Crack in the cash shop dream? I believe Nexon begs to differ.
1 occurence does not a pattern make.
They've published accurate and open finanicals about the success and profitiablility of their titles?
Few companies in the industry are as open as NCSoft is in this area, so they tend to be a pretty reliable indicator.
But as you said, maybe Aion just sucks in most people's eyes.
Funcom is a publicly traded company so their financials are open.
EA is as well and they have a few F2P along with SOE.
F2P is where the money is right now. Whether that appeals to someone is another issue, that's where companies make more money over the traditional B2P, P2P etc.
Well, I was specifically asking if Nexon published opened financials, and while the other two examples you mention public companies, unlike NCSoft which really does a good job reporting results game by game, those other two tend to provide "combined" results which makes it challenging to discern what each titles contribution to the bottom line is.
F2P is certainly "where it is at right now", but don't be surprised when it doesn't turn out to be the big money maker many hope to.
How it is implemented plays a big part of the success of the title and its ablity to bring in money. Some will be better than others.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Those are some good reports, (thanks for looking them up) I like the game by game sales breakdown, didn't have time to see if they reported on profitability for each, but might be all about the same.
One interesting comment was that the model isn't workiing as well in North America, as evidenced by this quote
"Revenue in North America was ¥1.39 billion, a decrease of 19% from the first quarter of 2011. On a constant currency basis, revenue declined 15%.
Clearly it was a challenging quarter in North America. Our team there has been working hard to get the business back on an upward trajectory after the hacking attack and stability issues that we experienced in late Q4.
Our focus has been on aggressively addressing the security issues and stabilizing the server environments. As this work is being done, we plan to spend more again on customer acquisition marketing and refocus on our growth strategies in this expanding market.
Fundamentally, North America is a region with great opportunities for Nexon and we intend to continue to invest to build our presence in this growing market."
We know the F2P model has been very successful offshore, but that doesn't translate to different markets where tastes apparently vary.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
NCSoft sees Aion suffer a drastic decrease in cash shop sales.
Considering how jaundiced the information we are fed about cash shop revenue models by the industry (I won't go into my theory of why we are fed such a one sided story, that's for another thread), we are forced to seize on small pieces of information as indicators. This is the first such indicator, one that says that maybe the cash shop model is not as fail safe as the majority once thought, despite being sold to us as the 'inevitable' and 'unstoppable' future.
Now, we cannot know anything for sure because the industry is so full of BS and spin but It seems, in the mid to long term, that cash shop is maybe not the magic bullet for 'failed' games many have evangalised.
Maybe an industry more intent on selling us a revenue model then designing great games needs to have a think on their priorities.
Game first.
Thoughts on this early morning thought bubble.
Or maybe Aion was a failing game that they tried to save by changing the business model, still ignoring the other much more important issues - a much more likely possibility than an industry wide global consipracy to make people switch to a difference payment system.
"This is the first such indicator, one that says that maybe the cash shop model is not as fail safe as the majority once thought, despite being sold to us as the 'inevitable' and 'unstoppable' future."
Can you link to any page by a poster, gamer, publisher or developer that ever claimed F2P was a guaranteed system or that it would save a game despite its flaws*?
*Fail Safe isn't the term you were looking for, so I had to take a stab as what you meant there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Every now and then I look at the scale of these numbers and feel completely overwhelmed by how much money is flowing around this industry and how infinitismally small and insignificant my opinions really are.
Every now and then I look at the scale of these numbers and feel completely overwhelmed by how much money is flowing around this industry and how infinitismally small and insignificant my opinions really are.
Any single voice is small. Collectively, and especially combined with action, voices can be quite powerful.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"maybe the cash shop model is not as fail safe as the majority once thought"
"It seems, in the mid to long term, that cash shop is maybe not the magic bullet for 'failed' games many have evangalised."
Who is your "majority" who call cash shops a "fail safe" "magic bullet"? I have never heard that before. This seems to be a straw man argument. You also seem to be arguing by corollary that Aion would be doing better with a subscription. What evidence do you have of that? Your post is also full of "poisoning the well" logical fallacies.
The game might be doing poorly because it is an unpopular game, regardless of the payment method. To extrapolate that this is an indication that F2P models don't work is a bit of a stretch. I could make a similar argument about the relative failures of recent P2P games like SWTOR and conclude that P2P is obviously a failed payment model.
Non sequitur was the big one. He did say it was an early morning 'thought' so I put it down to lack of coffee. Try telling Zynga their are cracks in there cash shop dream.
Originally posted by Teh_Axi Aion was a massive failure, the cash shop no doubt stemmed those losses as much as it would be possible. It will probably still take them more time to recoup the total losses of that project.
It's a superior model for customers and developers alike.
A bad game is still a bad game. A F2P payment system will raise a bad game's revenue, but it's not going to make the game better.
Meanwhile the true F2P money is made by amazingly high-quality games like TF2, Tribes Ascend, League of Legends, and (shortly) Smite.
That's because F2P makes money after the player has experienced the game. So high-quality games profit greatly, and low-quality ones...well they eek out a weak existence.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This is the first such indicator, one that says that maybe the cash shop model is not as fail safe as the majority once thought, despite being sold to us as the 'inevitable' and 'unstoppable' future.
Now, we cannot know anything for sure because the industry is so full of BS and spin but It seems, in the mid to long term, that cash shop is maybe not the magic bullet for 'failed' games many have evangalised.
Thoughts on this early morning thought bubble?
Sniped to save space.
Who is this "majority"?
How is this the "first indicator" seeing as how long cash shops have been around?
The "industry" is full of BS and spin? Well, players and forum posters are part of the industry I guess...
"failed" games are not F2P games and almost EVERY single time have shops completely LACKING in sellable cash shop items...
Serioulsy, look at AoC by Funcom...when it went lol@F2P they had the games last expac up for sale in the shop for ***$75***
Yes...$75 in their shop yet when it was actually released in the STORE...with a DISK...in a BOX that had to be SHIPPED it was $49.99.
If you take the sales from Atlantica Online or Runes of Magic it will be HIGHER than what almost all paytrap games make combined...and you can SEE it by looking at the COMPANIES earnings reports. Hell, one of those companies makes NOTHING BUT F2P games yet is posting profits higher than most gaming companies.
nah. The real reason why games such as atlantica online or runes of magic is mroe profitable is because it's published in asia. And typically asians have no control on spending an enourmous amount of money to buy power in mmorpg.
Just more vindication that this whole "f2p is the future" is a load of tosh. Like many of us have said, the issue is the economy, not the payment model.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Is there anyone who actually believes that F2P is the future?
Most people who say that are fanboys of a dead / failed f2p game, they HAVE to say that, see SWTOR.
It's funny to read things like "F2P generate more profit than when they where P2P"
Breaking news, a horrible and failed game with 100k subs (and an 9 rating on MMORPG.COM) generates more revenue as F2P!!
A game with 400k+ subs will always bring more revenue than a F2P ON THE WEST, the problem is most games are so bad that they don't have 400k subs 3 month after launch.
"Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them's making a poop, the other one's carrying it for him, who would you assume is in charge."
"The idea behind the tuxedo is the woman's point of view that men are all the same; so we might as well dress them that way. That's why a wedding is like the joining together of a beautiful, glowing bride and some guy" -Seinfeld
Meanwhile the true F2P money is made by amazingly high-quality games like TF2, Tribes Ascend, League of Legends, and (shortly) Smite.
But none of those are MMORPGs.
F2P games are big in asia, in the west, it's where bad games go to die, MMORPG wise.
LOTRO is a whole different case, it had to go F2P because most of it's subscribers where lifetimers, the real subscribers left the game bored to death like in every other wow clone.
"Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them's making a poop, the other one's carrying it for him, who would you assume is in charge."
"The idea behind the tuxedo is the woman's point of view that men are all the same; so we might as well dress them that way. That's why a wedding is like the joining together of a beautiful, glowing bride and some guy" -Seinfeld
With this many games out, do you think it's acutally easy to get 400k sub? or even 100k sub? how many games actually have 400k sub, or even 300, or even 200?
The main problem is there's too many games out. Every game is trying to steal people from another game.
"This is the first such indicator, one that says that maybe the cash shop model is not as fail safe as the majority once thought, despite being sold to us as the 'inevitable' and 'unstoppable' future."
Can you link to any page by a poster, gamer, publisher or developer that ever claimed F2P was a guaranteed system or that it would save a game despite its flaws*?
not saying Smed is right,
but Smed claimed last year that SWTOR will be the last "large scale" mmo that will use a sub
In my opinion (SWTOR) is going to be the last large scale MMO to use the traditional subscription business model. Why do I think that? Simply put, the world is moving on from this model and over time people aren't going to accept this method. I'm sure I'm going to hear a lot about this statement. But I am positive I'm right.
F2P games are big in asia, in the west, it's where bad games go to die, MMORPG wise.
LOTRO is a whole different case, it had to go F2P because most of it's subscribers where lifetimers, the real subscribers left the game bored to death like in every other wow clone.
Has nothing to do with being a MMORPG though. A AAA MMORPG designed from the ground up to be F2P would be incredibly successful. MMORPGs which made the switch have been successful too.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yes and yes. I also expect SWTOR will have a very shot lived hype with F2P, if any at all. The F2P-shop model IS mostly a loser model, a model to keep dying games alive a bit longer, with a handful exceptions. The F2P model was a half assed method to keep dying MMO alife in a MMO market with WAY too many MMOs, most of them cheap crap.
But this is only part of a bigger picture. What we see is the MMO bubble ready to burst. Like with any bubble, the MMO market was FLOODED with MMOs, some expensive, many of them cheap, almost all of them WOW clones of a variant. Like in the housing bubble, every company had the illusion to get rich quick and easy.
The MMO bubble will probably burst during 2013, and a huge MMO dying will be the result, blame it on the years and years people trying to copy WOW and make quick bucks with nothing. It just trickles down now. P2P crashes, then F2P crashes, then the entire toxic MMO market.
People will weep and grind their teeth.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
Well, I was specifically asking if Nexon published opened financials, and while the other two examples you mention public companies, unlike NCSoft which really does a good job reporting results game by game, those other two tend to provide "combined" results which makes it challenging to discern what each titles contribution to the bottom line is.
F2P is certainly "where it is at right now", but don't be surprised when it doesn't turn out to be the big money maker many hope to.
How it is implemented plays a big part of the success of the title and its ablity to bring in money. Some will be better than others.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Those are some good reports, (thanks for looking them up) I like the game by game sales breakdown, didn't have time to see if they reported on profitability for each, but might be all about the same.
One interesting comment was that the model isn't workiing as well in North America, as evidenced by this quote
"Revenue in North America was ¥1.39 billion, a decrease of 19% from the first quarter of 2011. On a constant currency basis, revenue declined 15%.
Clearly it was a challenging quarter in North America. Our team there has been working hard to get the business back on an upward trajectory after the hacking attack and stability issues that we experienced in late Q4.
Our focus has been on aggressively addressing the security issues and stabilizing the server environments. As this work is being done, we plan to spend more again on customer acquisition marketing and refocus on our growth strategies in this expanding market.
Fundamentally, North America is a region with great opportunities for Nexon and we intend to continue to invest to build our presence in this growing market."
We know the F2P model has been very successful offshore, but that doesn't translate to different markets where tastes apparently vary.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Or maybe Aion was a failing game that they tried to save by changing the business model, still ignoring the other much more important issues - a much more likely possibility than an industry wide global consipracy to make people switch to a difference payment system.
"This is the first such indicator, one that says that maybe the cash shop model is not as fail safe as the majority once thought, despite being sold to us as the 'inevitable' and 'unstoppable' future."
Can you link to any page by a poster, gamer, publisher or developer that ever claimed F2P was a guaranteed system or that it would save a game despite its flaws*?
*Fail Safe isn't the term you were looking for, so I had to take a stab as what you meant there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
My theme song.
Every now and then I look at the scale of these numbers and feel completely overwhelmed by how much money is flowing around this industry and how infinitismally small and insignificant my opinions really are.
Any single voice is small. Collectively, and especially combined with action, voices can be quite powerful.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Non sequitur was the big one. He did say it was an early morning 'thought' so I put it down to lack of coffee. Try telling Zynga their are cracks in there cash shop dream.
Lol what? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aion:_The_Tower_of_Eternity#Sales_and_revenue
I think that it is not a big problem to NC, the main market of their games is in east, and in eastern contries all their games are P2P.
Western market are just leftovers for NCSoft.
Yes. That does not make a nice controversial thread title though.
F2P isn't a magic bullet for failed games.
It's a superior model for customers and developers alike.
A bad game is still a bad game. A F2P payment system will raise a bad game's revenue, but it's not going to make the game better.
Meanwhile the true F2P money is made by amazingly high-quality games like TF2, Tribes Ascend, League of Legends, and (shortly) Smite.
That's because F2P makes money after the player has experienced the game. So high-quality games profit greatly, and low-quality ones...well they eek out a weak existence.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sniped to save space.
Who is this "majority"?
How is this the "first indicator" seeing as how long cash shops have been around?
The "industry" is full of BS and spin? Well, players and forum posters are part of the industry I guess...
"failed" games are not F2P games and almost EVERY single time have shops completely LACKING in sellable cash shop items...
Serioulsy, look at AoC by Funcom...when it went lol@F2P they had the games last expac up for sale in the shop for ***$75***
Yes...$75 in their shop yet when it was actually released in the STORE...with a DISK...in a BOX that had to be SHIPPED it was $49.99.
If you take the sales from Atlantica Online or Runes of Magic it will be HIGHER than what almost all paytrap games make combined...and you can SEE it by looking at the COMPANIES earnings reports. Hell, one of those companies makes NOTHING BUT F2P games yet is posting profits higher than most gaming companies.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Is there anyone who actually believes that F2P is the future?
Most people who say that are fanboys of a dead / failed f2p game, they HAVE to say that, see SWTOR.
It's funny to read things like "F2P generate more profit than when they where P2P"
Breaking news, a horrible and failed game with 100k subs (and an 9 rating on MMORPG.COM) generates more revenue as F2P!!
A game with 400k+ subs will always bring more revenue than a F2P ON THE WEST, the problem is most games are so bad that they don't have 400k subs 3 month after launch.
"Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them's making a poop, the other one's carrying it for him, who would you assume is in charge."
"The idea behind the tuxedo is the woman's point of view that men are all the same; so we might as well dress them that way. That's why a wedding is like the joining together of a beautiful, glowing bride and some guy"
-Seinfeld
But none of those are MMORPGs.
F2P games are big in asia, in the west, it's where bad games go to die, MMORPG wise.
LOTRO is a whole different case, it had to go F2P because most of it's subscribers where lifetimers, the real subscribers left the game bored to death like in every other wow clone.
"Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them's making a poop, the other one's carrying it for him, who would you assume is in charge."
"The idea behind the tuxedo is the woman's point of view that men are all the same; so we might as well dress them that way. That's why a wedding is like the joining together of a beautiful, glowing bride and some guy"
-Seinfeld
With this many games out, do you think it's acutally easy to get 400k sub? or even 100k sub? how many games actually have 400k sub, or even 300, or even 200?
The main problem is there's too many games out. Every game is trying to steal people from another game.
not saying Smed is right,
but Smed claimed last year that SWTOR will be the last "large scale" mmo that will use a sub
(this was before TOR tanked)
The Free Future, Sept 2011
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-09-19-the-free-future-editorial
In my opinion (SWTOR) is going to be the last large scale MMO to use the traditional subscription business model. Why do I think that? Simply put, the world is moving on from this model and over time people aren't going to accept this method. I'm sure I'm going to hear a lot about this statement. But I am positive I'm right.
EQ2 fan sites
As a rule of thumb never believe anything you hear from an MMO develper. Ever.
They lie worse than politicians.
Has nothing to do with being a MMORPG though. A AAA MMORPG designed from the ground up to be F2P would be incredibly successful. MMORPGs which made the switch have been successful too.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yes and yes. I also expect SWTOR will have a very shot lived hype with F2P, if any at all. The F2P-shop model IS mostly a loser model, a model to keep dying games alive a bit longer, with a handful exceptions. The F2P model was a half assed method to keep dying MMO alife in a MMO market with WAY too many MMOs, most of them cheap crap.
But this is only part of a bigger picture. What we see is the MMO bubble ready to burst. Like with any bubble, the MMO market was FLOODED with MMOs, some expensive, many of them cheap, almost all of them WOW clones of a variant. Like in the housing bubble, every company had the illusion to get rich quick and easy.
The MMO bubble will probably burst during 2013, and a huge MMO dying will be the result, blame it on the years and years people trying to copy WOW and make quick bucks with nothing. It just trickles down now. P2P crashes, then F2P crashes, then the entire toxic MMO market.
People will weep and grind their teeth.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Given the same game, it is obvious why the F2P model is better for consumers.
- you get a large part, if not all, of the game FREE.
- you have a choice of how much, if any, to spend.
- there is NO commitment, you can hop as many F2P games as you like.
I prob will never play a sub MMO again after my WOW annual pass is up. In fact, i think even WOW will go F2P in a year or 2.
Kind of expected ..
When new player content wanes .. so does CS sales.
Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.