I have made a small engine in both DirectX and OpenGL, once you can code one in DirectX you can code one in OpenGL (mind you, I'm talking a very small engine, with some basic culling and very basic phong rendering, I am not a good coder by any means).
Originally posted by CalmOceans Originally posted by AzaqinI actually run three distinct hard drives with alternate OS on them: Win XP, Win 7, and Linux.
Cool, do you have a good solution on boot to pick your OS or do you use the BIOS and change boot sequence?
hmm there is a trap here, I had w7 and w8 on separate hdd's. seems windows 8 overrides the booloader on windows 7 and when windows 8 is formatted or otherwise removed then win7 fails to boot.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
At first I was just using the BIOS, then I switched to a physical toggle switch to set an active drive before power up. That worked well, but for a while now I've actually been using Acronis Disk Director. I quite like it.
EDIT: Yeah, I had heard the Win 8 gets all pissy with alternate OS loaded on the same rig. Just another reason I doubt I will use it.
Originally posted by AzaqinI actually run three distinct hard drives with alternate OS on them: Win XP, Win 7, and Linux.
Cool, do you have a good solution on boot to pick your OS or do you use the BIOS and change boot sequence?
hmm there is a trap here, I had w7 and w8 on separate hdd's. seems windows 8 overrides the booloader on windows 7 and when windows 8 is formatted or otherwise removed then win7 fails to boot.
Right, Windows 8 does something to speed up the boot loader, there is still some fear amongst the Linux community that Windows 8 locks down the boot loader, I haven't been following the news lately so maybe I'm wrong..I think Microsoft said they would allow other OS and this was just a beta issue..but I'm not 100% sure.
Originally posted by Uhwop If MS went the the closed OS route it could be the best thing to ever happen to Linux.
I could see game developers switching to open GL and a linux based OS, as well as pachaging a copy of the OS with the games at first to get people using it. People would be pissed at first because they wouldn't understand what was going on, but as long as the instal was as simple as put the disc on the cd rom and or clck a couple of buttons after the download, I don't see them saying no to the game if that's what it takes to play it.
I would hate to develop 'installers' for the vast variations of Linux and its distributions..
I don't doubt it. It would be a huge pai in the ass, but I think developers would be highly motivated if they found they would have to start giving a portion what they make to MS. Not sure how many people have noticed this, but the amount we pay for the games isn't exactly scaling with what it's costing developers to make them. We've been lucky enough to not have had the price of our games go up that much considering how much more money developers are spending to make them.
Either the developers will do what they need to in order to move off of windows, or we WILL be paying more for games.
That is if they actually go with the closed OS. I personally don't think they're that stupid.
I see this as more of MS already tried this and failed, so they're trying it again. Games for windows wasn't really designed as an outstanding feature of windows, a lot of people don't even know what games for windows really was. MS has been trying to bring that kind of 360 gaming experience over to the PC for a few years now. Live actually integrates to the 360, it's not just your XBox live account. Anyone with an Xbox live account can use that same account on the PC and talk to friends playing on the Xbox.
It's like they realized that you can't just throw live onto windows and expect people know about it; let alone use it.. So they develop 8 around the concept of a unified gaming platform like enviroment.
That, and microsoft is always trying to use apples ideas. I mean, do people really think MS invented windows? Hell, do people really think that MS ever created anything?
They can't even create an original retail enviroment, the Windows store in the mall by my house looks exactly like the apple one. It's like someone at MS was like, "hey guys, if we look exactly like apple people won't be able to tell the diffence and we'll sell more stuff." Imitation may be the sincerest form of flatery, but in MS case it's really just seems like a lack of creative inovation.
[mod edit] Microsoft has been releasing new products every 3 years since forever. Microsoft gave plenty of time atleast a year for them to start working on developing for the operating system. In the past couple years they made it quite clear they are no longer supporting xp, you can't buy it anywhere. Microsoft sells 90 % of all pcs. New pcs will soon ship with windows 8. It's quite inevitable that people will be forced to change. As blizzard has stated they no longer are going against microsoft, instead they will put efforts into making sure it works becuase it would be idiotic for their business.
Linux has been here for 20 years and still has under 1 % market share and nothing the compares with direct x. So valve are just idiots that put too much hope into linux and now have to deal with the amount of money they wasted.
But hey if you hate microsoft so much make your own operating system it's only going to take billions of dollars of research and development and maybe 10-20 years.
You want to talk about monopolys look at apple they tie services to their hardware which is 3 times as expensive. So looking at them isn't going to save you.
Company's make money by releasing updates to their products. Mostly they just release complete products because people are acustomed to not pay for patches.
Company's like ea release games every year and are now trying to charge subs on crap like battlefield.
But hey windows 8 is only like 40 or 50 dollars, 3 times cheaper then any operating system even was or 10 dollars upgrade.
On the other hand apple sells updates for 50 dollars and makes it sound like it only costs that much for the operating system but that's not how it works. You first need to buy and overpriced pc for 2-3k.
The NT family of Windows systems was fashioned and marketed for higher reliability business use. The first release was NT 3.1 (1993), numbered "3.1" to match the consumer Windows version, which was followed by NT 3.5 (1994), NT 3.51 (1995), NT 4.0 (1996), and Windows 2000, which is the last NT-based Windows release that does not include Microsoft Product Activation. Windows NT 4.0 was the first in this line to implement the "Windows 95" user interface (and the first to include Windows 95's built-in 32-bit runtimes).
Microsoft then moved to combine their consumer and business operating systems with Windows XP that was released on October 25, 2001. It came both in home and professional versions (and later niche market versions for tablet PCs and media centers); they also diverged release schedules for server operating systems. Windows Server 2003, released a year and a half after Windows XP, brought Windows Server up to date with Windows XP. After a lengthy development process, Windows Vista was released on November 30, 2006 for volume licensing and January 30, 2007 for consumers. Its server counterpart, Windows Server 2008 was released in early 2008. On July 22, 2009, Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2 were released as RTM (release to manufacturing) while the former was released to the public 3 months later on October 22, 2009.
Originally posted by Purutzil Good news, if this goes in this trend we might see a new rise in Linux and we will be having to pay $100 less for our new computers with having free operating systems that are more efficient then Windows or Macs. If some of the Linux developers are able to smooth out the experience for less tech savy people, we might see windows slide from its throne if they keep going down a slippery slope.
At the risk of going off topic, you know what the problem with Linux is?
They cant make up their god damn minds. There is no uniform framework for anything.
That And applications have to be built with a simple 90's mindset so the system as a whole is always 'rock solid'.
I think you are confusing Linux (the kernel) with the packed distributions (Debian, Ubuntu, Redhat etc) that contain loads of 3rd party software.The reason that you can compile applications for any linux platform (apart from certain technical limitations due to hardware ofc) is because there is a standard framework.
Also, without better support from graphics card manufacturers, the distribution developers can't do much in terms of games support.
Originally posted by PurutzilGood news, if this goes in this trend we might see a new rise in Linux and we will be having to pay $100 less for our new computers with having free operating systems that are more efficient then Windows or Macs. If some of the Linux developers are able to smooth out the experience for less tech savy people, we might see windows slide from its throne if they keep going down a slippery slope.
At the risk of going off topic, you know what the problem with Linux is?They cant make up their god damn minds. There is no uniform framework for anything.That And applications have to be built with a simple 90's mindset so the system as a whole is always 'rock solid'.
I think you are confusing Linux (the kernel) with the packed distributions (Debian, Ubuntu, Redhat etc) that contain loads of 3rd party software.The reason that you can compile applications for any linux platform (apart from certain technical limitations due to hardware ofc) is because there is a standard framework.
Also, without better support from graphics card manufacturers, the distribution developers can't do much in terms of games support.
Nope not confused at all..
As i posted before, It would be nice to have a standard like directx for linux. Rather than having multiple api's and such (read dependencies)
which can be-or will get; old,defunct, incompatible and or not supported by their developers. New kernel update? library now incompatible? your in trouble.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Honestly I think Linux would have a better shot if it wasn't open source and someone actually developed it with a plan for sale. Most people aren't political about their software, but they will try something "new" if they see it for sale.
Honestly I think Linux would have a better shot if it wasn't open source and someone actually developed it with a plan for sale. Most people aren't political about their software, but they will try something "new" if they see it for sale.
I think the linux community (and I feel somewhat part of it even though I had many RL issues to deal with so I haven't been able to contribute anything lately) would object to any form of commercialisation. However, I think most people now realise that full time developers for Linux need to make a living, there is a change, Ubuntu has introduced a deal with Amazon, Mint uses DuckDuckHunt as a basic search engine (can change it with about:config), you can buy t-shirts, merchandise, some distro offer bootable USB or CD images for a small fee, etc. I think most realise that there needs to be some form of revenue stream to support the major distros, and Mint, Fedora, Ubuntu have revenue streams and Gnome is backed by Red Hat which has no issue supporting a big team of developers.
Honestly I think Linux would have a better shot if it wasn't open source and someone actually developed it with a plan for sale. Most people aren't political about their software, but they will try something "new" if they see it for sale.
There are many commerical LInux distributions that you can "buy".
Well what is really sold is support & some small propietary applications but you can do it.
Linux while still have many problems and still not as 'friendly' as Windows or Mac - have gone LONG way since hobbyst-indie OS years ago.
I'm glad to see more studios taking a stand on this.
Windows 8 is just bad news waiting to happen. Monetization has no place in an OS. I have no intention of getting Win 8, and I'm glad I'm not alone in that.
Originally posted by Purutzil Good news, if this goes in this trend we might see a new rise in Linux and we will be having to pay $100 less for our new computers with having free operating systems that are more efficient then Windows or Macs. If some of the Linux developers are able to smooth out the experience for less tech savy people, we might see windows slide from its throne if they keep going down a slippery slope.
Because of Windows 8 i am considering using Linux. Would change in a heartbeat if it worked better with my games. This just underlines that we need more competition and choise for OS on PC.
Currently playing: AoC, RIFT, Champions Online, DDO, LORTO, STO and Tribes: Ascend Have Played: TSW, SWG, AO, EVE, WOW, EQ, EQ2, SW:TOR, GW,CoH, DCUO, RotMG, WAR,
Originally posted by Ichmen i dont know why ANYONE would want to cert for win8.. if MS follows its typical OS launch win8 will be a pile of manure so you will have to wait for win8 SP2 for a stable OS or win9 or whatever number they use...
We are on the down side of the Windows good/crap alternating release pattern, aren't we? Heh.
I'd say wait for Win 9, but they're due to rename it completely (again) too.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Thebigthrill I also read that this would all but eliminate small indie developers.
No.
The microsoft store model is exactly the same as any other online store. They take about 30% of the profit. This is normal.
People have not hated it on iPhone and Android be course there has never really been any other way on those devices. The PC on the other hand already have a huge eco system for online sales: Steam, Origin, GameStop (formerly Implulse) being among the more well known. MS wants to push these guys out, so they can get the same OS vendor monopoly that Apple has on iOS and Google more or less have on Android.
I hope this whole win 8 certification and store thing falls massively flat on its arse.
HOW DARE Microsoft charge me console prices for games when they haven't subsidized my hardware. It's pure cheek to try a console pricing system on something that isn't their hardware.
Every pc gamer should be against win 8
IF WIN 8 SUCCEEDS YOU WILL PAY 20-40% MORE FOR YOUR GAMES
There's tons of demos showing Unigine Heaven on Linux with OpenGL4 in comparison to Windows on DX11 and OpenGL is only missing the tesselation, which can aswell be done via CUDA for example.
There's really nothing about modern games that couldn't be done without DX without loosing anything.
Sure, OpenGL needs better support, but that's all.
In the end, thats is not really what stops games from being released on Linux. The real issue is that there is not real clear target standard platform. You are in for support hell when you release on Linux.
Linux works well in the confines of teh open source where the distro developers can adapt all software to fit thier specific whims. Games developers are NOT going to open source thier code, thus you hit the pain of pure binary distribution in Linux land. Try and take a binary from a 5 year old distro and run it on a current version, odds are it will fail. On the other hand I have Windows games from 1997 happily running on my Win 7.
Microsoft do make xboxes, games for xboxes and other consoles cost more money because the hardware is subsidized so they can take a cut on game sales.
I never brought in apple mac to the discussion.
But even if I did, I dont see the point. MS is an OS vendor, so is Apple and Google. MS want to do what the other guys are doing.
I think they are wrong to try and do that, as I hate the monopoly shop idea. (If you ask me, what Apple/Google is doing there is MUCH worse than what MS ever did in the past, but thats just my personal oppinion.)
Comments
Cool, do you have a good solution on boot to pick your OS or do you use the BIOS and change boot sequence?
hmm there is a trap here, I had w7 and w8 on separate hdd's. seems windows 8 overrides the booloader on windows 7 and when windows 8 is formatted or otherwise removed then win7 fails to boot.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
At first I was just using the BIOS, then I switched to a physical toggle switch to set an active drive before power up. That worked well, but for a while now I've actually been using Acronis Disk Director. I quite like it.
EDIT: Yeah, I had heard the Win 8 gets all pissy with alternate OS loaded on the same rig. Just another reason I doubt I will use it.
Right, Windows 8 does something to speed up the boot loader, there is still some fear amongst the Linux community that Windows 8 locks down the boot loader, I haven't been following the news lately so maybe I'm wrong..I think Microsoft said they would allow other OS and this was just a beta issue..but I'm not 100% sure.
lol "That's all"? That's everything!
For a software where the sole purpose is to support games and graphics, without "support" their entire reason to exist goes out the window.
I don't doubt it. It would be a huge pai in the ass, but I think developers would be highly motivated if they found they would have to start giving a portion what they make to MS. Not sure how many people have noticed this, but the amount we pay for the games isn't exactly scaling with what it's costing developers to make them. We've been lucky enough to not have had the price of our games go up that much considering how much more money developers are spending to make them.
Either the developers will do what they need to in order to move off of windows, or we WILL be paying more for games.
That is if they actually go with the closed OS. I personally don't think they're that stupid.
I see this as more of MS already tried this and failed, so they're trying it again. Games for windows wasn't really designed as an outstanding feature of windows, a lot of people don't even know what games for windows really was. MS has been trying to bring that kind of 360 gaming experience over to the PC for a few years now. Live actually integrates to the 360, it's not just your XBox live account. Anyone with an Xbox live account can use that same account on the PC and talk to friends playing on the Xbox.
It's like they realized that you can't just throw live onto windows and expect people know about it; let alone use it.. So they develop 8 around the concept of a unified gaming platform like enviroment.
That, and microsoft is always trying to use apples ideas. I mean, do people really think MS invented windows? Hell, do people really think that MS ever created anything?
They can't even create an original retail enviroment, the Windows store in the mall by my house looks exactly like the apple one. It's like someone at MS was like, "hey guys, if we look exactly like apple people won't be able to tell the diffence and we'll sell more stuff." Imitation may be the sincerest form of flatery, but in MS case it's really just seems like a lack of creative inovation.
[mod edit] Microsoft has been releasing new products every 3 years since forever. Microsoft gave plenty of time atleast a year for them to start working on developing for the operating system. In the past couple years they made it quite clear they are no longer supporting xp, you can't buy it anywhere. Microsoft sells 90 % of all pcs. New pcs will soon ship with windows 8. It's quite inevitable that people will be forced to change. As blizzard has stated they no longer are going against microsoft, instead they will put efforts into making sure it works becuase it would be idiotic for their business.
Linux has been here for 20 years and still has under 1 % market share and nothing the compares with direct x. So valve are just idiots that put too much hope into linux and now have to deal with the amount of money they wasted.
But hey if you hate microsoft so much make your own operating system it's only going to take billions of dollars of research and development and maybe 10-20 years.
You want to talk about monopolys look at apple they tie services to their hardware which is 3 times as expensive. So looking at them isn't going to save you.
Company's make money by releasing updates to their products. Mostly they just release complete products because people are acustomed to not pay for patches.
Company's like ea release games every year and are now trying to charge subs on crap like battlefield.
But hey windows 8 is only like 40 or 50 dollars, 3 times cheaper then any operating system even was or 10 dollars upgrade.
On the other hand apple sells updates for 50 dollars and makes it sound like it only costs that much for the operating system but that's not how it works. You first need to buy and overpriced pc for 2-3k.
The NT family of Windows systems was fashioned and marketed for higher reliability business use. The first release was NT 3.1 (1993), numbered "3.1" to match the consumer Windows version, which was followed by NT 3.5 (1994), NT 3.51 (1995), NT 4.0 (1996), and Windows 2000, which is the last NT-based Windows release that does not include Microsoft Product Activation. Windows NT 4.0 was the first in this line to implement the "Windows 95" user interface (and the first to include Windows 95's built-in 32-bit runtimes).
Microsoft then moved to combine their consumer and business operating systems with Windows XP that was released on October 25, 2001. It came both in home and professional versions (and later niche market versions for tablet PCs and media centers); they also diverged release schedules for server operating systems. Windows Server 2003, released a year and a half after Windows XP, brought Windows Server up to date with Windows XP. After a lengthy development process, Windows Vista was released on November 30, 2006 for volume licensing and January 30, 2007 for consumers. Its server counterpart, Windows Server 2008 was released in early 2008. On July 22, 2009, Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2 were released as RTM (release to manufacturing) while the former was released to the public 3 months later on October 22, 2009.
I think you are confusing Linux (the kernel) with the packed distributions (Debian, Ubuntu, Redhat etc) that contain loads of 3rd party software.The reason that you can compile applications for any linux platform (apart from certain technical limitations due to hardware ofc) is because there is a standard framework.
Also, without better support from graphics card manufacturers, the distribution developers can't do much in terms of games support.
Nope not confused at all..
As i posted before, It would be nice to have a standard like directx for linux.
Rather than having multiple api's and such (read dependencies)
which can be-or will get; old,defunct, incompatible and or not supported by their developers. New kernel update? library now incompatible? your in trouble.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Honestly I think Linux would have a better shot if it wasn't open source and someone actually developed it with a plan for sale. Most people aren't political about their software, but they will try something "new" if they see it for sale.
I think the linux community (and I feel somewhat part of it even though I had many RL issues to deal with so I haven't been able to contribute anything lately) would object to any form of commercialisation. However, I think most people now realise that full time developers for Linux need to make a living, there is a change, Ubuntu has introduced a deal with Amazon, Mint uses DuckDuckHunt as a basic search engine (can change it with about:config), you can buy t-shirts, merchandise, some distro offer bootable USB or CD images for a small fee, etc. I think most realise that there needs to be some form of revenue stream to support the major distros, and Mint, Fedora, Ubuntu have revenue streams and Gnome is backed by Red Hat which has no issue supporting a big team of developers.
There are many commerical LInux distributions that you can "buy".
Well what is really sold is support & some small propietary applications but you can do it.
Linux while still have many problems and still not as 'friendly' as Windows or Mac - have gone LONG way since hobbyst-indie OS years ago.
I'm glad to see more studios taking a stand on this.
Windows 8 is just bad news waiting to happen. Monetization has no place in an OS. I have no intention of getting Win 8, and I'm glad I'm not alone in that.
Because of Windows 8 i am considering using Linux. Would change in a heartbeat if it worked better with my games. This just underlines that we need more competition and choise for OS on PC.
Currently playing: AoC, RIFT, Champions Online, DDO, LORTO, STO and Tribes: Ascend
Have Played: TSW, SWG, AO, EVE, WOW, EQ, EQ2, SW:TOR, GW,CoH, DCUO, RotMG, WAR,
We are on the down side of the Windows good/crap alternating release pattern, aren't we? Heh.
I'd say wait for Win 9, but they're due to rename it completely (again) too.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
No.
The microsoft store model is exactly the same as any other online store. They take about 30% of the profit. This is normal.
People have not hated it on iPhone and Android be course there has never really been any other way on those devices. The PC on the other hand already have a huge eco system for online sales: Steam, Origin, GameStop (formerly Implulse) being among the more well known. MS wants to push these guys out, so they can get the same OS vendor monopoly that Apple has on iOS and Google more or less have on Android.
HOW DARE Microsoft charge me console prices for games when they haven't subsidized my hardware. It's pure cheek to try a console pricing system on something that isn't their hardware.
Every pc gamer should be against win 8
IF WIN 8 SUCCEEDS YOU WILL PAY 20-40% MORE FOR YOUR GAMES
Apple make macs
Microsoft don't make pcs
Microsoft do make xboxes, games for xboxes and other consoles cost more money because the hardware is subsidized so they can take a cut on game sales.
In the end, thats is not really what stops games from being released on Linux. The real issue is that there is not real clear target standard platform. You are in for support hell when you release on Linux.
Linux works well in the confines of teh open source where the distro developers can adapt all software to fit thier specific whims. Games developers are NOT going to open source thier code, thus you hit the pain of pure binary distribution in Linux land. Try and take a binary from a 5 year old distro and run it on a current version, odds are it will fail. On the other hand I have Windows games from 1997 happily running on my Win 7.
I never brought in apple mac to the discussion.
But even if I did, I dont see the point. MS is an OS vendor, so is Apple and Google. MS want to do what the other guys are doing.
I think they are wrong to try and do that, as I hate the monopoly shop idea. (If you ask me, what Apple/Google is doing there is MUCH worse than what MS ever did in the past, but thats just my personal oppinion.)