War Z Community Rant - Like it or Lump it

quickshotz

So this is about a 20min discussion/rant about the War Z community (not so much the game itself). Everything I talk about here can be found in the public forum sections and has no actual War Z footage (so this does not break the nda!). Some will agree some wont, that cool bro. Thats one of the awesome things about this world we live on, everyone has a different view of things, so keep that i mind kiddos. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkHOwHAxVE0  <--- Watch or why are you here?

 

I would love to have a debate/discussion about some of the subjects I bring up (key words debate/discussion NOT a argument). Very interested in your thoughts on it all. Im just so worried the WarZ devs are going to listen to the flood of complaints (not even bugs, just complaints) coming in and take them as what the community wants, THEY ARNT! Most (not all) of the intelligent people are not even bothering to post as they dont have the time for the flame war that is bound to come of it. 

 

NEVER base a games design around the low tier of players, it will never work. As I said in my video could you imagine dota/lol/sc2 (whatever competitive game you watch) if they were based off the low tier lol, it would be horrid. (simple example. sc2 shortly after release: 4 gate needs MAJOR nerf, omgz the 4 gate is sooo OPPPPP). Then what happened? The competitive pros slowly (it did take awhile lol) learn ways around 4 gates and how to stop them and got to a point (before nerf) where a 4 gate wasnt even a good viable option anymore in competitive play. Things take time, and things need to be examined by the best before you can say theres something wrong. MANY games went the way of designing there games based on the lower tier of players and where are they now???? Exactly (im sure there are a few good/fun lower tier based games but thats not the point. We are shooting for the top not the bottom)

 

I myself have fallen into the "rage mode" and started unloading on some of the idiots yesterday. Just relax and let yourself cool down before responding to the idiots or better yet, dont respond at all. As for my "rude" comment I made yesterday sorry, I guess. I stand by what I said but I really should have just bit my lip and said nothing. But yea. Enjoy the video and leave your thoughts below guys. Also as I said remember, everyone's going to have a different view. Dont get mad at them for it K? :o:o:o:o:o

**Added because its a good argument on the subject*** Games should reward getting better. Not reward playing like crap over and over and over. People do the same thing and fail multiple times. But instead of trying something new they say its broken and cry about it till "there" way works. getting better should be a goal of players AND game design. Lazy people shouldnt be catered to. I agree you can have a lot of fun if you are bad at something.. Should the rules of soccer or football be changed so you can be better at it? The obv answer is no. So should a game be made easier just because a lot of people are bad at it? no

I expect more dislikes on the video then likes (as due to my whole "most gamers are bad" theory) Meh. My ego is so hurt! lolz

 

 

SlickShoes

I haven't watched the video yet but your condescending tone and putting yourself on a pedestal is not really going to endear you to people. 

You have basically already said " I am a good gamer, you are not, you are wrong, I am correct ".

Most people that play football (soccer) are "terrible" at it. I play football every week but I am never going to make it pro.

You do have to realise that not everyone that enjoys doing something enjoys it because they are great at it.

I understand where you are coming from with regard to forum whiners though, but companies must realise that those people on the forums whining are a tiny percentage of the player base of any game. 

Making a game is very difficult and takes years, you want it to be as balanced as possible, you don't want to cater to the top 1% or the bottom 1% you want to hit some sort of middle ground as that is where most people will be skill wise.

SaintPhilip

-Alright. I want my 20 fucking mins back.

I listened and for the most part agree with you (in a general sense- I have never played this game).

Heres the thing. People are paying to alpha test this. Obviously the game needs tweaked and adjusted but these players (for the most part) ane not there to test and give valid feedback, but rather are people who payed to "play before everyone else". The communtiy therefore is probably going to be totally counterproductive to alpha/beta testing.

-I disagree with several things you said on principal (regarding the "zombie apocolypse" and how people would begin randomly killing- I think its far more complex than that) but overall...

EDIT: To the post above. Yeah his attitude kind of sucked but its hard to be not condescending and yet truthful about certain facts. Games generally shoot towards the "lowest common denomanater" and there are far more on the average to low spectrum (in anything at all) than at the top end. I would probably suck at a game like this (First person Shooter type) since I am low skilled in these games. I still would be able to have fun with the realization that I am not highly skilled. It isnt offensive... There are games I am very skilled in.

 

 

quickshotz

Originally posted by SlickShoes

I haven't watched the video yet but your condescending tone and putting yourself on a pedestal is not really going to endear you to people. 

You have basically already said " I am a good gamer, you are not, you are wrong, I am correct ".

Most people that play football (soccer) are "terrible" at it. I play football every week but I am never going to make it pro.

You do have to realise that not everyone that enjoys doing something enjoys it because they are great at it.

I understand where you are coming from with regard to forum whiners though, but companies must realise that those people on the forums whining are a tiny percentage of the player base of any game. 

Making a game is very difficult and takes years, you want it to be as balanced as possible, you don't want to cater to the top 1% or the bottom 1% you want to hit some sort of middle ground as that is where most people will be skill wise.

But as a player do you want "more players" or a "better" game? Eve is a good example of this. They tuned the game to id say about the top 20%. The bottom 80% complaiend and bitched but that didnt matter. The game thrived and is considered one of the best most well balanced and mature communitys out there. You also find a lot more intellegent people in eve due to this.

 

When games start thinking about "more players" and less about a skilled challenging game it always goes downhil. Simple examples: Cod,WoW,Battlefield. All great games that over time and new released started focusing more on getting players in the game then making the game itself good, and quality wise have suffered for that. Ow but damn this game has x million players, it must be good <--- bad logic, its normally the opisit.

 

Games should reward getting better. Not reward playing like crap over and over and over. People do the same thing and fail multiple times. But instead of trying something new they say its broken and cry about it till "there" way works. getting better should be a goal of players AND game design. Lazy people shouldnt be catered to. I agree you can have a lot of fun if you are bad at something.. But lets use your own example. should the rules of soccer be changed so you can be better at it? The obv answer is no. So should a game be made easier just because a lot of people are bad at it? no

SaintPhilip

Originally posted by quickshotz

Originally posted by SlickShoes

I haven't watched the video yet but your condescending tone and putting yourself on a pedestal is not really going to endear you to people. 

You have basically already said " I am a good gamer, you are not, you are wrong, I am correct ".

Most people that play football (soccer) are "terrible" at it. I play football every week but I am never going to make it pro.

You do have to realise that not everyone that enjoys doing something enjoys it because they are great at it.

I understand where you are coming from with regard to forum whiners though, but companies must realise that those people on the forums whining are a tiny percentage of the player base of any game. 

Making a game is very difficult and takes years, you want it to be as balanced as possible, you don't want to cater to the top 1% or the bottom 1% you want to hit some sort of middle ground as that is where most people will be skill wise.

But as a player do you want "more players" or a "better" game? Eve is a good example of this. They tuned the game to id say about the top 20%. The bottom 80% complaiend and bitched but that didnt matter. The game thrived and is considered one of the best most well balanced and mature communitys out there. You also find a lot more intellegent people in eve due to this.

 

When games start thinking about "more players" and less about a skilled challenging game it always goes downhil. Simple examples: Cod,WoW,Battlefield. All great games that over time and new released started focusing more on getting players in the game then making the game itself good, and quality wise have suffered for that. Ow but damn this game has x million players, it must be good <--- bad logic, its normally the opisit.

 

Games should reward getting better. Not reward playing like crap over and over and over. People do the same thing and fail multiple times. But instead of trying something new they say its broken and cry about it till "there" way works. Betting better should be a goal of players AND game design. Lazy people shouldnt be catered to. I agree you can have a lot of fun if you are bad at something.. But lets use your own example. should the rules of soccer be changed so you can be better at it? The obv answer is no. So should a game be made easier just because a lot of people are bad at it? no

Keep in mind though, that this is a balancing act which could really go both ways. And at some point (the tipping point) population dwindles and then snowballs to nothing.

All Wolves and no Sheep will equal very bored wolves. In a game like this you are going to attract a ton of assholes and griefers to begin with. Couple this with harsh death penalty and a bottomheavy (shkillwise) playerbase. Sure, they will occasionally score a nice shot or make a good kill but overall they will be hunted and killed- Fodder.

So the game has to find  a way to accomodate (or lose) those people in the long run. That gets into more of theory behind what could work without dumbing down the game.

-But never underestimate the importance of the unwashed masses. Without that foundation the whole structure crumbles.

SlickShoes

Originally posted by quickshotz

Originally posted by SlickShoes

I haven't watched the video yet but your condescending tone and putting yourself on a pedestal is not really going to endear you to people. 

You have basically already said " I am a good gamer, you are not, you are wrong, I am correct ".

Most people that play football (soccer) are "terrible" at it. I play football every week but I am never going to make it pro.

You do have to realise that not everyone that enjoys doing something enjoys it because they are great at it.

I understand where you are coming from with regard to forum whiners though, but companies must realise that those people on the forums whining are a tiny percentage of the player base of any game. 

Making a game is very difficult and takes years, you want it to be as balanced as possible, you don't want to cater to the top 1% or the bottom 1% you want to hit some sort of middle ground as that is where most people will be skill wise.

But as a player do you want "more players" or a "better" game? Eve is a good example of this. They tuned the game to id say about the top 20%. The bottom 80% complaiend and bitched but that didnt matter. The game thrived and is considered one of the best most well balanced and mature communitys out there. You also find a lot more intellegent people in eve due to this.

 

When games start thinking about "more players" and less about a skilled challenging game it always goes downhil. Simple examples: Cod,WoW,Battlefield. All great games that over time and new released started focusing more on getting players in the game then making the game itself good, and quality wise have suffered for that. Ow but damn this game has x million players, it must be good <--- bad logic, its normally the opisit.

I disagree, CoD has never been great, WoW has never been that great either, Battlefield I have never played so i'll sit that one out. 

EVE is a game that I have never bothered to get in to, despite trying a few times, because of the sheer volume of stuff to learn. If I was still at Uni and didnt work full time I would probably love it, equally I am obvisouly less skilled at EVE than you but I don't spend any time on there forums telling them to change the game. I highly doubt that 80% of the playerbase of EVE complained about anything.

Every game has intelligent people, I play WoW with a Doctor and a research scientist, are they dumb because they play a game like WoW in there spare time? Intelligence is not based on what games you fill up your free time with. I used to play with a pharmacist that was the biggest general chat troll the world has ever seen, then you have another guy who didn't even graduate high school but spends his time in game theorycrafting and raid leading on progression raids.

I never said that more players = good game, you just brought that one up yourself.

I have already stated in other threads here that if DayZ had 50 players I would still play it, if the game has enough players to function then it's still worth playing. I know lots of people hate that game and hate any game with permadeath in it or any form of permadeath.

SlickShoes

Originally posted by quickshotz

Originally posted by SlickShoes

I haven't watched the video yet but your condescending tone and putting yourself on a pedestal is not really going to endear you to people. 

You have basically already said " I am a good gamer, you are not, you are wrong, I am correct ".

Most people that play football (soccer) are "terrible" at it. I play football every week but I am never going to make it pro.

You do have to realise that not everyone that enjoys doing something enjoys it because they are great at it.

I understand where you are coming from with regard to forum whiners though, but companies must realise that those people on the forums whining are a tiny percentage of the player base of any game. 

Making a game is very difficult and takes years, you want it to be as balanced as possible, you don't want to cater to the top 1% or the bottom 1% you want to hit some sort of middle ground as that is where most people will be skill wise.

But as a player do you want "more players" or a "better" game? Eve is a good example of this. They tuned the game to id say about the top 20%. The bottom 80% complaiend and bitched but that didnt matter. The game thrived and is considered one of the best most well balanced and mature communitys out there. You also find a lot more intellegent people in eve due to this.

 

When games start thinking about "more players" and less about a skilled challenging game it always goes downhil. Simple examples: Cod,WoW,Battlefield. All great games that over time and new released started focusing more on getting players in the game then making the game itself good, and quality wise have suffered for that. Ow but damn this game has x million players, it must be good <--- bad logic, its normally the opisit.

 

Games should reward getting better. Not reward playing like crap over and over and over. People do the same thing and fail multiple times. But instead of trying something new they say its broken and cry about it till "there" way works. getting better should be a goal of players AND game design. Lazy people shouldnt be catered to. I agree you can have a lot of fun if you are bad at something.. But lets use your own example. should the rules of soccer be changed so you can be better at it? The obv answer is no. So should a game be made easier just because a lot of people are bad at it? no

You didn't understand what I said, I agree with you that game devs should not listen to forum whiners for game balance, hardcore pro player whiners or noob idiot whiners, neither.

quickshotz

Im not saying more people is bad. Im saying we dont need as much as people think. Eve survives with last I checked about 400k-500k players in a world of games with 1-10 million players. Just because your population is lower doesnt make it a bad game nor does it nessicarly effect gameplay.

 

You can be bad, thats not the problem. Its the bad players who dont want to get better! If your willing to learn and adapt then your really not a bad player, your just new and learning the game. Im talking about the winners that want the game catered to them and refuse to learn to play better

SaintPhilip

Originally posted by quickshotz

Im not saying more people is bad. Im saying we dont need as much as people think. Eve survives with last I checked about 400k-500k players in a world of games with 1-10 million players. Just because your population is lower doesnt make it a bad game nor does it nessicarly effect gameplay.

 

You can be bad, thats not the problem. Its the bad players who dont want to get better! If your willing to learn and adapt then your really not a bad player, your just new and learning the game. Im talking about the winners that want the game catered to them and refuse to learn to play better

But eve subsides because it isnt combat centric. There is so much to keep a player of a variety of playstyles in thhe World from crafting and Politics to mercantile and banking to PVP and actual wars between corporations.

Again, I have not played this but my impression is that this is basic FPS persistent universe game with zombies- I mean, thats a very cool thing- VERY cool. But does it have the depth of a game like Eve (or is that in the plans?) because if NOT you will need a much larger player base to make this work and be populated enough down the road when the "newness" wears off. If you basicly log in, gather loot, survive and kill its going to get old quick for those who are not very skilled at the FPS combat- This, in turn would really negativly impact this type of game far mopre than a game like Eve.

quickshotz

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by quickshotz

Im not saying more people is bad. Im saying we dont need as much as people think. Eve survives with last I checked about 400k-500k players in a world of games with 1-10 million players. Just because your population is lower doesnt make it a bad game nor does it nessicarly effect gameplay.

 

You can be bad, thats not the problem. Its the bad players who dont want to get better! If your willing to learn and adapt then your really not a bad player, your just new and learning the game. Im talking about the winners that want the game catered to them and refuse to learn to play better

But eve subsides because it isnt combat centric. There is so much to keep a player of a variety of playstyles in thhe World from crafting and Politics to mercantile and banking to PVP and actual wars between corporations.

Again, I have not played this but my impression is that this is basic FPS persistent universe game with zombies- I mean, thats a very cool thing- VERY cool. But does it have the depth of a game like Eve (or is that in the plans?) because if NOT you will need a much larger player base to make this work and be populated enough down the road when the "newness" wears off. If you basicly log in, gather loot, survive and kill its going to get old quick for those who are not very skilled at the FPS combat- This, in turn would really negativly impact this type of game far mopre than a game like Eve.

So lets bring that depth into the game instead of fighting for players off the bat. And catering to the "average" person. Depth first please

SaintPhilip

Originally posted by quickshotz

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by quickshotz

Im not saying more people is bad. Im saying we dont need as much as people think. Eve survives with last I checked about 400k-500k players in a world of games with 1-10 million players. Just because your population is lower doesnt make it a bad game nor does it nessicarly effect gameplay.

 

You can be bad, thats not the problem. Its the bad players who dont want to get better! If your willing to learn and adapt then your really not a bad player, your just new and learning the game. Im talking about the winners that want the game catered to them and refuse to learn to play better

But eve subsides because it isnt combat centric. There is so much to keep a player of a variety of playstyles in thhe World from crafting and Politics to mercantile and banking to PVP and actual wars between corporations.

Again, I have not played this but my impression is that this is basic FPS persistent universe game with zombies- I mean, thats a very cool thing- VERY cool. But does it have the depth of a game like Eve (or is that in the plans?) because if NOT you will need a much larger player base to make this work and be populated enough down the road when the "newness" wears off. If you basicly log in, gather loot, survive and kill its going to get old quick for those who are not very skilled at the FPS combat- This, in turn would really negativly impact this type of game far mopre than a game like Eve.

So lets bring that depth into the game instead of fighting for players off the bat. And catering to the "average" person. Depth first please

I agree and it would be awesome if some deep crafting/economic/non combat tools were added- But absent of that actually happening there has to be give and take between a "Hardcore" attitude and the "masses".

-I again state that I have not played this game so everything I am stating is pure conjecture.

Assuming this is very harcore and the game "owned" by a few elites and PKers- With the death = lockout (unless you pay) and limited toons, this game will sink fastert han the Titanic unless something is added for those "masses" to do except be cannon fodder.

-Not listening to the masses is true- But the same must  be said of the (much smaller base of) elite players. Too many games which are "Hardcore" will not give an inch to accomodate other playstyles or give other player types som ething to do- and they usually have dead servers quite quickly.

BigCountry

Day 4 of public Alpha.
- over 100,000 active accounts
- over 86,000 playing DAILY
- over 22,000 playing at any given second ( CCU )

 

I am enjoying this game tremendously atm.

 

Can't get enough of these games. Sandbox 4tw

 

Definitely nice to have some competition for Dean and DayZ. 2 games is always better than 1.

SaintPhilip

Originally posted by BigCountry

Day 4 of public Alpha.
- over 100,000 active accounts
- over 86,000 playing DAILY
- over 22,000 playing at any given second ( CCU )

 

I am enjoying this game tremendously atm.

 

Can't get enough of these games. Sandbox 4tw

 

Definitely nice to have some competition for Dean and DayZ. 2 games is always better than 1.

Damn...They really have hit those numbers????

And "sandbox" gameplay? Can you share or still under NDA? I wasnt rwally aware this was a sandbox but that certainly peaks my interest...

kaiser3282

Havent played it myself yet, but I will say i completely agree with the OP in regards to rewarding being bad, etc.

One of you mentioned playing football / soccer and not being very good. But does that stop you from having fun? You say you play, so I would assume youre still enjoying it and didnt run off the field and "ragequit" because youre not the best and probably got your ass kicked a few times. Youre not getting paid to do it I assume, and yeah there are of course the benefits to playing like staying in shape, but you could be doing something else to stay in shape. Arent you playing because you enjoy it?

But when it comes to games, not just MMOs, the masses have this mindset of "if I dont instantly get reward, even if i sucked, this game is no fun".

I just dont get that mindset at all. I find a challenge, and then being rewarded for overcoming it, a hell of a lot more fun than going through things in easy mode and getting the same useless token rewards as everyone else because it makes them feel good about themselves.

Maybe part of my mindset comes from FPS, which I was into before I got big into MMOs. I wasnt rewarded with crap after every round if I was a poor player. I had to practice and learn the game and how to outsmart my opponents. My reward was seeing my name moving up the rankings lists until I took over the #1 spots in several games. I took over the #1 spot in Team Survival Kills / #2 in the entire game in Rainbow SIx with approx 38000 kills (when I left, I had the spots before that) and in GR2 #1 overall kills with approx 80k kills, #1 rank in 2/3 modes, and #1 kills in all modes within a few months of starting each game, not because I sucked and was being handed easy mode rewards constantly. I didnt need that crap to tell me I was getting better. I knew I was getting better by my consistently winning even while running intentionally lopsided teams in the enemy's favor, and by moving up those leaderboards.

Now granted, a lot of games dont have good leaderboards like that, but the principle is the same. I dont encounter something difficult and go whining to the devs that something is unfair and they need to nerf it or Im going to quit, etc. I keep trying it over and over again using various methods until I figure out how to get around that obstacle. Even if the rewards arent worth the time & effort, I still find myself going out of my way to purposely take on things that people claim are difficult, just so I can say I did it.

The giant in Nageling or whatever that village is in GW2 for example. I always so people complaining about him being so hard and how he is OP and its stupid and not worth doing, he neds to be nerfed, whine after endless whine. So when I had the chance one day running through there and nobody else was around I took him on solo. It was a bitch, and took me about 15-20 minutes to finally bring him down, but I did it. I got the same crappy gold and xp rewards as I would have gotten if there had been 20 people there with me taking him down, but that didnt matter to me.

If War Z is the type of gae that rewards players for getting better, not for continuing to be lazy and learn from their mistakes, I really hope they stick to it and let the crybabies who cant stand any sort of challenge go elsewhere.

kaiser3282

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by BigCountry

Day 4 of public Alpha.
- over 100,000 active accounts
- over 86,000 playing DAILY
- over 22,000 playing at any given second ( CCU )

 

I am enjoying this game tremendously atm.

 

Can't get enough of these games. Sandbox 4tw

 

Definitely nice to have some competition for Dean and DayZ. 2 games is always better than 1.

Damn...They really have hit those numbers????

And "sandbox" gameplay? Can you share or still under NDA? I wasnt rwally aware this was a sandbox but that certainly peaks my interest...

Its not an actual sandbox in the true sense of the word, like with any sort of world building, etc. Its just sandboxy in that you can kind of go where you want, do what you want, as long as you can handle it. Its kind of like Darkfall. Youre free to go anywhere, use any equipment, etc. But you cant actually build houses or otherwise impact the world like you can in a real sandbox.

oreal52

For me WARZ was far the worst game of 2012.

Seriosly guys, stay away from this game.

IF you want to buy it,watch an actual ingame video,check the list of bugs

and be prepared for payin' for something ( i can't call it a game ) that you will

uninstall after 10 minutes.

phantomghost

Now that the game is in more of a relatively playable state it is kind of fun.  I can enjoy 30minutes to an hour here and there. 

 

I stock piled food/water/medical supplied.  I also found many melee weapons, found a few guns and ammo. 

 

I started off thinking I will not kill players.. that quickly changed.  Because you cannot tell the name of the person who tyou are standing by, without them talking and doing some action like jumping to say they are friendly.  You really have to expect everyone to attempt to kill you.  Because of this I created 3 characters that I strictly kill anything and everything. 

 

The gameplay has made it obvious it is a kill or be killed world.

 

With that said... you understand that you can enjoy the game for a good bit.  It is definitely not a game I would play hours on end nor everyday... I definitely won't think about playing it while I am not playing it either.

BigCountry

Originally posted by kaiser3282

But you cant actually build houses or otherwise impact the world like you can in a real sandbox.

 

not yet. its coming. gonna be sorta like mindcraft. the "strongholds" will be instanced but still will be a lot of fun.

 

to anyone intersted in the game u can get a lot of info here

http://www.warzwiki.com/The_War_Z_Wiki

 

also,

"Less than 24 hours left to buy The War Z at deeply discounted prices. Prices will go up on October 20th."

 

so dont beat around the bush if your wanting to get in on this one cheap. like dayz, price will go up and stay there. supply and demand curve is simply too good.

Kyleran

Originally posted by SlickShoes

I haven't watched the video yet but your condescending tone and putting yourself on a pedestal is not really going to endear you to people. 

You have basically already said " I am a good gamer, you are not, you are wrong, I am correct ".

Most people that play football (soccer) are "terrible" at it. I play football every week but I am never going to make it pro.

You do have to realise that not everyone that enjoys doing something enjoys it because they are great at it.

I understand where you are coming from with regard to forum whiners though, but companies must realise that those people on the forums whining are a tiny percentage of the player base of any game. 

Making a game is very difficult and takes years, you want it to be as balanced as possible, you don't want to cater to the top 1% or the bottom 1% you want to hit some sort of middle ground as that is where most people will be skill wise.

Bingo, there's a reason certain recreational activities such as golf or bowling have handicap systems in place, it's done to try and make the game a little more fair to those who are less skilled (and always will be less skilled) and keep they happy enough to keep playing/paying.

Professional sports make no such allowances, but then again, MMO's aren't pro sports so should tailor their design to the more recreational playerbase, even if it removes some of the challenge for the very skilled.

Wouldn't it be great if the more you won in PVP the weaker your character got?  That would be fair now I think......

 

LostHawk

*ignore* got wrong information

kaiser3282

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by SlickShoes

I haven't watched the video yet but your condescending tone and putting yourself on a pedestal is not really going to endear you to people. 

You have basically already said " I am a good gamer, you are not, you are wrong, I am correct ".

Most people that play football (soccer) are "terrible" at it. I play football every week but I am never going to make it pro.

You do have to realise that not everyone that enjoys doing something enjoys it because they are great at it.

I understand where you are coming from with regard to forum whiners though, but companies must realise that those people on the forums whining are a tiny percentage of the player base of any game. 

Making a game is very difficult and takes years, you want it to be as balanced as possible, you don't want to cater to the top 1% or the bottom 1% you want to hit some sort of middle ground as that is where most people will be skill wise.

Bingo, there's a reason certain recreational activities such as golf or bowling have handicap systems in place, it's done to try and make the game a little more fair to those who are less skilled (and always will be less skilled) and keep they happy enough to keep playing/paying.

Professional sports make no such allowances, but then again, MMO's aren't pro sports so should tailor their design to the more recreational playerbase, even if it removes some of the challenge for the very skilled.

Wouldn't it be great if the more you won in PVP the weaker your character got?  That would be fair now I think......

 

Actually that would be pretty interesting. Would have to be somewhat limited of course, not so much of a nerf that yyoure just getting slughtered, but enought hat you can definitely feel a difference in power. Would be kind of cool to do even just as an optional thing, like choose to nerf yourself in exchange for some sort of bonus rewards for winning while weakened. It would be kind of interesting to see what sort of people choos ethe tougher option for the chance at greater reward vs the people sticking to full power.

Anyway, as far as handicaps and all that in sports. Yeah they do exist, but at the same time, as was pointed out, they also arent going to be winning any prizes in tournaments or be getting paid as pro players. Its not a problem so much with rewarding people who suck at a game period, but the whole system of rewarding bad players exactly the same as good players. Theres nothing really to set them apart and make them stand out as being the better players. Im kind of interested in what theyre doing with this in Defiance.

According to one of the videos they're going to have PvP skins that players can earn, which are purely cosmetic, but set the apart from other players. What they said in the video is you can stand next to your friends and say "Look. I AM bette rthan you". I wonder just how much thats going to hold true as far as how challenging they will be to get and if it will be something that just everyone can get if they simply play long enough but lose all the time, or if it will be a real significant indicator of the best players. Things like that I think are great. Its not rewarding good players with better gear which makes them even better. It just makes them stand out.

A feature like that would be pretty cool in a game like War Z I think. Something that makes you stand out and says to other players "Yeah. Im a badass".