Why SW:TOR is not down for the count!

Presbytier

This has been a whirl wind of a year for SW:TOR; there is no doubt about that. It started out as the second coming of Theme Park MMORPGs and now it is declared as an example as to why Theme Park MMORPGs are done for. Now I don"t have anything against Sandbox MMOs, but I do prefer the structure and nature of Theme Park games(which really is a misleading name since overal there are not many differences between a Theme Park and Sandbox game; just ask any one what constitutes as a pure Sandbox MMO and you will get an exceptionally wide variety of veiwpoints).

 

So, the question is; is SW:TOR over or is this just the beggining of its second coming. Now I will admit that most of this is just the hopes and wishes of a fan, but that does not devalue what i am about to say. Firstly I firmly believe SW:ToR would have been better served if it had taken a B2P model from the get go(notice i did not say F2P since i I think this game did sell well and would have continued to sell well without a sub). Now the game itself had an exceptionally solid launch one that I think many companies should emulate(from the looks of things GW2 is taking the same model with lots of Beta weekends and stress tests before launch). For the most part it also did not have an incredible amount of game breaking bugs( I am not sying it had no bugs, because it did, but instead pointing out that in comparison to most MMO launches it was considerably better).

 

Now the real issue was it just launched one year to soon. Many quality of life features the game needed as well as PvP and endgame content was just not there at launch, and i believe that it seriously hindered the game out of the gate. Many of those things have been addresed since launch(well except PvP which is still a mess), and the games overall performance has increased considrably since then as well. So, just less than one year later SW:TOR is going F2P, and it is a good thing. More people will be able to access the game with less restrictions; the only question is to whether they can keep their six week promise of new content and as to whether they can monetize it inj a way that does not piss off their fans but still makes them money.

Kakkzooka

This should be as entertaining as the "Why Betamax is not down for the count!" thread.

Presbytier

Originally posted by Kakkzooka
This should be as entertaining as the "Why Betamax is not down for the count!" thread.

Funny, but none the less wrong example. Game mechanics and technological inovation don;t coralate(in other words "apples to oranges"). Just because some people don't like one type of game does not mean others won't. Game mechanics never get stale.

Probert

How can you say there is no difference between Sandbox and Theme Parks? There are HUGE differences, gaming companies want full control over what is going on in their game and how people play their game...why you won't see many if any at all sandbox games.

jeremyjodes

Originally posted by Kakkzooka
This should be as entertaining as the "Why Betamax is not down for the count!" thread.

Beta Max was superior. get over it VHS people!

Presbytier

Originally posted by Probert
How can you say there is no difference between Sandbox and Theme Parks? There are HUGE differences, gaming companies want full control over what is going on in their game and how people play their game...why you won't see many if any at all sandbox games.

My point is entirely subjective, but I found that when people actually try o list the differences it collapses under the fact that no one agrees to what a Sandbox MMO should be to begin with.

Presbytier

Originally posted by alexanys1982
smartphones will never catch on

Funny thing is I do remember people in my company actually saying that.

IG-88

Originally posted by Presbytier

 

My point is entirely subjective, but I found that when people actually try o list the differences it collapses under the fact that no one agrees to what a Sandbox MMO should be to begin with.

Which is due to the fact that a sandbox can be so many different things, its the whole nature of the sandbox, its open and just about anything can change. The MMO itself is just a platform for the contents the devs or player put in it.

A sandbox may very well contain themeparks.

A themepark on the other hand, is more easily defined since it is more linear.

 

ZigZags

I think an MMO needs both Sandbox AND Theme park features to succeed otherwise they become too niche to really capture a massive audience. I think WoW does this pretty well...some will say World PVP in WoW is dead, its not and they are making it even more populated after MoP by cross server leveling zones.

 

SWTOR was too much of a theme park in a galaxy that demands freedom of exploration and sandbox like features. Also it helps if your developement team is not full of arrogant people who thnk they know best and dont care what their fans think. SWTOR deserves every bit of crap that is being thrown in its direction. Just look at space combat.....to me they should have left it out of the game entirely because putting it in the game just proves how much they dont care about the game or you as a subscriber.

 

SWTOR IS down for the count. Your definintion of "down for the count" varies from mine but to me, when your game was designed to compete with the best, can't hang on to even 10% of the players the best has, then goes f2p in the first year.....it couldn't really get ANY worse than that.

tiefighter25

Using your premise, SWTOR was released too early and had numerous flaws, that would make it a bad themepark game. While it may add points to the argument of sandbox vs. themepark; it's probably not valid or fair to use what you have described as a bad themepark game to determine the superiority or viability of a themepark design vs a sandbox design. While  SWTOR can add weight to your argument, till proven otherwise, WoW still remains the Themepark champion and there still hasn't been a serious sandbox contender. (in terms of sheer ammount of players.) This is of course only my opinion.

-Inferno-

Having played SWTOR from beta until June, my main reason for quitting the game was the lack of player-driven changes in the world. Everything is just static and not very creative. The world is lacking detail and looks way too clean and like made from plastic in many places. Add to that the lack of things to do once you hit level 50 and the game becomes a boring shell of what it is from 1 to 50. I saw no reason to pay a monthly subscription while standing on the fleet for hours, wondering what I could do to justify that subscription fee. The raids were ok, but that content also becomes repetitive rather quickly, when you are in a good guild that masters all of it in a reasonable time frame. I'll make a list of reasons that also contributed to my decision to quit the game:

- lack of immersion (little music, little background noise besides a speeder, no atmospheric stuff like day-night cycle or birds or flies or whatever)

- planets being leveling hubs but after you outlevel them, there's no reason to go back

- space being rather unimaginative and not very challenging, again no matter what you do, it has no effect on the world

- no player housing

- no casual, non-fighting, socializing mechanics (i.e. skills like entertaining/music making/image design, fishing, cooking, etc.), in SWTOR even the crafting is as imaginative and intellectually demanding as watching paint dry. I guess an Excel sheet has more charisma than SWTOR's crafting system...

- the game is too linear and dictates where you have to go to have fun (i.e. to do quests that reward you with XP), even if there may be two planets you can chose from, that is not a lot of choice and at level 50 you are given the choice to do repetitive daily quests each day... no thanks, I'm not some hamster in a treadmill...

- bugs in some cases even gamebreaking bugs (I remember how long Soa was a buggy mess that ruined our raid evenings more often than not...)

- slow response time by Bioware... for a developer that big, their programming skills seem to be underdeveloped. I can see faster fixes and more creativity from smaller dev studios, so what's the problem at Bioware?

- lack of communication by the community team, something which periodically changes depending on who is the lead community manager of the month... only to die down after some hot air has been posted on the forums. Actual information about upcoming stuff with pictures, videos, lore, etc.? Happening very rarely if at all.

I really tried to like SWTOR, but the game is just lacking in so many areas, that I decided to spend my free time elsewhere. GW2 is my new MMOG of choice, considering that Anet does a lot of things different and in a much better way than Bioware (i.e. much more stuff to do, a lot more detail in everything, a lot better immersion, great music, great graphics, fast response times by Anet, etc.) I don't think SWTOR can stop the downward spiral of losing subscribers simply by going F2P. The game suffers from bad design decisions and in many cases even worse implementation, rather than its subscription fee.

Presbytier

Originally posted by ZigZags

I think an MMO needs both Sandbox AND Theme park features to succeed otherwise they become too niche to really capture a massive audience. I think WoW does this pretty well...some will say World PVP in WoW is dead, its not and they are making it even more populated after MoP by cross server leveling zones.

 

SWTOR was too much of a theme park in a galaxy that demands freedom of exploration and sandbox like features. Also it helps if your developement team is not full of arrogant people who thnk they know best and dont care what their fans think. SWTOR deserves every bit of crap that is being thrown in its direction. Just look at space combat.....to me they should have left it out of the game entirely because putting it in the game just proves how much they dont care about the game or you as a subscriber.

 

SWTOR IS down for the count. Your definintion of "down for the count" varies from mine but to me, when your game was designed to compete with the best, can't hang on to even 10% of the players the best has, then goes f2p in the first year.....it couldn't really get ANY worse than that.

Here is the problem; I do not think the Devs don't care. I think they care allot. I do beleive the game can feel closed off, but I do not think that is a real problem. Also they have never given any indication they don"t care what the fans think; space combat is the way it is primarily do to limitation of the engine.

odinsrath

down for the count no...throwing in the towel ..yes

maji

Your post is kinda strange.

 

I mean come on: I doubt that anyone but the tiny group of super hardcore swtor fans thought, that the game would be "the second coming of theme park mmorps". Why? Because the game simply offers nothing substantially new. It's a 99% generic theme park mmorpg with a star wars skin. And that's the reason why it's losing subscribers: it's the same as always.

 

But I also think that this was the entire concept of the game: build a generic theme park MMORPG with a big budget, give it an IP with a huge number of fans, and make lots of money with preorders. Then some more money with subscriptions, and later with the item shop when the game turns free to play. That was how it was planned, that was how it turned out.

Presbytier

Originally posted by maji
Your post is kinda strange.

 

I mean come on: I doubt that anyone but the tiny group of super hardcore swtor fans thought, that the game would be "the second coming of theme park mmorps". Why? Because the game simply offers nothing substantially new. It's a 99% generic theme park mmorpg with a star wars skin. And that's the reason why it's losing subscribers: it's the same as always.

 

But I also think that this was the entire concept of the game: build a generic theme park MMORPG with a big budget, give it an IP with a huge number of fans, and make lots of money with preorders. Then some more money with subscriptions, and later with the item shop when the game turns free to play. That was how it was planned, that was how it turned out.

Generic, hardley. Name a single other MMO that devoted to giving its players their own story.

lifeordinary

Originally posted by odinsrath

down for the count no...throwing in the towel ..yes

Throwing in the towel would be shutting down of servers..so more like preparing for next round after severe beating in first round.

Learn to use analogies properly people.

Weretigar

Originally posted by Presbytier

So, the question is; is SW:ToR over or is this just the beggining of its second coming. Now I will admit that most of this is just the hopes and wishes of a fan, but that does not devalue what i am about to say. Firstly I firmly believe SW:ToR would have been better served if it had taken a B2P model from the get go(notice i did not say F2P since i I think this game did sell well and would have continued to sell well without a sub). Now the game itself had an exceptionally solid launch one that I think many companies should emulate(from the looks of things GW2 is taking the same model with lots of Beta weekends and stress tests before launch). For the most part it also did not have an incredible amount of game breaking bugs( I am not sying it had no bugs, because it did, but instead pointing out that in comparison to most MMO launches it was considerably better).

I never like to see any MMO that i have currently bought and paid for doing poorly. However I can honestly say that with 8% USA Retention rate based on 123 server at launch 12 servers now with 2 pvp servers that can still be merged that even if this game does go F2P unless they make some major changes with FPS issues, re-due the flashpoints where you do not have to watch the whole thing everytime to get companion points, make it so legacy can be added to the family tree at the very begining, ect. Even people playing it for free are going to be agrivated.

I Played SWTOR model of beta it was nothing like gw2's. Closed beta and open beta were kinda just like free time for beta testers eveything we said was wrong with the game was still that way at launch. Also SWTOR never did a stress test. The models couldn't be more different. SWTOR Beta model was more like FF14's then anything. Couple closed and then an open before launch ignoring players submitted bugs and concerns.

IF SWTOR wants a second comming they need to fix the huge fps dips in places like the tower defence pvp, and also in places like illum. There was over a 400 page complaint before it dissapeared. The issues were never addressed and it was comen for some all knowing fan to get on the forums and say"spend 2000$ to play a 60$ game". When it goes FTP do you think people comming in with mid range comp's by the hundereds of thousands is going to want to hear this?

I Hope SWTOR has a good second launch, I do plan on finishing my 4 stories on the empire side since I finished all 4 on my jedi side. However none of the real dealbreaking bugs and concerns are still being addressed. I do not think they will have a second comming.

 

odinsrath

with that huge budget...huge IP and huge promises..its a huge fail in my mind going p2p to f2p within a year...sry..imo they are throwing in the towel on this game and saying pfft..time to start on another starwars cash cow for the sheep

lifeordinary

Originally posted by odinsrath

with that huge budget...huge IP and huge promises..its a huge fail in my mind going p2p to f2p within a year...sry..imo they are throwing in the towel on this game and saying pfft..time to start on another starwars cash cow for the sheep

By all means continue to twist the meaning of the term for your own personal satisfaction

But throwing in the towel would mean shutting down the servers and i don't think EA is stupid enough to do that as they will turn SWTOR into a cash cow with micro transactions.

jybgess

This game is like a Hooker. They're both dead inside.

Xiveil

Originally posted by Presbytier

Originally posted by maji
Your post is kinda strange.

 

I mean come on: I doubt that anyone but the tiny group of super hardcore swtor fans thought, that the game would be "the second coming of theme park mmorps". Why? Because the game simply offers nothing substantially new. It's a 99% generic theme park mmorpg with a star wars skin. And that's the reason why it's losing subscribers: it's the same as always.

 

But I also think that this was the entire concept of the game: build a generic theme park MMORPG with a big budget, give it an IP with a huge number of fans, and make lots of money with preorders. Then some more money with subscriptions, and later with the item shop when the game turns free to play. That was how it was planned, that was how it turned out.

Generic, hardley. Name a single other MMO that devoted to giving its players their own story.

Most actually have stories intended as you the hero, the main character.  Just none have full voice overs. And maybe or maybe not on the devs don't care...but I know one name that doesn't give a rats behind, and that is EA.  EVERYTHING they touch turns to dust. They rely on heavy box sales, put little money into development past that till they push out another box.  I wonder why their sports games have been around so long? Oh wait...

Funding will continually decrease unless the game has an upward surge of revenue, that's how EA rolls. Miracle return or shelve it like Warhammer.

odinsrath

Originally posted by jybgess
This game is like a Hooker. They're both dead inside.

if there was a "like" button id click it! xD

Presbytier

Originally posted by Xiveil

Originally posted by Presbytier

Originally posted by maji
Your post is kinda strange.

 

I mean come on: I doubt that anyone but the tiny group of super hardcore swtor fans thought, that the game would be "the second coming of theme park mmorps". Why? Because the game simply offers nothing substantially new. It's a 99% generic theme park mmorpg with a star wars skin. And that's the reason why it's losing subscribers: it's the same as always.

 

But I also think that this was the entire concept of the game: build a generic theme park MMORPG with a big budget, give it an IP with a huge number of fans, and make lots of money with preorders. Then some more money with subscriptions, and later with the item shop when the game turns free to play. That was how it was planned, that was how it turned out.

Generic, hardley. Name a single other MMO that devoted to giving its players their own story.

Most actually have stories intended as you the hero, the main character.  Just none have full voice overs. And maybe or maybe not on the devs don't care...but I know one name that doesn't give a rats behind, and that is EA.  EVERYTHING they touch turns to dust. They rely on heavy box sales, put little money into development past that till they push out another box.  I wonder why their sports games have been around so long? Oh wait...

Funding will continually decrease unless the game has an upward surge of revenue, that's how EA rolls. Miracle return or shelve it like Warhammer.

The EA connection is really the one thing that does worry me. I think a continual stream of content will increase revenue for them, but EA may not see it that way. As I said at the end of my original poat only time will tell.

tiefighter25

You are probably right to be concerned of EA's track record with underperforming MMOs. IIRC the only substantial updates to Warhammer were cash shop goodies, mounts, and a Renown cap increasse pack that was mandatory to purchase if you wanted to remain competative in the game. Other then that, the game is essentially in maintence mode.

BeansnBread

They would need NGE levels of change for me to go back for their F2P excursion.

drakaena

I don't like picking on TOR because at this point its like making fun of the handicap kid. It's just wrong and I feel dirty.

But I wouldn't play even if they offered to pay me 15$ a month.