Ok since this thread is still going... How to make Open world PvP Mainstream.
You couldn't do a level based game.
You need to devide it into 2 main factions.
The Sheep - The sheep are protected by towns, towers, Guards and have plenty of safe places to hide from the wolves. Sheep can only attack wolves. Sheep can only get partially looted or are allowed to have item insurance so that the wolves get gold instead of thier equipment. None equipment is still fair game. Sheep can own cities, but those cities may only be seiged durring prime time on the weekends.
The Wolves - This you could consider a bit like monster play from LotRO. You play the more brutal races. You can attack any player in the game you want sheep or wolf. You can loot any player you you kill or find dead sheep or wolf. You are only protected in your main cities. Your player cities are vulnerable to siege 24/7. Anyone that kills you may loot everything you have on you.
Playing a sheep costs a monthly fee.
Playing a wolf is free, but you may buy bigger and badder races from the item mall. The better the race your playing the longer it takes before it can respawn. This is to keep an army of Ogres from continously steam rolling the sheep.
Not saying the above is fully fleshed out or the exact way it needs to be but, the main goal is to give sheep the advantage but make them pay for it. Keep wolves at a disadvantage but let them play for free, give them some cool options on an item mall type setup but limit how much said items can impact the sheep.
Thats about the only way I see "Hardcore Open World PvP" going mainstream. Just keep in mind your wolves will still complain and so will your sheep claiming things are to harsh for thier side and will demand things be made easier. If you appease the sheep you will lose your wolves, if you appease your wolves you will lose your sheep. If you don't appease anyone you lose them all save a few lol.
Reverse your payment system and I'd say you have something decent there.
Wouldn't work in reverse. The "Sheep" need to be over powered in comparison to the Wolfs otherwise they won't stay. The "Wolves" won't stay if they feel they are getting shafted by the "Sheep" being over powered and so protected unless they get something significant in return.
Make people have to traverse the world as they once did and the open world PvP will happen. People que for everything now a days and there is no need to travel. If you do your in atmospheric flight where youa re safe anyways.
Player enconomy, stop linking AH's so different AH's have different stuff. Make it so the players can have player homesteads with private vendors that people need to visit to shop in open world. Need to have three factions not just two to make it worth a damn, and give reason for controlling areas. Provide buffs to realms who are winning and what not.
There is many things they can do and bring back from the old school days like SWG, Ultima Online and Dark Ages of Camelot.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Originally posted by Betaguy Make people have to traverse the world as they once did and the open world PvP will happen. People que for everything now a days and there is no need to travel. If you do your in atmospheric flight where youa re safe anyways.Player enconomy, stop linking AH's so different AH's have different stuff. Make it so the players can have player homesteads with private vendors that people need to visit to shop in open world. Need to have three factions not just two to make it worth a damn, and give reason for controlling areas. Provide buffs to realms who are winning and what not.There is many things they can do and bring back from the old school days like SWG, Ultima Online and Dark Ages of Camelot.
How does any of this convince people to play a game where open world pvp is the main focus? What you're describing sounds like forcing people to engage in open world pvp whether they want to or not. If they don't want to, why would they play the game?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So wait.. a setup event with stipulations that involves miniscule amount of players that couldn't support the event if it weren't for the rest of the fanbase.
WoW arena on the ES level is paper rock scissors, you know what your opponent comp is and you generally know how they play. It is a contest and not hardcore pvp.
Either way people obviously haven't been part of hardcore pvp. The best PvP isn't controlled.
So I don't owe him anything.
I'll pass on your bait, thank you. See my sig,
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Playing a wolf is free, but you may buy bigger and badder races from the item mall. The better the race your playing the longer it takes before it can respawn. This is to keep an army of Ogres from continously steam rolling the sheep.
Reverse your payment system and I'd say you have something decent there.
Wouldn't work in reverse. The "Sheep" need to be over powered in comparison to the Wolfs otherwise they won't stay. The "Wolves" won't stay if they feel they are getting shafted by the "Sheep" being over powered and so protected unless they get something significant in return.
I understand what you are saying, but there is a greater factor at play - paying players generally would not want to get PK'd by free players.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Betaguy Make people have to traverse the world as they once did and the open world PvP will happen. People que for everything now a days and there is no need to travel. If you do your in atmospheric flight where youa re safe anyways.
Player enconomy, stop linking AH's so different AH's have different stuff. Make it so the players can have player homesteads with private vendors that people need to visit to shop in open world. Need to have three factions not just two to make it worth a damn, and give reason for controlling areas. Provide buffs to realms who are winning and what not.
There is many things they can do and bring back from the old school days like SWG, Ultima Online and Dark Ages of Camelot.
How does any of this convince people to play a game where open world pvp is the main focus? What you're describing sounds like forcing people to engage in open world pvp whether they want to or not. If they don't want to, why would they play the game?
They wouldn't. That only worked back before there was so many, many choices. These days, damn few people would bother playing such a game.
Originally posted by Betaguy Make people have to traverse the world as they once did and the open world PvP will happen. People que for everything now a days and there is no need to travel. If you do your in atmospheric flight where youa re safe anyways.
Player enconomy, stop linking AH's so different AH's have different stuff. Make it so the players can have player homesteads with private vendors that people need to visit to shop in open world. Need to have three factions not just two to make it worth a damn, and give reason for controlling areas. Provide buffs to realms who are winning and what not.
There is many things they can do and bring back from the old school days like SWG, Ultima Online and Dark Ages of Camelot.
How does any of this convince people to play a game where open world pvp is the main focus? What you're describing sounds like forcing people to engage in open world pvp whether they want to or not. If they don't want to, why would they play the game?
They wouldn't. That only worked back before there was so many, many choices. These days, damn few people would bother playing such a game.
This ^^ .. i won't bother with a open world pvp game.
I think all of these "PVP elitests" are really just crossovers from FPS war games from consoles.
Do we really need this kind of exagerated macho sensability where everyone has eaten entirely too much red meat and bonks women on the head with their club while they sit around in caves yelling obscenities at one another and laughing at each other's foul gas?
Because really that's what this type of environment breeds.
I think all of these "PVP elitests" are really just crossovers from FPS war games from consoles.
Do we really need this kind of exagerated macho sensability where everyone has eaten entirely too much red meat and bonks women on the head with their club while they sit around in caves yelling obscenities at one another and laughing at each other's foul gas?
Because really that's what this type of environment breeds.
You wouldn't be here today if not for men with testosterone. I suggest you go extract some from a more Masculine animal and inject it so you can knwo what it's like to grunt and bonk.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Originally posted by Betaguy Make people have to traverse the world as they once did and the open world PvP will happen. People que for everything now a days and there is no need to travel. If you do your in atmospheric flight where youa re safe anyways.
Player enconomy, stop linking AH's so different AH's have different stuff. Make it so the players can have player homesteads with private vendors that people need to visit to shop in open world. Need to have three factions not just two to make it worth a damn, and give reason for controlling areas. Provide buffs to realms who are winning and what not.
There is many things they can do and bring back from the old school days like SWG, Ultima Online and Dark Ages of Camelot.
How does any of this convince people to play a game where open world pvp is the main focus? What you're describing sounds like forcing people to engage in open world pvp whether they want to or not. If they don't want to, why would they play the game?
They wouldn't. That only worked back before there was so many, many choices. These days, damn few people would bother playing such a game.
This ^^ .. i won't bother with a open world pvp game.
I agree, I mean i'd play an OWPvP game, but it'd have to be done right.
Do I know what done right is? Nah, but i'll let ya know if I find it.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
Open world PvP would be a niche game since people want to role play not get griefed all the time.
For a minority of MMO'ers, Open PvP is a dream and to most it is a nightmare.
Ya because WoW general chat is just FULL of people Roleplaying right?
the reason why WoW is successful is because its a PVE game, games with full PVP have been tried, but they've ultimately failed, its because the number of players that want that kind of game is actually very small, not to be confused with the 'casual pvp'er' who isnt really interested in open world pvp on a persistent basis, and probably approaches PVE in the same way. Take Eve, has the most open world PVP you can find.. yet .. the majority of the playerbase spends their time in high sec, with only forays into null and low sec, which, imo, is why any game that has full open world PVP will fail, flop, cease to exist through bankruptcy.. there just isnt a need or a demand for one.
I'm not sure sneaking up on a player and yanking his face off when he is clearly not intending to pvp is really that macho, allways has been the game for pvp cowards. Real pvp is 2 or more people facing up to each other and getting it on.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom I also think being 'hardcore' and open world pvp are at different ends of the spectrum, unless hardcore really means 'don't give a crap about others'
it was actually in reference to what concessions hardcore players would make such that an openworld pvp game was possible for the mainstream.
clearly no one is interested in making any concessions either side.
Originally posted by Bladestrom I also think being 'hardcore' and open world pvp are at different ends of the spectrum, unless hardcore really means 'don't give a crap about others'
it was actually in reference to what concessions hardcore players would make such that an openworld pvp game was possible for the mainstream.
clearly no one is interested in making any concessions either side.
There are no elegant solutions to make OWPvP more appealing. I also think the advocates are too stubborn to make any concessions. It is the same thing for sanboxes. Some people don't want sandboxes to be accessible or casual friendly even when it is the most notable shortcoming of nearly every sandbox out there.
They erroneously think it automatically means dumbing down the game. Or they foolishly think it is a matter of pride to play an incomprehensible and needlessly complicated game with a piss poor user interface.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I didn't read the responses, but to the title of this thread, it will never be mainstream.
I will put in the caveat that I love PvP and at this point in my life I pretty much play games only to PvP. PvE rarely is exciting to me anymore.
The majority of players don't want their play experience interuppted by someone running up and killing them. Even more so they don't want to get camped and they don't want to get picked on by someone who is much higher level than them. It simply isn't fun.
Truthfully, most real and mature PvPers also don't want to camp someone's corpse or go pick on the noobs over and over again. They realize how there is no fun or challenge in that and how it just kills off several populations. The problem lies with the immature PvPers. The ones who will camp the starter zone of a FFA PvP game and repeatedly kill the new players over and over while laughing at them. They will kill someone, take everything they have and then laugh in their face. It is a very immature approach to gaming but there are way too many people like that. It is why a game like UO could work back when gaming was only for "nerds" but could never work again. Back then people didn't just abuse people despite the fact that they could.
PvPers clamored for a game like Darkfall and what happened? They chased off anyone who was trying for the first time to get into that type of gaming by camping the starting areas. So all those people trying FFA PvP for the first time said "F&*k this!" logged off and never came back. The consequences? The game never had a good sized player base making it an ignored game that then other people never tried.
In short, a lot of the FFA PvP crowd is the exact crowd that keeps that type of gameplay from ever being successful. On top of that some casual gamers have a stigma against any kind of PvP and avoid it like the plague. It simply will never be mainstream in MMOs.
There's a whole lot of conversation going on here that I haven't had time to read through. I'm just going to post a few really quick thoughts.
First, I think the whole mainstream notion is a bit suspect. We already know what works as mainstream, and neither "hardcore" nor open world pvp are its center pieces. That said, that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a place for open world pvp or hardcore mechanics in mainstream MMOs.
One feature that I think will make open world pvp more friendly (and presumably, therefore, more "mainstream") is to feature it in a game that has a similar down scale system to GW2. One of the most frustrating aspects of open world pvp for many players is the ability for higher level players to come in and just terrorize lower level players. I know Aion has taken steps in this direction, but from what I understand, they're not enough. I've made posts about this in the past, but GW2's sytem is almost perfect for open world PvP. It's a pity it doesn't have any. That said, pvp, enemy factions and dynamic events would be an insane mess. So changes would certainly need to be made.
Lastly, I think any game that aspires to include successful open world pvp in a "mainstream" style MMO would do well to analyze vanilla WoW's Hillsbrad Foothills as a case study. Not necessarily to come up with good pvp mechanics or gameplay, but just to figure out precisely why that zone became such a pvp hotspot universally across all severs. Everyone who played WoW back then has their Southshore/Taren Mill stories to tell. It just seemed to have the right combination of inter-zone geography--for example, the very popular level 30-40 Scarlet Monestary dungeons way up in a secluded area of a horde starting zone--that fascilitated an influx of alliance players crossing deep into horde territory.
Originally posted by Ausare Even a child with a knife has a chance to kill a highwayman. In games typically the target has 0% chance.
The theme of a lot of fantasy novels is the story of the unlikely hero. In Lord of the Rings a hobbit destroys the ring of doom and defeats the dark lord. In modern PvP centric MMOs there is no such thing as unlikely heros, Mordor always wins. Open world PvP will never have mass appeal unless everyone has a reasonable chance of winning. There has always been a long winded debate in PvP if the mechanic that decides who wins is gear based or skill based. But really it should not be either of these things. Some things should just come down to chance such as the child with a knife killing the highwayman. That is what made D&D so interesting back in the day that fact that people purposely made weak characters.
Make open world FFA full loot PvP, looting players is the only reward needed for killing players because it already satisfys the carnal desire for blood and death. Then in order to balance the basic blood lust of FFA pvp you simply need to create as many reasons to work together as possible. It seems rather counter intuitve but I really believe that open world PvP needs more game mechanics designed to reward the players that work together.
I personally like the idea of player owned quest hubs. So players need to work together to create buildings and cities and then they want as many people to come to their city to quest since it gives the owners rewards. So the owners want to protect their players and the players want to protect the city. Then of course other people will want to come in and kill and loot everyone because thats what other players do.
WildStar is like if Ratchet and Clank had a baby with Beyond Good & Evil and that baby was raised by World of Warcraft and Spore and babysat on the weekends by the aliens from Space Jam. It's an ugly bastard worth a few laughs but not much else.
C) limiting evil protections in exchange for additional power
D) allowing evil players to kill other evil players indiscriminantly
E) a generally hard life for evil players in every way
2) Strong environmental protections
A) strong presence of guards in key areas such as cities, outposts and newbie areas
player deployment of additional guards including ranger guards with tracking abilities
C) ability of players to create and foritify towns , towers, bridges and other structures
3) Optional personal protections for good players
A) item protections
Inventory protections
C) Gold protections
D) Evil detection abilities.
The hidden gameplay here is that you actually have a reason to build that fortress and forify it without knowing that the next day it will all be burned to the ground because of a legion of evil players while you sleep. You have a reason to take over a mine and keep it guarded, you could even post guards at your house if you wished. Albiet a small presence, evil in this type of game would have its place and because its not overwhelming, i think people would not only get used to it but also enjoy it. On the flip side i believe the true hardcore players would enjoy the extreme challenge of being an evil player.
I think the risk to reward ration in most open world PvP games is off balance especially where you have FFA. This is what leads to gank fests that turn most people off. There is reward for going red, and not any meaningful consequences. Going red becomes the easiest path to advancement. It should be a path, but not without its own set of risks, some of which, would deter some players while others would welcome the challenge.
Comments
Wouldn't work in reverse. The "Sheep" need to be over powered in comparison to the Wolfs otherwise they won't stay. The "Wolves" won't stay if they feel they are getting shafted by the "Sheep" being over powered and so protected unless they get something significant in return.
Make people have to traverse the world as they once did and the open world PvP will happen. People que for everything now a days and there is no need to travel. If you do your in atmospheric flight where youa re safe anyways.
Player enconomy, stop linking AH's so different AH's have different stuff. Make it so the players can have player homesteads with private vendors that people need to visit to shop in open world. Need to have three factions not just two to make it worth a damn, and give reason for controlling areas. Provide buffs to realms who are winning and what not.
There is many things they can do and bring back from the old school days like SWG, Ultima Online and Dark Ages of Camelot.
How does any of this convince people to play a game where open world pvp is the main focus? What you're describing sounds like forcing people to engage in open world pvp whether they want to or not. If they don't want to, why would they play the game?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'll pass on your bait, thank you. See my sig,
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I understand what you are saying, but there is a greater factor at play - paying players generally would not want to get PK'd by free players.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
They wouldn't. That only worked back before there was so many, many choices. These days, damn few people would bother playing such a game.
This ^^ .. i won't bother with a open world pvp game.
Open world PvP would be a niche game since people want to role play not get griefed all the time.
For a minority of MMO'ers, Open PvP is a dream and to most it is a nightmare.
Ya because WoW general chat is just FULL of people Roleplaying right?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I think all of these "PVP elitests" are really just crossovers from FPS war games from consoles.
Do we really need this kind of exagerated macho sensability where everyone has eaten entirely too much red meat and bonks women on the head with their club while they sit around in caves yelling obscenities at one another and laughing at each other's foul gas?
Because really that's what this type of environment breeds.
You wouldn't be here today if not for men with testosterone. I suggest you go extract some from a more Masculine animal and inject it so you can knwo what it's like to grunt and bonk.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I agree, I mean i'd play an OWPvP game, but it'd have to be done right.
Do I know what done right is? Nah, but i'll let ya know if I find it.
The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.
the reason why WoW is successful is because its a PVE game, games with full PVP have been tried, but they've ultimately failed, its because the number of players that want that kind of game is actually very small, not to be confused with the 'casual pvp'er' who isnt really interested in open world pvp on a persistent basis, and probably approaches PVE in the same way. Take Eve, has the most open world PVP you can find.. yet .. the majority of the playerbase spends their time in high sec, with only forays into null and low sec, which, imo, is why any game that has full open world PVP will fail, flop, cease to exist through bankruptcy.. there just isnt a need or a demand for one.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
it was actually in reference to what concessions hardcore players would make such that an openworld pvp game was possible for the mainstream.
clearly no one is interested in making any concessions either side.
There are no elegant solutions to make OWPvP more appealing. I also think the advocates are too stubborn to make any concessions. It is the same thing for sanboxes. Some people don't want sandboxes to be accessible or casual friendly even when it is the most notable shortcoming of nearly every sandbox out there.
They erroneously think it automatically means dumbing down the game. Or they foolishly think it is a matter of pride to play an incomprehensible and needlessly complicated game with a piss poor user interface.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I didn't read the responses, but to the title of this thread, it will never be mainstream.
I will put in the caveat that I love PvP and at this point in my life I pretty much play games only to PvP. PvE rarely is exciting to me anymore.
The majority of players don't want their play experience interuppted by someone running up and killing them. Even more so they don't want to get camped and they don't want to get picked on by someone who is much higher level than them. It simply isn't fun.
Truthfully, most real and mature PvPers also don't want to camp someone's corpse or go pick on the noobs over and over again. They realize how there is no fun or challenge in that and how it just kills off several populations. The problem lies with the immature PvPers. The ones who will camp the starter zone of a FFA PvP game and repeatedly kill the new players over and over while laughing at them. They will kill someone, take everything they have and then laugh in their face. It is a very immature approach to gaming but there are way too many people like that. It is why a game like UO could work back when gaming was only for "nerds" but could never work again. Back then people didn't just abuse people despite the fact that they could.
PvPers clamored for a game like Darkfall and what happened? They chased off anyone who was trying for the first time to get into that type of gaming by camping the starting areas. So all those people trying FFA PvP for the first time said "F&*k this!" logged off and never came back. The consequences? The game never had a good sized player base making it an ignored game that then other people never tried.
In short, a lot of the FFA PvP crowd is the exact crowd that keeps that type of gameplay from ever being successful. On top of that some casual gamers have a stigma against any kind of PvP and avoid it like the plague. It simply will never be mainstream in MMOs.
and the reason why? stealth and CC. take those 2 crutchs away and make the game skill based and you have a chance when getting ganked.
There is a reason why Asherons Call Darktide server lasted for so many years and is considered one of the best hard core pvp servers of all time.
no stealth
no cc
skill based game
looting
no safe zones on the entire map not even in towns, just going to sell your items could be an adventure.
There's a whole lot of conversation going on here that I haven't had time to read through. I'm just going to post a few really quick thoughts.
First, I think the whole mainstream notion is a bit suspect. We already know what works as mainstream, and neither "hardcore" nor open world pvp are its center pieces. That said, that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a place for open world pvp or hardcore mechanics in mainstream MMOs.
One feature that I think will make open world pvp more friendly (and presumably, therefore, more "mainstream") is to feature it in a game that has a similar down scale system to GW2. One of the most frustrating aspects of open world pvp for many players is the ability for higher level players to come in and just terrorize lower level players. I know Aion has taken steps in this direction, but from what I understand, they're not enough. I've made posts about this in the past, but GW2's sytem is almost perfect for open world PvP. It's a pity it doesn't have any. That said, pvp, enemy factions and dynamic events would be an insane mess. So changes would certainly need to be made.
Lastly, I think any game that aspires to include successful open world pvp in a "mainstream" style MMO would do well to analyze vanilla WoW's Hillsbrad Foothills as a case study. Not necessarily to come up with good pvp mechanics or gameplay, but just to figure out precisely why that zone became such a pvp hotspot universally across all severs. Everyone who played WoW back then has their Southshore/Taren Mill stories to tell. It just seemed to have the right combination of inter-zone geography--for example, the very popular level 30-40 Scarlet Monestary dungeons way up in a secluded area of a horde starting zone--that fascilitated an influx of alliance players crossing deep into horde territory.
The theme of a lot of fantasy novels is the story of the unlikely hero. In Lord of the Rings a hobbit destroys the ring of doom and defeats the dark lord. In modern PvP centric MMOs there is no such thing as unlikely heros, Mordor always wins. Open world PvP will never have mass appeal unless everyone has a reasonable chance of winning. There has always been a long winded debate in PvP if the mechanic that decides who wins is gear based or skill based. But really it should not be either of these things. Some things should just come down to chance such as the child with a knife killing the highwayman. That is what made D&D so interesting back in the day that fact that people purposely made weak characters.
Make open world FFA full loot PvP, looting players is the only reward needed for killing players because it already satisfys the carnal desire for blood and death. Then in order to balance the basic blood lust of FFA pvp you simply need to create as many reasons to work together as possible. It seems rather counter intuitve but I really believe that open world PvP needs more game mechanics designed to reward the players that work together.
I personally like the idea of player owned quest hubs. So players need to work together to create buildings and cities and then they want as many people to come to their city to quest since it gives the owners rewards. So the owners want to protect their players and the players want to protect the city. Then of course other people will want to come in and kill and loot everyone because thats what other players do.
WildStar is like if Ratchet and Clank had a baby with Beyond Good & Evil and that baby was raised by World of Warcraft and Spore and babysat on the weekends by the aliens from Space Jam. It's an ugly bastard worth a few laughs but not much else.
so if we could maintain:
1) a population balance of 25 good to 1 evil
A) not allowing players to start evil
C) limiting evil protections in exchange for additional power
D) allowing evil players to kill other evil players indiscriminantly
E) a generally hard life for evil players in every way
2) Strong environmental protections
A) strong presence of guards in key areas such as cities, outposts and newbie areas
C) ability of players to create and foritify towns , towers, bridges and other structures
3) Optional personal protections for good players
A) item protections
C) Gold protections
D) Evil detection abilities.
The hidden gameplay here is that you actually have a reason to build that fortress and forify it without knowing that the next day it will all be burned to the ground because of a legion of evil players while you sleep. You have a reason to take over a mine and keep it guarded, you could even post guards at your house if you wished. Albiet a small presence, evil in this type of game would have its place and because its not overwhelming, i think people would not only get used to it but also enjoy it. On the flip side i believe the true hardcore players would enjoy the extreme challenge of being an evil player.
Evil, eh? Hrmmm... I just can't wrap my mind around that one.
Sure, I can see the guys that run around randomly killing folks for the shiz 'n gigz being labeled Evil; but uh - hrmmm - that ignores so much....
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I think the risk to reward ration in most open world PvP games is off balance especially where you have FFA. This is what leads to gank fests that turn most people off. There is reward for going red, and not any meaningful consequences. Going red becomes the easiest path to advancement. It should be a path, but not without its own set of risks, some of which, would deter some players while others would welcome the challenge.