Not just the sandbox guys, it's pandemic to this website.
Yeah, and SWTOR proved that so well. Remember SWTOR? The game that was hyped by so many, even after playing it in Beta? Remember how it was going to show how wrong Sandboxers are?
I will agree that it's a pandemic, though. You got that much right.
I was never in the beginning era of mmorpgs. WoW was my first, and only successful stint in mmorpgs, and i enjoyed it for a time. I really wish i would have been around for some of these older games. I am 29 but i really didnt get in to gaming until after highschool. Well besides counterstrike. Anyway...sandboxs sound amazing. I did enjoy darkfall for a good 6 months. The hope for the future to me is in a hybrid system. As in make a sandbox world at the core. Then have some themepark encounters sprinkled on. It seems right now. Most games are straight themeprks or themeparks with sandbox features sprinkled on. As missy elliot says. Put your thang down flip it ... Reverse it
I like the posts by those who have the external perspective and are basically just spewing: "Yeah, theyre living in the past and there aren't many of them but they talk too much!"
The paradigm may be shifting, be careful where you spit because you may have to sit there soon.
I think classic MMORPG fans wants to continue to play games that they like. They dont want them to evolve into something very different. I think there should be classic games based on exploring and with a virtual world. Games that was popular 10 years ago are still fun today. New games can be like them but with modern graphics and new virtual worlds. Some new features and mechanics can be added. But not in a way that change the basic design or turns them into a new sub genre...
Some people just dont want change. They prefer to play the type of games they like. Or perhaps you could say they want to continue living in the past. Because its fun.
A good game should be a hybrid with some of the best sandbox features but also with some developer created content. Modern themepark players would of course call a game like that a sandbox. And would not recognize it was a hybrid. But I think this is the type of game that needs to be reborn. It can be marketed and advertized as something new and revolutionary...even if it is based on classic MMORPG ideas. Because for most young players it will be something new and different. Like fashion. Things that was popular decades ago often becomes popular again.
How many, many different phrases have been attached after that clause.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by gravesworn I was never in the beginning era of mmorpgs. WoW was my first, and only successful stint in mmorpgs, and i enjoyed it for a time. I really wish i would have been around for some of these older games. I am 29 but i really didnt get in to gaming until after highschool. Well besides counterstrike. Anyway...sandboxs sound amazing. I did enjoy darkfall for a good 6 months. The hope for the future to me is in a hybrid system. As in make a sandbox world at the core. Then have some themepark encounters sprinkled on. It seems right now. Most games are straight themeprks or themeparks with sandbox features sprinkled on. As missy elliot says. Put your thang down flip it ... Reverse it
That's actually what most of us Sandboxers want. It's not that it's adding Themepark to the Sandbox, it's that you're making a better Sandbox game. But you can look at it either way, I guess.
The key thing with this is that you have to add Themepark to Sandbox, not the other way around. Because a Themepark game, even with Sandbox elements, is still a Themepark and still suffers from exactly the fixed, directed game play that is worn out now. Although it would make for a better Themepark game, a la GW2 and AA (presumably, time will tell on each).
I think there's room for "quests" in a variety of ways in a Sandbox. UO has added quests over the years, and most of them are not Themeparkish. In fact, UO always had "Boss MOBs" in the sense that the lowest levels of Dungeons had the most powerfull MOBs. It just wasn't driven through quests, and anyone could go there if they could survive the higher levels of the dungeons. Not saying they'd last very long, but they could go there. And friends of higher skills could help them stay alive or resurrect them repeatedly.
I also think there's room for, and IMO a deirable apsect of, "Classes" in a special case sense. I think it would be cool if, as an example, to become a "Paladin" you first have to have a certain subset of skills, then go to a Paladin Headquarters and request admitance where you are given a quest you must complete before you are accepted. That quest can be very Themeparkish, as even most Sandbox games have their static content. A liche Lord, for example, can always respawn (and it doesn't mean it's the same Liche Lord?). Kill the Liche Lord (even with help, after all being a Paladin isn't just about solo strength), gain the Soul Gem, and return it to the Paladins. Gain perks as a Paladin.
Having Alignment actions recorded for the character can add to a game of this nature. If the character has ever killed innocent civilians, that can be recorded on the Character, and the Paladins may never accept this character into their ranks. Likewise, killing an innocent after becoming a Paladin could cause the Character to lose Paladin status, booted from the "guild", and lose all perks.
I suspect the business model of sandbox + cash shop = win. (Pay $ for furniture in your player housing!)
On the other hand, it is hard to say how many people really would play such a game. You might only be able to do it in a very popular IP (like Star Wars).
Remember how it was going to show how wrong Sandboxers are?
Actually, nope, I don't remember that. Who launched that particularly hyperbolic gem right into your wheelhouse?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I suspect the business model of sandbox + cash shop = win. (Pay $ for furniture in your player housing!)
On the other hand, it is hard to say how many people really would play such a game. You might only be able to do it in a very popular IP (like Star Wars).
Why do that when the game can be better by allowing players to build the furniture and sell it? That's part of what "Sandbox" means.
Darkfall accomplished something which UO never managed and that is epic fights with dozens, if not hundreds of participants.
The only part of your post that I not only disagree with but is just false. I saw many player built towns sacked by hundreds of players RPing an orc horde in UO.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Remember how it was going to show how wrong Sandboxers are?
Actually, nope, I don't remember that. Who launched that particularly hyperbolic gem right into your wheelhouse?
Of course you don't.
Because, you know, it didn't happen?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A good game should be "exactly as I want it to be"
How many, many different phrases have been attached after that clause.
The only answer I care about of course.
Yup. Makes for a lotta different ideologies among the two main political parties, I suppose.
And mostly, all angry all the time.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The future of Sandboxes is not a Sandbox MMO but an hybrid.
Sandbox + Themepark = Archeage
And when I said Archeage, I mean the design, the concept, not the game itself which might be good or bad depending how XL Games implement those feature.
Regardeless of Archeage success, its concept is what developers have to look at when developing future MMOs
What makes you think it's just the sandbox fans, Cres?
^^this^^
My hypothesis is that no game measures up to the first game a given person really enjoyed.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
It's pretty clear that the "pure" themepark model is dead. Every themepark game in the last 5 years launched with great fanfare and a million+ players, and was forgotten 4-6 months later. Most of them went to F2P to squeeze the last bit of profit out of the games.
Game companies are faced with a tough decision at this point: "Why spend $100M+ and 4-5 years developing an MMO if you can build a really good single-player game (for PC and console) in 3 years with a budget of $50M ? That SPRPG will most likely sell double or triple the boxes at launch than the MMO would, and there's no ongoing hassle with maintaining servers and support staff."
The only way for developers to keep the average MMO'er playing their MMO's for more than 2 months is to start bringing in sandbox elements. It's utterly impossible to churn out reasonable quality content faster than players can consume it. So an MMO that has plenty of meta-games and player-created content will be winner.
GW2's DE's are a step in the right direction. Archeage and Wildstar are bringing back player housing. Even Planetside 2 is considering player-built bases (and that's a MMOFPS !). The future is looking bright
My hypothesis is that no game measures up to the first game a given person really enjoyed.
It's a pretty strong one. We should be seeking the exceptions, and looking for similar properties among the games that changed their minds...
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The future of Sandboxes is not a Sandbox MMO but an hybrid.
Sandbox + Themepark = Archeage
And when I said Archeage, I mean the design, the concept, not the game itself which might be good or bad depending how XL Games implement those feature.
Regardeless of Archeage success, its concept is what developers have to look at when developing future MMOs
Sandboxes brings Longevity and Challenge
Themeparks brings Accessibility and Fun
Mixed them together and you have the perfect MMO
Unfortunately, asian made games (specifically mmorpgs) tend to not do so well in the western market (NA & EU).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Sandbox MMO's (with or without FFA PVP, which imo is just one of possible features) are just a lot more complicated to develop then linear experiences. It is also difficult to make those companies seriously look at other MMO types besides themeparks. There is also no telling if any companies are working at one now. It takes years sometimes for them to make their project public.
If it is a thing of the past? Obviously not. Players love it. How else would a shitty looking game like Minecraft become so immensely popular? If a game becomes popular despite it looks, then it really has something good to offer. Imo it is the freedom in the game that hooks players in Minecraft.
It also shows that you can run big servers with a sandbox experience. Thanks to the modding community that made serverplatforms that support serverside configuring (craftbukkit, spout).
I think or i guess hope now that most major and not so major companies have tried making another wow and have failed they Future companies or developers with migrate to the sandbox hybrid model. Copying success only breeds stagnation and hasnt been lucrative for companies looking for the wow scale of things. Innovation on existing genres seem more beneficial at this junction of the industry.
They are living in the past. It's a totally different landscape now after the internet boom.
The pickup-n-play action mmo has a larger market. It's where the money is. Those that have enough time to play a true mmorpg sandbox are a very small minority, as it has always been. Sandbox gaming will always be niche, as it makes demands on one's time that most don't have.
Makes me sad as a lover of sandbox play, but I get it. It's all about the money. Getting as much as they can.
We are the Themepark crowd. Give up your hopes of a sandbox game. You will assimilate and play our games. Resistance is futile.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
They are living in the past. It's a totally different landscape now after the internet boom.
The pickup-n-play action mmo has a larger market. It's where the money is. Those that have enough time to play a true mmorpg sandbox are a very small minority, as it has always been. Sandbox gaming will always be niche, as it makes demands on one's time that most don't have.
Makes me sad as a lover of sandbox play, but I get it. It's all about the money. Getting as much as they can.
Sorry but I won't settle for the idea that a sandbox can't be easy to pickup and play and have fun with others.
Comments
Yeah, and SWTOR proved that so well. Remember SWTOR? The game that was hyped by so many, even after playing it in Beta? Remember how it was going to show how wrong Sandboxers are?
I will agree that it's a pandemic, though. You got that much right.
Once upon a time....
I like the posts by those who have the external perspective and are basically just spewing: "Yeah, theyre living in the past and there aren't many of them but they talk too much!"
The paradigm may be shifting, be careful where you spit because you may have to sit there soon.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I think classic MMORPG fans wants to continue to play games that they like. They dont want them to evolve into something very different. I think there should be classic games based on exploring and with a virtual world. Games that was popular 10 years ago are still fun today. New games can be like them but with modern graphics and new virtual worlds. Some new features and mechanics can be added. But not in a way that change the basic design or turns them into a new sub genre...
Some people just dont want change. They prefer to play the type of games they like. Or perhaps you could say they want to continue living in the past. Because its fun.
A good game should be a hybrid with some of the best sandbox features but also with some developer created content. Modern themepark players would of course call a game like that a sandbox. And would not recognize it was a hybrid. But I think this is the type of game that needs to be reborn. It can be marketed and advertized as something new and revolutionary...even if it is based on classic MMORPG ideas. Because for most young players it will be something new and different. Like fashion. Things that was popular decades ago often becomes popular again.
How many, many different phrases have been attached after that clause.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
That's actually what most of us Sandboxers want. It's not that it's adding Themepark to the Sandbox, it's that you're making a better Sandbox game. But you can look at it either way, I guess.
The key thing with this is that you have to add Themepark to Sandbox, not the other way around. Because a Themepark game, even with Sandbox elements, is still a Themepark and still suffers from exactly the fixed, directed game play that is worn out now. Although it would make for a better Themepark game, a la GW2 and AA (presumably, time will tell on each).
I think there's room for "quests" in a variety of ways in a Sandbox. UO has added quests over the years, and most of them are not Themeparkish. In fact, UO always had "Boss MOBs" in the sense that the lowest levels of Dungeons had the most powerfull MOBs. It just wasn't driven through quests, and anyone could go there if they could survive the higher levels of the dungeons. Not saying they'd last very long, but they could go there. And friends of higher skills could help them stay alive or resurrect them repeatedly.
I also think there's room for, and IMO a deirable apsect of, "Classes" in a special case sense. I think it would be cool if, as an example, to become a "Paladin" you first have to have a certain subset of skills, then go to a Paladin Headquarters and request admitance where you are given a quest you must complete before you are accepted. That quest can be very Themeparkish, as even most Sandbox games have their static content. A liche Lord, for example, can always respawn (and it doesn't mean it's the same Liche Lord?). Kill the Liche Lord (even with help, after all being a Paladin isn't just about solo strength), gain the Soul Gem, and return it to the Paladins. Gain perks as a Paladin.
Having Alignment actions recorded for the character can add to a game of this nature. If the character has ever killed innocent civilians, that can be recorded on the Character, and the Paladins may never accept this character into their ranks. Likewise, killing an innocent after becoming a Paladin could cause the Character to lose Paladin status, booted from the "guild", and lose all perks.
Once upon a time....
I suspect the business model of sandbox + cash shop = win. (Pay $ for furniture in your player housing!)
On the other hand, it is hard to say how many people really would play such a game. You might only be able to do it in a very popular IP (like Star Wars).
Actually, nope, I don't remember that. Who launched that particularly hyperbolic gem right into your wheelhouse?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Why do that when the game can be better by allowing players to build the furniture and sell it? That's part of what "Sandbox" means.
Once upon a time....
Of course you don't.
Once upon a time....
Sounds like "the Shadowclan" back in the day.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Because, you know, it didn't happen?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The only answer I care about of course.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yup. Makes for a lotta different ideologies among the two main political parties, I suppose.
And mostly, all angry all the time.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
As a Sandbox player I moved on already.
The future of Sandboxes is not a Sandbox MMO but an hybrid.
Sandbox + Themepark = Archeage
And when I said Archeage, I mean the design, the concept, not the game itself which might be good or bad depending how XL Games implement those feature.
Regardeless of Archeage success, its concept is what developers have to look at when developing future MMOs
Sandboxes brings Longevity and Challenge
Themeparks brings Accessibility and Fun
Mixed them together and you have the perfect MMO
^^this^^
My hypothesis is that no game measures up to the first game a given person really enjoyed.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
It's pretty clear that the "pure" themepark model is dead. Every themepark game in the last 5 years launched with great fanfare and a million+ players, and was forgotten 4-6 months later. Most of them went to F2P to squeeze the last bit of profit out of the games.
Game companies are faced with a tough decision at this point: "Why spend $100M+ and 4-5 years developing an MMO if you can build a really good single-player game (for PC and console) in 3 years with a budget of $50M ? That SPRPG will most likely sell double or triple the boxes at launch than the MMO would, and there's no ongoing hassle with maintaining servers and support staff."
The only way for developers to keep the average MMO'er playing their MMO's for more than 2 months is to start bringing in sandbox elements. It's utterly impossible to churn out reasonable quality content faster than players can consume it. So an MMO that has plenty of meta-games and player-created content will be winner.
GW2's DE's are a step in the right direction. Archeage and Wildstar are bringing back player housing. Even Planetside 2 is considering player-built bases (and that's a MMOFPS !). The future is looking bright
It's a pretty strong one. We should be seeking the exceptions, and looking for similar properties among the games that changed their minds...
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Unfortunately, asian made games (specifically mmorpgs) tend to not do so well in the western market (NA & EU).
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Sandbox MMO's (with or without FFA PVP, which imo is just one of possible features) are just a lot more complicated to develop then linear experiences. It is also difficult to make those companies seriously look at other MMO types besides themeparks. There is also no telling if any companies are working at one now. It takes years sometimes for them to make their project public.
If it is a thing of the past? Obviously not. Players love it. How else would a shitty looking game like Minecraft become so immensely popular? If a game becomes popular despite it looks, then it really has something good to offer. Imo it is the freedom in the game that hooks players in Minecraft.
It also shows that you can run big servers with a sandbox experience. Thanks to the modding community that made serverplatforms that support serverside configuring (craftbukkit, spout).
Future companies or developers with migrate to the sandbox hybrid model. Copying success only breeds stagnation and hasnt been lucrative for companies looking for the wow scale of things. Innovation on existing genres seem more beneficial at this junction of the industry.
They are living in the past. It's a totally different landscape now after the internet boom.
The pickup-n-play action mmo has a larger market. It's where the money is. Those that have enough time to play a true mmorpg sandbox are a very small minority, as it has always been. Sandbox gaming will always be niche, as it makes demands on one's time that most don't have.
Makes me sad as a lover of sandbox play, but I get it. It's all about the money. Getting as much as they can.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Sorry but I won't settle for the idea that a sandbox can't be easy to pickup and play and have fun with others.