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Thoughts after reaching 80 and playing the end game. A partial retrospect.
DataDay
Member UncommonPosts: 1,538
Well, after achieving level 80, getting crafting up and spending some time looking back at the experience so far, as well as the experience ahead (or whats left)... I am left with a different impression of Guild Wars 2 as a whole.
While its safe to say Guild Wars 2 is a very good game and worth the money, it is not safe to say it had a great launch and events post launch showcase a game not ready for "consumption".
I am ultimately left a bit dissapointed, primarily because it is such a great game with so much "potenial". That at its core is what makes it a bit frustrating.
Here is a list of what I personally have experienced with the game since then and what has fought agaist the good experiences I have had.
1. Log in issues. The verify email server was never actually sending out the emails to verify, so a week was nearly lost just trying to log into the game which was originally working fine in the headstart.
2. In game mail stopped working. This means If I sent (which I did) my gf nearly a gold in money and items, they would just dissapear into the void never to return.
3. Trade Post down. Lots of items and no means to sell. When it was up, multiple items were bought due to some server issue, causing multiple weapons and gear to be purchased...i only needed 1.
4. Bonus items for preorder went missing after day 1. This means 1000 influence for the guild (which is important) and a unique mini pet (for those collectors out there).
5. Storyline broken half of the time. Sometimes the story wouldnt make sense, the game would think I made choices I didnt make and intruduce characters I already met and fought alongside earlier in the game. Its as if they didnt tie the story together very well at all. The quests themselves were good but either imbalanced or bugged (scripting). One of the big bosses in the game, which is known as the eye of zhaitan (the top one) bugged out 4 times in a row...making him invincible. This means you have to leave and start all over again. On the fifth try, he bugged out and just didnt even attack me personally but stayed in a corner where I was able to just shoot him to death. In fact It was so slow I just left, grabbed a drink, flipped on the tv and came back when his health was getting low. Thats how bad the quest was.
(spoiler) The final quest was just as bad. They shove you and your party into an airship with camera clipping issues, of which you can barely see whats going on half the time because of it. Then Zhaitan shows up, big dragon he is (though small once you see him) and pew pew he takes a hit from the ship. Then his cut scene is sloppily cut together, making him jump around in weird ways, finally it shows him grabbing onto a pillar and bugs our some more, not once attacking you or your party. Nope, you just get on a turrent and go Pew pew pew (in short, mash the 1 button for 15 minutes). Then he dies and everyone is like "yay good job" and thats the end of it. The rewards do not even reflect beating a giant dragon who raised an entire undead continent known as Orr...maybe that was a good thing though since he just bugged out most of the time.
In short the personal quests were not polished nor ready for player consumption.
6. One of the rewards for finishing the storyline is another tome of influence. Because the game destroyed my account bound one on day one, i needed another 1000 influence to get the guild bank for the small guild I ran (mainly used by myself and one other). Upon using that 1000 influence tome (which would have unlocked the guild bank feature), i noticed the points also didnt register with the guild. This means twice I was cheated, by the game, out of the influence needed to make my personal guild functional.)
7. Looking up the problem seen in #6, the new official forums (which were also missing at launch) showed me this is a common problem. 52 pages and counting...people are experiencing the same issue. So they post their guild and server so it can get fixed for them. Great, I go to log into the forum and it asks me to accept the terms and conditions. Ok, then error. It wont let me respond to the support forums. Wonderful, using the official forums is also broken.
8. The further I progressed into high level zones, which there are few of, the more I noticed the content started to suffer. I got stuck in two rocks meshs because there was no blocking volume placed in areas in which the face normals were reversed (face normals tell the game engine which side of the mesh the texture will show on, having it show on both sides is more cpu intensive so game engines generally dont go that rout.). The only way out of getting stuck inside the rocks was to go to a way point, either way from lions arch or from within the mesh itself, I am suck paying a couple silver.
9. Wanting to buy a piece of armor from the temple of Grenth was a no go. Why? For weeks on end the temple has been bugged. Dynamic events that lead to putting the areas in Pact control get stuck. Players then exlpoit this because a non stop stream of enemies come rushing in, resulting in easy loot, xp and other such goodies. The economy already has been damaged, and this is just one of many cases where it occurs.
10. Recently more accounts have been hacked & hacked accounts result in spam bots. So my personal experience involves constantly blocking and or reporting the insane number of channel spam selling gold and leveling services. It is nearly non stop in some areas.
Honestly, If I continue to think back I can probably find 10 more to add to that list. Needless to say, some of those are experiences a player shouldnt have to have in a game that is ready for release.
As a level 80, I have to ask myself...what next? On the PvE front...it seems people are now just farming karma through a zerg that goes around in a circles for hours on end killing champion creatures. They go down so fast you barely get a hit in (this cannot be what Anet intended). The other alternative? Farm the dungeons over and over to get tokens for gear (some of which probably doesnt have the stats or sigils you want in armor) and are not all that much better than yoru cheap TP gear. If its crafting, then they made sure the ingredients were either rare or extremely expensive..and with the antifarming code they implimented, farming for materials can lead to a lot of wasted time...even for those fully decked in magic find gear. This cannot really be considered fun. Are the rewards (new skin for armor) worth it? I dont really know yet, though none of those armor skins are driving me to spend countless hours grinding or exploiting a broken event to get it. I can understand why they wouldnt want to make the stats drastically better than even cheap mob drop gear, but they should also know it is those very same stats that create the incentive.
On the PvP side... the free server transfers have resulted in players all jumping to the top pvp servers, those of which dominate the others in world vs world. The rewards are not enticing enough to cause a player really stick through it. IF one transfers to another more pvp centric server, then the expecation of intensly long wait periods just to get in occurs. If structured pvp, then great... you can compete against other players. The reward only applies to sPvP, and the only downside one can really see in it is that you are limited to the actual "battlegrounds" you can play...very limited. It does get old, and fast.
So essentially, despite Arena Net marketing a non grindy, non "WoW" kind of end game, at the moment we are left with something sadly very similar.
I have no doubt this will change in the future, and that more content will be coming our way... but it seems that at least for now, they will be busy fixing more than adding.
Anyways, after 80 and looking back, it is a bit frustrating to see GW2 in the state it is in. How some of the broken end game events havent been fixed yet and how some very basic functions cannot be relied upon to work. The personal storyline was great, but broken and anti-climatic for what they built up. I would advise those playing to delay finishing it as much as possible. I also advice those to go through the game as slow as possible, since there is nothing really happy at the end of the road at this point in time, at least based on my experiences.
Comments
Rabenwolf, great write up on the many bugs and frustrating things that we endured during the launch of this game. As many blind themselves with jaded remarks you actually clearly defined the things that are bugged and were causing many people to have issues with the game. Great work.
I too agree that with a company that preached they will release the game " When its ready" they had more issues with the game after launch then they did in the last BWE. Things they promised aren't in the game, such as Mini games, and some of the big boss fights were / are simply over hyped and pathetic. I too think most of the issues you stated and the things I am disappointed with the game will be fixed but I do believe this game has the best foundation to start with then any game I've played in over a decade.
Your recommendation to take your time with the game, personal story and such is exactly how ANET intended the game to be played. It is as they said a different type of MMORPG, as that there is absolutely no need to rush to 80 because in doing so you miss the vibrant and awesome world they created. Sure you may see some DE's and happen upon an event mid run and just sprint from heart to heart, dilusionally giving yourself a false sense of "I've seen everything". I've seen this in close friends and have shown them content they haven't seen because they hurried to 80 on 2-3 different characters.
The world, TYRIA, is the "end game". Taking a few minutes to follow NPC's after an event finished leads to further events most of the time. The majority of people who are rushing to 80 maybe know this but don't take the time to do it.
All the people I know who are complaining about "End game" have less then 200 hours game played and far less then 100% map explored.
Trying to fit square pegs of traditional end game into a circle which is guild wars 2's world is what a lot of people are trying to do. Most of which know there is no traditional end game once you hit 80 yet they still rush off to try and reach 80 then complain there isn't the traditional end game... seems a bit imature and naive to me but hey if people do that to themselves then in my book they have no room to complain. - Not saying you did this but in general.
Alot of my "you" comments weren't directed at the OP but as general statements just so nobody thinks I was pointing my fingure at him
Again Great write up!!
IamApropos
See where adventure will lead you!
My PC Specs:
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thanks for the writeup
I'm not 80 yet but i appreciate reading your experiences
EQ2 fan sites
The sPvP will hold you for a long time, really? I ask that in all seriousness. I have found the sPvP to be fairly lacking. For one, unless you create a tournament team you can't reliably play with friends which is a huge problem in my opinion. My wife and I tried to play, but most of the time we were on opposite teams...not fun at all! Then there is the fact that the maps are all very small, and the games are very short. Worst of all the objective is the same in all of them....hold points. At least SWTOR tried to come up with a new type of gameplay in Huttball, and WoW has all kinds of different objectives int their various BG's
Hey, to each their own, so if you are having fun with them, great...but I honestly question how they will hold you for a long time?!?
I feel that the launch of GW2 was fantastic. The few problems that OP mentioned did not impact me. I never bothered with the trading post nor the cash shop. I also never sent nor received mail. Never had one log in issue. I got my bonus item ring, which I was not expecting anything. The story was not bugged for me. I've also never gotten stuck.
My experience has totally been different. So while I can see and understand how some of the launch problems that OP experienced are genuine and true, not everyone had the same experience. Ditto for my experience.
As to your advice to take your time leveling...why on earth would you want to rush through the beautiful game world that Anet has created anyways?
Do not PvEers deserve soemthing to do as well then?:P
Joking aside, I am a core PvEer and I have a L80 and a L40 in this game, with over 1000 achievement points, and I have to say I simply do not understand the 'nothing to do at 80' perspective.
I am on something like 60% map completion... I have 2 more story badges to get (hell, I haven't even yet completed my main's PS), I have all of the explorable modes for all the dungeons to run at least once, I have my crafting to max, I have my legendary weapon to make, I have all the jumping puzzles to solve... I even have WvW and sPvP to dabble in when I fancy a change of pace...
End game? All I see is 'end game'
(not to mention my new ranger to level)
The OP made some pretty true observations in general though I thought.
@Grimlock I completely agree with you about "unless you create a tournament team you can't reliably with your friends"
This was a huge issue I had all the way thru all BWE's and is the main reason I do not touch sPvP at its current state.
PUG's to me in any form of structured content whether it be dungeons or PvP are just asking for problems. But making it impossible to stay on the same team with your friends is just a flawed design period.
I know more sPvP maps are goin to be released and I can understand they only released the ones they did because they want to push the E-Sports side of sPvP first, so I'm not to concerned over the current maps.
I have a Friend who is joining an E-Sports team and I can see that being quite popular but for a more casual sPvP person as I would want to be I can't accept the fact that my friends / wife can't stay on the same team with me reliably. Its just not acceptable to me. If they had such a setup in LoL the game would have failed miserably so hopefully they can fix this quickly.
IamApropos
See where adventure will lead you!
My PC Specs:
i5-3570k oc'ed @4.2GHz
8GB 1600 RAM
GTX670 oc'ed @ 1.25Ghz
Samsung 830 SSD.
I didn't encounter the email bug once, did this happen during early access? I heard the servers crashed during early access because of capacity overflow. TP was down for like a week after launch, which was a little annoying, and there's a few skillpoint locations that don't work around the game world but other than that, the launch was pretty good, better than most games.
Wait, who said I rushed anything?
I played the game a few hours a day. Every time you craft or gather materials, you gain levels. Crafting alone can get you 10 levels, so imagine if you start crafting...just using the basic materials you picked up from playing normally...you can already knock out a good chunk of your leveling. Then there is the personal storyline, just playing that normally nets you more xp. Should I die more often just to slow the pace down? If i decide to slow down and do WvWvW pvp, I am still leveling up.
The point here is that if you play the game normally, you can reach 80 in a very very short time frame. This doesnt equate "rushing" the game. My advice was more along the lines of ... avoid the personal story line until the content actually goes through a proper polish and balance phase. I would not advise those to play content that has not been properly developed due to the time frame of the games release.
Map completion also isnt really a valid means to suggest one look alternative content or tasks...primarily for the reason that if you are playing the game normally you will see it all anyways. You level up in a zone by doing the hearts, and along the way grabbing the few skill points and vistas along the way.
Anyways there is always something one could do in the game, but that doesnt make it worth your time much less quality activities. I could for example, just sit around in a FPS cooridore counting all the particle effects I see, but that doesnt make it a good time sink or means to slow the game down..so to with grinding.
Anyways please read before throwing out accusations of "rushing" a game whose mechanics make sure you level up fast regardless of what you do.
I'm nowhere near 80 yet either. As an avid explorer/pve player I would like to ask the OP a question.
At level 41 I have only 20% of the map done What's your percentage at level 80 (considering of course that the majority of the content is open world)?
I have to agree, all these complaints from all these people who obviously forgot how fun waiting in a queue or having no game to play at all for an entire week, or not being able to even see your own character while fighting feels. It's amazing we've gotten through such a horribly rough launch (/sarcasm off).
Don't get me started on the rush to the end crowd.
Good read up and most points your right, but you made some points a tiny littlebit more worse then it realy is.
MMO launches with buggs, some worse then others, we need to accept it as no studio can launch a game for millions of players and test that load in a few beta's.
What i dont see is WvW or sPvP, i asume you only did it casual or not at all.
WvW needs a thread of its own
Good write up and no gw2 player will come here to bash your post, if they do its mental fanboy behavior and should instandly be put on the ignore list.
first, even TSW now has a LFG finder as of today...as well as every other trinity system mmo....so please stop using the queue thing as a valid argument...it's null and void. I get in groups on Rift and WoW (to this day) in less than 5 minutes....typically ALOT sooner than that.
Second, the launch went fine...I guess...although some races walk like they are floating, there is complete imbalance with mobs of the same levels, alot of imbalance with mob density, a complete lack of gear itemization, copy and paste non-main story things to do.....as if they just kept moving their mouse in different parts of their map while hold CTRL and pressing V....over and over again.
But yeah...there weren't many bugs....
Actually, in this game it is.
Because you would not see it all if you levelled in a linear fashion, moving on to each higher zone as dictated by your level. Not by a long shot.
When you get to 80, all those newb and intermediate zones you didn't touch on on your way up? They are now content you can do. They all give XP (which gives you extra skill points, even at 80) from the various activities, and they all have skill points to be had. They all also have jumping puzzles, and they all have stories to be enjoyed and events to be seen and participated in. Even at 80. They even drop items for your level. All this is far from 'counting pixels' in your FPS game and give meaningful rewards to your character.
Once you get to 80 the whole game world is open to you. GW2 offers much more then a straight line. Levels in this cease to exist really when you get to 80 and should really just be ignored. This is part of what they mean when they say the whole game is end game. It is all there to be played, not ignored because it has a lower number attached to it.
I don't remember if you said in your OP... what is your completion % anyhow? That will give us a very good indicator if you have 'seen it all anyway'. What's you played time? Just for curiosities sake.
I would also be interested in how many of the 'secret' jumping puzzles you have have done as well. I found these to be excellent PvE content.
In fact, throw us up a few SS of your achievements... I just really want some kind of base line to judge what you mean by 'playing normally'. It is such a vague term and can mean very different things to different folks.
I find it amusing that most forum goers here feel it is not a valid excuse to say that there was more content they missed. As an example in Secret world it was suggested often that it only had a week's worth of content when presed on this issue many people didn't know the quests existed nevertheless where to find them. Forcing the player to explore the locations was then equated to bad design pratices. Meanwhile that is all I really see in gw2's defense and I just seem to see alot of players losing the rose tinted glasses. I just don't understand all the double standards.
Thanks, I appreciate the time you took to read it.
Bugs will exist sure, but there is also no reason to expect them to be there. In other words, its not impossible to have a bug free game (bug being based on what the player notices and experiences). With mmo's we have kind of accepted the fact that something will go wrong and tend to over look it.. but should that really be acceptable? If its server performance, ok that makes sense...networking is one of the hardest things to program and plan out.
When it comes to actual level design, scripting and working gameplay...thats another matter. This can be fixed prior to release... studios employ software that lists a set of bugs and how important they are. They are then fixed on a priority basis. A lot of what I have seen, high priority bugs, havent really been addressed fully. Most of those bugs are content based and should be fixed. I dont think any of them are a response to a patch since from what we know they shipped that way. One of the things that killed AoC, was that every patch by funcom in the early days would break the game more. It was clear there was no internal testing before applying the said patches.
I played wvwvw and sPvP heavily in the beta's, and a bit after it released. The WvWvW gave me a ton of xp just in one day, but most of the play involved stading on top of castle walls shooting down at a zerg that shoots back at you...this was fortunately one of the days in which our server was paired with some weaker servers. On a normal basis, the server I am on is completely steam rolled and no one bothers to organize and complete back. From what I found out a lot of pvp minded people just switched to the top teir pvp servers, which caused more imbalance. I am resisting doing that because it seems immoral in a gamer sort of way. As for sPvP... same map over and over with the same gameplay over and over, not a lot of fun in that to be honest. Did it and burned out on it.
There are some serious flaws with WvWvW but it does have a lot of potential, and I look forward to seeing if and when Arena Net can address it. For me pvp is the ultimate end game, but thats only if the pvp is presented and designed in a way that adds incentive and enjoyment. The zerg vs zerg in which ranged always wins out is something we have been a bit oversaturated with.
I should have known fom "potenial" that you wouldn't even comprehend the agreeable reply you recieved and assume it was directed specifically at you...
Nobody accused you of "Rushing" anything try reading the response again... Infact I'm the only person who pointed out "Rushing" but it wasn't directed at you, infact was AGREEing with you. It seems you need a hug or to chill out. Instead of jumping to conclusions because someone typed the words "RUSH" and "YOU" in a sentance, don't assume they are speaking specifically about YOU as an individual but rather, YOU as a mass of people. As in YOU people.
How many hours have you played /age? and how much global map completion do you have? Those two things will greatly indicate if everything I wrote about "Rushing" does infact fit. and your response about map completion is totally wrong. This game is ALL about map completion and exploration. Not the games fault if you play it differently then the designers intended. And its not the games fault if you expect something from the game that wasn't intended to be there in the first place. Such as insentive with gear power progression at level 80.
IamApropos
See where adventure will lead you!
My PC Specs:
i5-3570k oc'ed @4.2GHz
8GB 1600 RAM
GTX670 oc'ed @ 1.25Ghz
Samsung 830 SSD.
In the same vein I dont believe I was responding to you personally. There was this connotation over all that if you are level 80, and have finished the personal storyline, AND have gotten crafting up that you are some how rushing the game. I do not believe you can rationally suggest it was otherwise.
That said you do not help much less contribute when you assume and go on the offensive. The fact you try to include belittling remarks and show case a confirmation bias does your feedback/opinion in this thread a disservice.
Furthermore please tell me where arena net specifically states "this game is all about map completion"?
I can tell you that they said this, and I quote, "GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;" before launch and after launch they said the opposite.
They also said this"When you play an RPG, you want to experience a compelling and memorable storyline. You want your choices to matter. You want your actions to leave their mark on the world. Let’s start demanding those things of MMOs too."...and I agree. Lets demand that for Guild Wars 2. The storyline has the potential but its over all execution and polish were not up to par. It is clear it didnt meet the milestone the studio set out to accomplish prior to release.
If you read the GW2 Manifesto released by Arena Net, it does not once mention map completion as an important part of the game or philosophy. Why is that? Because its part of their achievement system and achievements are not content, they are time sinks...usually used for titles or a virtual check list for those who are interested in such things.
You can keep calling me wrong if you want, but Ill just have to agree to disagree...especially given the objective information provided by Anet and its design philosphy...as well as what they said they were going to achieve and what they actually delivered...which are quite extreme. It is still a great game, but flawed and through playing the game normally, based on my own experiences, presented both as observation and opinion, I was able to come to a different conclusion on the state of the game as well as its design from which I originally had.
This may bother some who have a strong emotional response tied to the game and or their identity which is linked to the game and or franchise/brand loyalty.
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Whether you are 80 soon or later completely depends on your playstyle. And there is no wrong way to play really.
1. Players who move on to the next area the moment they are high enough lvl, generally earn xp faster (content for your real lvl gives better xp). Especially if they also do dungeons when they become available to them.
2. Players who stay behind and complete maps, tend to go slower. Because completing maps takes relatively a long time. Especially when you also do other starting areas first. Then you simply get low xp for your real (not downscaled) lvl from DE and hearts.
For 1. levelling doesn't slow down. When playing content of your toon's real lvl, each lvl will take about the same time. As opposed to other MMO's where it really slows down a lot. So getting to 80 is a lot faster compared to other high lvl MMO's.
Now, this also means imo that lvl80 is not really the end. It was clearly not meant as a huge achievement if you look at the lvling process. Also because of the downscaling and how low lvl areas because of that stay relevant, there is no real endgame. Not even PVP, because you can jump in at lvl1. So I agree with others, that as long as if there are areas you didn't visit, you are simply not done with PVE content.
I do agree with the OP about the trading post/mail system issues early on though. As for log in issues, I didn't experience anything like that myself.
Why not play in lower lvl areas. The bosses in large events usually go for the biggest threat, which is most of the time the downscaled high lvl toon. I bet some of you lvl80's get facerolled against those amped up bosses (not melee bosses ofc, they are too easy to kite):p