bucks, BECAUSE THEY CAN. BECAUSE THERE IS INCENTIVE TO DO SO.

Thats what people think until a single enemy finances his whole team against you. What you do? Hope someone on your team does the same? Invest money yourself? Resignes and accepts this reality? Bows down and let them do as they please to you? Thats the attitude you have in real life? Just accept and resignates the control to someone else, without questioning or intervention?

Dilluting the wrong, does not make it disappear. Its an illusion that "it doesnt affect". In fact, if it was not supposed to cause such effect, it would not be allowed to. It would not have been designed to work this way. The hook is there, because they know that people will go for the advantage and thats what they are ultimatelly selling.

 

By changing the minds of the consumers to these, we can make them resist. We can deliver a message to the industry that we will not stand for these blatant disruptions to the basic core elements of our hobby. We can do this, with each communication, person by person, in a chain effect, we can have our way.

botrytis

Originally posted by Kyleran

Look, I'm really an older gamer, have always been challenged to find the time to carve out of my life to remain competitive with those who have far more free time than I to devote to a game.

I recall gnashing my teeth years ago in L2 when there were people at level 70 one-shotting me in sieges who was only level 52 after 6 months of playing.

For some reason a mentality rose up that players who played more disposable time deserved to be more powerful than anyone else, including me who could never compete.  To that I would be told, "well then maybe MMO's are not for you, stick to some other games" or some other such nonsense.

So now along comes a game that tries to alleviate this "problem" and I salute ANET for that.  Life isn't fair folks, take a lot at professional sports, where the best players are routinely bought to create a competitive team, and circumvent the slower and less certain "farm" systems most have.

So yes, I'll probably partake of the cash shop items to save some time, assuming that I perceive that I have any real need to be level 80 faster than by just standard playing of the title.

The only reason I can see would be if level 80s have a big advanatage in WvWvW, and even then, I'm not much of a PVP'er so that wouldn't necessarily encourage me. (however if all my guild mates are racing to 80 and are going to be in PVP then expect me to be tempted.

 

When you go into PvP YOU are lvl 80 - they automatically do that for your character - SO IT IS A NON-ISSUE.

Kenze

get over it OP. seriously. the days of mmos being like a second job and crying over cash shops are over.  join the rest of us in 2012.

Interesting

Originally posted by Kenze

get over it OP. seriously. the days of mmos being like a second job and crying over cash shops are over.  join the rest of us in 2012.

 

I dont get over things. Im a remnant. I dont change. Before I die I will convert those around me to my cause.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Kyleran

So yes, I'll probably partake of the cash shop items to save some time, assuming that I perceive that I have any real need to be level 80 faster than by just standard playing of the title.

 

I'll be honest, I'm not sure that buying xp pots is going to help you much in this game.

It is only 50% over 1 hour for kills only.

That means it doesn't apply to hearts, gathering, crafting, DEs or exploration, which is honestly the vast majority of your epxerience compared to just killing (Since it's from multiple sources).

The only boost that seems to be significantly useful is the crafting one, since you can gather up all your materials and hunker down for one hour of extreme crafting.   (Even then, that means it's mostly suited for an alt, somebody who is running a second character, maybe not even really effective until your third).

I mean, I guess if you don't mind spending about a dollar 50 an hour to save a little time, that's fine, but it's equating to about 4.50 (xp boost + magic find boost + karma boost) per hour to save 30 minutes of time (And not even perfectly, especially so far as xp goes)  Not sure that's really worth it, especially with a mere 100 hours until level cap.

Well yes, I see your point, there's not much about GW2 design that really encourages me to want to rush to the top, 100 hrs till level cap is perfectly reasonable (unlike L2 was back in the day) and like you said, the exp boosts don't really appeal, except perhaps in crafting, and I normally don't spend a lot of time doing that anyways.

That's my real complaint about GW2, the Pay to Win doesn't go far enough  

But then again, I suppose it's not possible for them to sell me any real skill, darn.

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by Kyleran

Look, I'm really an older gamer, have always been challenged to find the time to carve out of my life to remain competitive with those who have far more free time than I to devote to a game.

I recall gnashing my teeth years ago in L2 when there were people at level 70 one-shotting me in sieges who was only level 52 after 6 months of playing.

For some reason a mentality rose up that players who played more disposable time deserved to be more powerful than anyone else, including me who could never compete.  To that I would be told, "well then maybe MMO's are not for you, stick to some other games" or some other such nonsense.

So now along comes a game that tries to alleviate this "problem" and I salute ANET for that.  Life isn't fair folks, take a lot at professional sports, where the best players are routinely bought to create a competitive team, and circumvent the slower and less certain "farm" systems most have.

So yes, I'll probably partake of the cash shop items to save some time, assuming that I perceive that I have any real need to be level 80 faster than by just standard playing of the title.

The only reason I can see would be if level 80s have a big advanatage in WvWvW, and even then, I'm not much of a PVP'er so that wouldn't necessarily encourage me. (however if all my guild mates are racing to 80 and are going to be in PVP then expect me to be tempted.

 

When you go into PvP YOU are lvl 80 - they automatically do that for your character - SO IT IS A NON-ISSUE.

I have a question though, sure, you are level 80, but do you have all the available skills in your class that a person who's reached level 80 has?  I'm going to guess no, and that could be a significant disadvantage in PVP if I were missing some class defining ability due to being lower level.

Oh well, in my case having or not having a few skills in PVP really doesn't change the outcome much, unless its a stun ability that lets me slip away.

 

Amjoco

Circles.

It seems when the haters are warded back from one discussion, proved wrong, or it becomes a stalemate, it leads back to this topic. Cirlces.

lilHeala

As long as folks keep using the term pay 2 win for everything that has a cashshop regardless of items on offer or their effect on the gameplay, I keep on not taking them seriously. You can argue it's a common term but very obviously everybody has a different definition for it and keeps using it in different, often unrelated contexts.

So having seen just the title of OP's post I already stopped taking him seriously.