Its too bad that you dont understand that having more choice is good. Its too bad that you dont see that they took the choice to pick up skills that maybe you wanted. Not everyone copied a template. You seem to forget that no everyone plays to raid. I wound down the thread because you just dont understand. Suck the teet and praise the mighty WoW. Its people like you that could never see past the crap and basked in the false glory of WoW that made me quit in the first place.
The game was dumbed down. It allows blizzard to easierly build content. Realize that. Peace.
Oh, and I guess the saying goes.... You cant fix people who only see what they want to see.
Originally posted by Random_mage Its too bad that you dont understand that having more choice is good. Its too bad that you dont see that they took the choice to pick up skills that maybe you wanted. Not everyone copied a template. You seem to forget that no everyone plays to raid. I wound down the thread because you just dont understand. Suck the teet and praise the mighty WoW. Its people like you that could never see past the crap and basked in the false glory of WoW that made me quit in the first place.
The game was dumbed down. It allows blizzard to easierly build content. Realize that. Peace.
Oh, and I guess the saying goes.... You cant fix people who only see what they want to see.
This!
- I liked the different talent trees my hunter had! And mixing my own builds, without going for templates. Not to be now be forced into one set of few choices!
- I liked my hunter having melee weapon(s) and melee skills! Not to them just been taken away after so many years!
- I liked the different talent trees of my druid and that I could use all the shapeshift forms whenever I wanted! Now I am forced into only one at a time!
This whole dumbification has gone too far.... way too far!
agree with OP about MoP completely, played the beta and was appauled at how little content they put into an expansion expecting people to pay for it after they took a whole year. They had an excuse with Cata because they completely redid the entire 1-60 experience but this time, smh.
when it comes to GW2, i can understand if you've rushed to the end of level 80, i can understand if you're not the explorer type which is a major part of this title, but it sounds to me more like you are tired of mmo's in general.
Originally posted by Random_mage Its too bad that you dont understand that having more choice is good. Its too bad that you dont see that they took the choice to pick up skills that maybe you wanted. Not everyone copied a template. You seem to forget that no everyone plays to raid. I wound down the thread because you just dont understand. Suck the teet and praise the mighty WoW. Its people like you that could never see past the crap and basked in the false glory of WoW that made me quit in the first place.
The game was dumbed down. It allows blizzard to easierly build content. Realize that. Peace.
Oh, and I guess the saying goes.... You cant fix people who only see what they want to see.
This!
- I liked the different talent trees my hunter had! And mixing my own builds, without going for templates. Not to be now be forced into one set of few choices!
- I liked my hunter having melee weapon(s) and melee skills! Not to them just been taken away after so many years!
- I liked the different talent trees of my druid and that I could use all the shapeshift forms whenever I wanted! Now I am forced into only one at a time!
This whole dumbification has gone too far.... way too far!
It's too bad that you guys cannot see the difference between the illusion of choice and real choice. Keep pressing that button Pavlovian dogs.
I'm going to give you 10 dollars.
You can:
Press a button every 10 minutes to receive a dollar until you have a total of 10.
-or-
I will give you a dollar every ten minutes until you have a total of 10. Plus you can choose whether it comes with one of the following: ice cream, pizza or a movie.
In the end, which is actually providing you choice?
You want us to think we've been fooled by blizzard on this expansion, but if you look hard, you may have to admit you've been their fool for the last 2 expansions.
Stop telling me about how Blizzard has given you fewer buttons to push and tell me an actual power or skill you no longer have access too. Which ACTUAL power or skill you used to 'CHOOSE' is no longer available in game.
Originally posted by stratasaurus First off this expansion actually has more talent tree custamization then Cata did and maybe WOTLK also. Sure you had talent points you got each level but really you did not have much choice where to put them. The trees have been very linear for a long time the last time you really got the choice of where in your spec to your points was BC. So getting rid of the linear trees did not take away anything from you. Second now you can change your talents at any time for a pretty low cost. What this means is that for certain boss encounters you will have to switch and customize your talents your can't just pick one set and stay with them. If anything there is more choices because before you got almost all the talents in your spec tree. Now you can only have 6 out of 18 or 1/3 of them active at once.
I agree that there was not much of a choice when they killed the 51 point trees and forced you to invest 31 points in same tree, and its alot harder to choose 6 out of 18 than 31 out of 36-40
The thing is, in the horrible cataclysm skill trees, once you found out which talents weren't worth the points, the decision where to spend your points was made up for you, because you had to spend 31 points in that tree.
I am glad they came up with a better system for MoP, it reminds me of the Vanilla skill trees. In vanilla, when I was leveling I just put points in whatever looked interesting. I might put a point in arms then a point in fury. I didn't even care about filling a skill tree.
Now, in the MoP skill system, when I spent my points I didn't even look it up on line. I just read what each talent did and spent points just like Vanilla.
I put point in talents that complemented my playstyle. And because they are easily switched. When I do a boss I need a specific talent for, I will switch it out. but when I go back to questing I will just switch back to the talents I like.
I love the new system. I love, I actually feel like I have choice in my talents, which I haven't felt like since Vanilla.
Sadly, nothing else to really play, aside from GW2.. but that's not really all that much fun either..
Have you tried The Secret World? No, I am not trying to go fanboy on you. Just thinking if you are looking for something relatively different then it might work for you. Something of an aquired taste but when everything else tastes bland its time to try something different.
Originally posted by Random_mage Its too bad that you dont understand that having more choice is good. Its too bad that you dont see that they took the choice to pick up skills that maybe you wanted. Not everyone copied a template. You seem to forget that no everyone plays to raid. I wound down the thread because you just dont understand. Suck the teet and praise the mighty WoW. Its people like you that could never see past the crap and basked in the false glory of WoW that made me quit in the first place.
The game was dumbed down. It allows blizzard to easierly build content. Realize that. Peace.
Oh, and I guess the saying goes.... You cant fix people who only see what they want to see.
This!
- I liked the different talent trees my hunter had! And mixing my own builds, without going for templates. Not to be now be forced into one set of few choices!
- I liked my hunter having melee weapon(s) and melee skills! Not to them just been taken away after so many years!
- I liked the different talent trees of my druid and that I could use all the shapeshift forms whenever I wanted! Now I am forced into only one at a time!
This whole dumbification has gone too far.... way too far!
It's too bad that you guys cannot see the difference between the illusion of choice and real choice. Keep pressing that button Pavlovian dogs.
I'm going to give you 10 dollars.
You can:
Press a button every 10 minutes to receive a dollar until you have a total of 10.
-or-
I will give you a dollar every ten minutes until you have a total of 10. Plus you can choose whether it comes with one of the following: ice cream, pizza or a movie.
In the end, which is actually providing you choice?
You want us to think we've been fooled by blizzard on this expansion, but if you look hard, you may have to admit you've been their fool for the last 2 expansions.
Stop telling me about how Blizzard has given you fewer buttons to push and tell me an actual power or skill you no longer have access too. Which ACTUAL power or skill you used to 'CHOOSE' is no longer available in game.
man dont try...its pointless. they only want to flame.
the game is way better than it was. bosses at hc's drop blue gear. its diff to get an epic anymore. valor cant buy gear anymore, but upgrades what you already have. the game at last separates the raiders from casuals.
the map is great. the best so far blizz has ceate.
quests are almost the same as always, but you know something? after i played gw2 i appreciated them more. i preffer them than doing DE zergs.
i also love trinity. once again gw2 reminded me how nice is to feel you have a real role. i love tanking and hell i love to heal ppl. i care when they die, so i dont let them.
pokemons are really fun. i m 36 years old and i cant say its for childs. its for fun ffs. not for gear or anything. just for fun. if you dont want them, dont play them. no 1 forces you to do it.
pandas are nice too. ppl hate pandas and say its kiddie, but they like asura...
anyway imo MoP is superior than any other exp blizz has released until now.
I disagree with this post. If you actually take the time to look at the talent trees there are pretty damn good. Each ability you select has alot more freaking value to your build. Not being able to train your abilities, who the F*** cares, makes leveling easier not always having to go to the trainer and saves you some gold.
I believe you are just flamming to flame cuz of something.
With the talents - for instance on my pally - lvl 15, do i want a cd of 70% increased speed, a perma speed buff for only 30% with 3x holy power up, or do I want to slow people down with judgements. Those are al big decisions and all viable for each spec. Sure some are maybe a little more geared towards one specific roll - however then that all changes dependent upon PVE or PVP.
I just find your claims false with new talent system. It makes things more interesting if anything - and choices have more value rather than dumping 5 points to increase my passive crit. Now everything i select i get to see and use.
I disagree with this post. If you actually take the time to look at the talent trees there are pretty damn good. Each ability you select has alot more freaking value to your build. Not being able to train your abilities, who the F*** cares, makes leveling easier not always having to go to the trainer and saves you some gold.
I believe you are just flamming to flame cuz of something.
With the talents - for instance on my pally - lvl 15, do i want a cd of 70% increased speed, a perma speed buff for only 30% with 3x holy power up, or do I want to slow people down with judgements. Those are al big decisions and all viable for each spec. Sure some are maybe a little more geared towards one specific roll - however then that all changes dependent upon PVE or PVP.
I just find your claims false with new talent system. It makes things more interesting if anything - and choices have more value rather than dumping 5 points to increase my passive crit. Now everything i select i get to see and use.
This is why they dumb down MMO's.
So, in the old system you pushed the same button as every other of your class and spec pushed at the exact same level resulting in a maxed toon with the exact same abilities as every other of your class and spec. You feel this made you 'unique' because of 'choices' .
- I don't think you applied the word 'dumb' correctly.
Tell me, what did you 'choose' in your spec which made you unique from all others of your class/spec in the old system? Which of these talents is no longer available to you in the current version? How was your toon built so that no one else had your skills/abilities? Show me how you were unique from everyone else before and how you are the same as everyone now. Do a side by side comparison of your toon then and your toon now. Then do a side by side of your toon then with someone elses toon of the same spec. Look for the differences - you won't find any. Now if you took the same toon today, and compared them, you could be the same spec but potentially have 6 completely different skills/powers from someone of your exact same class/build. You absolutely cannot point out 6 different things between two of the same in the old system. If you had 2 retribution pally's side by side in the old system, they would look and perform almost in the exact same way as any other.
Stop pushing pavlov's buttons and look at what really has been provided for choice and you will see that all your 'choices' from the past were nothing but a talent button pushing illusion.
Originally posted by Random_mage Side by side? Sure. Logged in feral druid. It was now tank speced. Not shapeshifted. Missinf six abilities on my hot bar.
Check your spell book some skills got renamed ormergedbetwenn cat an bear. Again you probably didn't look, most likely you logged on saw you had less abilities and went "nye nye I got less buttons nye". I am a feral guardin as well and I can guarantee you the class is better now. Then again I have had a month with new specs when you had 6hrs. Which , at this point, I'm starting to doubt you have logged in at all.
At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir
Personally i like the way the new talent system works ok , Its not horrid, Went from spending time researching onine best specs to just picking what uitility talents i want for my guy without having to do research into what is the must have spec
People whining about lack of choice is funny , Cause i never had a choice in my spec or tree, Not if iwanted to raid or pvp,
The not training is an asset it makes things so much easier and i dont have to spend money training my abilities anymore which i like , No idea why this would be anything but a plus rpg or not.
No offense u can still roleplay going to trainers and learning stuff if u want, Thats what rpgs are all about anyways, They aren't about actually spending 50 silver to train this or 2 gold to train this,
Just because the frst rpg used a certain mechanic doesnt meant its a must have ,
Personally i like the way the new talent system works ok , Its not horrid, Went from spending time researching onine best specs to just picking what uitility talents i want for my guy without having to do research into what is the must have spec
People whining about lack of choice is funny , Cause i never had a choice in my spec or tree, Not if iwanted to raid or pvp,
The not training is an asset it makes things so much easier and i dont have to spend money training my abilities anymore which i like , No idea why this would be anything but a plus rpg or not.
No offense u can still roleplay going to trainers and learning stuff if u want, Thats what rpgs are all about anyways, They aren't about actually spending 50 silver to train this or 2 gold to train this,
Just because the frst rpg used a certain mechanic doesnt meant its a must have ,
^this. I actually feel that te new skill learning system adds to the role playing. It makes more sense for me to evolve as a char and in doing so I discover new attacks. This to me makes it that much more rewarding than going to a random guy and learning spells. Granted you still have to go to a trainer for the professions but that also makes sense ther too. Yiu can't build stuff from scratch, you need blue prints or someone to tech you, or a lot of time to come up with something new. I find that MoP brings and overall balance to the RPG inside WoW.
At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir
The classes are now extra small cookie cutters, because they have been trimmed and spells taken for granted in previous expansions may no longer be available due to being cut or shoved into specs. Despite the illusion of choice there is none, other than glyphs which unfortunately take time or gold to obtain, or both.
Originally posted by Random_mage Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone
Lets stop pretending there was choice or uniqueness in the old system, there wasn't.
Oh there was choice, but unless you picked the right one, you had no chance of doing something. But thats problem in many games. A lot of choices, but something is always overpowered for that particular class, that you are not "allowed" to play anything else.
I cant agree, with you. Here an example about vanilla wow: I was a rogue and i was spec combat cause i liked having 2 swords and fighting like a blade dancer.
Now if im rember correctly, almost all my rogue guildmate was going for dagger and assassination. They ask me: why you dont re-spec like us, you will do more dps in raid, i said because i dont like the style you play, sneak and backstab is not for me, i prefer frienzy style with sword.The subjec was closed. Did someone force me to change no.
If you had a guild that demanded everyone was optimal then yes you would have been kicked.
I knew a guy who used to play as a, 'battlemage', he liked meleeing and fireblasting people. When the guild I was in wanted to start raiding he wasn't part of that setup because he refused to acknowledge how WoW dungeons/raid system worked and refused to change he's own ideas on how to play.
Just because you played a certain way and were allowed to doesn't mean there wasn't a bestest spec for either pvp or pve encounters. WoW is in essence a simple maths game, best spec+knowing rotation+awareness+ gear/stat stacked correctly=good chance of winning an encounter. It's why things like elitest jerks can claim they know whats best because they have data to back up what is the best spec/rotation.
The old talent system is actually poorer then this version. Why? Because a lot of the choices were just passive increases that most people rarely noticed. Now you do have a choice on what you pick, that isn't dependent on your spec, and is noticeable. Can people really claim they'd like to put 5 talent points into a hit rating talent and not actually want to pick an ability choice they use?
As a fury warrior, for instance, I can choose between having Shockwave/Bladestorm or the jump thingie. All of them have different applications and I can have any one of them regardless, so my choices are down to how I prefer to play.
Of course it's not perfect, I believe this is now the fifth time they've changed the talent system and I doubt it'll be the last. There could do with some more options, also some of the classes have very poor choices IMO, (As the OP says Shaman's and I found Rogues to be a bit boring).
Personally I think the, 'WoW talent system is dumbed down for kiddies', is a lazy catch all argument. It looks simplisitic on the outside but actually gives you more choices then before.
Originally posted by Random_mage Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone
Lets stop pretending there was choice or uniqueness in the old system, there wasn't.
Oh there was choice, but unless you picked the right one, you had no chance of doing something. But thats problem in many games. A lot of choices, but something is always overpowered for that particular class, that you are not "allowed" to play anything else.
I cant agree, with you. Here an example about vanilla wow: I was a rogue and i was spec combat cause i liked having 2 swords and fighting like a blade dancer.
Now if im rember correctly, almost all my rogue guildmate was going for dagger and assassination. They ask me: why you dont re-spec like us, you will do more dps in raid, i said because i dont like the style you play, sneak and backstab is not for me, i prefer frienzy style with sword.The subjec was closed. Did someone force me to change no.
If you had a guild that demanded everyone was optimal then yes you would have been kicked.
I knew a guy who used to play as a, 'battlemage', he liked meleeing and fireblasting people. When the guild I was in wanted to start raiding he wasn't part of that setup because he refused to acknowledge how WoW dungeons/raid system worked and refused to change he's own ideas on how to play.
Just because you played a certain way and were allowed to doesn't mean there wasn't a bestest spec for either pvp or pve encounters. WoW is in essence a simple maths game, best spec+knowing rotation+awareness+ gear/stat stacked correctly=good chance of winning an encounter. It's why things like elitest jerks can claim they know whats best because they have data to back up what is the best spec/rotation.
The old talent system is actually poorer then this version. Why? Because a lot of the choices were just passive increases that most people rarely noticed. Now you do have a choice on what you pick, that isn't dependent on your spec, and is noticeable. Can people really claim they'd like to put 5 talent points into a hit rating talent and not actually want to pick an ability choice they use?
As a fury warrior, for instance, I can choose between having Shockwave/Bladestorm or the jump thingie. All of them have different applications and I can have any one of them regardless, so my choices are down to how I prefer to play.
Of course it's not perfect, I believe this is now the fifth time they've changed the talent system and I doubt it'll be the last. There could do with some more options, also some of the classes have very poor choices IMO, (As the OP says Shaman's and I found Rogues to be a bit boring).
Personally I think the, 'WoW talent system is dumbed down for kiddies', is a lazy catch all argument. It looks simplisitic on the outside but actually gives you more choices then before.
^This. I am starting to think that all the people that are complaining about the new talent revamp havnt actually thought much about it. If you really think about it and remove yourself from the problem and see each sides pros and cons you will see that the new talents are way better because they do give an actual choice to the player instead of the illusion of choice that the previous one did. Dont believe me? Just go to any site like elitist jerks and they will give you POINTERS on talents but ultimetely will tell you that either talent is good and to choose what you enjoy the most. That, to me, is the true definition of choice, and it makes for ever char different than the next.
At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir
So, making 6 choices, 15 levels apart, is more than making a choice every other level for 85 levels? Slow power increase, by your choices then, changed to bliz deciding whats best, and then giving you 6 total options across all trees? We are going in circles. Youll say that its the better because you get 6 additional skills, and I will argue that they limited choices and tell me how to play... Adnauseum...
This topic has strayed far.
I dont feel that adding pandas, monks and changing skill trees will bring in a massive flux of old players past the month of subs they paid. its just not new or innovative enough. A lot of people didnt like cata, but it added something for rerolls to do (new quests and story lines... Drab end game), I just dont see mysts doing more than increasing the race to end game for monks, then doing new raids.. Just dont see it for me.
Originally posted by Random_mage So, making 6 choices, 15 levels apart, is more than making a choice every other level for 85 levels? Slow power increase, by your choices then, changed to bliz deciding whats best, and then giving you 6 total options across all trees? We are going in circles. Youll say that its the better because you get 6 additional skills, and I will argue that they limited choices and tell me how to play... Adnauseum...
This topic has strayed far.
I dont feel that adding pandas, monks and changing skill trees will bring in a massive flux of old players past the month of subs they paid. its just not new or innovative enough. A lot of people didnt like cata, but it added something for rerolls to do (new quests and story lines... Drab end game), I just dont see mysts doing more than increasing the race to end game for monks, then doing new raids.. Just dont see it for me.
No, waht we are saying is that on the previous talent tree every single choice you made was the same for everyone because it was a no brainer. IN the previous model, you could choose between 9% more base damage or a random skill.. everyone with a brain went wiht the 9% more damamge or their mitigation counterparts if they were tranking. THe previous talent didnt leave room for people to spread out since you were either dumb or not, that simple. This new system OVERALL gives you more choice. While I admitt that having them 15 lvls a part is a bit tough, we never argued about the frequecy of talents but rather your claims of the system being dumbed down. If you say that you dont like them being so spread out, and I would have to agree with you, however as a whole, this system is leaps and bounds better ahn its predecesor.
This varies from person to person. While I do agree that panda is overall marketed to a NEW type of wow players some of the old ones might come back. To be MoP feels more like a transcitional phase, where the old players leave and new players start playing. I gave the example of the father leaving WoW but passing down the torch, so to speak, to his son. Ive seen that happen a few times in WoW and I wouldnt be surprised if that was the case overall. The people that played WoW since launch are already tired, but they know the game enough to let their kids or younger family memebers play.
At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir
You spoke exactly to my point in saying... Anyone with a brain would choose x, and if you didnt you must be stupid.. Blizzard took that away.
It goes back to dumbing down. You no longer are forced to think (or in most cases go grab the optimal spec from a website). And I can go say... Now in tier one for paladin they tell you to get a speed buff. 3 different choices but all speed buffs. There are a few utility skills, but the same was true of the old system......
Originally posted by Random_mage You spoke exactly to my point in saying... Anyone with a brain would choose x, and if you didnt you must be stupid.. Blizzard took that away.
It goes back to dumbing down. You no longer are forced to think (or in most cases go grab the optimal spec from a website). And I can go say... Now in tier one for paladin they tell you to get a speed buff. 3 different choices but all speed buffs. There are a few utility skills, but the same was true of the old system......
No, in the old system there were no viable options besides the cookie cutter builds. If the choice s between being stupid and not then there IS no choice.
Going back to not dumbing down, while you are given 3 mobility buffs, they all are important and their usefulness depends on personal playstyles. I myself chose persuit of justice, but I have seen paladins use speed of light or long arm of e law. Basically 3 paladins each doing something differently. That is the beauty of the system, it allows for true customization and makes you think about the choices you make.
At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir
Originally posted by Random_mage You spoke exactly to my point in saying... Anyone with a brain would choose x, and if you didnt you must be stupid.. Blizzard took that away.
It goes back to dumbing down. You no longer are forced to think (or in most cases go grab the optimal spec from a website). And I can go say... Now in tier one for paladin they tell you to get a speed buff. 3 different choices but all speed buffs. There are a few utility skills, but the same was true of the old system......
No, in the old system there were no viable options besides the cookie cutter builds. If the choice s between being stupid and not then there IS no choice.
Going back to not dumbing down, while you are given 3 mobility buffs, they all are important and their usefulness depends on personal playstyles. I myself chose persuit of justice, but I have seen paladins use speed of light or long arm of e law. Basically 3 paladins each doing something differently. That is the beauty of the system, it allows for true customization and makes you think about the choices you make.
There is very little choice when it came to end-game builds... actually no choice. And the new talent system is no different. I've looked at the Warr as that was my main in WoW while there are 3 choices each are geared towards one of the trees/roles or lacks synergy with a tree or build so it not really something with choices. Saying you can either charge twice in a row, less cooldown of a charge, or a charge with stun ins't really choices or are very limited as eventually one type will be proven mose effective and the cookie cutter choice will be set in place. i.e. Bladestom, Shockwave, or Dragons Roar pretty much translates Arms, Prot, Fury chocies. There as much choice as there was is the old system.
People act like their "CHOICE" was so relevant that they could choose to be a melee swinging mage tank. Talent choices were never like that. The choices almost universally revolved around PvE vs PvP builds. The revamped talent trees are 100% revolved around choice and playstyle, only without the need to spend points on the "must have" talents.
I haven't decided if it's batter or worse, but I do know it isn't game breaking and the people who are crying about it are seriously overreacting. It isn't that big of a deal.
So far I have been enjoying my return to WoW...a lot.
Originally posted by Random_mage Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone
Lets stop pretending there was choice or uniqueness in the old system, there wasn't.
Ummmmm......yes, yes there was. You could choose to spec all they way down one tree and be completely different than the other trees, or you could mix-and-match from each tree and be a snowflake, too.
"Gimping" was once a valid choice.
Umm, no that never was an option. The main reason was the trees where designed to be picked 1 at a time. But like always a few have to ruin it for everybody. People started getting op builds by specking half on 1 tree and half on another completely braking the game. Now, if you actually think about it and don't go "whaaaa whaaaa, change is bad whaaa" you will see that each option within a tier is meaning full and makes a huge difference between char and char. I could be a paladin with repentance for pve, but then another paladin might want a 30 sec stun or a 50% movement speed debuff. It all comes down to playstyles, which at the end means more diversity. They are not telling you how to play like tar score claims, they are giving you parameters and letting yiu go free. Now it doesn't matter if yiu rather have a charge on your Druid or prefer a 15% permanent speed increase.
I have no idea what you are saying other then Vanilla & BC was great because you could choose every tree a talent could go in and yes in the end cookie cutter builds did come to the forefront. However, there were plenty of times this creativeness worked well for raids and groups. Complaining about the talent trees from WOTLK on is pointless, I stopped playing when the choices and yes they were real choices before you could view what a person spec was, before you could view their gear, these choices are no longer present when you have to spend 31 to get the next tree, nail in the coffin. I find it amusing that due to GW2 that you have classes that can cast while moving, its too bad EQ2 and Vanguard have always had this but its one more example of how blizzard does not actually create anything new, but rather steals an idea and tries to improve upon it as if it was theirs to begin with. What a waste
Comments
I wound down the thread because you just dont understand. Suck the teet and praise the mighty WoW. Its people like you that could never see past the crap and basked in the false glory of WoW that made me quit in the first place.
The game was dumbed down. It allows blizzard to easierly build content. Realize that.
Peace.
Oh, and I guess the saying goes.... You cant fix people who only see what they want to see.
Currently playing Real Life..
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This!
- I liked the different talent trees my hunter had! And mixing my own builds, without going for templates. Not to be now be forced into one set of few choices!
- I liked my hunter having melee weapon(s) and melee skills! Not to them just been taken away after so many years!
- I liked the different talent trees of my druid and that I could use all the shapeshift forms whenever I wanted! Now I am forced into only one at a time!
This whole dumbification has gone too far.... way too far!
agree with OP about MoP completely, played the beta and was appauled at how little content they put into an expansion expecting people to pay for it after they took a whole year. They had an excuse with Cata because they completely redid the entire 1-60 experience but this time, smh.
when it comes to GW2, i can understand if you've rushed to the end of level 80, i can understand if you're not the explorer type which is a major part of this title, but it sounds to me more like you are tired of mmo's in general.
It's too bad that you guys cannot see the difference between the illusion of choice and real choice. Keep pressing that button Pavlovian dogs.
I'm going to give you 10 dollars.
You can:
Press a button every 10 minutes to receive a dollar until you have a total of 10.
-or-
I will give you a dollar every ten minutes until you have a total of 10. Plus you can choose whether it comes with one of the following: ice cream, pizza or a movie.
In the end, which is actually providing you choice?
You want us to think we've been fooled by blizzard on this expansion, but if you look hard, you may have to admit you've been their fool for the last 2 expansions.
Stop telling me about how Blizzard has given you fewer buttons to push and tell me an actual power or skill you no longer have access too. Which ACTUAL power or skill you used to 'CHOOSE' is no longer available in game.
agree, well said
Have you tried The Secret World? No, I am not trying to go fanboy on you. Just thinking if you are looking for something relatively different then it might work for you. Something of an aquired taste but when everything else tastes bland its time to try something different.
All die, so die well.
man dont try...its pointless. they only want to flame.
the game is way better than it was. bosses at hc's drop blue gear. its diff to get an epic anymore. valor cant buy gear anymore, but upgrades what you already have. the game at last separates the raiders from casuals.
the map is great. the best so far blizz has ceate.
quests are almost the same as always, but you know something? after i played gw2 i appreciated them more. i preffer them than doing DE zergs.
i also love trinity. once again gw2 reminded me how nice is to feel you have a real role. i love tanking and hell i love to heal ppl. i care when they die, so i dont let them.
pokemons are really fun. i m 36 years old and i cant say its for childs. its for fun ffs. not for gear or anything. just for fun. if you dont want them, dont play them. no 1 forces you to do it.
pandas are nice too. ppl hate pandas and say its kiddie, but they like asura...
anyway imo MoP is superior than any other exp blizz has released until now.
but thats me
This is why they dumb down MMO's.
So, in the old system you pushed the same button as every other of your class and spec pushed at the exact same level resulting in a maxed toon with the exact same abilities as every other of your class and spec. You feel this made you 'unique' because of 'choices' .
- I don't think you applied the word 'dumb' correctly.
Tell me, what did you 'choose' in your spec which made you unique from all others of your class/spec in the old system? Which of these talents is no longer available to you in the current version? How was your toon built so that no one else had your skills/abilities? Show me how you were unique from everyone else before and how you are the same as everyone now. Do a side by side comparison of your toon then and your toon now. Then do a side by side of your toon then with someone elses toon of the same spec. Look for the differences - you won't find any. Now if you took the same toon today, and compared them, you could be the same spec but potentially have 6 completely different skills/powers from someone of your exact same class/build. You absolutely cannot point out 6 different things between two of the same in the old system. If you had 2 retribution pally's side by side in the old system, they would look and perform almost in the exact same way as any other.
Stop pushing pavlov's buttons and look at what really has been provided for choice and you will see that all your 'choices' from the past were nothing but a talent button pushing illusion.
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Check your spell book some skills got renamed ormergedbetwenn cat an bear. Again you probably didn't look, most likely you logged on saw you had less abilities and went "nye nye I got less buttons nye". I am a feral guardin as well and I can guarantee you the class is better now. Then again I have had a month with new specs when you had 6hrs. Which , at this point, I'm starting to doubt you have logged in at all.
At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir
Personally i like the way the new talent system works ok , Its not horrid, Went from spending time researching onine best specs to just picking what uitility talents i want for my guy without having to do research into what is the must have spec
People whining about lack of choice is funny , Cause i never had a choice in my spec or tree, Not if iwanted to raid or pvp,
The not training is an asset it makes things so much easier and i dont have to spend money training my abilities anymore which i like , No idea why this would be anything but a plus rpg or not.
No offense u can still roleplay going to trainers and learning stuff if u want, Thats what rpgs are all about anyways, They aren't about actually spending 50 silver to train this or 2 gold to train this,
Just because the frst rpg used a certain mechanic doesnt meant its a must have ,
^this. I actually feel that te new skill learning system adds to the role playing. It makes more sense for me to evolve as a char and in doing so I discover new attacks. This to me makes it that much more rewarding than going to a random guy and learning spells. Granted you still have to go to a trainer for the professions but that also makes sense ther too. Yiu can't build stuff from scratch, you need blue prints or someone to tech you, or a lot of time to come up with something new. I find that MoP brings and overall balance to the RPG inside WoW.
At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir
If you had a guild that demanded everyone was optimal then yes you would have been kicked.
I knew a guy who used to play as a, 'battlemage', he liked meleeing and fireblasting people. When the guild I was in wanted to start raiding he wasn't part of that setup because he refused to acknowledge how WoW dungeons/raid system worked and refused to change he's own ideas on how to play.
Just because you played a certain way and were allowed to doesn't mean there wasn't a bestest spec for either pvp or pve encounters. WoW is in essence a simple maths game, best spec+knowing rotation+awareness+ gear/stat stacked correctly=good chance of winning an encounter. It's why things like elitest jerks can claim they know whats best because they have data to back up what is the best spec/rotation.
The old talent system is actually poorer then this version. Why? Because a lot of the choices were just passive increases that most people rarely noticed. Now you do have a choice on what you pick, that isn't dependent on your spec, and is noticeable. Can people really claim they'd like to put 5 talent points into a hit rating talent and not actually want to pick an ability choice they use?
As a fury warrior, for instance, I can choose between having Shockwave/Bladestorm or the jump thingie. All of them have different applications and I can have any one of them regardless, so my choices are down to how I prefer to play.
Of course it's not perfect, I believe this is now the fifth time they've changed the talent system and I doubt it'll be the last. There could do with some more options, also some of the classes have very poor choices IMO, (As the OP says Shaman's and I found Rogues to be a bit boring).
Personally I think the, 'WoW talent system is dumbed down for kiddies', is a lazy catch all argument. It looks simplisitic on the outside but actually gives you more choices then before.
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
^This. I am starting to think that all the people that are complaining about the new talent revamp havnt actually thought much about it. If you really think about it and remove yourself from the problem and see each sides pros and cons you will see that the new talents are way better because they do give an actual choice to the player instead of the illusion of choice that the previous one did. Dont believe me? Just go to any site like elitist jerks and they will give you POINTERS on talents but ultimetely will tell you that either talent is good and to choose what you enjoy the most. That, to me, is the true definition of choice, and it makes for ever char different than the next.
At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir
We are going in circles. Youll say that its the better because you get 6 additional skills, and I will argue that they limited choices and tell me how to play... Adnauseum...
This topic has strayed far.
I dont feel that adding pandas, monks and changing skill trees will bring in a massive flux of old players past the month of subs they paid. its just not new or innovative enough. A lot of people didnt like cata, but it added something for rerolls to do (new quests and story lines... Drab end game), I just dont see mysts doing more than increasing the race to end game for monks, then doing new raids.. Just dont see it for me.
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No, waht we are saying is that on the previous talent tree every single choice you made was the same for everyone because it was a no brainer. IN the previous model, you could choose between 9% more base damage or a random skill.. everyone with a brain went wiht the 9% more damamge or their mitigation counterparts if they were tranking. THe previous talent didnt leave room for people to spread out since you were either dumb or not, that simple. This new system OVERALL gives you more choice. While I admitt that having them 15 lvls a part is a bit tough, we never argued about the frequecy of talents but rather your claims of the system being dumbed down. If you say that you dont like them being so spread out, and I would have to agree with you, however as a whole, this system is leaps and bounds better ahn its predecesor.
This varies from person to person. While I do agree that panda is overall marketed to a NEW type of wow players some of the old ones might come back. To be MoP feels more like a transcitional phase, where the old players leave and new players start playing. I gave the example of the father leaving WoW but passing down the torch, so to speak, to his son. Ive seen that happen a few times in WoW and I wouldnt be surprised if that was the case overall. The people that played WoW since launch are already tired, but they know the game enough to let their kids or younger family memebers play.
At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir
Oh look a bash wow thread on mmorpg.com well I never.
You can never please all people with a product its impossible to do.
Im having enough fun.
I was given MoP with a 60D game card as a gift.
Having fun with my friends and old guildies at the moment.
Some quests... need a bit more patience (I'm looking at you WORM!) but overall, I like it.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
It goes back to dumbing down. You no longer are forced to think (or in most cases go grab the optimal spec from a website). And I can go say... Now in tier one for paladin they tell you to get a speed buff. 3 different choices but all speed buffs. There are a few utility skills, but the same was true of the old system......
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No, in the old system there were no viable options besides the cookie cutter builds. If the choice s between being stupid and not then there IS no choice.
Going back to not dumbing down, while you are given 3 mobility buffs, they all are important and their usefulness depends on personal playstyles. I myself chose persuit of justice, but I have seen paladins use speed of light or long arm of e law. Basically 3 paladins each doing something differently. That is the beauty of the system, it allows for true customization and makes you think about the choices you make.
At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir
There is very little choice when it came to end-game builds... actually no choice. And the new talent system is no different. I've looked at the Warr as that was my main in WoW while there are 3 choices each are geared towards one of the trees/roles or lacks synergy with a tree or build so it not really something with choices. Saying you can either charge twice in a row, less cooldown of a charge, or a charge with stun ins't really choices or are very limited as eventually one type will be proven mose effective and the cookie cutter choice will be set in place. i.e. Bladestom, Shockwave, or Dragons Roar pretty much translates Arms, Prot, Fury chocies. There as much choice as there was is the old system.
People act like their "CHOICE" was so relevant that they could choose to be a melee swinging mage tank. Talent choices were never like that. The choices almost universally revolved around PvE vs PvP builds. The revamped talent trees are 100% revolved around choice and playstyle, only without the need to spend points on the "must have" talents.
I haven't decided if it's batter or worse, but I do know it isn't game breaking and the people who are crying about it are seriously overreacting. It isn't that big of a deal.
So far I have been enjoying my return to WoW...a lot.
I have no idea what you are saying other then Vanilla & BC was great because you could choose every tree a talent could go in and yes in the end cookie cutter builds did come to the forefront. However, there were plenty of times this creativeness worked well for raids and groups. Complaining about the talent trees from WOTLK on is pointless, I stopped playing when the choices and yes they were real choices before you could view what a person spec was, before you could view their gear, these choices are no longer present when you have to spend 31 to get the next tree, nail in the coffin. I find it amusing that due to GW2 that you have classes that can cast while moving, its too bad EQ2 and Vanguard have always had this but its one more example of how blizzard does not actually create anything new, but rather steals an idea and tries to improve upon it as if it was theirs to begin with. What a waste