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Why I no longer support GM, and retracted my "backing" on Kickstarter.
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I stop reading there, your argument are flawed and bias. You think because someone has a degree is better than someone who dont? In school you just learn theorie but the experience come from the work itself. Most succesful businessman dont have degree.. heck a lots of them didnt even finish college.
You judge someone before he can prove himself and that wrong.
Brigander,
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion and certainly have the freedom to express it. What I don't believe you have a right to is to perform a character assassination of Jason Appleton and that, in my opinion, is what you are doing with this post. Why? I am really not sure what your motive is. You alone know that. However, here is my take on the points you brought forward.
1. With respect to prior experience in the gaming industry. Let me point you to Richard Garriott who began his ultima concept as a kid with no advanced degrees and background and eventually gave us Ultima Online. CEO's jump from one industry to another all the time. The art of MANAGING is not industry exclusive. Management skills are universal. If you have them, you can put together a team to get the job done. Did you speak to the team that Appleton put together for this project? I don't believe you did. They are a qualified group of people. The CEO's role is to have the vision, the team's role is to bring that vision to fruition.
2. Purchased Assets. Yes, it is not unusual for independent companies to purchase assets for the purpose of creating a game. Some of these assets are used as is, while others are customized by the development team to produce a desired outcome for the game. This approach results in resource savings that can be used in other aspects of the game. Nothing terribly wrong here. Greed Monger is not being developed by Arenanet or EA. The question is this do fans want to see a UO inspired Sandbox released or do they want the same old themeparks? I think the fans voted with their money in the Kickstarter campaign. What a beautiful vote of confidence that is! 100K from Joe Public. Amazing!
3 Land The Kickstarter campaign was extremely successful. Final amount was over 100K with kickstarter and paypal pledges combined. Yes out of an originally anticipated amount of 1500 plots spoken for at launch, the entire plot allotment of 3000 was acquired by backers. These backers, by the way, are not millionaires. They are gamers like me who have spent easily 60 bucks to purchase a themepark out there who decided to spend the money through the kickstarter campaign. Now will there be plots for all the backers ? The answer is YES! The land will be made big enough to accommodate ALL the plots spoken for with still whatever amount of land needed to have 2/3 undevelopable land.
Appleton has said that he is not looking to have 50K players at launch. The game's intent was not to have the player population of EVE or WoW. This is a small project for a small community at launch. That having been said, there will be new land plots added later on just not at launch.
Kickstarter stats are public folks. Anyone can look them up http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/appleton/greed-monger-a-crafting-focused-sandbox-mmorpg/
If you look at the daily pledge progression on that chart, you will see that the progression went uniformly upward all along the campaign, with a few people switching from Kickstarter to Paypal. I'm not saying that some people did not change their minds. Obviously, you were one of them. However there was no downward spiral of pledge withdrawals as your post seems to suggest.
Let me state upfront that I am not going to debate any of this with you and I am not involved in the development of Greed Monger. I am just a pledger, like any other pledger, who got her information from Kickstarter and the Greed Monger forums. It is all public and by the way, I have never seen such candidness about development approaches from any other game's development team. Its very rewarding and refreshing.
Those are the main points of your post I wished to address here. I hope this clears the air somewhat. Good day to you.
Rheanon
Well, the devs working in their basements often *didn't* know how to make games and it was only through practical experience that they improved their craft. Will Wright is a prominent example of someone with no programming degree nevertheless working towards creating the #1 selling game of its time. The game may end up being terrible and there will definitely be some "noob" mistakes made along the way, but I don't see why this game has a significantly dimmer outlook than what other indie MMOs have on offer.
Those are strong words, sweetcheeks.
Brigander,
Jason is a promoter and a real estate salesman. It seems like he's done both well, which means the job he's doing now - promoting the game - is what he excels at. It's entirely possible what he's done in the past two days is filter out many that were on the fence, and he built a core set of users who are not only psyched about the game but, as we've seen so far, ready to evangelize the game for them. They're also already invested in the game which makes that an even stronger tie.
If Jason can't write a line of code, that's fine. His expertise seems to be in sales and social engineering which also seems to be what this game is about. In that light, he probably has a better handle on how this game works than the rest of us ever will because he's been doing it successfully for years now.
You've said your peace and pressing it further isn't going to help. April 2013 isn't that far off. Let's wait and see how the game unfolds. It could tank or it could be the next Entropia Universe.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'd like to say, that as someone with zero interest in the game; entirely as an outside observer, and just off this thread here, that I came away with the impression of YOU as the bad guy.
Mostly because you come across incredibly arrogant, and I really mean WAY over the top arrogant. I'm not trying to flame you. I'm not trolling you. I am really just making an observation, entirely unbiased; based off this thread. After all, it is a thread all about your opinions about the character of another man. I suppose if you can dish it out you should be able to take some of your own.
Most of what I get from this thread, is some dude telling other dudes that some other dude isn't "qualified" to do something.
I would probably go into an unctrollable rage if you told me my art wasn't worth buying because I didn't go to art school I would seriously make someone eat one of my painting if they told me that. You couldn't possibly be more rude or ignorant (used properly) to tell someone you don't know that they can't do something just because they don't have a degree in it.
The founder of Wendy's didn't even graduate highschool!
The guyt hat created UO did so as a frigging teenager.
The guys that founded bioware were effing doctors, who just loved games.
Most of the video games I played as a kid, were literally made by other kids. Once upon a time there was no such thing as a "degree" for game develoment. They were people, a lot of them kids, who were just having fun and trying something new.
My own borther makes games for the iPad and iPhone, he didn't go to college. One of my cousins has been doing IT work since the nineties, he didn't go to college either. My best friend has a degree in electical engineering, he's a QA specialist at a software firm!
You didn't make a single legitimate arguement in the OP. It was all ignorance (used properly) and petty nonsense. Who cares if they buy art asssets and don't use their own engines, most of the games you play were probably made the exact same way and you don't even know it. And withdrawing because of how the game works? Ddin't read about the land purchase stuff before you donated? I'm not even following the game and I knew you had to buy the land. The games trying to do something like entropia universe does, and it's working for them.
Hell, I'm actually considering the possibility of buying land early on, depending on what it costs and how the game looks like it's shaping up. It could be a worlthwhile investment if everything goes well. It worked for guys in entropia, and I dont' think it was a fluke.
Where in the world do you get off...
Why in heavens name woudl anyone need that... Infact it is better that he actually know how to run a project rather then having a "degree" but no real clue on how to run a project.
degree... my my my... that was a good one... Maybe it makes me old but when i was young you would have been laughed out of campus for even voicing such a thing and games got done any way.
No degree... *shakes head*
This have been a good conversation
Thanks for your reply, I guess we just have different standards for developers and our games. I can agree to disagree, but I see no reason to pick through your reply and fight someone who isn't really anyone I know and or have any issue with. Good luck. By the way you're using examples that are far out of date and not really relatable to today, like Wendys? Totally different times, with different means.
I do find it comical though people keep quoting same things without really reading the whole thread and replies, and just keep bringing up one point over and over.
Can anyone answer me why then they apparently 8000 kickstarters that helping originally? This is according to Greed Monger that they lost 8000+. Anyone? Hello? Everyone will disagree with me here, call me the bad guy, say I am not qualified to have an opinion, but no one ever can answer this question because the truth is while a small group here may still like Greed Monger, there's more who realize their issues.
No need, as it is your money, i just found it hilarious that having a degree in game design have reached such acclaim in the eyes of the public that it is a deal breaker. I am not doubting that in maybe 10-15 years such athing might actually be worth anything in reality but seeing as most game educations are still finding their way i highly doubt it.
That was a very silly point to begin with and you must have realised that people would pick hard on that one.
This have been a good conversation
Some people don't really care.
You started your entire post ranting that someone isn't qualified to do something because they don't have a degree in. Hard to take any other of the opinions you stated as having merit.
You're simply wrong man. A degree doesn't make anyone qualified to do anything, it only means you're supposed to be competent enough to do a job in that field, and that's not even guaranteed.
I guess you never played a bioware game, or heard of bioware.
No, I expected this community to know how to read a whole post, actually. I guess you, and others, failed to do that, no offense. Having a game design or game design backgound isn't required (as I am saying this now for a third time), but I PERSONALLY feel more assured if someone has a history in game design, not someone who just is doing this spontaneously out of the blue with prior projects and history of development, nor codes, models, or really does any actual developing.
I am not saying that will deteremine a game's success, but I am saying that I think his lack of being in the industry shows more than his actual development team, because he's overly vocal and aggressive to the point where you can tell his level of professionalism is low, and for ME (PERSONALLY) I just am turned off by that. It makes me feel like he's not that serious about the project, that he's too reckless to really be thinking about the consequences of his actions, and those actions so far have lost him 8000+ backers.
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Holy Flamin' Frost-Brand Gronk-Slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' Woundin' an' Returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-Out-Yer-Bum!! ~Planescape: Torment~
I actually read your entire post. I do get it, and don't blame you for being skeptical. Seriously, I wouldn't give the guy money, but not for your reasons.
I'm a self-taught artist, and it's not arrogance or cockiness that allows me to say that there is no kid in art school learning traditional art that knows more than me or can paint better than me just because they're in art school.
Telling anyone, I don't care how horrible they may be, that they aren't qualified without a degree is unacceptable. Saying something after the fact means little to me, when I can go to your OP and there it is.
Right this moment, the very first bullet point. "He's not qualified because he doesn't have a degree". You are wrong for writting that.
You know, I play a game that started off as a garage project by a husband and wife. They had no real game design background but that didn't stop them. The game they developed with a team of less than 10 people was called Mount and Blade. When it was first released as a demo back in 2005 it's graphics were not all that greeat and the game was far from looking good. When I started playing it(the demo), it had gotten a bit of a graphics make-over and the game play was more refined. Today I consider Mount and Blade: Warband one of the greatest games ever made.
As I recall, Asheron's Call was created the same way basically. Just a group of people that had a passion to make a great game. They worked in this guys living room. They took their demo to MicroSoft. MicroSoft liked what they saw and gave them the funding they needed to get the game finished and onto the market. Turbine was born and the rest is history.
BTW - The Wright Brothers - the guys that built the first powered airplane that actually sustained flight - started out building bycicles. They learned their craft of building airplanes as they went. Thye didn't graduate from college with an aeronautical engineering degree.
Sometimes - great things come from unexpected places.
I honestly dont understand why you're posting this rant. So what if he doesnt have a degree, anyone can make games if they want, heck anyone can do whatever they please. And you cant compare minecraft with an mmorpg, different genre and game. There's a reason why only man was able to make minecraft and not an mmorpg.
I welcome Greed Monger, it's a breath of fresh air in the industry.
Anyway, not gonna put more effort into this thread, it just feels like OP has some sort of hidden agenda here.
I would say his agenda is very plainly stated.
He wants to get the word out that people without degrees aren't qualified to work.
That is not what I said at all, Uhwop, it's people like who sadly have an inability to read fully that make these discussions go down a far more illogical and silly road because you can't really understand a civil discussion, instead you just clog it with twisted words and quotes out of context and not reading the follow-ups to my points. I am sorry for your inability to read, but if that is all you gathered from my post -- so be it, luckily not everyone was at your level and it was good talking to others (who can read), and I thank everyone for their replies.
I know the post wasn't needed, but in a sense you must understand as a funder I didn't know much of this information before Appleton kind of got into some forum-battle, then I started to read up on it, and some of the facts. You have to realize for some people who didn't investigate the game, but invested a small amount to help, feel somewhat duped. Especially when you find out the Lead Designer used fake Facebook accounts to get more popularity, it all seems to flimsy and shady. It wasn't something I wanted involved with.
That's my personal opinion, and I do blame myself for not taking better initiative to looking into the company and designers themselves. In the end though, there's just been a lot of backing out from Kickstart (8000+ people), and I wanted to explain one side. You may say, "Well those things are so trivial, who cares?" I care, I care because if I can't trust a developer and leader, I just don't want to trust my money to that person. Others may be more trusting, but to me it's earned, not given. No matter what people will take what you say and hear it how they please, they'll accuse me of character asssination, secondary agendas, and hating the game. I don't, and I can't refute everyone's statement, merely just shrug it off. If that is what people think my goal was, sorry to mislead you, it wasn't.
Greg Street, Raph Koster, Gabe Newell, and many others would like to have a word with the OP about "Game Designer" degrees...
Personally I think game leadership/organizational capability is way greater than any paid for designer degree, or any non-technical/academic degrees for that matter, since they are skills that cannot be learned through lectures and exams.
**Please read here if you only read one paragraph of my post (Krage/Uhwop) In regards to the "degree" in game design**
Again -- you should read the thread, I've addressed that point several times and I never state because they don't have a game design degree doesn't mean they can't lead a game. I did state someone with such little background often can come off as sloppy and amateurish without a background in game design and having previous projects under their belt, which is how I see Appleton and Greed Monger. I think he lacks a certain professionalism that he would of acquired better if he had more training and experience in the game world.
I make no mention of needing a degree, you're just looking for something to pick out of a long post to dwell on that isn't true, sorry but it's just poor reading skills or ... well, I don't know what else -- I guess just poor reading skills. No where do I state he is required to have a game design degree in order to be an efficent and good leader. I don't believe that, I know many freelancer workers with no game design degree and working on games. Again, I never said that, if that's how you read it (and then you fail to read everything else) then I am sorry for you.
Again -- I don't care if he has a degree, but I did mention he didn't have one. I mentioned he has a mixed up background that didn't really dwell much into gaming and coding. It seemed like he hopped careers every year, and that this was just a "phase" for him. He listed off more career jobs than most people have, which had me greatly concerned that he was really "serious" to be in the gaming industry. I can't stress and say it enough that I don't think a degree matters, but I think if he had more experience in gaming industry he wouldn't come off as so brash and would have a more proper professional attitude, instead he comes across as just a regular guy -- and in some posts in Greed Monger forums and another forum he posts at he even goes as far to insult people and "troll."
Company Owner
MMO Interactive
I hope your game does well, as I said. If it is released ever I will try it out, but I do think you need to relook at your Public Relations and hire someone to handle that for you. Jason Appleton likely has another side that you all see and understand, but to a random investor like myself who never met him -- I don't feel ensured by anything he says. That YouTube interview made me have so many more questions and doubts of the project because of his responses to many things.
The game concept sounds "new" to a degree, I think there's games like it, but it seems fun, but overall I think the way your team is perceived and reputation is kept is important to your success. Going to such lengths like Appleton did to join another game's forum and start a fight is uncalled for, and his answers about using fake Facebook people to get more noticed isn't very trusting.
I will hopefully end here with this post. I do wish you guys luck, I do want more creative MMOs out there, but I think like many others (As Greed Monger has stated there was a lot of funding and backers who left), there is just a level of doubt. I was on board when I didn't know Appleton, let me put it that way. I was probably better off with the wool over my eyes and believing what I wanted, and when I saw the actual truth I was skeptic and doubtful. My goal here wasn't to bash your game, I never listed off any negative things about the game itself -- because it's not the game I have issues with. The game looks like it could be something, but if the management is under such a weird and odd control I don't think it's the game for me.
This is your quote "Jason Appleton isn't a game designer, he doesn't have a degree in game design or coding. He also has no prior game industry experience besides merely PLAYING games, which everyone has, but that doesn't make you capable of leading a team. Yes, he may have experience in leadership and marketting, but it is not the same."
It implies his lack of degree or coding knowledge eliminates him from being a game designer. Then you sort of contradict by saying his experience of playing games does not make him capable of leading a team, although he has experience in leadership and marketing.
Your opinion from what I gathered from that first part of your post is he is not qualified to design a game due to his lack of experience and degree, which is fine since it is your opinion. I simply posted some very successful game developers who did not have game design experience or game designer degrees.
As for you elaborating and saying he lacks professionalism which would be increased from industry experince that is probably true, although his level of professionalism varies from what others posted on their opinions of his professionalism.
My reading comprehension is fine, perhaps my explanation shows how I came to my conclusion based on your OP so perhaps if several people "misread" your post or lack "reading comprehension" its more of a failure on your part?
As for the rest of the entire OP its all legitimate concerns, I have no horse in this race.