Even a warrior can get 5+1+5+1+1+3+1+5=22 skills at once (and that's only with one weapon duo of course).
And don't even get me started with an Elementalist.
yeah... 22 skills and you use maybe 3-5 if you wanna win.
And this is where you're wrong.
That's exactly why people who like GW2 gripe about this subject. In wow you could have a giant mess of ui with tons of skills on it, that you only used 3-5 of.
In GW2, every character I played, I used EVERY freaking skill in almost every fight.
Why would I even PUT a skill on my bar, if I wasn't gonna use it? Why would I use a weapon with skills that I don't want to use?
This is what the people are arguing for GW2 are getting at. We don't have skills on our bars to just have skills on our bars in this game, we have them there because we need them.
What level did you get to? Were you max level with all the skills? You probably used every skill at lvl 5 or 10 or even 20... considering you might have had 5-10 lol...
Why does it matter what level you got to? did you play the game AT ALL? SPVP gives you lvl 80, complete skills, traits and max stat armor. Have you missed the myriad of videos were true pvpers show you how to use your complete skill bar?
I am not a great fan of GW2 combat but the rest of the game is so cool that I will bear with it.
Here is my major complaint. In GW2 combat you are basically forced to move around if you want to survive. This is fine in open areas (though you had better watch for aggro!) but does not work in closed areas.
There was a level 10 story quest on the Norn necromancer that I could not beat even at level 15 (downleveling does not help). The combat occurs in a cave. No matter how much you move around you are hit and hit hard and, if you leave the cave the boss resets his life. I never completed the quest.
A similar event on my human mesmer (same level) took me 7 tries and I think that I cheated to beat it. Once again you are forced to fight a boss in a confined space (a single room). I found that if you went up the stairs there was a nook you could hide in to force only one mob at a time. Had I stayed in the main room I would have died.
It doesn't matter what class I play - in a confined area - I die. From what I hear of players who hit level 20 the mobs start doing snares. I have a feeling that is where my time with GW2 will end. You can take a bit a dying as fun but when you die most of the time it is frustrating.
I am not a great fan of GW2 combat but the rest of the game is so cool that I will bear with it.
Here is my major complaint. In GW2 combat you are basically forced to move around if you want to survive. This is fine in open areas (though you had better watch for aggro!) but does not work in closed areas.
There was a level 10 story quest on the Norn necromancer that I could not beat even at level 15 (downleveling does not help). The combat occurs in a cave. No matter how much you move around you are hit and hit hard and, if you leave the cave the boss resets his life. I never completed the quest.
A similar event on my human mesmer (same level) took me 7 tries and I think that I cheated to beat it. Once again you are forced to fight a boss in a confined space (a single room). I found that if you went up the stairs there was a nook you could hide in to force only one mob at a time. Had I stayed in the main room I would have died.
It doesn't matter what class I play - in a confined area - I die. From what I hear of players who hit level 20 the mobs start doing snares. I have a feeling that is where my time with GW2 will end. You can take a bit a dying as fun but when you die most of the time it is frustrating.
You couldn't beat a boss by yourself in a confined area? Awesome, it sounds like it is challenging.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Wrong,just because you fuck up and can't manage more than 5 buttons dosn't mean others have the ability to.
Edit: How can having less abilities to use at any given time be more strategic? The mind boggles with these casual pew pew I shot you your dead I want the loot now! type players.
You just lost all credability with me this that one sentence. so Strategy = loads of options! No it doesn't
Google says Strategy is:
A plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.
The art of planning and directing overall military operations and movements in a war or battle.
A tactic = one of those skills used in a certain way. A Strategy is using those tactics to create a plan of action to complete an aim.
It looks to me its you that doesn't understand the meaning of strategy and tactics.
If you kill a monster using ONLY your auto attack - this can still be called a strategy (its a bad one) but its sill a strategy. Having more skills (tactics) at your disposal increases your options for a strategy but doesnt necessarily mean a better strategy. Just because a game has 50 skill doesn't automatically mean it has a deeper strategy than a game that has only 10. You have to look at the content for those skills and how the gameplay/combat works to really get an idea of how deep a games strategy can get
Your example about soldiers is dumb. You cant use ALL your skills at the same time so having 1million skills instead of 1 skills does not make you 1million times stronger......
Wait, wait wait. You misread something horribly. Fangrim was originally making the argument that he thought having less abilities meant less strategy. Read his original post. My question of How can having less abilties to use be more strategic? Boggles the mind?"paraphrases his original " How can having less abilities to use at any given time be more strategic?" I then answered his question...I was trying to make a counter-argument to HIM, that less abilities DOES mean you need MORE strategy...
Your definition of Strategy (from google) is correct... and what's interesting is that in your following paragraphs, you go on to make an argument that "just because a game has 50 skills doesn't automatically mean it has a deeper strategy than a game that has only 10" ... which WAS my argument.
My example with the soldiers wasn't to illustrate that if you have more skills you're more powerful. IT was to illustrate that if you have more skills you need LESS strategy (planning) about which ones to bring, since you have them all at your disposal. Whereas with only a few skills, you had to use MORE STRATEGY, because you had to figure out what you would need in a future situation.
I think we're actually on the same side of the debate... and all your insults towards me are wasted (friendly fire! )
Let me say this as clearly as I can, my arguments were that:
Having less skills at your disposal at any one time requires you to be more strategic in a game.
Having more skills available to you at the same time requires far less strategy from the player.
It's great because you can end every single fight without being hit once. If you're skilled enough and want to take your time you could no doubt take down a little lvl 80 enemy at lvl 7. I was grinding lvl 22-24 elites at lvl 16 just because I could. I got hit by one melee swing i died. No other game has had this actiony combat in the mmo genre. Certainly not Tera where your gear and lvl dictates far more than your ability to not get hit (tera doesn't allow you to dodge everythibg)
I am not a great fan of GW2 combat but the rest of the game is so cool that I will bear with it.
Here is my major complaint. In GW2 combat you are basically forced to move around if you want to survive. This is fine in open areas (though you had better watch for aggro!) but does not work in closed areas.
There was a level 10 story quest on the Norn necromancer that I could not beat even at level 15 (downleveling does not help). The combat occurs in a cave. No matter how much you move around you are hit and hit hard and, if you leave the cave the boss resets his life. I never completed the quest.
A similar event on my human mesmer (same level) took me 7 tries and I think that I cheated to beat it. Once again you are forced to fight a boss in a confined space (a single room). I found that if you went up the stairs there was a nook you could hide in to force only one mob at a time. Had I stayed in the main room I would have died.
It doesn't matter what class I play - in a confined area - I die. From what I hear of players who hit level 20 the mobs start doing snares. I have a feeling that is where my time with GW2 will end. You can take a bit a dying as fun but when you die most of the time it is frustrating.
Not sure about the Norn fight you're referring to...but I KNOW the House one. Human, Street rat, you chose to save that moron best friend of your character's. I did that as a Mesmer myself. Sword+Pistol/Greatsword.
Dash in and out with autoattacks. Yes there isn't a lot of room, but you can stil get out of melee range. Also, kite him up and down stairs. If he closes in and winds up his big attack, Blurred Frenzy. You can use Illusionary Leap to immobilize him for a few seconds if you need a getaway. Lokc him down then RUN. Pop heals as needed, I also used Magic Bullet and Signet of Dominiation to chain stuns on him. All else fails, Greatsword #5 to knock him away form you. Copious rolling. That fight is hard but not impossible.
The 85656897676 mobs outside the house once you finish him off though...g'luck.
IMO, it is not that the combat is BAD. At times I feel pigenholed into 5 or 6 offensive abilities without much ability to change that up. However, There are a lot of unlockable abilities, etc, so we'll see how that goes. I dont know. I think combo fields are "revolutionary". I love them, absolutely love them. I think that it is one of the bigger steps in MMO combat. Ingenious.
I do have an issue with the combat system though, I think that it is either lag related, unresponsive, or "working as intended" which to me simply feels unresponsive.
Example:
On my thief, I am facing a drake or some other mob.
I see them about to hit me with an ability.
I use flanking strike(which shadow straffs me around to the targets SIDE and strikes them. Used as an evasive ability with damage. Love it. Love the idea of it. )
However, it takes a second for either the ability to kick in because of animation pause, or lag..because by then the mob probably has hit me.
That is my issue with combat. It does not feel free flowing. I cannot be running toward a mob and execute Heartseaker(a leap toward the mob) on the move. My guy will stop, and then leap. Frustrating, annoying, bad design, bug, needs tweaking...
Honestly I foresee that the relative difficulty of gw2 combat later on will be off putting to a lot of gamers who like mmos exclusively and never excelled at pure action console games. I have quite a few casual mmo friends whom I've actually warned.
Originally posted by Svarcanum It's great because you can end every single fight without being hit once. If you're skilled enough and want to take your time you could no doubt take down a little lvl 80 enemy at lvl 7. I was grinding lvl 22-24 elites at lvl 16 just because I could. I got hit by one melee swing i died. No other game has had this actiony combat in the mmo genre. Certainly not Tera where your gear and lvl dictates far more than your ability to not get hit (tera doesn't allow you to dodge everythibg)
Did you even attempt solo'ing BAMs above level 30? im not gonna mindless defend the game cause Tera to me anyway only has the combat going for it the rest was pretty much bland...but you can easily die in 2 hits if you are not watching the attack queue's even with all +6 gear. Dodging is still very important. the only time gear really matters is pvp, for obvious reasons fighting someone with far less superior gear gives you an advantage....but with dodge like you just stated is similar in Tera in that you can completely avoid all damage.
cesmode8, it's intended. Reason is so you have time to react to such a charge ability in pvp. Almost all attacks have a short cast time so you actually have time to dodge it if you're on the receiving end. As for thief gameplay it's crucial to turn off auto attack because otherwise you will always be stuck in a gcd. When you anticipate a melee swing you stop attacking and get ready to use your dodge and strike ability. As a thief I managed to never to take a single point of dmg when 1v1ing a mob. That is, until I got tired and had to start fighting equal level mobs again for fear of dieing...
I never got far enough in tera to completely avoid all dmg. My warrior's dodge CD was way to long to avoid all melee swings. But I'm open to the fact that things change later on, of course
Originally posted by Svarcanum I never got far enough in tera to completely avoid all dmg. My warrior's dodge CD was way to long to avoid all melee swings. But I'm open to the fact that things change later on, of course
The CD doesn't change.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Originally posted by Svarcanum I never got far enough in tera to completely avoid all dmg. My warrior's dodge CD was way to long to avoid all melee swings. But I'm open to the fact that things change later on, of course
You cant avoid all attacks on normal mob's no, in a way BAMs are easy cause theyre slow and once you got their attacks memorized you never get hit, but if you are solo'ing its hard because you need to watch closely for quite awhile without losing ur attention span while fighting cause that one screw up where you blinked and opened ur eyes to a body slam could kill you.
Edit: basically the cd is short enough for BAMs but not normal monsters.
After using GW2s combat system in 3 BWEs and closed testing it ruined me from playing any game in which i am rooted when casting or striking an opponent in either PvE or PvP..
Swapping weapons in combat is a big part of this system and can make it hard for the other guy to know exactly what you are going to throw at him..
What level did you get to? Were you max level with all the skills? You probably used every skill at lvl 5 or 10 or even 20... considering you might have had 5-10 lol...
Level 30 you unlock your elite and that is the last one.
On the other hand, you can go sPvP and you have all of them unlicked.
Yeah still kind of low level....
So your point is that GW2 sucks because it has few skills at low levels...
I see, i don't remember having that many skills in WoW at lol levels, but maybe your wow toon starts with 5 action bars full with skills...
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
From someone who cant even type "yes" way to gut the paragraph to make people see it the way you want them (or even yourself) to see it.
You ask a question, i awsered it my own way. It is not fanboyism, people just like their new mmo to have better combat than the last they played which was rarely the case in mmo history, i hope it's clearer to you now. And no i don't know how to ype perfectly i'm not a machine, neither you are it seam...
some people complain about few skills in GW2 but i want to know ,people who are happy with 40-60 skills , do you use them all in a fight that last less than 1 min ? ( pve fight)
even in pvp i doubt all your 40-60 skills/spells are useful
It actually quite a basic combat system, but that's not a bad thing. It means it doesn't distract from actually playing the game, which allows for more movement, which leads to a sence of more control over one's character.
Agreed.
And what little skills you have on your bar you should always be using. it's not cluttered up with 30 skills with 20 of them being situational.
keep in mind that i have tried some mega builds with a 33 skill Necro build and a 39 Skill elementalist build or my 32 skills Guardian build. Having only 10 buttons doesn´t mean that there are only 10 active skills.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
some people complain about few skills in GW2 but i want to know ,people who are happy with 40-60 skills , do you use them all in a fight that last less than 1 min ? ( pve fight)
even in pvp i doubt all your 40-60 skills/spells are useful
you might actually lose that bet, first off the numbers are way exaggerated...secondly it would depend on the Class, Player, and the build but it is very possible....i remember how crazy my destruction / demonology warlock used to be lol...you have to use all skills or your dps would be crap. Even in tera or rift when i played them.
Edit: As it goes, if you're not using them all you're doing it wrong!
some people complain about few skills in GW2 but i want to know ,people who are happy with 40-60 skills , do you use them all in a fight that last less than 1 min ? ( pve fight)
even in pvp i doubt all your 40-60 skills/spells are useful
you might actually lose that bet, first off the numbers are way exaggerated...secondly it would depend on the Class, Player, and the build but it is very possible....i remember how crazy my destruction / demonology warlock used to be lol...you have to use all skills or your dps would be crap. Even in tera or rift when i played them.
Edit: As it goes, if you're not using them all you're doing it wrong!
I am so glad that good gameplay in GW2 has nothing to do with having the highest DPS
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Rooted attacks I dislike because it's easy to be kitted, no lie lol.
It's actually easier for melee to avoid being kitted in GW 2, that's just the way it is.
This is only one thing I'm getting at. One more thing I'll throw in there is the simple fact all classes can do both range and melee it actually adds to the combat, just that simple thing right tthere.
I could give pplenty of reasons but I'll just give two.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Comments
Why does it matter what level you got to? did you play the game AT ALL? SPVP gives you lvl 80, complete skills, traits and max stat armor. Have you missed the myriad of videos were true pvpers show you how to use your complete skill bar?
I am not a great fan of GW2 combat but the rest of the game is so cool that I will bear with it.
Here is my major complaint. In GW2 combat you are basically forced to move around if you want to survive. This is fine in open areas (though you had better watch for aggro!) but does not work in closed areas.
There was a level 10 story quest on the Norn necromancer that I could not beat even at level 15 (downleveling does not help). The combat occurs in a cave. No matter how much you move around you are hit and hit hard and, if you leave the cave the boss resets his life. I never completed the quest.
A similar event on my human mesmer (same level) took me 7 tries and I think that I cheated to beat it. Once again you are forced to fight a boss in a confined space (a single room). I found that if you went up the stairs there was a nook you could hide in to force only one mob at a time. Had I stayed in the main room I would have died.
It doesn't matter what class I play - in a confined area - I die. From what I hear of players who hit level 20 the mobs start doing snares. I have a feeling that is where my time with GW2 will end. You can take a bit a dying as fun but when you die most of the time it is frustrating.
You couldn't beat a boss by yourself in a confined area? Awesome, it sounds like it is challenging.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Wait, wait wait. You misread something horribly. Fangrim was originally making the argument that he thought having less abilities meant less strategy. Read his original post. My question of How can having less abilties to use be more strategic? Boggles the mind?" paraphrases his original " How can having less abilities to use at any given time be more strategic?" I then answered his question...I was trying to make a counter-argument to HIM, that less abilities DOES mean you need MORE strategy...
Your definition of Strategy (from google) is correct... and what's interesting is that in your following paragraphs, you go on to make an argument that "just because a game has 50 skills doesn't automatically mean it has a deeper strategy than a game that has only 10" ... which WAS my argument.
My example with the soldiers wasn't to illustrate that if you have more skills you're more powerful. IT was to illustrate that if you have more skills you need LESS strategy (planning) about which ones to bring, since you have them all at your disposal. Whereas with only a few skills, you had to use MORE STRATEGY, because you had to figure out what you would need in a future situation.
I think we're actually on the same side of the debate... and all your insults towards me are wasted (friendly fire!
)
Let me say this as clearly as I can, my arguments were that:
Having less skills at your disposal at any one time requires you to be more strategic in a game.
Having more skills available to you at the same time requires far less strategy from the player.
Not sure about the Norn fight you're referring to...but I KNOW the House one. Human, Street rat, you chose to save that moron best friend of your character's. I did that as a Mesmer myself. Sword+Pistol/Greatsword.
Dash in and out with autoattacks. Yes there isn't a lot of room, but you can stil get out of melee range. Also, kite him up and down stairs. If he closes in and winds up his big attack, Blurred Frenzy. You can use Illusionary Leap to immobilize him for a few seconds if you need a getaway. Lokc him down then RUN. Pop heals as needed, I also used Magic Bullet and Signet of Dominiation to chain stuns on him. All else fails, Greatsword #5 to knock him away form you. Copious rolling. That fight is hard but not impossible.
The 85656897676 mobs outside the house once you finish him off though...g'luck.
IMO, it is not that the combat is BAD. At times I feel pigenholed into 5 or 6 offensive abilities without much ability to change that up. However, There are a lot of unlockable abilities, etc, so we'll see how that goes. I dont know. I think combo fields are "revolutionary". I love them, absolutely love them. I think that it is one of the bigger steps in MMO combat. Ingenious.
I do have an issue with the combat system though, I think that it is either lag related, unresponsive, or "working as intended" which to me simply feels unresponsive.
Example:
On my thief, I am facing a drake or some other mob.
I see them about to hit me with an ability.
I use flanking strike(which shadow straffs me around to the targets SIDE and strikes them. Used as an evasive ability with damage. Love it. Love the idea of it. )
However, it takes a second for either the ability to kick in because of animation pause, or lag..because by then the mob probably has hit me.
That is my issue with combat. It does not feel free flowing. I cannot be running toward a mob and execute Heartseaker(a leap toward the mob) on the move. My guy will stop, and then leap. Frustrating, annoying, bad design, bug, needs tweaking...
Did you even attempt solo'ing BAMs above level 30? im not gonna mindless defend the game cause Tera to me anyway only has the combat going for it the rest was pretty much bland...but you can easily die in 2 hits if you are not watching the attack queue's even with all +6 gear. Dodging is still very important. the only time gear really matters is pvp, for obvious reasons fighting someone with far less superior gear gives you an advantage....but with dodge like you just stated is similar in Tera in that you can completely avoid all damage.
The CD doesn't change.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
You cant avoid all attacks on normal mob's no, in a way BAMs are easy cause theyre slow and once you got their attacks memorized you never get hit, but if you are solo'ing its hard because you need to watch closely for quite awhile without losing ur attention span while fighting cause that one screw up where you blinked and opened ur eyes to a body slam could kill you.
Edit: basically the cd is short enough for BAMs but not normal monsters.
After using GW2s combat system in 3 BWEs and closed testing it ruined me from playing any game in which i am rooted when casting or striking an opponent in either PvE or PvP..
Swapping weapons in combat is a big part of this system and can make it hard for the other guy to know exactly what you are going to throw at him..
I love it..
Playing GW2..
Ye you are missing some common sense and logic.
From someone who cant even type "yes" way to gut the paragraph to make people see it the way you want them (or even yourself) to see it.
So your point is that GW2 sucks because it has few skills at low levels...
I see, i don't remember having that many skills in WoW at lol levels, but maybe your wow toon starts with 5 action bars full with skills...
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
You ask a question, i awsered it my own way. It is not fanboyism, people just like their new mmo to have better combat than the last they played which was rarely the case in mmo history, i hope it's clearer to you now. And no i don't know how to ype perfectly i'm not a machine, neither you are it seam...
some people complain about few skills in GW2 but i want to know ,people who are happy with 40-60 skills , do you use them all in a fight that last less than 1 min ? ( pve fight)
even in pvp i doubt all your 40-60 skills/spells are useful
keep in mind that i have tried some mega builds with a 33 skill Necro build and a 39 Skill elementalist build or my 32 skills Guardian build. Having only 10 buttons doesn´t mean that there are only 10 active skills.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
you might actually lose that bet, first off the numbers are way exaggerated...secondly it would depend on the Class, Player, and the build but it is very possible....i remember how crazy my destruction / demonology warlock used to be lol...you have to use all skills or your dps would be crap. Even in tera or rift when i played them.
Edit: As it goes, if you're not using them all you're doing it wrong!
I am so glad that good gameplay in GW2 has nothing to do with having the highest DPS
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
There's no real way to measure it anyway since UI addons are neither supported nor authorized.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Thats not the point, the game is all about using the right skills with the right timing. And not rotating them to get better DPS.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Rooted attacks I dislike because it's easy to be kitted, no lie lol.
It's actually easier for melee to avoid being kitted in GW 2, that's just the way it is.
This is only one thing I'm getting at. One more thing I'll throw in there is the simple fact all classes can do both range and melee it actually adds to the combat, just that simple thing right tthere.
I could give pplenty of reasons but I'll just give two.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.