I think this will change about MMO's as combat evolves. I feel that GW2 still allows all players to do the end game even if a its a little more rough for the baddies but because the combat is dynamic and motion based its come farther than most games towards skill based combat. But this idea that MMO's used to be hard is just bullshit, all the older MMO's like Diablo 2, EQ and AO simply took hardcore gamers not skill. Most average players could play for hundreds of hours get geared join a guild and face roll everything from their out playing with one hand on their twenty button mouse and the other hand you know where.
Now this is nonsense too. To pick EQ as an example: mobs did more damage, your mana pool didn't replenish that fast, deaths were more unforgiving, mobs had a large aggro range and could pull others in very easily. You had to keep your wits alert a lot more than in later MMO's. There was a clear and distinct difference in success results between players and groups who knew what they were doing and those who fooled around or tried to face roll the game.
The reason for that was that the margin for errors was smaller than in later MMO's. Things could get out of control very rapidly and then it made a world of difference if you had players who were good at what they did, or not.
I agreed with OP , but new generations mmorpg players looking for asocial soloable friendly games,they rush games in 1-2 weeks & move to another new mmo.It is way which games companies following they making games for take money not for players fun.
Look mmorpg.com game list they put solo games ,cuse, players ask it , i think here is something wrong with majority of ,,mmo,, players.They dont know diferent sp+mp / mmo or shooter(arcade) / RPG
I bet others have said it already but I'll say it again:
Hard mmo = niche market = limited player base = limited profits (if any at all)
Easy (dumbified) mmo = everyone can play (hi WOW) = large player base (houswifes, grandmaas, just aboute anyone else) = huge profits
Get it?
Hard games (niche market) = Salem, Xsyon, EVE...
Easy games (wide market) = WOW, GW2, SWTOR
I know some will sream in pain now about me saying that GW2 and WOW are easy games but the truth does hurt when you live in denial.
This is why era of hard games is a goner until some indie studio makes one which will be swallowed by large studios like EA. EA is to gaming world what Don King is to boxing or Jay Z to music industry. A good businessman and a destroyer of anything nice in it. Boxing is crap, music is crap and so is mmo gaming.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
The direction that most high profile mmo's have taken since the early days is purely a result of human idiocy, which is the main influential factor in human life.
Basically, it's easier to make money when you make a product for idiots because the majority of human beings are idiots.
Originally posted by Sylvarii Their is one but you are obviously not playing it.Vanguard is not quite as harsh as EQ but it really isn't a walk in the park,it's a thinking mans old time MMO.It also has a vast non instanced world which has depth and mystery.
Just going by the title of this thread "....we need a true mmo...", there are too many definitions of what people think of as a "true" mmo. Yes, I read the OP. I do not totally agree with what is said about "what is not needed". Some of those things listed are simply an evolution of the genre that have made MMO's more accessible for EVERYBODY. Let us face it, if people few they can not get into the game and do some things easily they won't play. And if people don't play you end up have a niche game that is not making the devs money.
On the other hand, I would like to see more DEPTH to MMOs in general. I think there has been an approach to all MMOs that just make them more eye candy then fun. Particularly, I would like to see better and meaningful crafting in an MMO. Other the the now defunct SWG and the current EVE crafting system, I have not seen many that are worth much time or make me want to go back and craft just for fun.
As to taking away the ability to "solo" in MMOs....NO. I play my MMOs solo at time and with friends at others. I NEVER want to be forced to play with a group all of the time just because it is the only option. I do want to go solo if I just feel like that is what I want to do for a play session. Content within MMOs should scale to group size....solo to large groups.
Getting rid of the trinity is a matter of making more roles on equal footing with the big three, not removing them altogether. It also helps if there are multiple targets and AI that is smart enough to try flanking and will attack secondary targets.
Tanks, positional dps, nuker, healer, crowd controller, support, and minion type classes can be made to each have equal importance. Where if you have a well rounded group of 4+ variety you won't need a healer or a tank, but if you have them, then even better.
That's step 1. Step 2 is making it so that players cannot succeed alone in adventuring. While at the same time, cut scenes, dialogue choices, etc, should affect the outcome of events, but phased in a way that's personalized to each player in a party. Also, a personal storyline you can solo is fine, but it should be a level-neutral kind of drama that is long and involved. Perhaps it grants some secondary reward points, gear that levels with you, etc. But most the leveling and questlines should be impractical to do without 3 people, and a max of 6 in a party.
Step 3 is making combat feel not like an mmo, and not like god of war, but more like an action rpg or skyrim. Attacking, blocking, dodging, positioning. Cast bars, resource management, all forms of CC, melee attacks that by default hit in an arc, width depending on the weapon. Targetting using a reticle, with some projectiles like fireballs and arrows dodgeable, with others non-movement dependant, like magic missile.
Step 4 is loot. Enemies should come in different flavors, like diablo or CoH with bosses, elites, etc, and every kill should have gamers on the edge of their seat wondering if some great item would soon be added to their collection, while at the same time if there's raiding, the result should not be a few pieces of gear divvied up among the guildmaster's favorites, but instead points that can go towards buying special gear that everyone can get.
Step 5 is world pvp with 3-5 factions. The PvE world should be the frontier, and inconveniencing adventurers should play a major role in hostilities between factions. Temporary alliances should be possible when outnumbered, towns should be capturable, mines and farmlands controlled and changing hands, making crafting materials plentiful or scarce.
I have my own ideas about crafting, either a crafting profession completely separate from an adventuring class, in a game where you can only have 1 character per server, or making it so there's several resource gathering crafts, support materials crafts (gems, enchanted materials), and final product crafts (actual armor, weapons, jewelry), and only 1 profession per game account so that it's not a matter of grinding them all up, but cooperating and trading with others to craft gear that is on par with the best that can be found anywhere else in the game.
Instead of soulbinding items, gear should wear out over time. Not completely, but significantly. The magic properties should wane over time, meaning don't get attached to uber gear or bring out your good sets for special butt-kicking occasions.
And finally sandbox elements. Houses, forts, fortifications around towns, tunnels, etc. Systems that would make these work in an open world would take a post five times as long as this to detail, but it's time we saw something like this. The important thing is how long it takes to build and how difficult it is to gather resources for large projects that effect everyone. If players want to dig a moat, it should take a long time and require many players working on it, same with paved roads, or a new town, etc.
Anyways this is what we need, and really no mmo will probably even have 1/3 of these features.
Originally posted by Fondel Darkfall Unholy Wars anyone?
It is First person...
I did not like it for an MMO experience...
Not sure what they will change in DF 2, but...all I saw is features and features, and trying to appeal the illusion of being "elite"...which caters to younger players but not the ons that want to experience the old school gameplay, and want to build communities in a virtual world side to side with the action and dangers this world contains.
DF focusses on destroying communities not building them, it is first person and only the ones with the twitch skillz will prevail...brains, immagination, creativity, and most importantly sociability are secondary if not less, which means it does not appeal to old school players.
****
Anyways, I agree with OP....the sentiment is mutual.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
ONE THING FOR SURE, DEVELOPERS DO AS THEY FEEL. they don't ask the players.
In all the prod cast for SWTOR, GW2, World of Warcraft expantions, and the list goes on and on. Do they ever say " were making this game very easy ". No it's just automatic anymore. People that are fed up with WoW since it turned easy, are waiting for Blizzards Titan.....Well guess what !....What ever it is it will be easy and auto grouping right out of the gate.
Am I wrong, are any of you players asking for easy ?.....By the way, with seven years of playing mmo's I've met a lot of 10 year olds that can play mmos good. They may be jurks at times, they may steel all the good loot, but they can sure play, and never complain that a game is too hard !
Yeah, sure, I'm with you, more of a virtual world, more of a challenge, more socialization mechanics etc etc.
Along with you and me and perhaps 500K of our friends it still isn't enough of an audience to encourage a AAA developer to sink 100M plus into such a design, so don't get your hopes up.
What we really need is for a large size indie title to hit the big time, much like CCP did with EVE.
Which as crazy as it may seem is why I'm going to support DF:UW, despite my misgivings with some of the game mechanics.
I don't know. 100 million plus *is* a risky budget to sink into it, that's for sure, but... How about 30 million?
I honestly believe that someone can do a "decent" quality MMO that won't outright feel like an amateur effort and implement some of those "old school" features.
I also believe the MMO scene has distanced itself from the "old school" mechanics enough to make them feel "fresh" again. Some of the current MMO players haven't even seen them at work. Think about it like remakes of old movies. (Yeah, yeah, most suck, but that's not the point! The point is that there's a new audience ready for an update on it.)
I play a difficult, unforgiving, true MMO. It's a lot of fun, you get really fast mounts your first day, there's huge pvp to be had, and people work together all the time.
Some people aren't a fan though, as they're so used to other, lesser, MMO's features, things like... walking around, and crafting things nobody uses so they can craft harder things nobody uses, and getting to max level so they can raid to get better gear for no reason why not.
Comments
Now this is nonsense too. To pick EQ as an example: mobs did more damage, your mana pool didn't replenish that fast, deaths were more unforgiving, mobs had a large aggro range and could pull others in very easily. You had to keep your wits alert a lot more than in later MMO's. There was a clear and distinct difference in success results between players and groups who knew what they were doing and those who fooled around or tried to face roll the game.
The reason for that was that the margin for errors was smaller than in later MMO's. Things could get out of control very rapidly and then it made a world of difference if you had players who were good at what they did, or not.I agreed with OP , but new generations mmorpg players looking for asocial soloable friendly games,they rush games in 1-2 weeks & move to another new mmo.It is way which games companies following they making games for take money not for players fun.
Look mmorpg.com game list they put solo games ,cuse, players ask it , i think here is something wrong with majority of ,,mmo,, players.They dont know diferent sp+mp / mmo or shooter(arcade) / RPG
I bet others have said it already but I'll say it again:
Hard mmo = niche market = limited player base = limited profits (if any at all)
Easy (dumbified) mmo = everyone can play (hi WOW) = large player base (houswifes, grandmaas, just aboute anyone else) = huge profits
Get it?
Hard games (niche market) = Salem, Xsyon, EVE...
Easy games (wide market) = WOW, GW2, SWTOR
I know some will sream in pain now about me saying that GW2 and WOW are easy games but the truth does hurt when you live in denial.
This is why era of hard games is a goner until some indie studio makes one which will be swallowed by large studios like EA. EA is to gaming world what Don King is to boxing or Jay Z to music industry. A good businessman and a destroyer of anything nice in it. Boxing is crap, music is crap and so is mmo gaming.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
The direction that most high profile mmo's have taken since the early days is purely a result of human idiocy, which is the main influential factor in human life.
Basically, it's easier to make money when you make a product for idiots because the majority of human beings are idiots.
Does it have a cash shop?
SOE and anime, nice....
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Just going by the title of this thread "....we need a true mmo...", there are too many definitions of what people think of as a "true" mmo. Yes, I read the OP. I do not totally agree with what is said about "what is not needed". Some of those things listed are simply an evolution of the genre that have made MMO's more accessible for EVERYBODY. Let us face it, if people few they can not get into the game and do some things easily they won't play. And if people don't play you end up have a niche game that is not making the devs money.
On the other hand, I would like to see more DEPTH to MMOs in general. I think there has been an approach to all MMOs that just make them more eye candy then fun. Particularly, I would like to see better and meaningful crafting in an MMO. Other the the now defunct SWG and the current EVE crafting system, I have not seen many that are worth much time or make me want to go back and craft just for fun.
As to taking away the ability to "solo" in MMOs....NO. I play my MMOs solo at time and with friends at others. I NEVER want to be forced to play with a group all of the time just because it is the only option. I do want to go solo if I just feel like that is what I want to do for a play session. Content within MMOs should scale to group size....solo to large groups.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Getting rid of the trinity is a matter of making more roles on equal footing with the big three, not removing them altogether. It also helps if there are multiple targets and AI that is smart enough to try flanking and will attack secondary targets.
Tanks, positional dps, nuker, healer, crowd controller, support, and minion type classes can be made to each have equal importance. Where if you have a well rounded group of 4+ variety you won't need a healer or a tank, but if you have them, then even better.
That's step 1. Step 2 is making it so that players cannot succeed alone in adventuring. While at the same time, cut scenes, dialogue choices, etc, should affect the outcome of events, but phased in a way that's personalized to each player in a party. Also, a personal storyline you can solo is fine, but it should be a level-neutral kind of drama that is long and involved. Perhaps it grants some secondary reward points, gear that levels with you, etc. But most the leveling and questlines should be impractical to do without 3 people, and a max of 6 in a party.
Step 3 is making combat feel not like an mmo, and not like god of war, but more like an action rpg or skyrim. Attacking, blocking, dodging, positioning. Cast bars, resource management, all forms of CC, melee attacks that by default hit in an arc, width depending on the weapon. Targetting using a reticle, with some projectiles like fireballs and arrows dodgeable, with others non-movement dependant, like magic missile.
Step 4 is loot. Enemies should come in different flavors, like diablo or CoH with bosses, elites, etc, and every kill should have gamers on the edge of their seat wondering if some great item would soon be added to their collection, while at the same time if there's raiding, the result should not be a few pieces of gear divvied up among the guildmaster's favorites, but instead points that can go towards buying special gear that everyone can get.
Step 5 is world pvp with 3-5 factions. The PvE world should be the frontier, and inconveniencing adventurers should play a major role in hostilities between factions. Temporary alliances should be possible when outnumbered, towns should be capturable, mines and farmlands controlled and changing hands, making crafting materials plentiful or scarce.
I have my own ideas about crafting, either a crafting profession completely separate from an adventuring class, in a game where you can only have 1 character per server, or making it so there's several resource gathering crafts, support materials crafts (gems, enchanted materials), and final product crafts (actual armor, weapons, jewelry), and only 1 profession per game account so that it's not a matter of grinding them all up, but cooperating and trading with others to craft gear that is on par with the best that can be found anywhere else in the game.
Instead of soulbinding items, gear should wear out over time. Not completely, but significantly. The magic properties should wane over time, meaning don't get attached to uber gear or bring out your good sets for special butt-kicking occasions.
And finally sandbox elements. Houses, forts, fortifications around towns, tunnels, etc. Systems that would make these work in an open world would take a post five times as long as this to detail, but it's time we saw something like this. The important thing is how long it takes to build and how difficult it is to gather resources for large projects that effect everyone. If players want to dig a moat, it should take a long time and require many players working on it, same with paved roads, or a new town, etc.
Anyways this is what we need, and really no mmo will probably even have 1/3 of these features.
dont worry Arche Age is otw! it wil save us all! **fingers / toes crossed**
if not im about rdy to throw in the towel!
I agree with this thread 100%.
Anyone remember Lineage II or RF Online? That's oldschool for me and it includes all you stated.
I really do agree with you. You sir are right.
Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com
Lets start at the basics:
What exactly is a "Living breathing world" in an MMO.
Edit to add: How is this living breathing world different from what we see in MMO's now?
It is First person...
I did not like it for an MMO experience...
Not sure what they will change in DF 2, but...all I saw is features and features, and trying to appeal the illusion of being "elite"...which caters to younger players but not the ons that want to experience the old school gameplay, and want to build communities in a virtual world side to side with the action and dangers this world contains.
DF focusses on destroying communities not building them, it is first person and only the ones with the twitch skillz will prevail...brains, immagination, creativity, and most importantly sociability are secondary if not less, which means it does not appeal to old school players.
****
Anyways, I agree with OP....the sentiment is mutual.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Am I glad you don't make MMOs
i 2nd that ..thx
but i dont know how far or good this could be with SOE also working on EQ next
Maybe most don't like easy mode.
ONE THING FOR SURE, DEVELOPERS DO AS THEY FEEL. they don't ask the players.
In all the prod cast for SWTOR, GW2, World of Warcraft expantions, and the list goes on and on. Do they ever say " were making this game very easy ". No it's just automatic anymore. People that are fed up with WoW since it turned easy, are waiting for Blizzards Titan.....Well guess what !....What ever it is it will be easy and auto grouping right out of the gate.
Am I wrong, are any of you players asking for easy ?.....By the way, with seven years of playing mmo's I've met a lot of 10 year olds that can play mmos good. They may be jurks at times, they may steel all the good loot, but they can sure play, and never complain that a game is too hard !
I don't know. 100 million plus *is* a risky budget to sink into it, that's for sure, but... How about 30 million?
I honestly believe that someone can do a "decent" quality MMO that won't outright feel like an amateur effort and implement some of those "old school" features.
I also believe the MMO scene has distanced itself from the "old school" mechanics enough to make them feel "fresh" again. Some of the current MMO players haven't even seen them at work. Think about it like remakes of old movies. (Yeah, yeah, most suck, but that's not the point!
The point is that there's a new audience ready for an update on it.)
lol
make something harder people will complain
make some hard with little rewards
people complain and dont even bother
good luck with the mmo you are looking for
people dont want it.
people want phat loots and max level asap so they can move on to the next game
anything that presents a challenge is complained about till it gets nerfed
things that arent even exploits are now exploits these days.
most anti bot stuff does nothing to bots and hurts the players while bots run all over the place
if someone wants to farm stuff over and over why arent they allow and rewarded o wait thats grinding
blah blah
on and on and on again
How would YOU even know what people want? lol
Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com
Well, then I think you "observed" wrong.
Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com
you just dont see it do you
A true MMO? Hmm...have you checked out MoP?
(yes, I know I just commited suicide)
I play a difficult, unforgiving, true MMO. It's a lot of fun, you get really fast mounts your first day, there's huge pvp to be had, and people work together all the time.
Some people aren't a fan though, as they're so used to other, lesser, MMO's features, things like... walking around, and crafting things nobody uses so they can craft harder things nobody uses, and getting to max level so they can raid to get better gear for no reason why not.