Originally posted by Draemos Originally posted by ZylaxxOriginally posted by DraemosOriginally posted by ZylaxxWhile some detractors attempt to use this fact as a criticism of something Guild Wars 2 is lacking, the truth is that its actually one of the games strengths.Lets start by dispelling the myth of raiding as the ultimate in PvE endgame content. I enjoyed raiding in other MMOs for a number of years, but that doesnt change the fact that its designed to force players to spend their time on repetitive, scripted tasks purely for the sake of advancing to the next tier of repetitive, scripted tasks. Because of their static nature, and because they rely on the holy trinity of dedicated tanks, healers and damage dealers, raid boss encounters are like a puzzle, but its a puzzle you only need to solve once. Where does the tank stand? How many healers do you need? Can the DPS stay out of fire? Once you solve the puzzle, or have it solved for you by reading a kill strategy step by step, its really little challenge to repeat it over and over again.And you WILL need to repeat it over and over again. Subscription MMOs need to keep you coming back to do the same thing week after week, long after the novelty has worn off, and the only way to incentivize the experience is to gate the rate at which everyone acquires gear. Thats why gear is randomized when it drops and why not everyone who participated gets a reward. Thats why content has weekly lockouts, preventing you from running it over and over again as much as youd like. Similar to a Las Vegas slot machine, raiding is designed to give you a gamblers high every so often so youll keep chasing that high night after night. The time you sink into raiding can really start to add up for adults with college courses, full-time jobs and families. Having to put your social life on hold, or to sacrifice time spent on other hobbies or with friends and family just to chase pixels with better stats, shouldnt be considered the ultimate endgame experience.Thankfully, Guild Wars 2 doesnt have raiding. What it does have are other forms of large-scale, cooperative content that are far more dynamic, and far less monopolizing of your time, than raiding. The best part about all of this content is that you can participate and compete in every bit of it on a level playing field, without the barrier to entry of gear grinds, regardless of how much time you have to play.
While I'm not a big fan of raiding, I have yet to see anything GW2 has that will prolong the interest of it's PvE community. It's PvP is adequate endgame, but I have very little doubt that you're going to hear a lot of complaining from the PvE community.So no, it's not a strength. It would be a strength if they implemented a meaningful alternative, but right now theres nothing to fill the gap adequately..As a hardcore PvE player I disagree. Raiding does not equate endgame, in fact it narrowly defines it. GW2 has oodles of endgame for the PvE'er.From Legendary building, to map completion, to the Orr zone, to the 1500+ Dynamic events spread about a VERY large map. Im sorry if you dont see it, and sure this wont please the raiding community but seeing as the raiding community is around 10% of the playerbase of a given MMO then its not a bad thing.Guild Wars 2 End Game (7.12.12.) Q&A Part 1Guild Wars 2 End Game (7.12.12.) Q&A Part 2Did you actually watch those videos? There is almost nothing to them. You have some skill point grinds for items, dynamic events that by the large are just the same mechanics playing themselves over and over again w/ slight twists, and some skill and puzzles challenges.
The dynamic events will be neat the first couple months, but after that it will be routine and boring. The skill challenges might be fun for the same people that dig the achievement stuff. And then you have the small party dungeons (which are actually a favorite thing of mine personally). That's pretty much it.
If you aren't a PvP player, your going to be disappointed after a couple months. You'll get your money's worth out of the game, but don't expect this to be something that going to entertain you for years based off it's PvE merit.
Speaking from personal experience but GW1 kept my attention for nearly a year. It did have regular expansion but nonetheless it was all PvE for me basically. Was a very nice game and from my time spent on the BWE gw2's PvE has been ever more intense.
The PVE in GW2 is mediocre and will not hold the PVE crowd long term. This is painfully obvious to anyone who isnt drunk on the GW2 kool-aid. Good thing for GW2 is there are no good PVE centric MMO's coming anytime soon anyways so they have awhile to change their minds on adding raids.
This game is all about the PVP which is quite good but still needs to add and change a few things in order to be great (pvp ladders, rankings and the titles to go with it, and to remove the generic pvp names garbage). But when Planetside 2 drops it wont matter anyways because thats gonna be the next monster E-Sport game not GW2.
lol. You know they do complex psychological studies on the personality types of people who PvP heavily versus those that PvE heavily:
In contrast to this, players who reported playing World of Warcraft for the joy of competition [PvP] scored high in dominance, leadership, masculinity and narcissism, and low in tolerance and femininity. ... it appears that PvP players are generally more domineering and willing to take charge, more confident in their own abilities, more willing to take risks and possessed of a strong desire to control others around them. Further, PvP players are less likely to be tolerant of mistakes made by other players and more likely to take action without first considering consequences.
Of course, they have to be 'nice' and 'professional' when they describe these characteristics of the populations. But it doesn't take a 'rocket surgeon' to translate those characteristics into the more perjortive state average gamer experiences them...
So, if the 'hardcore' PvPers leave for Planetside 2... Honestly, I won't shed a tear. This game doesn't need subs and the vast bulk of the PvE players don't need their characters constantly nerfed/twinked because a bunch of PvPers cry and whine on the forums all day because they think all classes should be 'balanced' as if that was an immutable law of gaming.
Originally posted by jpnz Originally posted by MosesZD
Sounds like you've bought into the raiding myth. Raiding is not the huge end game of even the King of Raiding Games --- WoW. Nor is it PvP. Between the raiders and PvPers, you've got about 20% or so of the population (unless you're talking niche MMOs).What does the other 80% do?/snipThis post is factually false.
WoW's Wrath raiding had over 50% of the playerbase playing it.
It was something Blizzard was very vocal about.
WIth the LFR system in Cata, I'd imagine that number went UP.
I don't get why not putting in a game mechanic can be a 'good' thing.
Give players choices and let them choose what they want to do.
It's not a myth, it's just old information. Blizzard's changes to the Raid systems increased the number of people participating. I would think that in Rift and other games that aren't WoW, the percentage of people raiding is much lower. Unlike WoW, in those games when people aren't raiding, they aren't playing.
I can live without Raids in GW2. There will need to be some sort of something to do, in addition to the PvP to keep people in the game though. If you have a good percentage of the population logging in every day doing something, it'll keep their friends in, and their friends' friends in, and so on. I think that's how WoW has worked all these years. The grabbed a core group, and that core group grabbed their friends, and their friends' friends.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Sounds like you've bought into the raiding myth. Raiding is not the huge end game of even the King of Raiding Games --- WoW. Nor is it PvP. Between the raiders and PvPers, you've got about 20% or so of the population (unless you're talking niche MMOs).
What does the other 80% do?
/snip
This post is factually false.
WoW's Wrath raiding had over 50% of the playerbase playing it.
It was something Blizzard was very vocal about.
WIth the LFR system in Cata, I'd imagine that number went UP.
I don't get why not putting in a game mechanic can be a 'good' thing.
Give players choices and let them choose what they want to do.
I guess you need to take it up with Blizzard then. They're the ones who publish the data on their raiding and their PvP.
You have a 10% hardcore raiding base. You've got a 10% hardcore PvP base. All the rest is casual cross-over which I mentioned in the 'other 80%'
Denying a certain type of content to players is a TERRIBLE thing.
There are very few times when this isn't true. Not having raids ultimately denies players 1 more thing to do.
Don't get me wrong, it doesn't nessisarily need it, but your arguement is basically "I don't like it so its great" which is like having a candy store and not selling any chocolate because you don't like it. Sure you still got a candy store and you aren't missing out on it, but a lot of other people are.
It creeps me how some of the "anti-raid crowd" obviously and viciously enjoy how traditional raiders are "left out" from gw2, but not because they actually get to enjoy all the content but rather by the simple fact the raider community gets to "suffer"
Funny, but we don't go to WoW forums and demand they take raiding out... Or claim the MMO is a failure because it has that horrible, hamster-wheel, casino-like gear-grind... But I do see them complaining and demandiing buffs for this, that and the other thing while others attack them and the PvPers chime in on how it will destroy their precious PvP 'balance.'
As far as the acerbic reactions go, they are more in a response to the hard-core raiders making an unsupported argument that without their particual gaming fetish being the primary 'end game' occupation the game will fail. PvPers, btw, make the same truth claim about PvP. And it is clearl that both of these mutually exclusive truth-claims can't be right. Which then allows those who aren't emotionally invested to understand that both are, by-and-large, false and over-stated claims.
And that's what so many of us get tired of... Over-arching, aggressive proclimations that there is something wrong because their narrow interested aren't catered. For SOME gamers, lack of the traditional, reward-gated, once-a-week raid will be an issue that they MAY not be able to over-come. But it will be a MINORITY since, as a group, they're already a minority.
OTOH, there is a significant majority of gamers (comprised of many significant minorities in game play) that have been taken for granted for a very long time and that is finally getting some respect and attention. When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with solid exploration released? When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with stories you can actually influence the story (not control, but some influence on path) was released? When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with puzzles and what-not released?
And those people are happy. Yet here come the PvPers and the Raiders to constantly crap on their parade.
So you tell me, why not a little schadenfreude? Is it really so bad to laugh at the people who have been ****ing on the parade of those who are FINALLY getting their needs even half-way addressed in a AAA MMO now that the tables have turned a bit? I, personally, don't think so.
It creeps me how some of the "anti-raid crowd" obviously and viciously enjoy how traditional raiders are "left out" from gw2, but not because they actually get to enjoy all the content but rather by the simple fact the raider community gets to "suffer"
Funny, but we don't go to WoW forums and demand they take raiding out... Or claim the MMO is a failure because it has that horrible, hamster-wheel, casino-like gear-grind... But I do see them complaining and demandiing buffs for this, that and the other thing while others attack them and the PvPers chime in on how it will destroy their precious PvP 'balance.'
As far as the acerbic reactions go, they are more in a response to the hard-core raiders making an unsupported argument that without their particual gaming fetish being the primary 'end game' occupation the game will fail. PvPers, btw, make the same truth claim about PvP. And it is clearl that both of these mutually exclusive truth-claims can't be right. Which then allows those who aren't emotionally invested to understand that both are, by-and-large, false and over-stated claims.
And that's what so many of us get tired of... Over-arching, aggressive proclimations that there is something wrong because their narrow interested aren't catered. For SOME gamers, lack of the traditional, reward-gated, once-a-week raid will be an issue that they MAY not be able to over-come. But it will be a MINORITY since, as a group, they're already a minority.
OTOH, there is a significant majority of gamers (comprised of many significant minorities in game play) that have been taken for granted for a very long time and that is finally getting some respect and attention. When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with solid exploration released? When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with stories you can actually influence the story (not control, but some influence on path) was released? When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with puzzles and what-not released?
And those people are happy. Yet here come the PvPers and the Raiders to constantly crap on their parade.
So you tell me, why not a little schadenfreude? Is it really so bad to laugh at the people who have been ****ing on the parade of those who are FINALLY getting their needs even half-way addressed in a AAA MMO now that the tables have turned a bit? I, personally, don't think so.
Wow... I think you may need a few minutes to gather yourself. All this post did was confirm that YOU don't want raids because you're bitter and angry.
Losing a cornerstone of good PvE is unlikely to be 'a great thing'. But if the content the OP mentions is as good as he recons then I can see his point. I applaud GW2 for trying something new, but it is perfectly reasonable for posters to be sceptical that this content will be as good as raids. I wonder could we have some videos to show us how good this end game group content is?
Lets just give GW2 a try, and see what the hell happens.
Those that wants RAIDS don't try GW2, they told you Loud and Clear, there is no raids here.
Those that don't mind that GW2 dont' have raids, Welcome, in 11 days, you have head start.
Those that still can't decide, wait till its released, watch videos, read forum posts, then make your decision. Nothing right now can help you change your mind. All that could have been said has been said.
There is no subscriptions, so when you buy the game, you own it, its yours to play whenever you want, so buy at your own risk. Its your money, you determine how you spend it.
To all those that said No Raid = death, well , in 11 days we will see, if GW2 gets very popular, and have millions of players, then maybe we will see you in game, or maybe we won't, not like anyone will be giving you a parade if you do decide to try GW2. But we will thank you for spending the money to support ANET.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I remember FF XIV fanbois explaining why not having jumping is the best thing and SWTOR fanbois trying to convince everybody that not having swimming and day/night cycle are actually great improvements Carry on
Originally posted by 1carcarah1 Did other mmo's pve sucked that much before WoW, raids and gear grind?
Nope, EQ1 > WoW everyday of the week.
Raids where way more fun in EQ1 then in WoW.
Gear grind in EQ1 was masked pretty well until the PoP expansion then it became priority but before that it was normally to be wearing a piece of gear for 5+ levels or more.
Lets just give GW2 a try, and see what the hell happens.
Those that wants RAIDS don't try GW2, they told you Loud and Clear, there is no raids here.
Those that don't mind that GW2 dont' have raids, Welcome, in 11 days, you have head start.
Those that still can't decide, wait till its released, watch videos, read forum posts, then make your decision. Nothing right now can help you change your mind. All that could have been said has been said.
There is no subscriptions, so when you buy the game, you own it, its yours to play whenever you want, so buy at your own risk. Its your money, you determine how you spend it.
To all those that said No Raid = death, well , in 11 days we will see, if GW2 gets very popular, and have millions of players, then maybe we will see you in game, or maybe we won't, not like anyone will be giving you a parade if you do decide to try GW2. But we will thank you for spending the money to support ANET.
It has raids just not the "Normal" raids. There will be content that requires more then a single group to beat which is a "Raid".
Any content that takes more then a group to beat is a "Raid". That is reality but most do not think that way, most do not have an open mind.
So will Guild Wars 2 have raid zones like other MMOs? No. Will it have raid content? Yes. WvWvW will be raid content as well as it will take more then a single group to capture and hold keeps.
Originally posted by 1carcarah1 Did other mmo's pve sucked that much before WoW, raids and gear grind?
Nope, EQ1 > WoW everyday of the week.
Raids where way more fun in EQ1 then in WoW.
Gear grind in EQ1 was masked pretty well until the PoP expansion then it became priority but before that it was normally to be wearing a piece of gear for 5+ levels or more.
I miss those days where collecting gear is NOT the whole point of playing. Back then you would wear a piece of gear for 5-10 levels there's no such bullshit as gearscore and item level. You would upgrade your equipment maybe once or twice per month and that's considered plenty. Games back then were truly fun. Personally I'm glad they eschew the idea of a private raid dungeons for a more social and public experience such as defeating a public raid boss. Everyone who participated gets rewarded with something.
Lets just give GW2 a try, and see what the hell happens.
Those that wants RAIDS don't try GW2, they told you Loud and Clear, there is no raids here.
Those that don't mind that GW2 dont' have raids, Welcome, in 11 days, you have head start.
Those that still can't decide, wait till its released, watch videos, read forum posts, then make your decision. Nothing right now can help you change your mind. All that could have been said has been said.
There is no subscriptions, so when you buy the game, you own it, its yours to play whenever you want, so buy at your own risk. Its your money, you determine how you spend it.
To all those that said No Raid = death, well , in 11 days we will see, if GW2 gets very popular, and have millions of players, then maybe we will see you in game, or maybe we won't, not like anyone will be giving you a parade if you do decide to try GW2. But we will thank you for spending the money to support ANET.
It has raids just not the "Normal" raids. There will be content that requires more then a single group to beat which is a "Raid".
Any content that takes more then a group to beat is a "Raid". That is reality but most do not think that way, most do not have an open mind.
So will Guild Wars 2 have raid zones like other MMOs? No. Will it have raid content? Yes. WvWvW will be raid content as well as it will take more then a single group to capture and hold keeps.
Its just semantics.
If i enjoy GW2 and I find it fun ( which from my BWE experience I DO) Then GW2 is a game for me.
If I don't enjoy GW2 then I won't be playing it much, regardless of if it has Raids or Not.
LOTRO, WOW, EQ, EQ2 all these have raids, but I am not playing them, because I don't find the game itself fun for me.
In General, regardless of whether a game has raids or not, it all depends on whether or not people find what they want in the game itself. If you find that one " IT" that you want, you will play GW2, if you don't find the " IT" then you won't enjoy it even if it has Raids, most likely you won't even touch the raids if you didn't like the game.
Unless there are people that don't care if they enjoy the game or not, or whether or not its fun for them and only play if there are Raids in them, then these people are beyond my abilities.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I'm still quite leery what I'm going to do in GW2 once I hit 80. Seriously how many different ways can I kill mob X to make the game fun and fresh? I highly doubt its going to take more than a week or two to hit 80. So what is left for me to do? PvP WvW? Sounds like having raids to participate in would at least add something else, no?
Please oh please don't give me there are other classes to test out and play their story lines (TOR went that route and made a mess).
Originally posted by Purutzil Denying a certain type of content to players is a TERRIBLE thing.
There are very few times when this isn't true. Not having raids ultimately denies players 1 more thing to do.
Don't get me wrong, it doesn't nessisarily need it, but your arguement is basically "I don't like it so its great" which is like having a candy store and not selling any chocolate because you don't like it. Sure you still got a candy store and you aren't missing out on it, but a lot of other people are.
There's nothing wrong with the OP's opinion, because it's an opinion. They don't like raids and everything that comes with them. GW2 doesn't have raids, so that's great in their book. I agree. I can understand why raids can be fun for some people, but I don't enjoy them. Unless a company has unlimited resources, the effort that gets put into raids takes away from the effort put into everything else in the game. Since I prefer everything else in the game to raids, I agree with Anet's approach to designing their game.
That doesn't mean I'm going to look at a raider and laugh, but I'm not going to feel sorry for them either. Raiders aren't being shown raids that they aren't allowed to enter, the raids just don't exist in the first place. I would think the thing to do would be to play something that does have raids, not complain about the one game that doesn't have raids.
** edit ** To clarify, the OP's post was written by someone on another forum, they don't reference raiders at all, though they do present their opinions as facts, or at least arguments supporting their theory. Namely, that GW2's lack of raids is a good thing.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm still quite leery what I'm going to do in GW2 once I hit 80. Seriously how many different ways can I kill mob X to make the game fun and fresh? I highly doubt its going to take more than a week or two to hit 80. So what is left for me to do? PvP WvW? Sounds like having raids to participate in would at least add something else, no?
Please oh please don't give me there are other classes to test out and play their story lines (TOR went that route and made a mess).
You should explore, farm achievments and cosmetic stuff. Or try some insane jumping puzzles
How is a metaevent like the Shatterer not considered a raid? If you want to take down big mofos in GW2, you can. Orr will probably have a butt load of em.
I'm still quite leery what I'm going to do in GW2 once I hit 80. Seriously how many different ways can I kill mob X to make the game fun and fresh? I highly doubt its going to take more than a week or two to hit 80. So what is left for me to do? PvP WvW? Sounds like having raids to participate in would at least add something else, no?
Please oh please don't give me there are other classes to test out and play their story lines (TOR went that route and made a mess).
Never had an issue in GW1 of finding things to do. I then played AoC and really the only "end game" things to do was raid for gear or PvP it felt very limited. Which I found strange from a company that made AO but that was an older game that went more by the older philosophy. To be honest AO has many cool encounters that very few people did and even then they weren't done very often.
What is a raid anyway? A dungeon with gear progression to do over and over again. There is a social aspect to it which can be fun but seems to get more and more political over time as the previous raids gear is needed for the new raid. DKP comes into play, don't miss a day, don't screw up once, .... To me it turns into a job not a game.
It really seems like there are two things that GW2 lacks for the "hardcore" raiders - 1. gear progression 2. instanced dungeons that require a large group. ( An optional 3 - the holy trinity)
Gear progress is a Skinners Box it really doesn't really supply a lot of fun.
This leaves us with large group instanced dungeons. They can be fun but are they really necessary for an MMO. For GW2 they are saying no but, as has been said, there are open world encounters that scratch some of this itch.
Originally posted by rpg123 How is a metaevent like the Shatterer not considered a raid? If you want to take down big mofos in GW2, you can. Orr will probably have a butt load of em.
I kinda considered killing those humongous creatures with as many people as you wanted as well as "raiding". I guess nobody else but us see it as raiding. But they apparently refer to the older genre's raiding type.
Anyway, it appears that not having raids in GW2(as the OP stated) isn't such a great thing since there's a pretty big discussion here. Who knows what may be implemented in the future, adding raids in the game couldn't hurt anyone and it would please the raiding-group. But in all honesty... won't you have enough of other stuff to do in GW2 (for a while) without the old raiding system?
Originally posted by 1carcarah1 Did other mmo's pve sucked that much before WoW, raids and gear grind?
Nope, EQ1 > WoW everyday of the week.
Raids where way more fun in EQ1 then in WoW.
Gear grind in EQ1 was masked pretty well until the PoP expansion then it became priority but before that it was normally to be wearing a piece of gear for 5+ levels or more.
I miss those days where collecting gear is NOT the whole point of playing. Back then you would wear a piece of gear for 5-10 levels there's no such bullshit as gearscore and item level. You would upgrade your equipment maybe once or twice per month and that's considered plenty. Games back then were truly fun. Personally I'm glad they eschew the idea of a private raid dungeons for a more social and public experience such as defeating a public raid boss. Everyone who participated gets rewarded with something.
Yes I miss those days too. My Necromancer got a ring at lvl 50 that I still had equiped at lvl 80 when I left the game. I miss games like that. That ring had meaning, I can tell you the story of how I got it to this day and I will never forget it. I could not even tell you the places I got half of my WoW or AoC gear, it didnt matter I could upgrade it within the week.
Back on topic.
Raiding will be in Guild Wars 2. Like my other post said, any content that takes more then a single group to beat is a "Raid" event. I for one will not miss raid zones where your guild had s certain day each week to clear said zone.
Comments
As a hardcore PvE player I disagree. Raiding does not equate endgame, in fact it narrowly defines it. GW2 has oodles of endgame for the PvE'er. From Legendary building, to map completion, to the Orr zone, to the 1500+ Dynamic events spread about a VERY large map. Im sorry if you dont see it, and sure this wont please the raiding community but seeing as the raiding community is around 10% of the playerbase of a given MMO then its not a bad thing. Guild Wars 2 End Game (7.12.12.) Q&A Part 1 Guild Wars 2 End Game (7.12.12.) Q&A Part 2
Did you actually watch those videos? There is almost nothing to them. You have some skill point grinds for items, dynamic events that by the large are just the same mechanics playing themselves over and over again w/ slight twists, and some skill and puzzles challenges.
The dynamic events will be neat the first couple months, but after that it will be routine and boring. The skill challenges might be fun for the same people that dig the achievement stuff. And then you have the small party dungeons (which are actually a favorite thing of mine personally). That's pretty much it.
If you aren't a PvP player, your going to be disappointed after a couple months. You'll get your money's worth out of the game, but don't expect this to be something that going to entertain you for years based off it's PvE merit.
Speaking from personal experience but GW1 kept my attention for nearly a year. It did have regular expansion but nonetheless it was all PvE for me basically. Was a very nice game and from my time spent on the BWE gw2's PvE has been ever more intense.
lol. You know they do complex psychological studies on the personality types of people who PvP heavily versus those that PvE heavily:
In contrast to this, players who reported playing World of Warcraft for the joy of competition [PvP] scored high in dominance, leadership, masculinity and narcissism, and low in tolerance and femininity. ... it appears that PvP players are generally more domineering and willing to take charge, more confident in their own abilities, more willing to take risks and possessed of a strong desire to control others around them. Further, PvP players are less likely to be tolerant of mistakes made by other players and more likely to take action without first considering consequences.
Of course, they have to be 'nice' and 'professional' when they describe these characteristics of the populations. But it doesn't take a 'rocket surgeon' to translate those characteristics into the more perjortive state average gamer experiences them...
So, if the 'hardcore' PvPers leave for Planetside 2... Honestly, I won't shed a tear. This game doesn't need subs and the vast bulk of the PvE players don't need their characters constantly nerfed/twinked because a bunch of PvPers cry and whine on the forums all day because they think all classes should be 'balanced' as if that was an immutable law of gaming.
This post is factually false.
WoW's Wrath raiding had over 50% of the playerbase playing it.
It was something Blizzard was very vocal about.
WIth the LFR system in Cata, I'd imagine that number went UP.
I don't get why not putting in a game mechanic can be a 'good' thing.
Give players choices and let them choose what they want to do.
It's not a myth, it's just old information. Blizzard's changes to the Raid systems increased the number of people participating. I would think that in Rift and other games that aren't WoW, the percentage of people raiding is much lower. Unlike WoW, in those games when people aren't raiding, they aren't playing.
I can live without Raids in GW2. There will need to be some sort of something to do, in addition to the PvP to keep people in the game though. If you have a good percentage of the population logging in every day doing something, it'll keep their friends in, and their friends' friends in, and so on. I think that's how WoW has worked all these years. The grabbed a core group, and that core group grabbed their friends, and their friends' friends.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I guess you need to take it up with Blizzard then. They're the ones who publish the data on their raiding and their PvP.
You have a 10% hardcore raiding base. You've got a 10% hardcore PvP base. All the rest is casual cross-over which I mentioned in the 'other 80%'
Denying a certain type of content to players is a TERRIBLE thing.
There are very few times when this isn't true. Not having raids ultimately denies players 1 more thing to do.
Don't get me wrong, it doesn't nessisarily need it, but your arguement is basically "I don't like it so its great" which is like having a candy store and not selling any chocolate because you don't like it. Sure you still got a candy store and you aren't missing out on it, but a lot of other people are.
Feel free to put on proof. Oh wait, you can't. Because you simply speak for any gamer but yourself...
Well, never mind then...
Funny, but we don't go to WoW forums and demand they take raiding out... Or claim the MMO is a failure because it has that horrible, hamster-wheel, casino-like gear-grind... But I do see them complaining and demandiing buffs for this, that and the other thing while others attack them and the PvPers chime in on how it will destroy their precious PvP 'balance.'
As far as the acerbic reactions go, they are more in a response to the hard-core raiders making an unsupported argument that without their particual gaming fetish being the primary 'end game' occupation the game will fail. PvPers, btw, make the same truth claim about PvP. And it is clearl that both of these mutually exclusive truth-claims can't be right. Which then allows those who aren't emotionally invested to understand that both are, by-and-large, false and over-stated claims.
And that's what so many of us get tired of... Over-arching, aggressive proclimations that there is something wrong because their narrow interested aren't catered. For SOME gamers, lack of the traditional, reward-gated, once-a-week raid will be an issue that they MAY not be able to over-come. But it will be a MINORITY since, as a group, they're already a minority.
OTOH, there is a significant majority of gamers (comprised of many significant minorities in game play) that have been taken for granted for a very long time and that is finally getting some respect and attention. When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with solid exploration released? When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with stories you can actually influence the story (not control, but some influence on path) was released? When (and what) was the last AAA MMO with puzzles and what-not released?
And those people are happy. Yet here come the PvPers and the Raiders to constantly crap on their parade.
So you tell me, why not a little schadenfreude? Is it really so bad to laugh at the people who have been ****ing on the parade of those who are FINALLY getting their needs even half-way addressed in a AAA MMO now that the tables have turned a bit? I, personally, don't think so.
Wow... I think you may need a few minutes to gather yourself. All this post did was confirm that YOU don't want raids because you're bitter and angry.
Why not? having Raids in GW2 is a GREAT thing!!!!!!!
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Losing a cornerstone of good PvE is unlikely to be 'a great thing'. But if the content the OP mentions is as good as he recons then I can see his point. I applaud GW2 for trying something new, but it is perfectly reasonable for posters to be sceptical that this content will be as good as raids. I wonder could we have some videos to show us how good this end game group content is?
GW2 doesn't have raids, thats that
Lets just give GW2 a try, and see what the hell happens.
Those that wants RAIDS don't try GW2, they told you Loud and Clear, there is no raids here.
Those that don't mind that GW2 dont' have raids, Welcome, in 11 days, you have head start.
Those that still can't decide, wait till its released, watch videos, read forum posts, then make your decision. Nothing right now can help you change your mind. All that could have been said has been said.
There is no subscriptions, so when you buy the game, you own it, its yours to play whenever you want, so buy at your own risk. Its your money, you determine how you spend it.
To all those that said No Raid = death, well , in 11 days we will see, if GW2 gets very popular, and have millions of players, then maybe we will see you in game, or maybe we won't, not like anyone will be giving you a parade if you do decide to try GW2. But we will thank you for spending the money to support ANET.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Nope, EQ1 > WoW everyday of the week.
Raids where way more fun in EQ1 then in WoW.
Gear grind in EQ1 was masked pretty well until the PoP expansion then it became priority but before that it was normally to be wearing a piece of gear for 5+ levels or more.
Sooner or Later
It has raids just not the "Normal" raids. There will be content that requires more then a single group to beat which is a "Raid".
Any content that takes more then a group to beat is a "Raid". That is reality but most do not think that way, most do not have an open mind.
So will Guild Wars 2 have raid zones like other MMOs? No. Will it have raid content? Yes. WvWvW will be raid content as well as it will take more then a single group to capture and hold keeps.
Sooner or Later
I miss those days where collecting gear is NOT the whole point of playing. Back then you would wear a piece of gear for 5-10 levels there's no such bullshit as gearscore and item level. You would upgrade your equipment maybe once or twice per month and that's considered plenty. Games back then were truly fun. Personally I'm glad they eschew the idea of a private raid dungeons for a more social and public experience such as defeating a public raid boss. Everyone who participated gets rewarded with something.
Its just semantics.
If i enjoy GW2 and I find it fun ( which from my BWE experience I DO) Then GW2 is a game for me.
If I don't enjoy GW2 then I won't be playing it much, regardless of if it has Raids or Not.
LOTRO, WOW, EQ, EQ2 all these have raids, but I am not playing them, because I don't find the game itself fun for me.
In General, regardless of whether a game has raids or not, it all depends on whether or not people find what they want in the game itself. If you find that one " IT" that you want, you will play GW2, if you don't find the " IT" then you won't enjoy it even if it has Raids, most likely you won't even touch the raids if you didn't like the game.
Unless there are people that don't care if they enjoy the game or not, or whether or not its fun for them and only play if there are Raids in them, then these people are beyond my abilities.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I'm still quite leery what I'm going to do in GW2 once I hit 80. Seriously how many different ways can I kill mob X to make the game fun and fresh? I highly doubt its going to take more than a week or two to hit 80. So what is left for me to do? PvP WvW? Sounds like having raids to participate in would at least add something else, no?
Please oh please don't give me there are other classes to test out and play their story lines (TOR went that route and made a mess).
There's nothing wrong with the OP's opinion, because it's an opinion. They don't like raids and everything that comes with them. GW2 doesn't have raids, so that's great in their book. I agree. I can understand why raids can be fun for some people, but I don't enjoy them. Unless a company has unlimited resources, the effort that gets put into raids takes away from the effort put into everything else in the game. Since I prefer everything else in the game to raids, I agree with Anet's approach to designing their game.
That doesn't mean I'm going to look at a raider and laugh, but I'm not going to feel sorry for them either. Raiders aren't being shown raids that they aren't allowed to enter, the raids just don't exist in the first place. I would think the thing to do would be to play something that does have raids, not complain about the one game that doesn't have raids.
** edit **
To clarify, the OP's post was written by someone on another forum, they don't reference raiders at all, though they do present their opinions as facts, or at least arguments supporting their theory. Namely, that GW2's lack of raids is a good thing.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You should explore, farm achievments and cosmetic stuff. Or try some insane jumping puzzles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TovL15CZqd4
But you like instanced content, there's 8 hardmode dungeons where you wont faceroll by getting better gear
Never had an issue in GW1 of finding things to do. I then played AoC and really the only "end game" things to do was raid for gear or PvP it felt very limited. Which I found strange from a company that made AO but that was an older game that went more by the older philosophy. To be honest AO has many cool encounters that very few people did and even then they weren't done very often.
What is a raid anyway? A dungeon with gear progression to do over and over again. There is a social aspect to it which can be fun but seems to get more and more political over time as the previous raids gear is needed for the new raid. DKP comes into play, don't miss a day, don't screw up once, .... To me it turns into a job not a game.
It really seems like there are two things that GW2 lacks for the "hardcore" raiders - 1. gear progression 2. instanced dungeons that require a large group. ( An optional 3 - the holy trinity)
Gear progress is a Skinners Box it really doesn't really supply a lot of fun.
This leaves us with large group instanced dungeons. They can be fun but are they really necessary for an MMO. For GW2 they are saying no but, as has been said, there are open world encounters that scratch some of this itch.
I kinda considered killing those humongous creatures with as many people as you wanted as well as "raiding". I guess nobody else but us see it as raiding. But they apparently refer to the older genre's raiding type.
Anyway, it appears that not having raids in GW2(as the OP stated) isn't such a great thing since there's a pretty big discussion here. Who knows what may be implemented in the future, adding raids in the game couldn't hurt anyone and it would please the raiding-group. But in all honesty... won't you have enough of other stuff to do in GW2 (for a while) without the old raiding system?
Yes I miss those days too. My Necromancer got a ring at lvl 50 that I still had equiped at lvl 80 when I left the game. I miss games like that. That ring had meaning, I can tell you the story of how I got it to this day and I will never forget it. I could not even tell you the places I got half of my WoW or AoC gear, it didnt matter I could upgrade it within the week.
Back on topic.
Raiding will be in Guild Wars 2. Like my other post said, any content that takes more then a single group to beat is a "Raid" event. I for one will not miss raid zones where your guild had s certain day each week to clear said zone.
Sooner or Later