In the past 6-10 years everything but subscriptions to games have gone up 100%+ lol. We are paying less. Think about it this way, where else and what else can you do for 24/7 entertainment for just 50 cents a day? You cant.
TV .. that is even cheaper if you watch some ads .. or surf on your ipad when it is commercial time.
And i never said it isn't affordable. But if it can be even cheaper, why would i even pay 50 cent for it?
Do you realy think its free?
I don't think it is free .. i know so. Look at the other thread. Data shows that more than 50% of MMO players in the US don't pay. So for a majority, it is free.
And google the amount of money americans spend on cash shops yearly Always data to show one side or the other. The only thing that data shows me is games suck now lol. No features, no creativity, no ambition, no longevity, and they are dumbed down so bad. Who would want to pay for that?
I want to point out that Narius always leaves out some crucial information. For instance, the retention rate. A lot of those people included in the not paying category only played the game for a day to a week and then took off. Seems like it would skew the numbers in a certain direction now doesnt it?
I am so tired of this argument. Free to play is never free to play and more often than not it becomes more expensive than a sub. There is a reason devs like it, p2w unlocks earning potential for them, at least until western players figure out that's what is happening and bail.
Data said otherwise. A majority of MMO players don't pay. That is the definition of free.
So now, let's cast our gaze over there at GW2. Buy to play, pay your $60 and that's it. Cash shop, but it's all fluff. They've successfully (so far) avoided anything resembling P2W. Monthly content updates (so far), with promised massive ones coming in January and February, no added charges.
If ArenaNet can maintain this pace, relying on box sales and a cash shop that has things people want as opposed to things people need we just may very well be seeing the death knells of future subscription models. (Someone correct me on this if I"m wrong, but isn't Trion and Rift also doing pretty much the same thing? Never played Rift, only hear what others say...)
Thing is, GW2 was never meant to be a sub game. It was designed to be super accessible, quick and easy. And it is. It's a great game for what it is, but if you try to compare the content of GW2 to an oldschool sub MMO such as EQ2, DAOC, you'll find that the content is drastically minute compared to the other two. There is simply no comparison in content or the amount of substantial updates. EQ2 can keep a sub because there is an immense amount more to do. GW2 never intended to compete in that market. GW2 is a shining example of a company setting out to get a target audience and succeeding. TSW on the other hand thought that they could present a minimal amount of content, and keep people playing. They did not do their research properly.
You are comparing a B2P with minimal content to a game that also had minimal content but was P2P. If TSW had more content, I'd still be subbing. But I literally BEAT the game. Why play more?
Just wanted to add, I also beat GW2. No reason to play it anymore either.
If you are going to design a game to be finished, when people finish they wont want to play. So yeah, the current crop of MMO's probably should go B2P, but ones with lots of content will be able to keep subs going. It's why I lasted so long in UO, EQ2, DAOC, WOW, and a few others. WoW is also proof of how this works. Their subs drop sharply once all the content is beaten, then they release a whack of new shit and its all back up and popular again for a period. Then dead. THey are only floating due to the constant updates. TSW didnt have that.
Beat GW2? Sure, I finished the personal story as well, but that's hardly "beating GW2". As far as content...
We had a huge Halloween update in October, we just had a big one in November, we have a giant Christmas update coming in December, and all of those have gone over really well, and I think in December people are going to be really excited. But January and February are actually are biggest updates to date. They’re even bigger than all the stuff we did in October, November and December. And I think that when people see how much stuff they’re gonna get for no monthly fee in January and February, they’re probably going to be blown away. These two months combined are basically an expansion’s worth of content for free.
I want to point out that Narius always leaves out some crucial information. For instance, the retention rate. A lot of those people included in the not paying category only played the game for a day to a week and then took off. Seems like it would skew the numbers in a certain direction now doesnt it?
1) And why is that important? So what if the retention rate is low.
2) The TOTAL revenue is higher for F2P MMO than P2P ones .. so even if players are hoping around more, it is still the bigger part (and trending bigger in the last 3 years) of the market.
Originally posted by madazz People WILL pay a sub if the game is what they want.
"This".
People pay subs all the time. One has a subscrtiption to cable, another has their phone use, another gym use.
I will agree that subscriptions can be a barrier to growing the population (as others have indicated) but I'm not convinced this is anything more than a revolvign door where players will come and go because they are curious or "need something to do".
So sure, f2p games have larger populations but does that mean that they all make bank? Don't think so.
Only a small amount of those players spend money and some of them spend quite a bit of money to make up for the rest.
But there's something that these F2P companies are doing that these "AAA" titles aren't doing and that's adding content and grind. I stated in my earlier posts, if they stop focusing on graphics and work more on larger portions of content as well as grind, that'll keep players going longer than the games that are failing the subscription models. Of course, WoW doesn't have the grind anymore. It doesn't need it, it has 10 years worth of content to back it up. Which is why they can allow players to blow through in less than a month.
These new games don't have that amount of content hense they can't compete with WoW.
The only F2P game that I can think of that has added content is any form of substantial amount in LOTRO. Even then it had to go to F2P because of its lack of content, and furthermore, it still can't keep up content wise to most of the sub games that are doing ti right. Which is why LOTRO is STILL dieing. F2P just made it a slow death instead of an instant one. Not saying F2P can't work.
But you guys are trying to signal that a sub game with 1 months worth of content going F2P is the end of SUBS. Well its just not a well thought out conclusion to come to.
There is a lack of content because developers are convinced that these games are designed around a quest-race and then bosses at the end. They will continue to fail and go F2P as long as they continue to develop poor quality games.
I agree. There are obviously players who don't mind, and actually crave that type of game. And that is 100% AWESOME for them. THOSE styles of games should be B2P or P2W as they don't offer the content of what a proper sub game should be. But to say a game with 1 months worth of content going F2P spells doom for the SUB games? Makes no sense at all.
So now, let's cast our gaze over there at GW2. Buy to play, pay your $60 and that's it. Cash shop, but it's all fluff. They've successfully (so far) avoided anything resembling P2W. Monthly content updates (so far), with promised massive ones coming in January and February, no added charges.
If ArenaNet can maintain this pace, relying on box sales and a cash shop that has things people want as opposed to things people need we just may very well be seeing the death knells of future subscription models. (Someone correct me on this if I"m wrong, but isn't Trion and Rift also doing pretty much the same thing? Never played Rift, only hear what others say...)
Thing is, GW2 was never meant to be a sub game. It was designed to be super accessible, quick and easy. And it is. It's a great game for what it is, but if you try to compare the content of GW2 to an oldschool sub MMO such as EQ2, DAOC, you'll find that the content is drastically minute compared to the other two. There is simply no comparison in content or the amount of substantial updates. EQ2 can keep a sub because there is an immense amount more to do. GW2 never intended to compete in that market. GW2 is a shining example of a company setting out to get a target audience and succeeding. TSW on the other hand thought that they could present a minimal amount of content, and keep people playing. They did not do their research properly.
You are comparing a B2P with minimal content to a game that also had minimal content but was P2P. If TSW had more content, I'd still be subbing. But I literally BEAT the game. Why play more?
Just wanted to add, I also beat GW2. No reason to play it anymore either.
If you are going to design a game to be finished, when people finish they wont want to play. So yeah, the current crop of MMO's probably should go B2P, but ones with lots of content will be able to keep subs going. It's why I lasted so long in UO, EQ2, DAOC, WOW, and a few others. WoW is also proof of how this works. Their subs drop sharply once all the content is beaten, then they release a whack of new shit and its all back up and popular again for a period. Then dead. THey are only floating due to the constant updates. TSW didnt have that.
Beat GW2? Sure, I finished the personal story as well, but that's hardly "beating GW2". As far as content...
We had a huge Halloween update in October, we just had a big one in November, we have a giant Christmas update coming in December, and all of those have gone over really well, and I think in December people are going to be really excited. But January and February are actually are biggest updates to date. They’re even bigger than all the stuff we did in October, November and December. And I think that when people see how much stuff they’re gonna get for no monthly fee in January and February, they’re probably going to be blown away. These two months combined are basically an expansion’s worth of content for free.
I did much more than beat the personal story. And I admit the game is good. But its not sub worthy. Its the kind of game you only back to in short spans due to the limited amount of content added. If they had much more, and no end game, the game could have been a sub game. But GW2 did it right. They created a heavily instanced game that was easily accessible and people love it! I am not putting down GW2.
In EQ2 I can play play play play play. I never need to take a break for content.
In GW2 I can play, then take a break, come back in a month for another weeks worth of content (a week is being generous), and then tale a break again.
Both are equally good in their respective categories. My point is, TSW is more to GW2 than it is to EQ2.
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I want to point out that Narius always leaves out some crucial information. For instance, the retention rate. A lot of those people included in the not paying category only played the game for a day to a week and then took off. Seems like it would skew the numbers in a certain direction now doesnt it?
1) And why is that important? So what if the retention rate is low.
2) The TOTAL revenue is higher for F2P MMO than P2P ones .. so even if players are hoping around more, it is still the bigger part (and trending bigger in the last 3 years) of the market.
Ok... so you are saying F2P is free, even though no one really sticks around to play it for free, and the only ones who do stick around are the ones who are paying?
You haven't been able to grasp this for some time narius....
I agree. There are obviously players who don't mind, and actually crave that type of game. And that is 100% AWESOME for them. THOSE styles of games should be B2P or P2W as they don't offer the content of what a proper sub game should be. But to say a game with 1 months worth of content going F2P spells doom for the SUB games? Makes no sense at all.
No one says "doom" yet. F2P is "only" 50% of the market in 2012. It grew from 39% to 50% (2010 to 2012) so obviously it is gaining ground. But half the market is still half the market.
The question, of course, is the number of F2P vs P2P games count (not revenue share). I bet WOW itself took a large part of the P2P market.
Now you are also wrong to say "a game with 1 months worth of content". If there is only one, it is trivial. But what about 120 games with 1 month of content? That is 10 years worth of content. It is not about ONE f2p game, it is about many of them collectively.
IF an MMO gave players what they wanted, they would be willing to pay a sub for it. The problem is gamers are a lot pickier now than they used to be. There's been a flood of MMO's on the market and with so many very nice AAA MMO's that don't have a sub, players know they don't have to pay one to get a good quality game.
Also it seems a lot of players simply don't know exactly what it is they want in an MMO. They want it to be different but at the same time have elements of their favorite games. However, if it's too similar to their favorite game, the new game gets labled a clone.
I really do feel for developers trying to create new games in this market. As a comedian might say, it's a tough crowd.
Why? Isn't it more natural for consumer to want to pay les for what they want? If the competition is providing me with a game with the same amount of fun with a lower price, is there a reason to choose the higher price one?
That is the nature of the free market.
In the past 6-10 years everything but subscriptions to games have gone up 100%+ lol. We are paying less. Think about it this way, where else and what else can you do for 24/7 entertainment for just 50 cents a day? You cant.
Games themselves have gone from 29.99 average to almost 70$ average. But the sub prices have been steady.
If people cant afford 50 cents a day to play they shouldnt try to change the entire industry so they can play and boost false claims its the way to go.
What many forget is F2P = easy for cheaters, exploiters, hackers, and much more just to make up a new account if banned. The amount of content is usualy cash shop orientated (atlantica online). More and more items you need for daily gaming is added to cash shops. Armor and weapon upgrades added to shops. Classes, skills, weapons, yadda yadda is added to cash shops. Homes, furniture, decor, pets, mounts are all added to shops.
Do you realy think its free?
You should see how terrible RaiderZ is being managed... ugh.... I don't care for F2P games but I try to keep an open mind. I find the combat in that game fun, but the exploiting and what I would call the worst spamming I have ever seen in any game just ruins it. They don't put in as much care as B2P or P2P games at all. There has been a spammer on for a week with a cryptic name that you cannot block. Actually thats not true, there are several of them.
I feel the exact opposite about putting as much care into P2P, F2P, or B2P game. It comes down to the the company and how willing they are to assisting their customers. I remember when I played DCUO and I personally found the Pistol glitch. It was in the game for easily over 3-4 months before it was fixed. How about the ability to climb walls in WoW? Remember that exploit? I remember being able to jump out of battlegrounds before the matches started. That exploit wasn't fixed until late Vanilla maybe even into burning crusade.
There are many more examples of these exploits and bugs where they came from. But, it just shows how unwilling a company is to fixing the problem no matter how game breaking it is regardless of P2P, F2P, or B2P.
Using DCUO is a bad example as it went F2P. Perhaps due to the neglect you pointed out? And I do remember the pistol glitch. I was getting mopped all over the floor with it until I learned out to turn it around on them (plus learn to use it hahah).
I want to point out that Narius always leaves out some crucial information. For instance, the retention rate. A lot of those people included in the not paying category only played the game for a day to a week and then took off. Seems like it would skew the numbers in a certain direction now doesnt it?
1) And why is that important? So what if the retention rate is low.
2) The TOTAL revenue is higher for F2P MMO than P2P ones .. so even if players are hoping around more, it is still the bigger part (and trending bigger in the last 3 years) of the market.
Ok... so you are saying F2P is free, even though no one really sticks around to play it for free, and the only ones who do stick around are the ones who are paying?
You haven't been able to grasp this for some time narius....
You are confused. I don't have to stick around ONE f2p game to keep playing. You don't get the concept that F2P players play MANY games? They don't have to "stick around" to keep playing.
In fact, that is the greatest flaw of P2P games, you have to stick around in ONE game.
Second post in this thread hits the nail on the head.
It is easy to say something like: 'yeah, if they would create a quality MMO, ppl would easily pay 15$ a month'. If you ask what a quality MMO would be, you get 3267897234 different answers. I agree that it has become very difficult to develop a MMO that requires a subscription. The bar has been set really high. If WoW would release now with the quality that it released with, it would have no chance.
People have become more and more fed up with bad MMOs.
Release an MMO thats worth $15 a month and people will pay $15 a month. Its really just that simple.
This. ^^
The recent F2P surge has nothing to do with an outdated model or people not willing to pay a sub. It's just accurately reflecting the state of the genre. There's not much out there worth paying the sub fee for. The quality of the games are down. The diversity is not there. Many of the games that have come out all have that "been here, done that" feel to them.
I agree with these folks. Being that the average age of an MMORPG gamer is now 26 and 50% of them have full-time jobs, money should not be the issue overall. In this case, TSW is a niche theme and never was going to achieve a high number of subs. It makes sense that they change the payment model to get more people to play and hope for meta-sales through a store since that has proven to make companies more money than subs. Chances are they already earned most, if not all, of the money they were hoping for with the box sales and the paid subs up till now.
I do not feel the comments in the interview tell the complete story. Just the one they want you to believe just like every other corporate marketing strategy.
I agree. There are obviously players who don't mind, and actually crave that type of game. And that is 100% AWESOME for them. THOSE styles of games should be B2P or P2W as they don't offer the content of what a proper sub game should be. But to say a game with 1 months worth of content going F2P spells doom for the SUB games? Makes no sense at all.
No one says "doom" yet. F2P is "only" 50% of the market in 2012. It grew from 39% to 50% (2010 to 2012) so obviously it is gaining ground. But half the market is still half the market.
The question, of course, is the number of F2P vs P2P games count (not revenue share). I bet WOW itself took a large part of the P2P market.
Now you are also wrong to say "a game with 1 months worth of content". If there is only one, it is trivial. But what about 120 games with 1 month of content? That is 10 years worth of content. It is not about ONE f2p game, it is about many of them collectively.
Narius, most MMO players are getting tired of jumping from game to game. The forums here have tried to express that to you. No one is saying that your form of gaming is wrong. It's just not what the majority want anymore which is why there is an over abundance of complaints about these games. That is why all these games are dieing. Slow deaths, but dieing none the less. You need to understand that your type of games will always be around, but our types WILL come back, and WILL be big again. Why? Because companies are greedy and we are willing to pay.
Also, I am not wrong about anything. That is just your opinion.
I want to point out that Narius always leaves out some crucial information. For instance, the retention rate. A lot of those people included in the not paying category only played the game for a day to a week and then took off. Seems like it would skew the numbers in a certain direction now doesnt it?
1) And why is that important? So what if the retention rate is low.
2) The TOTAL revenue is higher for F2P MMO than P2P ones .. so even if players are hoping around more, it is still the bigger part (and trending bigger in the last 3 years) of the market.
Ok... so you are saying F2P is free, even though no one really sticks around to play it for free, and the only ones who do stick around are the ones who are paying?
You haven't been able to grasp this for some time narius....
You are confused. I don't have to stick around ONE f2p game to keep playing. You don't get the concept that F2P players play MANY games? They don't have to "stick around" to keep playing.
In fact, that is the greatest flaw of P2P games, you have to stick around in ONE game.
You are confused. You think EVERYONE wants to jump from MMO to MMO. Stop speaking for everyone. I in no way said to ever stop making the type of game you like, but you seem to be trying to tell everyone on this forum that they are wrong becuse YOU like otherwise. You can't even back up ANYTHING you say with proper stats. You just take a line here and there out of context and leave out true stats. Such as F2P games actually costing money.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I want to point out that Narius always leaves out some crucial information. For instance, the retention rate. A lot of those people included in the not paying category only played the game for a day to a week and then took off. Seems like it would skew the numbers in a certain direction now doesnt it?
1) And why is that important? So what if the retention rate is low.
2) The TOTAL revenue is higher for F2P MMO than P2P ones .. so even if players are hoping around more, it is still the bigger part (and trending bigger in the last 3 years) of the market.
Ok... so you are saying F2P is free, even though no one really sticks around to play it for free, and the only ones who do stick around are the ones who are paying?
You haven't been able to grasp this for some time narius....
I truly don't see many games where the cash shop is BETTER than the late game gear. Don't get me wrong I have played some mmo's that have the Pay to win cash shops but the majority of them do not have items like that. Many are just conviences like 2x exp, teleportation items, or fashion items.
Yes and my point was the majority of people that stick with a F2P game actually buy those things in the store. It doesn't matter what the items are. Could be armour, xp, novelty stuff. Doesnt matter. The stats show that the players who stick around are the ones who paid.
I agree. There are obviously players who don't mind, and actually crave that type of game. And that is 100% AWESOME for them. THOSE styles of games should be B2P or P2W as they don't offer the content of what a proper sub game should be. But to say a game with 1 months worth of content going F2P spells doom for the SUB games? Makes no sense at all.
No one says "doom" yet. F2P is "only" 50% of the market in 2012. It grew from 39% to 50% (2010 to 2012) so obviously it is gaining ground. But half the market is still half the market.
The question, of course, is the number of F2P vs P2P games count (not revenue share). I bet WOW itself took a large part of the P2P market.
Now you are also wrong to say "a game with 1 months worth of content". If there is only one, it is trivial. But what about 120 games with 1 month of content? That is 10 years worth of content. It is not about ONE f2p game, it is about many of them collectively.
Narius, most MMO players are getting tired of jumping from game to game. The forums here have tried to express that to you. No one is saying that your form of gaming is wrong. It's just not what the majority want anymore which is why there is an over abundance of complaints about these games. That is why all these games are dieing. Slow deaths, but dieing none the less. You need to understand that your type of games will always be around, but our types WILL come back, and WILL be big again. Why? Because companies are greedy and we are willing to pay.
Also, I am not wrong about anything. That is just your opinion.
You have a lot of unsubstantiated statement.
"most MMO players are getting tired of jumping from game to game" .. really? Then tell me why F2P MMOs (which obviously is more conducive to game hoping" is gaining market share from P2P games.
"It's just not what the majority want anymore which is why there is an over abundance of complaints about these games." .. you jsut don't know what the majority wants. WOW just stablized at 10M sub, and Eve is less than 0.5M. Don't you agree more people want WOW than EVE?
"That is why all these games are dieing" .. what is dying. How many games are closed? And even if some are dying, if the market replaces them with new games, so what?
"Because companies are greedy and we are willing to pay." ... LOL .. the fact that a majoirty of MMO players do not pay is a direct rebute of this statement. We are NOT willing to pay .. at least a lot of us. Personally i just quit my WOW sub and will go 100% f2P on MMOs. Tell me .. am i "willing to pay"?
This discussion is not abotu waht i want .. but the industry trends.
So now, let's cast our gaze over there at GW2. Buy to play, pay your $60 and that's it. Cash shop, but it's all fluff. They've successfully (so far) avoided anything resembling P2W. Monthly content updates (so far), with promised massive ones coming in January and February, no added charges.
If ArenaNet can maintain this pace, relying on box sales and a cash shop that has things people want as opposed to things people need we just may very well be seeing the death knells of future subscription models. (Someone correct me on this if I"m wrong, but isn't Trion and Rift also doing pretty much the same thing? Never played Rift, only hear what others say...)
Thing is, GW2 was never meant to be a sub game. It was designed to be super accessible, quick and easy. And it is. It's a great game for what it is, but if you try to compare the content of GW2 to an oldschool sub MMO such as EQ2, DAOC, you'll find that the content is drastically minute compared to the other two. There is simply no comparison in content or the amount of substantial updates. EQ2 can keep a sub because there is an immense amount more to do. GW2 never intended to compete in that market. GW2 is a shining example of a company setting out to get a target audience and succeeding. TSW on the other hand thought that they could present a minimal amount of content, and keep people playing. They did not do their research properly.
You are comparing a B2P with minimal content to a game that also had minimal content but was P2P. If TSW had more content, I'd still be subbing. But I literally BEAT the game. Why play more?
Just wanted to add, I also beat GW2. No reason to play it anymore either.
If you are going to design a game to be finished, when people finish they wont want to play. So yeah, the current crop of MMO's probably should go B2P, but ones with lots of content will be able to keep subs going. It's why I lasted so long in UO, EQ2, DAOC, WOW, and a few others. WoW is also proof of how this works. Their subs drop sharply once all the content is beaten, then they release a whack of new shit and its all back up and popular again for a period. Then dead. THey are only floating due to the constant updates. TSW didnt have that.
Beat GW2? Sure, I finished the personal story as well, but that's hardly "beating GW2". As far as content...
We had a huge Halloween update in October, we just had a big one in November, we have a giant Christmas update coming in December, and all of those have gone over really well, and I think in December people are going to be really excited. But January and February are actually are biggest updates to date. They’re even bigger than all the stuff we did in October, November and December. And I think that when people see how much stuff they’re gonna get for no monthly fee in January and February, they’re probably going to be blown away. These two months combined are basically an expansion’s worth of content for free.
I did much more than beat the personal story. And I admit the game is good. But its not sub worthy. Its the kind of game you only back to in short spans due to the limited amount of content added. If they had much more, and no end game, the game could have been a sub game. But GW2 did it right. They created a heavily instanced game that was easily accessible and people love it! I am not putting down GW2.
In EQ2 I can play play play play play. I never need to take a break for content.
In GW2 I can play, then take a break, come back in a month for another weeks worth of content (a week is being generous), and then tale a break again.
Both are equally good in their respective categories. My point is, TSW is more to GW2 than it is to EQ2.
Heavily instanced? Limited content? Are we talking about GW2 or GW1 (which is heavily instanced)?
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
You are confused. You think EVERYONE wants to jump from MMO to MMO. Stop speaking for everyone. I in no way said to ever stop making the type of game you like, but you seem to be trying to tell everyone on this forum that they are wrong becuse YOU like otherwise. You can't even back up ANYTHING you say with proper stats. You just take a line here and there out of context and leave out true stats. Such as F2P games actually costing money.
NOt everyone. Just a large part of the MMO market. Did you actually read the report? If you dont' think the F2P is growing, you need to learn to read numbers better.
So now, let's cast our gaze over there at GW2. Buy to play, pay your $60 and that's it. Cash shop, but it's all fluff. They've successfully (so far) avoided anything resembling P2W. Monthly content updates (so far), with promised massive ones coming in January and February, no added charges.
If ArenaNet can maintain this pace, relying on box sales and a cash shop that has things people want as opposed to things people need we just may very well be seeing the death knells of future subscription models. (Someone correct me on this if I"m wrong, but isn't Trion and Rift also doing pretty much the same thing? Never played Rift, only hear what others say...)
Thing is, GW2 was never meant to be a sub game. It was designed to be super accessible, quick and easy. And it is. It's a great game for what it is, but if you try to compare the content of GW2 to an oldschool sub MMO such as EQ2, DAOC, you'll find that the content is drastically minute compared to the other two. There is simply no comparison in content or the amount of substantial updates. EQ2 can keep a sub because there is an immense amount more to do. GW2 never intended to compete in that market. GW2 is a shining example of a company setting out to get a target audience and succeeding. TSW on the other hand thought that they could present a minimal amount of content, and keep people playing. They did not do their research properly.
You are comparing a B2P with minimal content to a game that also had minimal content but was P2P. If TSW had more content, I'd still be subbing. But I literally BEAT the game. Why play more?
Just wanted to add, I also beat GW2. No reason to play it anymore either.
If you are going to design a game to be finished, when people finish they wont want to play. So yeah, the current crop of MMO's probably should go B2P, but ones with lots of content will be able to keep subs going. It's why I lasted so long in UO, EQ2, DAOC, WOW, and a few others. WoW is also proof of how this works. Their subs drop sharply once all the content is beaten, then they release a whack of new shit and its all back up and popular again for a period. Then dead. THey are only floating due to the constant updates. TSW didnt have that.
Beat GW2? Sure, I finished the personal story as well, but that's hardly "beating GW2". As far as content...
We had a huge Halloween update in October, we just had a big one in November, we have a giant Christmas update coming in December, and all of those have gone over really well, and I think in December people are going to be really excited. But January and February are actually are biggest updates to date. They’re even bigger than all the stuff we did in October, November and December. And I think that when people see how much stuff they’re gonna get for no monthly fee in January and February, they’re probably going to be blown away. These two months combined are basically an expansion’s worth of content for free.
I did much more than beat the personal story. And I admit the game is good. But its not sub worthy. Its the kind of game you only back to in short spans due to the limited amount of content added. If they had much more, and no end game, the game could have been a sub game. But GW2 did it right. They created a heavily instanced game that was easily accessible and people love it! I am not putting down GW2.
In EQ2 I can play play play play play. I never need to take a break for content.
In GW2 I can play, then take a break, come back in a month for another weeks worth of content (a week is being generous), and then tale a break again.
Both are equally good in their respective categories. My point is, TSW is more to GW2 than it is to EQ2.
Heavily instanced? Limited content? Are we talking about GW2 or GW1 (which is heavily instanced)?
I honestly did feel it was heavily instanced. And yes, I felt the content was limited, but fun. Such as shooting myself ontop of a tower, was an interesting little bit of content, but only took up like 5 minutes of my time. If you feel different, than thats ok in my books. I still feel GW2 did it right. They created a great game for B2P but not SUB.
I want to point out that Narius always leaves out some crucial information. For instance, the retention rate. A lot of those people included in the not paying category only played the game for a day to a week and then took off. Seems like it would skew the numbers in a certain direction now doesnt it?
1) And why is that important? So what if the retention rate is low.
2) The TOTAL revenue is higher for F2P MMO than P2P ones .. so even if players are hoping around more, it is still the bigger part (and trending bigger in the last 3 years) of the market.
Ok... so you are saying F2P is free, even though no one really sticks around to play it for free, and the only ones who do stick around are the ones who are paying?
You haven't been able to grasp this for some time narius....
You are confused. I don't have to stick around ONE f2p game to keep playing. You don't get the concept that F2P players play MANY games? They don't have to "stick around" to keep playing.
In fact, that is the greatest flaw of P2P games, you have to stick around in ONE game.
You are confused. You think EVERYONE wants to jump from MMO to MMO. Stop speaking for everyone. I in no way said to ever stop making the type of game you like, but you seem to be trying to tell everyone on this forum that they are wrong becuse YOU like otherwise. You can't even back up ANYTHING you say with proper stats. You just take a line here and there out of context and leave out true stats. Such as F2P games actually costing money.
I'm sorry but, a gamer is going to jump from game to game no matter how good the games are. Playing the same exact thing affects everyone and you will get burnt out doing so. So regardless of how good a game is or how bad it might be. You're not going to sit there and ONLY play 1 game.
I do have to say players don't HAVE to play one game but when you're pay for a subscription you're more inclined to playing that one because you're otherwise pissing away money. While F2P games don't have that restriction.
If you could read the previous posts that came before this, you'd see the argument was about F2P not retaining customers unless they are paying people. Most people who don't pay are not finding games they enjoy for more than a day or week. That is fine for them, but not the majority of MMO players.
Also, where did I say people only want to play 1 game? I played DAOC for over a year.... do you really think I missed out on all the other console and PC games out there because I was subbed to DAOC?
This new trend here of people implying things that werent said to try to present an argument needs to stop.
You are confused. You think EVERYONE wants to jump from MMO to MMO. Stop speaking for everyone. I in no way said to ever stop making the type of game you like, but you seem to be trying to tell everyone on this forum that they are wrong becuse YOU like otherwise. You can't even back up ANYTHING you say with proper stats. You just take a line here and there out of context and leave out true stats. Such as F2P games actually costing money.
NOt everyone. Just a large part of the MMO market. Did you actually read the report? If you dont' think the F2P is growing, you need to learn to read numbers better.
If you are not going to respond to my post then we are done.
I do not appreciate you creating a strawman argument about F2P growing when I did not say such a thing. This is what you do in every thread.
Comments
I want to point out that Narius always leaves out some crucial information. For instance, the retention rate. A lot of those people included in the not paying category only played the game for a day to a week and then took off. Seems like it would skew the numbers in a certain direction now doesnt it?
Data said otherwise. A majority of MMO players don't pay. That is the definition of free.
Beat GW2? Sure, I finished the personal story as well, but that's hardly "beating GW2". As far as content...
We had a huge Halloween update in October, we just had a big one in November, we have a giant Christmas update coming in December, and all of those have gone over really well, and I think in December people are going to be really excited. But January and February are actually are biggest updates to date. They’re even bigger than all the stuff we did in October, November and December. And I think that when people see how much stuff they’re gonna get for no monthly fee in January and February, they’re probably going to be blown away. These two months combined are basically an expansion’s worth of content for free.
Oderint, dum metuant.
1) And why is that important? So what if the retention rate is low.
2) The TOTAL revenue is higher for F2P MMO than P2P ones .. so even if players are hoping around more, it is still the bigger part (and trending bigger in the last 3 years) of the market.
I agree. There are obviously players who don't mind, and actually crave that type of game. And that is 100% AWESOME for them. THOSE styles of games should be B2P or P2W as they don't offer the content of what a proper sub game should be. But to say a game with 1 months worth of content going F2P spells doom for the SUB games? Makes no sense at all.
I did much more than beat the personal story. And I admit the game is good. But its not sub worthy. Its the kind of game you only back to in short spans due to the limited amount of content added. If they had much more, and no end game, the game could have been a sub game. But GW2 did it right. They created a heavily instanced game that was easily accessible and people love it! I am not putting down GW2.
In EQ2 I can play play play play play. I never need to take a break for content.
In GW2 I can play, then take a break, come back in a month for another weeks worth of content (a week is being generous), and then tale a break again.
Both are equally good in their respective categories. My point is, TSW is more to GW2 than it is to EQ2.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Ok... so you are saying F2P is free, even though no one really sticks around to play it for free, and the only ones who do stick around are the ones who are paying?
You haven't been able to grasp this for some time narius....
No one says "doom" yet. F2P is "only" 50% of the market in 2012. It grew from 39% to 50% (2010 to 2012) so obviously it is gaining ground. But half the market is still half the market.
The question, of course, is the number of F2P vs P2P games count (not revenue share). I bet WOW itself took a large part of the P2P market.
Now you are also wrong to say "a game with 1 months worth of content". If there is only one, it is trivial. But what about 120 games with 1 month of content? That is 10 years worth of content. It is not about ONE f2p game, it is about many of them collectively.
Using DCUO is a bad example as it went F2P. Perhaps due to the neglect you pointed out? And I do remember the pistol glitch. I was getting mopped all over the floor with it until I learned out to turn it around on them (plus learn to use it hahah).
You are confused. I don't have to stick around ONE f2p game to keep playing. You don't get the concept that F2P players play MANY games? They don't have to "stick around" to keep playing.
In fact, that is the greatest flaw of P2P games, you have to stick around in ONE game.
Second post in this thread hits the nail on the head.
It is easy to say something like: 'yeah, if they would create a quality MMO, ppl would easily pay 15$ a month'. If you ask what a quality MMO would be, you get 3267897234 different answers. I agree that it has become very difficult to develop a MMO that requires a subscription. The bar has been set really high. If WoW would release now with the quality that it released with, it would have no chance.
I agree with these folks. Being that the average age of an MMORPG gamer is now 26 and 50% of them have full-time jobs, money should not be the issue overall. In this case, TSW is a niche theme and never was going to achieve a high number of subs. It makes sense that they change the payment model to get more people to play and hope for meta-sales through a store since that has proven to make companies more money than subs. Chances are they already earned most, if not all, of the money they were hoping for with the box sales and the paid subs up till now.
I do not feel the comments in the interview tell the complete story. Just the one they want you to believe just like every other corporate marketing strategy.
Narius, most MMO players are getting tired of jumping from game to game. The forums here have tried to express that to you. No one is saying that your form of gaming is wrong. It's just not what the majority want anymore which is why there is an over abundance of complaints about these games. That is why all these games are dieing. Slow deaths, but dieing none the less. You need to understand that your type of games will always be around, but our types WILL come back, and WILL be big again. Why? Because companies are greedy and we are willing to pay.
Also, I am not wrong about anything. That is just your opinion.
You make me like charity
You are confused. You think EVERYONE wants to jump from MMO to MMO. Stop speaking for everyone. I in no way said to ever stop making the type of game you like, but you seem to be trying to tell everyone on this forum that they are wrong becuse YOU like otherwise. You can't even back up ANYTHING you say with proper stats. You just take a line here and there out of context and leave out true stats. Such as F2P games actually costing money.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Yes and my point was the majority of people that stick with a F2P game actually buy those things in the store. It doesn't matter what the items are. Could be armour, xp, novelty stuff. Doesnt matter. The stats show that the players who stick around are the ones who paid.
You have a lot of unsubstantiated statement.
"most MMO players are getting tired of jumping from game to game" .. really? Then tell me why F2P MMOs (which obviously is more conducive to game hoping" is gaining market share from P2P games.
"It's just not what the majority want anymore which is why there is an over abundance of complaints about these games." .. you jsut don't know what the majority wants. WOW just stablized at 10M sub, and Eve is less than 0.5M. Don't you agree more people want WOW than EVE?
"That is why all these games are dieing" .. what is dying. How many games are closed? And even if some are dying, if the market replaces them with new games, so what?
"Because companies are greedy and we are willing to pay." ... LOL .. the fact that a majoirty of MMO players do not pay is a direct rebute of this statement. We are NOT willing to pay .. at least a lot of us. Personally i just quit my WOW sub and will go 100% f2P on MMOs. Tell me .. am i "willing to pay"?
This discussion is not abotu waht i want .. but the industry trends.
Heavily instanced? Limited content? Are we talking about GW2 or GW1 (which is heavily instanced)?
Oderint, dum metuant.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
NOt everyone. Just a large part of the MMO market. Did you actually read the report? If you dont' think the F2P is growing, you need to learn to read numbers better.
I honestly did feel it was heavily instanced. And yes, I felt the content was limited, but fun. Such as shooting myself ontop of a tower, was an interesting little bit of content, but only took up like 5 minutes of my time. If you feel different, than thats ok in my books. I still feel GW2 did it right. They created a great game for B2P but not SUB.
If you could read the previous posts that came before this, you'd see the argument was about F2P not retaining customers unless they are paying people. Most people who don't pay are not finding games they enjoy for more than a day or week. That is fine for them, but not the majority of MMO players.
Also, where did I say people only want to play 1 game? I played DAOC for over a year.... do you really think I missed out on all the other console and PC games out there because I was subbed to DAOC?
This new trend here of people implying things that werent said to try to present an argument needs to stop.
If you are not going to respond to my post then we are done.
I do not appreciate you creating a strawman argument about F2P growing when I did not say such a thing. This is what you do in every thread.