Guild Wars 2 contradicts itself, and is left standing in a weird place.

AegisSaga

The game tries to sell you the idea that you shoulnd't grind, that gear / level doesn't really matter and that the game starts at level 1, not at endgame. But it's not true, you see:

 

- My damage almost tripled in WvW going from level 79 to 80 with exotics. Gear and level do make a huge difference in WvW. After experiencing it that way, I almost feel useless when entering with my low level alts. In the top tier of servers, most are 80 now. If you enter there as level 25, you'll get demolished.

 

- You kill faster and easier with gear in the open world, even when downscaled. At level 70, I had average gear and when downscaled, sure enogh, mobs died faster than when I had the zone's level; however, when I got to 80 and geared myself, then went back to that downscaled zone, mobs died almost twice as fast. 

 

- Dungeons become easier. I played the same dungeon both when I had average gear and then at 80 with exotics, there IS a difference. 

 

- SPvP is truly the only aspect of the game where gear / level doesn't make you more powerful, for obvious reasons. 

 

Now I'm actually thankful that there's some kind of carrot on a stick. I certainly enjoy progression, it's why I play RPGs and not FPS (although even FPS nowadays implement some form of progression). But even though there IS a reason to progress, the game tries to deny it implementing ridiculous mechanics. You can't farm a zone for too long, yet if you want to craft your gear by yourself you must do so. You can't grind dungeons for long, yet if you want the gear rewards you must do so. You can't grind DE's for long, yet if you want the karma gear you must do so. The game is bascially telling you: "Hey, you want to progress? Sure, just do this dungeon 80 times. But oh, wait, don't." Right now, if you hit 80 and want a max stat gear set, you must do either:

 

- Make 40-60 gold and buy it. This is a huge gold grind, coupled with teleportation / repair costs.

 

- Run a dungeon 80 times. Sure, dungeons are fun the first 4-5 times or so. But when you realize you need at least 8 runs for ONE piece of gear, the whole thing goes from "Hmm, this is fun." to "PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!". 

 

- Do about 720 DEs. Yes, 720*320 ~= 250,000 karma that you need. 

 

BUT WAIT, you want to gear yourself according to Precision/Power/Crit to maximize your specific Thief build? Then no, I don't care how much you like DEs, you have to farm gold or dungeons. Oh, what's that, you want to try a Condition damage build now with that Thief of yours? Sure, just grind for ANOTHER gear set again! The current endgame in GW2 is a bigger grind than raiding two times a week ever was. The concept that "you don't need to grind" is nullified by the fact that you DO become more powerful with gear. Then factor in alts, or...if you're brave...legendaries (which, for example, require 2,000,000 karma besides other things). It's a grim outlook indeed. But, ahhh, here's the catch: 

 

You can take a level 1 character all the way to 80 and get full exotics for the low price of $200.00. That's right, you can skip all the game's leveling content, and get a max stat gear set for real money! What a deal! If that's not pay to win, I don't know what is. I really like GW2's leveling, but it's endgame feels to be in the stone ages more so than a next gen MMO.

 

 

Rokurgepta

Sorry but Pay to Win implies you can get something with money that you can't get in game any other way. That you are BUYING an advantage that the others can't get unless they too spend money. Simply not true in GW2.

eggy08

Hmmm... Pass. Popcorn anyone?

gessekai332

Originally posted by AegisSaga

- My damage almost tripled in WvW going from level 79 to 80 with exotics. Gear and level do make a huge difference in WvW. After experiencing it that way, I almost feel useless when entering with my low level alts. In the top tier of servers, most are 80 now. If you enter there as level 25, you'll get demolished.

have you compared yellows vs exotics? The difference is marginal, yet you can buy yellows for 1/5 the cost of a same type exotic. Even if you compare same lvl green vs same lvl exotic the difference wont be that drastic that a sucky player can be a good player. If you are going to force me to pull out numbers for you I will do so because I have done the calculations(power:actual damage, weapon dmg:actual damage, precision:crit%, condition dmg:actual dmg, etc) before at a time when I was serious about sPVP builds. How about comparing lvl 79 exotics with lvl 80 exotics? pretty sure the difference there is pretty small as well. You have to compare related things you cant just pull out comparisons from nowhere. 

Also, I have played in WvWvW when I was a low lvl engineer and other people were much higher than me. I did not get "demolished." In fact, i killed tons of people higher lvl than me 1v1 because I outplayed them.  The only time level makes a big difference is if you are not high enough to unlock the skills you want for your build.

 

Now I'm actually thankful that there's some kind of carrot on a stick. I certainly enjoy progression, it's why I play RPGs and not FPS (although even FPS nowadays implement some form of progression). But even though there IS a reason to progress, the game tries to deny it implementing ridiculous mechanics. You can't farm a zone for too long, yet if you want to craft your gear by yourself you must do so. You can't grind dungeons for long, yet if you want the gear rewards you must do so. You can't grind DE's for long, yet if you want the karma gear you must do so. The game is bascially telling you: "Hey, you want to progress? Sure, just do this dungeon 80 times. But oh, wait, don't." Right now, if you hit 80 and want a max stat gear set, you must do either:

 They're not telling you that you cant grind x for too long. In the dungeons' case, they are just trying to balance dungeons  difficulty relative to each other. That single CoF route was way to easy for an explorable. I know because I farmed that garbage for the past several days in addition to play normal explorable routes in other areas. With regards to DE farming I have never run into karma problems unless i try to exploit the crap out of a single quick spawning DE event like many people try to do.

BUT WAIT, you want to gear yourself according to Precision/Power/Crit to maximize your specific Thief build? Then no, I don't care how much you like DEs, you have to farm gold or dungeons. Oh, what's that, you want to try a Condition damage build now with that Thief of yours? Sure, just grind for ANOTHER gear set again! The current endgame in GW2 is a bigger grind than raiding two times a week ever was. The concept that "you don't need to grind" is nullified by the fact that you DO become more powerful with gear. Then factor in alts, or...if you're brave...legendaries (which, for example, require 2,000,000 karma besides other things). It's a grim outlook indeed. But, ahhh, here's the catch: 

 

You can take a level 1 character all the way to 80 and get full exotics for the low price of $200.00. That's right, you can skip all the game's leveling content, and get a max stat gear set for real money! What a deal! If that's not pay to win, I don't know what is. I really like GW2's leveling, but it's endgame feels to be in the stone ages more so than a next gen MMO.

 Again, you can buy yellow gear for a fraction of the cost and be just as viable. Exotics are there just for the min-maxers in the game. For people who want to play for skill or to test out builds you are still perfectly viable in easily attainable yellow gear. I know this because I am one of those people. Also, if people really want it, they will pay for gold no matter what game it is, its just that they will use illegal methods instead. Here, buying gold on the AH is discouraged/penalized because the gem->gold conversion rate is pretty brutal. honestly, if you are buying money with gold i feel sad for you because of the relative ease  you can make money in the game.  

Conclusion: You don't have to grind if you dont want to. The grind is only there for people who are addicted to achieving the "best" gear no matter how insignificant the difference is compared to other gear.

 

Nadia

Originally posted by AegisSaga

The game tries to sell you the idea that you shoulnd't grind, that gear / level doesn't really matter and that the game starts at level 1, not at endgame. But it's not true, you see:

- You kill faster and easier with gear in the open world, even when downscaled. At level 70, I had average gear and when downscaled, sure enogh, mobs died faster than when I had the zone's level; however, when I got to 80 and geared myself, then went back to that downscaled zone, mobs died almost twice as fast. 

- Dungeons become easier. I played the same dungeon both when I had average gear and then at 80 with exotics, there IS a difference. 

1. exotics make a difference but are not required to complete dungeons

2. downscaling from upper levels makes you more powerful because you still have access to better gear / Traits / Skills

 

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dynamic_level_adjustment

 Skills and equipment are retained, so the area is easier because of this, but should still be challenging to play.

 

wheres the contradiction ?

PaRoXiTiC

You can't be serious....

 

dude it took me litteral 13 days to grind out a full set of exotic karma armor and from the grinding I had enough gold to buy all exoctic accessories and both exotic longbow and greatsword. Full exotics in less than 2 weeks. 

 

I'm not even a hardcore gamer. 

bcbully

 

lunarwitch00

its amusing to say the least

 

they are pulling moves of a recently release game

 

people are farming its gets nerfed

people are doing dungeons it gets nerfs

 

you do to many events

kill to many mobs

run dungeons to fast

you get no rewards

diminished returns on gameplay

wait

it was tried  already see how well that worked out

 

ps.

when you think about

its almost like a stamina fatigue system.

 

one last thing the game is well done overall with a few issues

but that kinda stuff  is definately bad for the game at least from my perspective

bcbully

Originally posted by lunarwitch00

its amusing to say the least

 

they are pulling moves of a recently release game

 

people are farming its gets nerfed

people are doing dungeons it gets nerfs

 

you do to many events

kill to many mobs

run dungeons to fast

you get no rewards

dimished returns on gameplay

wait

it was tried  already see how well that worked out

 

ps.

when you think about

its almost like a stamina fatigue system.

 

one last thing the game is well done overall with a few issues

but that kinda stuff like that is definately bad

lunarwitch00

haha yes yes

bad typeing

bubaluba

Uh thats one huge grind! I don't know one game where you need to grind so much. Good thing is gave up on this game after few hours

Laromuss

Originally posted by lunarwitch00

its amusing to say the least

 

they are pulling moves of a recently release game

 

people are farming its gets nerfed

people are doing dungeons it gets nerfs

 

you do to many events

kill to many mobs

run dungeons to fast

you get no rewards

diminished returns on gameplay

wait

it was tried  already see how well that worked out

 

ps.

when you think about

its almost like a stamina fatigue system.

 

one last thing the game is well done overall with a few issues

but that kinda stuff  is definately bad for the game at least from my perspective

starting to sound like a PWI game(s), might as well put fatigue on crafting to add to the list. 

RizelStar

Originally posted by eggy08
Hmmm... Pass. Popcorn anyone?

Ahh here you go bro

Loke666

You compare this to the gear grind of Wow? Getting exotic gear in GW2 aint that hard and go relatively fast.

Dungeon gear and legendary weapons is another matter but they never promised those werent supposed to be a grind, in fact they talked about grinding for cosmetic stuff since they revealed they were working on the game.

Sure, there is indeed gear you need in the game and you will spend some time grinding it but I still cant think of another modern MMO with less grind.

Eir_S

Originally posted by bubaluba
Uh thats one huge grind! I don't know one game where you need to grind so much.

I can think of several.

Loke666

Originally posted by bubaluba
Uh thats one huge grind! I don't know one game where you need to grind so much. Good thing is gave up on this game after few hours

How about Wow? LOTRO, EQ2, Vanguard, TOR, AoC...

Heck, many people have already leveled up to max and gotten the exotic armor 3 weeks after launch. The legendary and dungeon stuff doesnt have better stats, just better skins.

So please, how do any of those games have less grind? 

Gibbonici

As far as WvW goes, I'd agree that being level 80 with exotics gives a huge advantage and that as time goes on it'll become more hostile to non-80s as more players reach the cap. I'm level 57 or 58 at the moment but am very active in WvW. I die very, very often if I get caught on my own without any supporting players nearby but it doesn't stop me from WvWing.

 

The way I see it is that until you're level 80 your main role is support, whether that's reviving fallen allies, laying damage down to help your higher level players, scouting, sentrying or whatever. This is how you learn how to handle your class in a mass-PvP environment and all those deaths are part of that learning process. You can't take dying personally and you can't go into it with the expectation that you're going to win all your fights, because that's not going to happen. Hell, it's not going to happen when you get to 80.

 

The other thing with WvW is personal kills (or deaths) are never as important as understanding the strategies that are going on and the group tactics that can swing a zerg vs zerg battle. The trick is to know where to put yourself to make the biggest difference for your side and you don't get that simply by dinging 80, you get it through experience.

 

 

Rokurgepta

Originally posted by bubaluba
Uh thats one huge grind! I don't know one game where you need to grind so much. Good thing is gave up on this game after few hours

Then you dont know any other MMOs and I am glad you gave up too. BYE

sonoggi

the only thing i agree with you on is the downleveling issue. even at lvl 30 getting downscaled to lvl 15 or so, im 3-shotting mobs. ive also noticed that being +2-3 levels on a particular area will make difficulty trivial. i hope ANet soon revisits scaling in PVE, in general, including and especially DE's vs. large crowds. this being said, GW2 has, by far, the most challenging PVE of any recent MMO and it makes WoW's leveling process look like a cakewalk. 

mazut

Non of this is what you call it. Ofc exotic gear is better then rare... But after that you dont have any better and you may play with it for 5 years without any disadvantage. Ofc dungeons become a bit easier, with food, more stats and BETER Understanding of the game as time pass... Builds and traits made for specific encounter...

I kind of agree with the downscaling. I think they should make Hard Mode down scaling. Triger that every player can switch. Normal downscale as it is and HM- scale to the exact lvl or even level under the area. Still the traits will be full, but it will present bettet challenge.

observer

The only issue i agree with you is on crafting.  It takes so much materials trying to level up 2 at the same time.  Currently, i clear one zone, then go craft with all the mats that i gathered, and it's still not enough.  I always run out of scales, fangs, etc.  Maybe i'm just doing it wrong though.

UtukuMoon

Originally posted by sonoggi
the only thing i agree with you on is the downleveling issue. even at lvl 30 getting downscaled to lvl 15 or so, im 3-shotting mobs. ive also noticed that being +2-3 levels on a particular area will make difficulty trivial. i hope ANet soon revisits scaling in PVE, in general, including and especially DE's vs. large crowds. this being said, GW2 has, by far, the most challenging PVE of any recent MMO and it makes WoW's leveling process look like a cakewalk. 

First, you mean it's just your opinion,thought i would get that in because the die hards like to use it on anyone who has anything negative to say about the game.Secondly,how recent are you talking,i'm all ears on this one.

Are you talking in the last year lol.

MikeJezZ

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Originally posted by gessekai332

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have you compared yellows vs exotics? The difference is marginal, yet you can buy yellows for 1/5 the cost of a same type exotic.

---

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Could you please tell me where? Im level 80 still running around with 70-76 gear.

I have only found the karma vendor that sells items for 42k a piece.

Where do I find faster obtainable gear that makes my 80 worthy?

Xasapis

Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

You can't be serious....

 dude it took me litteral 13 days to grind out a full set of exotic karma armor and from the grinding I had enough gold to buy all exoctic accessories and both exotic longbow and greatsword. Full exotics in less than 2 weeks. 

 I'm not even a hardcore gamer. 

You grinded 250.000 karma in 13 days and you're not hardcore? You're deluding yourself. I did the same thing and it involves spending all your free time into the game, at least 8+ hours per day.

 

As for the difference between Exotic, Rares and Masterworks, see for yourselves:

Exotic: http://www.gw2db.com/items/66825-berserkers-destroyer-greatsword

Rare: http://www.gw2db.com/items/9452-berserkers-greatsword-of-air

Masterwork: http://www.gw2db.com/items/9435-berserkers-greatsword-of-agony

I don't know about you, but I call the diference significant, especially considering that the difference accumulates with a full set + the full set bonuses.

sonoggi

i dont blame ANet for not catering to such a fickle, high-maintenance crowd like the raiders/powergamers. to hell with such a mentality. seriously. 

mazut

Originally posted by MikeJezZ

 

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Originally posted by gessekai332

---

have you compared yellows vs exotics? The difference is marginal, yet you can buy yellows for 1/5 the cost of a same type exotic.

---

---

 

Could you please tell me where? Im level 80 still running around with 70-76 gear.

I have only found the karma vendor that sells items for 42k a piece.

Where do I find faster obtainable gear that makes my 80 worthy?

Black Lions ofc Its not that expensive, actualy by now you should be able to buy full exotic set, maybe even tow