SWTOR definitely copies WoW's formula. Before WoW, the following formula didn't exist:
Solo questing with optional group quests until max level + instanced non-persistant battlegrounds + instant dungeons + instanced small sized raids + gear grind + dailies = WoW model.
When WoW came out with that formula, the formula was fresh and well received. The problem came when almost every developer made that formula a staple for the genre.
Exactly. I remember when Duke Nuke'm first came out, FPS were fresh and new. Doom followed and then the genre spread into all sorts of different directions (even taking elements from RPGs). No one ever stopped and said, "HEY, you can't do that in a FPS!" The only requirement was the first person perspective.
MMO's main requirement should be: an online multiplayer game with a lot of players in a persistent world (which can be loosely translated). Yet a majority of players are still hanging onto the WoW model and the developers keep making games with these standards. What they don't understand is that MMO players are just like everyone else, nothing has changed in the gaming industry. They should focus on making a fun and entertaining game instead of trying to mimic popularity.
You can't recreate trends, you must stumble upon them.
Don't you think Bioware should stick to their strengths? Bioware isn't known ever for creating space simulation type of games. They're know for crafting good stories with multiple endings. They're not known for PvP either, although I think their warzones are decently made. Their engine really is too bad to create an open world PvP planet though, so they should shelve that idea completely.
If they had any proof of talent to create such a thing akin to the Jump to Light Speed question, then I might sing a different tune. Until then, I think they should expand upon the story on a regular basis, quarterly for sure.
By that logic, Bioware sticking to their storytelling strengths, they shouldn't really have thrown their hat into the MMO ring to begin with; space or no space.
ALthough I agree, the alpha engine was not ready to do what they thought it would do. That primary decision, coupled with Bioware's inexperience in MMO design (conscripting what was left of Mythic's talent following the Warhammer exodus wasn't much of a shot in hte arm) lead to many design descions which caused the development process to initially stagnate and cause delays, to a later accelerated pace of pared down design goals.
So I am agreeing with you. On all your points, including OPVP and that they don't currently (and most likely never will) have the in-house talent to add a Jump to Light Speed like expansion.
Those facts coupled with the financial realities of the EA run outfit, which has already had two rounds of lay-offs, make it seem unlikely despite an increase in revenue from the Cartel Shop, that they will hire outside talent to develop a Jump to Light Speed expansion to the game.
*Caveat - If there is one thing EA is good at is aquisitions. The only way that the game could surprise everyone and have a significant space element (in my opinion) is to outright buy a failed franchise such as the space MMO "Black Prophecy" and Frankenstein the different engine run game onto the SWTOR game.
Now I await someone to post that I'm a troll. (A certain someone who doesn't understand what that term means.)
Originally posted by superniceguy Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by superniceguyOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by superniceguyOriginally posted by lizardbones They didn't keep the SWG space combat system because SWToR isn't SWG2. It's a completely different game. The space combat in SWToR was one of the better elements of the game. It fit into the game's other "theme park" elements of the game just fine.
SWTOR is meant to be a MMO, not a single player game, which SWTORs space combat system is.STO is not the same as SWG, but it managed to provide a better MULTIPLAYER space game in a MMO than SWTOR. The game also did not take so long to make, or cost as much.SWG was just too awesome, you could have more than yourself piloting the ship, and have other players manning your guns. SWGs JTL was the ultimate online space game, and no other game or MMO does this at all, not even STO or EVEI suppose SWTOR space game is better than there being none, and just cutscenes instead, although that could have been pretty awesome actually, considering the gameplay is on rails and you do not have full control.The space game in SWTOR would have been better if they added in more DIFFERENT missions, instead of Republic AND Empire having the same missions, and then as you get further, you get the same missions AGAIN, but harder, when they should have done DIFFERENT AND HARDER missions. It was just lazy what was done, and players get tired of it a lot lot quicker.SWToR was meant to be exactly what it was. The rest of the game allowed for a single player focus, so there's no reason why they wouldn't do the same with the space game. It was a mini-game that fit the rest of the game. Of all the things they could put a ton of time and resources into, space missions isn't one of the things that's going to get them any mileage because the entire rest of the game would still be there. Ugly and just staring at you with one bloodshot, baleful eye. It would have an awesome hat, known as "Character Story Lines", and maybe a really nice briefcase, known as "Space Missions", but otherwise it would be dressed in trailer park chic. Turning the briefcase into a nice cane or monocle wouldn't make the rest of it any less ugly. SWTOR was meant to be a MMO, not a single player game like ME3 with multiplayer. If it was like ME3 then single player space would have been what it was meant to be.They should have incorporated space into the story, and made the space and space combat as cut scenes like the rest of the game.What they have done has all backfired as now they have less SUBBED players than SWG had (although has way more FREE players though)SWToR was an MMO. Just not a good one.Exactly, and that is why the space game is a failure, and SWTOR is not what it was meant to be, as a MMO is Massively Multiplayer focussed, not single player focussed which you claim it was.
The space game wasn't a failure. It's one of the few original things in the game, it's something they are expanding and it's something they can charge money for. That's not a failure.
There are many things about SWToR that need to be fixed, but space missions aren't one of them. Many people may not like them, but many people do like them. It's a preference, not a broken mechanic.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
My Star Wars dream game would be a combo of ToR, SWG, and EVE. I would add in the elements of the old table top SW game too in that for the actual game mechanics or use KoToR's D20 system. From SWG, I would take the sandbox nature of it and its crafting, social professions like politician and entertainer, community-building tools, and open planets, but keep ToR's storylines and legacy systems. From EVE I would use the ship ideas, mining, hauling and the like.
That would've been a truely awesome game.
As far as the factions, I agree that smugglers and bounty hunters should be in a 3rd neutral faction (such as the Hutts). Each of them should have the option (late in a story arc) to join either the republic, empire or stay neutral. In addition, the republic and empire players should have an option to betray their faction and join the opposite or become neutral.
That would've been a lot of work but if you look at it from the planning stages, it wouldn't be any more work than what they did. That's the premise of a designer to fit the concept into a plausible project.
Originally posted by lizardbones They didn't keep the SWG space combat system because SWToR isn't SWG2. It's a completely different game. The space combat in SWToR was one of the better elements of the game. It fit into the game's other "theme park" elements of the game just fine.
SWTOR is meant to be a MMO, not a single player game, which SWTORs space combat system is.STO is not the same as SWG, but it managed to provide a better MULTIPLAYER space game in a MMO than SWTOR. The game also did not take so long to make, or cost as much.SWG was just too awesome, you could have more than yourself piloting the ship, and have other players manning your guns. SWGs JTL was the ultimate online space game, and no other game or MMO does this at all, not even STO or EVEI suppose SWTOR space game is better than there being none, and just cutscenes instead, although that could have been pretty awesome actually, considering the gameplay is on rails and you do not have full control.The space game in SWTOR would have been better if they added in more DIFFERENT missions, instead of Republic AND Empire having the same missions, and then as you get further, you get the same missions AGAIN, but harder, when they should have done DIFFERENT AND HARDER missions. It was just lazy what was done, and players get tired of it a lot lot quicker.
SWToR was meant to be exactly what it was. The rest of the game allowed for a single player focus, so there's no reason why they wouldn't do the same with the space game. It was a mini-game that fit the rest of the game. Of all the things they could put a ton of time and resources into, space missions isn't one of the things that's going to get them any mileage because the entire rest of the game would still be there. Ugly and just staring at you with one bloodshot, baleful eye. It would have an awesome hat, known as "Character Story Lines", and maybe a really nice briefcase, known as "Space Missions", but otherwise it would be dressed in trailer park chic. Turning the briefcase into a nice cane or monocle wouldn't make the rest of it any less ugly.
SWTOR was meant to be a MMO, not a single player game like ME3 with multiplayer. If it was like ME3 then single player space would have been what it was meant to be.They should have incorporated space into the story, and made the space and space combat as cut scenes like the rest of the game.What they have done has all backfired as now they have less SUBBED players than SWG had (although has way more FREE players though)
SWToR was an MMO. Just not a good one.
Exactly, and that is why the space game is a failure, and SWTOR is not what it was meant to be, as a MMO is Massively Multiplayer focussed, not single player focussed which you claim it was.
The space game wasn't a failure. It's one of the few original things in the game, it's something they are expanding and it's something they can charge money for. That's not a failure.
There are many things about SWToR that need to be fixed, but space missions aren't one of them. Many people may not like them, but many people do like them. It's a preference, not a broken mechanic.
It is fine for a Nintendo 3DS game, but not a MMO. Is it a MMO or not? If SWTOR is a MMO, then the space game is a failure, if it is not a MMO then it is not a failure, although the way they have designed it is so lacking and cheap, as the missions are identical for BOTH the Imperial and the Reipublic, with the exact SAME ship flying and attack patterns, and then later you just get the exact same missions again but harder = PATHETIC
What they should have done was made the space part into cut senes, and when you travelled from planet to planet for the first time after a missions sends you there, there was a cut scene of a battle, maybe go into your ship and and speak on comms for some more cut scene dialgue, and your companions rush off to man the guns or whatever, and your group mates could watch / particpate like the rest of the game getting social points, then it would have fitted SWTOR perfectly, either that or do space like SWG / EVE /STO, but not this crap.
Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by superniceguy Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by superniceguyOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by superniceguyOriginally posted by lizardbones They didn't keep the SWG space combat system because SWToR isn't SWG2. It's a completely different game. The space combat in SWToR was one of the better elements of the game. It fit into the game's other "theme park" elements of the game just fine.
SWTOR is meant to be a MMO, not a single player game, which SWTORs space combat system is.STO is not the same as SWG, but it managed to provide a better MULTIPLAYER space game in a MMO than SWTOR. The game also did not take so long to make, or cost as much.SWG was just too awesome, you could have more than yourself piloting the ship, and have other players manning your guns. SWGs JTL was the ultimate online space game, and no other game or MMO does this at all, not even STO or EVEI suppose SWTOR space game is better than there being none, and just cutscenes instead, although that could have been pretty awesome actually, considering the gameplay is on rails and you do not have full control.The space game in SWTOR would have been better if they added in more DIFFERENT missions, instead of Republic AND Empire having the same missions, and then as you get further, you get the same missions AGAIN, but harder, when they should have done DIFFERENT AND HARDER missions. It was just lazy what was done, and players get tired of it a lot lot quicker.SWToR was meant to be exactly what it was. The rest of the game allowed for a single player focus, so there's no reason why they wouldn't do the same with the space game. It was a mini-game that fit the rest of the game. Of all the things they could put a ton of time and resources into, space missions isn't one of the things that's going to get them any mileage because the entire rest of the game would still be there. Ugly and just staring at you with one bloodshot, baleful eye. It would have an awesome hat, known as "Character Story Lines", and maybe a really nice briefcase, known as "Space Missions", but otherwise it would be dressed in trailer park chic. Turning the briefcase into a nice cane or monocle wouldn't make the rest of it any less ugly. SWTOR was meant to be a MMO, not a single player game like ME3 with multiplayer. If it was like ME3 then single player space would have been what it was meant to be.They should have incorporated space into the story, and made the space and space combat as cut scenes like the rest of the game.What they have done has all backfired as now they have less SUBBED players than SWG had (although has way more FREE players though)SWToR was an MMO. Just not a good one.Exactly, and that is why the space game is a failure, and SWTOR is not what it was meant to be, as a MMO is Massively Multiplayer focussed, not single player focussed which you claim it was.
The space game wasn't a failure. It's one of the few original things in the game, it's something they are expanding and it's something they can charge money for. That's not a failure.
There are many things about SWToR that need to be fixed, but space missions aren't one of them. Many people may not like them, but many people do like them. It's a preference, not a broken mechanic.
It is fine for a Nintendo 3DS game, but not a MMO. Is it a MMO or not? If SWTOR is a MMO, then the space game is a failure, if it is not a MMO then it is not a failure, although the way they have designed it is so lacking and cheap, as the missions are identical for BOTH the Imperial and the Reipublic, with the exact SAME ship flying and attack patterns, and then later you just get the exact same missions again but harder.
I have already listed many many reasons why swtor is a mmo and a good mmo. Because they have a minigame that is single player does in no way take away the rest of the game.
Originally posted by lizardbones They didn't keep the SWG space combat system because SWToR isn't SWG2. It's a completely different game. The space combat in SWToR was one of the better elements of the game. It fit into the game's other "theme park" elements of the game just fine.
Exactly, and that is why the space game is a failure, and SWTOR is not what it was meant to be, as a MMO is Massively Multiplayer focussed, not single player focussed which you claim it was.
The space game wasn't a failure. It's one of the few original things in the game, it's something they are expanding and it's something they can charge money for. That's not a failure.
There are many things about SWToR that need to be fixed, but space missions aren't one of them. Many people may not like them, but many people do like them. It's a preference, not a broken mechanic.
No, it's a failure. The minigame has been described as limited even by those who like it. It may be a relative success within the context of the success that the game has achieved (such as it is), but on the whole the decision to put the on rails system in as the only space portion of the game was a bad one.
It would have worked had no other space or Star Wars MMO ever existed, but given meatier options from predecessor games, this just looks like a flaccid add-on. Feedback (from as far back as beta) indicates that players overall thought this was bad.
This area of Swtor is completely uninteresting to me, love all the rest. I simply do not like this kind of fight. But still good thing is one is not forced to do it like in STO where that kind of fight is mondator part of questing.
One of the few things the game did right was space combat, its one of the VERY FEW things you can do in this game to get away from the story and hum-drum PvP instance grind and few end game instances.
The game lacks in things to do, to get away, to break the blandness that it is. It would have been different if the game had a bunch of other things to do, but it doesnt...the game needed something to pump some kind of action into it different enough that it didnt blend into the bad endgame. I wouldnt even want to imagine what SWTOR would be if the devs spent a massive amount of time building an open space combat system...what wouldnt have been done? The PvP? No raid content? No crafting which is bad enough as it is? The time it would have taken to make open space would have taken more than 1 if not all of those things out of the game.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
One of the few things the game did right was space combat, its one of the VERY FEW things you can do in this game to get away from the story and hum-drum PvP instance grind and few end game instances.
The game lacks in things to do, to get away, to break the blandness that it is. It would have been different if the game had a bunch of other things to do, but it doesnt...the game needed something to pump some kind of action into it different enough that it didnt blend into the bad endgame. I wouldnt even want to imagine what SWTOR would be if the devs spent a massive amount of time building an open space combat system...what wouldnt have been done? The PvP? No raid content? No crafting which is bad enough as it is? The time it would have taken to make open space would have taken more than 1 if not all of those things out of the game.
I just find the space game too annoying and frustating. The game has too much control, as you go to shoot at some turrets, the game pulls in another direction and you miss.
If it had cut scenes instead it could have been more thrilling and exciting
The space game in Lego Star Wars is similar but you have more control, with the whole map to fly back and forth on, and can do cool 180 turns in the Millennium Falcon. In SWTOR you can not do 180 turns it is forward and only forward, and with no slow or fast option.
After a while you end up getting good at it with 2 or so minutes left, and just have to wait for it to finish, and ends up being boring. At least the story is different, as long as not repeating side quests.
Maybe if they did not do the space combat game at all then crafting and other areas would have been better, and you would not have needed to "get away" from the story etc
If you want something else to take a break from the story, then there are many other better games to do that, and either way, even you play the SWTOR space game, you do nothing to help SWTOR and other players as a MMO.
The space game wasn't a failure. It's one of the few original things in the game, it's something they are expanding and it's something they can charge money for. That's not a failure.
There are many things about SWToR that need to be fixed, but space missions aren't one of them. Many people may not like them, but many people do like them. It's a preference, not a broken mechanic.
When content sees total usage of 0,5% yes you can call it a failure. Sevenstar can provide graphs.
Originally posted by superniceguy Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by superniceguyOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by superniceguyOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by superniceguyOriginally posted by lizardbones They didn't keep the SWG space combat system because SWToR isn't SWG2. It's a completely different game. The space combat in SWToR was one of the better elements of the game. It fit into the game's other "theme park" elements of the game just fine.
SWTOR is meant to be a MMO, not a single player game, which SWTORs space combat system is.STO is not the same as SWG, but it managed to provide a better MULTIPLAYER space game in a MMO than SWTOR. The game also did not take so long to make, or cost as much.SWG was just too awesome, you could have more than yourself piloting the ship, and have other players manning your guns. SWGs JTL was the ultimate online space game, and no other game or MMO does this at all, not even STO or EVEI suppose SWTOR space game is better than there being none, and just cutscenes instead, although that could have been pretty awesome actually, considering the gameplay is on rails and you do not have full control.The space game in SWTOR would have been better if they added in more DIFFERENT missions, instead of Republic AND Empire having the same missions, and then as you get further, you get the same missions AGAIN, but harder, when they should have done DIFFERENT AND HARDER missions. It was just lazy what was done, and players get tired of it a lot lot quicker.SWToR was meant to be exactly what it was. The rest of the game allowed for a single player focus, so there's no reason why they wouldn't do the same with the space game. It was a mini-game that fit the rest of the game. Of all the things they could put a ton of time and resources into, space missions isn't one of the things that's going to get them any mileage because the entire rest of the game would still be there. Ugly and just staring at you with one bloodshot, baleful eye. It would have an awesome hat, known as "Character Story Lines", and maybe a really nice briefcase, known as "Space Missions", but otherwise it would be dressed in trailer park chic. Turning the briefcase into a nice cane or monocle wouldn't make the rest of it any less ugly. SWTOR was meant to be a MMO, not a single player game like ME3 with multiplayer. If it was like ME3 then single player space would have been what it was meant to be.They should have incorporated space into the story, and made the space and space combat as cut scenes like the rest of the game.What they have done has all backfired as now they have less SUBBED players than SWG had (although has way more FREE players though)SWToR was an MMO. Just not a good one.Exactly, and that is why the space game is a failure, and SWTOR is not what it was meant to be, as a MMO is Massively Multiplayer focussed, not single player focussed which you claim it was. The space game wasn't a failure. It's one of the few original things in the game, it's something they are expanding and it's something they can charge money for. That's not a failure. There are many things about SWToR that need to be fixed, but space missions aren't one of them. Many people may not like them, but many people do like them. It's a preference, not a broken mechanic. It is fine for a Nintendo 3DS game, but not a MMO. Is it a MMO or not? If SWTOR is a MMO, then the space game is a failure, if it is not a MMO then it is not a failure, although the way they have designed it is so lacking and cheap, as the missions are identical for BOTH the Imperial and the Reipublic, with the exact SAME ship flying and attack patterns, and then later you just get the exact same missions again but harder = PATHETIC
What they should have done was made the space part into cut senes, and when you travelled from planet to planet for the first time after a missions sends you there, there was a cut scene of a battle, maybe go into your ship and and speak on comms for some more cut scene dialgue, and your companions rush off to man the guns or whatever, and your group mates could watch / particpate like the rest of the game getting social points, then it would have fitted SWTOR perfectly, either that or do space like SWG / EVE /STO, but not this crap.
That doesn't even make sense. Having single player content in an MMO doesn't make the single player content a failure, it just makes it single player content. It's still down to a preference. If the space missions were a failure, nobody would have played them. Nobody would have bothered spending the time to build their ships up to the point that they could do the heroic level 50 space missions. People did the space missions until they could do the heroic space mission(s?). They succeeded at what they were intended to do, provide people playing the game with something to do.
The kind of changes you're talking about would make sense if they fixed pretty much the entire rest of the game. No matter what they add to the game, you still have to go through the character story line to level (this part is ok), and you still have to go through all of the mediocre world quests to level (this part is not ok) and you still have to use the recycled combat mechanics and skill trees to play your character (this is probably the worst part). All of that would still be there. Changing the "space game" wouldn't take any of that stuff away and wouldn't make it any less cr@ppy.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by mikahr Originally posted by lizardbones The space game wasn't a failure. It's one of the few original things in the game, it's something they are expanding and it's something they can charge money for. That's not a failure. There are many things about SWToR that need to be fixed, but space missions aren't one of them. Many people may not like them, but many people do like them. It's a preference, not a broken mechanic.
When content sees total usage of 0,5% yes you can call it a failure. Sevenstar can provide graphs.
Who or what is Sevenstar? Is this another one of those things where someone does manually polling of the number of players on a server?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The thing that failed about Space Combat wasn't Space Combat. It was people's perception of what it was going to be like. I personally like it. I liked it more than actually questing. It took me back to the good ol' days of Starfox, except I didn't have a froggy ribbiting in my ear all the time haha. I think most people thought it was going to be open combat, and you could shoot other players like eve. It would be great to someday have a space MMO with a vast open universe to jet around in, and took you hours to go across the galaxy, but I doubt that will ever happen.
The space game wasn't a failure. It's one of the few original things in the game, it's something they are expanding and it's something they can charge money for. That's not a failure.
There are many things about SWToR that need to be fixed, but space missions aren't one of them. Many people may not like them, but many people do like them. It's a preference, not a broken mechanic.
When content sees total usage of 0,5% yes you can call it a failure. Sevenstar can provide graphs.
And how many people use "enter cantina name here"?
If we look, we will find a very long list of things in the game that is not being used much. Guess thats why they lost such a large portion of players and went F2P...which was my point...if they had spent the kind of time needed to make a full space combat game, how much more would the game be missing countering the effect of having full space making it hurt the game more than helping since it is already lacking in so many other things.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by lizardbones Who or what is Sevenstar? Is this another one of those things where someone does manually polling of the number of players on a server?
Ehm, EA released content usage numbers....well, percentages because you like to nitpick.
And theres nothing wrong with "manual polling" its accepted method for...you know...counting stuff. I did some myself back in student days when i was included in some study.
Originally posted by jtcgs
And how many people use "enter cantina name here"?
If we look, we will find a very long list of things in the game that is not being used much. Guess thats why they lost such a large portion of players and went F2P...which was my point...if they had spent the kind of time needed to make a full space combat game, how much more would the game be missing countering the effect of having full space making it hurt the game more than helping since it is already lacking in so many other things.
Cantina is not playable content.
And you are right, until they could provide proprt space experience they should not have released anything.
And you are right, until they could provide proprt space experience they should not have released anything.
OOH you almost got it.
Cantina's were playable content in SWG just because they made it so you could get a buff in it by watching people dance. Amazing huh?
THATS THE POINT. The game is missing so many things that if they had spent a lot of time making open space the game would be MISSING EVEN MORE of the little content it DOES have now!
So, by making space the way they did, they did it the RIGHT WAY because it ADDS to the game by providing something that didnt take away from the rest of the game!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by lizardbones They didn't keep the SWG space combat system because SWToR isn't SWG2. It's a completely different game. The space combat in SWToR was one of the better elements of the game. It fit into the game's other "theme park" elements of the game just fine.
SWTOR is meant to be a MMO, not a single player game, which SWTORs space combat system is.STO is not the same as SWG, but it managed to provide a better MULTIPLAYER space game in a MMO than SWTOR. The game also did not take so long to make, or cost as much.SWG was just too awesome, you could have more than yourself piloting the ship, and have other players manning your guns. SWGs JTL was the ultimate online space game, and no other game or MMO does this at all, not even STO or EVEI suppose SWTOR space game is better than there being none, and just cutscenes instead, although that could have been pretty awesome actually, considering the gameplay is on rails and you do not have full control.The space game in SWTOR would have been better if they added in more DIFFERENT missions, instead of Republic AND Empire having the same missions, and then as you get further, you get the same missions AGAIN, but harder, when they should have done DIFFERENT AND HARDER missions. It was just lazy what was done, and players get tired of it a lot lot quicker.
SWToR was meant to be exactly what it was. The rest of the game allowed for a single player focus, so there's no reason why they wouldn't do the same with the space game. It was a mini-game that fit the rest of the game. Of all the things they could put a ton of time and resources into, space missions isn't one of the things that's going to get them any mileage because the entire rest of the game would still be there. Ugly and just staring at you with one bloodshot, baleful eye. It would have an awesome hat, known as "Character Story Lines", and maybe a really nice briefcase, known as "Space Missions", but otherwise it would be dressed in trailer park chic. Turning the briefcase into a nice cane or monocle wouldn't make the rest of it any less ugly.
SWTOR was meant to be a MMO, not a single player game like ME3 with multiplayer. If it was like ME3 then single player space would have been what it was meant to be.They should have incorporated space into the story, and made the space and space combat as cut scenes like the rest of the game.What they have done has all backfired as now they have less SUBBED players than SWG had (although has way more FREE players though)
SWToR was an MMO. Just not a good one.
Exactly, and that is why the space game is a failure, and SWTOR is not what it was meant to be, as a MMO is Massively Multiplayer focussed, not single player focussed which you claim it was.
The space game wasn't a failure. It's one of the few original things in the game, it's something they are expanding and it's something they can charge money for. That's not a failure. There are many things about SWToR that need to be fixed, but space missions aren't one of them. Many people may not like them, but many people do like them. It's a preference, not a broken mechanic.
It is fine for a Nintendo 3DS game, but not a MMO. Is it a MMO or not? If SWTOR is a MMO, then the space game is a failure, if it is not a MMO then it is not a failure, although the way they have designed it is so lacking and cheap, as the missions are identical for BOTH the Imperial and the Reipublic, with the exact SAME ship flying and attack patterns, and then later you just get the exact same missions again but harder = PATHETIC
What they should have done was made the space part into cut senes, and when you travelled from planet to planet for the first time after a missions sends you there, there was a cut scene of a battle, maybe go into your ship and and speak on comms for some more cut scene dialgue, and your companions rush off to man the guns or whatever, and your group mates could watch / particpate like the rest of the game getting social points, then it would have fitted SWTOR perfectly, either that or do space like SWG / EVE /STO, but not this crap.
That doesn't even make sense. Having single player content in an MMO doesn't make the single player content a failure, it just makes it single player content. It's still down to a preference. If the space missions were a failure, nobody would have played them. Nobody would have bothered spending the time to build their ships up to the point that they could do the heroic level 50 space missions. People did the space missions until they could do the heroic space mission(s?). They succeeded at what they were intended to do, provide people playing the game with something to do.
The kind of changes you're talking about would make sense if they fixed pretty much the entire rest of the game. No matter what they add to the game, you still have to go through the character story line to level (this part is ok), and you still have to go through all of the mediocre world quests to level (this part is not ok) and you still have to use the recycled combat mechanics and skill trees to play your character (this is probably the worst part). All of that would still be there. Changing the "space game" wouldn't take any of that stuff away and wouldn't make it any less cr@ppy.
A MMO should not have single player content, not in the manner of this. A Star Wars MMO should have MMO space and ground aspects, and not single player. Red Dead Redemption on the consoles is more of a MMO than this is, and that is single player with multiplayer funcitionality. There are many single player games out there with multiplayer funcionality, and are not MMOs. What other MMO has single player stuff in it? None
The only reason I played the Space Missions was to get a boost of XP to the characters, not because they were great or fun. If they did not do that, then I would not have touched the missions after done each one with a Barge pole.
Changing the space game to be like STO/SWG/EVE would make the game frickin awesome. Changing the space game to be like cut scenes instead could have brought some awesome cinematics, as playing the space game was not exciting at all, it was heroic as the game had most of the control. Not doing the space game at all, they could have improved other areas of the game, maybe even made each class have their own side quests.
Originally posted by Gravarg The thing that failed about Space Combat wasn't Space Combat. It was people's perception of what it was going to be like. I personally like it. I liked it more than actually questing. It took me back to the good ol' days of Starfox, except I didn't have a froggy ribbiting in my ear all the time haha. I think most people thought it was going to be open combat, and you could shoot other players like eve. It would be great to someday have a space MMO with a vast open universe to jet around in, and took you hours to go across the galaxy, but I doubt that will ever happen.
Even accepting the space game for what it is, and accepting it not be like EVE, it is still extrempley lazy and poorly done. They could have given different missions to the Republic and Imperial, instead of copying and pasting them EXACTLY, with the exact same flight and attack patterns. Later instead of repeating the same missions but harder, they could have come up with new missions.
Starfox is still way better than this. Each mission was different, and you had more control
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Exactly. I remember when Duke Nuke'm first came out, FPS were fresh and new. Doom followed and then the genre spread into all sorts of different directions (even taking elements from RPGs). No one ever stopped and said, "HEY, you can't do that in a FPS!" The only requirement was the first person perspective.
MMO's main requirement should be: an online multiplayer game with a lot of players in a persistent world (which can be loosely translated). Yet a majority of players are still hanging onto the WoW model and the developers keep making games with these standards. What they don't understand is that MMO players are just like everyone else, nothing has changed in the gaming industry. They should focus on making a fun and entertaining game instead of trying to mimic popularity.
You can't recreate trends, you must stumble upon them.
By that logic, Bioware sticking to their storytelling strengths, they shouldn't really have thrown their hat into the MMO ring to begin with; space or no space.
ALthough I agree, the alpha engine was not ready to do what they thought it would do. That primary decision, coupled with Bioware's inexperience in MMO design (conscripting what was left of Mythic's talent following the Warhammer exodus wasn't much of a shot in hte arm) lead to many design descions which caused the development process to initially stagnate and cause delays, to a later accelerated pace of pared down design goals.
So I am agreeing with you. On all your points, including OPVP and that they don't currently (and most likely never will) have the in-house talent to add a Jump to Light Speed like expansion.
Those facts coupled with the financial realities of the EA run outfit, which has already had two rounds of lay-offs, make it seem unlikely despite an increase in revenue from the Cartel Shop, that they will hire outside talent to develop a Jump to Light Speed expansion to the game.
*Caveat - If there is one thing EA is good at is aquisitions. The only way that the game could surprise everyone and have a significant space element (in my opinion) is to outright buy a failed franchise such as the space MMO "Black Prophecy" and Frankenstein the different engine run game onto the SWTOR game.
Now I await someone to post that I'm a troll. (A certain someone who doesn't understand what that term means.)
SWToR was meant to be exactly what it was. The rest of the game allowed for a single player focus, so there's no reason why they wouldn't do the same with the space game. It was a mini-game that fit the rest of the game. Of all the things they could put a ton of time and resources into, space missions isn't one of the things that's going to get them any mileage because the entire rest of the game would still be there. Ugly and just staring at you with one bloodshot, baleful eye. It would have an awesome hat, known as "Character Story Lines", and maybe a really nice briefcase, known as "Space Missions", but otherwise it would be dressed in trailer park chic. Turning the briefcase into a nice cane or monocle wouldn't make the rest of it any less ugly.
SWTOR was meant to be a MMO, not a single player game like ME3 with multiplayer. If it was like ME3 then single player space would have been what it was meant to be. They should have incorporated space into the story, and made the space and space combat as cut scenes like the rest of the game. What they have done has all backfired as now they have less SUBBED players than SWG had (although has way more FREE players though)
SWToR was an MMO. Just not a good one.
Exactly, and that is why the space game is a failure, and SWTOR is not what it was meant to be, as a MMO is Massively Multiplayer focussed, not single player focussed which you claim it was.
The space game wasn't a failure. It's one of the few original things in the game, it's something they are expanding and it's something they can charge money for. That's not a failure.
There are many things about SWToR that need to be fixed, but space missions aren't one of them. Many people may not like them, but many people do like them. It's a preference, not a broken mechanic.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That would've been a truely awesome game.
As far as the factions, I agree that smugglers and bounty hunters should be in a 3rd neutral faction (such as the Hutts). Each of them should have the option (late in a story arc) to join either the republic, empire or stay neutral. In addition, the republic and empire players should have an option to betray their faction and join the opposite or become neutral.
That would've been a lot of work but if you look at it from the planning stages, it wouldn't be any more work than what they did. That's the premise of a designer to fit the concept into a plausible project.
It is fine for a Nintendo 3DS game, but not a MMO. Is it a MMO or not? If SWTOR is a MMO, then the space game is a failure, if it is not a MMO then it is not a failure, although the way they have designed it is so lacking and cheap, as the missions are identical for BOTH the Imperial and the Reipublic, with the exact SAME ship flying and attack patterns, and then later you just get the exact same missions again but harder = PATHETIC
What they should have done was made the space part into cut senes, and when you travelled from planet to planet for the first time after a missions sends you there, there was a cut scene of a battle, maybe go into your ship and and speak on comms for some more cut scene dialgue, and your companions rush off to man the guns or whatever, and your group mates could watch / particpate like the rest of the game getting social points, then it would have fitted SWTOR perfectly, either that or do space like SWG / EVE /STO, but not this crap.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
SWToR was meant to be exactly what it was. The rest of the game allowed for a single player focus, so there's no reason why they wouldn't do the same with the space game. It was a mini-game that fit the rest of the game. Of all the things they could put a ton of time and resources into, space missions isn't one of the things that's going to get them any mileage because the entire rest of the game would still be there. Ugly and just staring at you with one bloodshot, baleful eye. It would have an awesome hat, known as "Character Story Lines", and maybe a really nice briefcase, known as "Space Missions", but otherwise it would be dressed in trailer park chic. Turning the briefcase into a nice cane or monocle wouldn't make the rest of it any less ugly.
SWTOR was meant to be a MMO, not a single player game like ME3 with multiplayer. If it was like ME3 then single player space would have been what it was meant to be. They should have incorporated space into the story, and made the space and space combat as cut scenes like the rest of the game. What they have done has all backfired as now they have less SUBBED players than SWG had (although has way more FREE players though)
SWToR was an MMO. Just not a good one.
Exactly, and that is why the space game is a failure, and SWTOR is not what it was meant to be, as a MMO is Massively Multiplayer focussed, not single player focussed which you claim it was.
The space game wasn't a failure. It's one of the few original things in the game, it's something they are expanding and it's something they can charge money for. That's not a failure.
There are many things about SWToR that need to be fixed, but space missions aren't one of them. Many people may not like them, but many people do like them. It's a preference, not a broken mechanic.
It is fine for a Nintendo 3DS game, but not a MMO. Is it a MMO or not? If SWTOR is a MMO, then the space game is a failure, if it is not a MMO then it is not a failure, although the way they have designed it is so lacking and cheap, as the missions are identical for BOTH the Imperial and the Reipublic, with the exact SAME ship flying and attack patterns, and then later you just get the exact same missions again but harder.
I have already listed many many reasons why swtor is a mmo and a good mmo. Because they have a minigame that is single player does in no way take away the rest of the game.No, it's a failure. The minigame has been described as limited even by those who like it. It may be a relative success within the context of the success that the game has achieved (such as it is), but on the whole the decision to put the on rails system in as the only space portion of the game was a bad one.
It would have worked had no other space or Star Wars MMO ever existed, but given meatier options from predecessor games, this just looks like a flaccid add-on. Feedback (from as far back as beta) indicates that players overall thought this was bad.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
+5 Win
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
One of the few things the game did right was space combat, its one of the VERY FEW things you can do in this game to get away from the story and hum-drum PvP instance grind and few end game instances.
The game lacks in things to do, to get away, to break the blandness that it is. It would have been different if the game had a bunch of other things to do, but it doesnt...the game needed something to pump some kind of action into it different enough that it didnt blend into the bad endgame. I wouldnt even want to imagine what SWTOR would be if the devs spent a massive amount of time building an open space combat system...what wouldnt have been done? The PvP? No raid content? No crafting which is bad enough as it is? The time it would have taken to make open space would have taken more than 1 if not all of those things out of the game.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I just find the space game too annoying and frustating. The game has too much control, as you go to shoot at some turrets, the game pulls in another direction and you miss.
If it had cut scenes instead it could have been more thrilling and exciting
The space game in Lego Star Wars is similar but you have more control, with the whole map to fly back and forth on, and can do cool 180 turns in the Millennium Falcon. In SWTOR you can not do 180 turns it is forward and only forward, and with no slow or fast option.
After a while you end up getting good at it with 2 or so minutes left, and just have to wait for it to finish, and ends up being boring. At least the story is different, as long as not repeating side quests.
Maybe if they did not do the space combat game at all then crafting and other areas would have been better, and you would not have needed to "get away" from the story etc
If you want something else to take a break from the story, then there are many other better games to do that, and either way, even you play the SWTOR space game, you do nothing to help SWTOR and other players as a MMO.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
When content sees total usage of 0,5% yes you can call it a failure. Sevenstar can provide graphs.
SWToR was meant to be exactly what it was. The rest of the game allowed for a single player focus, so there's no reason why they wouldn't do the same with the space game. It was a mini-game that fit the rest of the game. Of all the things they could put a ton of time and resources into, space missions isn't one of the things that's going to get them any mileage because the entire rest of the game would still be there. Ugly and just staring at you with one bloodshot, baleful eye. It would have an awesome hat, known as "Character Story Lines", and maybe a really nice briefcase, known as "Space Missions", but otherwise it would be dressed in trailer park chic. Turning the briefcase into a nice cane or monocle wouldn't make the rest of it any less ugly.
SWTOR was meant to be a MMO, not a single player game like ME3 with multiplayer. If it was like ME3 then single player space would have been what it was meant to be. They should have incorporated space into the story, and made the space and space combat as cut scenes like the rest of the game. What they have done has all backfired as now they have less SUBBED players than SWG had (although has way more FREE players though)
SWToR was an MMO. Just not a good one.
Exactly, and that is why the space game is a failure, and SWTOR is not what it was meant to be, as a MMO is Massively Multiplayer focussed, not single player focussed which you claim it was.
The space game wasn't a failure. It's one of the few original things in the game, it's something they are expanding and it's something they can charge money for. That's not a failure. There are many things about SWToR that need to be fixed, but space missions aren't one of them. Many people may not like them, but many people do like them. It's a preference, not a broken mechanic.
It is fine for a Nintendo 3DS game, but not a MMO. Is it a MMO or not? If SWTOR is a MMO, then the space game is a failure, if it is not a MMO then it is not a failure, although the way they have designed it is so lacking and cheap, as the missions are identical for BOTH the Imperial and the Reipublic, with the exact SAME ship flying and attack patterns, and then later you just get the exact same missions again but harder = PATHETIC
What they should have done was made the space part into cut senes, and when you travelled from planet to planet for the first time after a missions sends you there, there was a cut scene of a battle, maybe go into your ship and and speak on comms for some more cut scene dialgue, and your companions rush off to man the guns or whatever, and your group mates could watch / particpate like the rest of the game getting social points, then it would have fitted SWTOR perfectly, either that or do space like SWG / EVE /STO, but not this crap.
That doesn't even make sense. Having single player content in an MMO doesn't make the single player content a failure, it just makes it single player content. It's still down to a preference. If the space missions were a failure, nobody would have played them. Nobody would have bothered spending the time to build their ships up to the point that they could do the heroic level 50 space missions. People did the space missions until they could do the heroic space mission(s?). They succeeded at what they were intended to do, provide people playing the game with something to do.
The kind of changes you're talking about would make sense if they fixed pretty much the entire rest of the game. No matter what they add to the game, you still have to go through the character story line to level (this part is ok), and you still have to go through all of the mediocre world quests to level (this part is not ok) and you still have to use the recycled combat mechanics and skill trees to play your character (this is probably the worst part). All of that would still be there. Changing the "space game" wouldn't take any of that stuff away and wouldn't make it any less cr@ppy.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Who or what is Sevenstar? Is this another one of those things where someone does manually polling of the number of players on a server?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
And how many people use "enter cantina name here"?
If we look, we will find a very long list of things in the game that is not being used much. Guess thats why they lost such a large portion of players and went F2P...which was my point...if they had spent the kind of time needed to make a full space combat game, how much more would the game be missing countering the effect of having full space making it hurt the game more than helping since it is already lacking in so many other things.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Ehm, EA released content usage numbers....well, percentages because you like to nitpick.
And theres nothing wrong with "manual polling" its accepted method for...you know...counting stuff. I did some myself back in student days when i was included in some study.
Cantina is not playable content.
And you are right, until they could provide proprt space experience they should not have released anything.
it's awful and useless. I'd much prefer having 10 year old granddaddy SWG JTL back
Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw
Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
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The Return of ELITE !
OOH you almost got it.
Cantina's were playable content in SWG just because they made it so you could get a buff in it by watching people dance. Amazing huh?
THATS THE POINT. The game is missing so many things that if they had spent a lot of time making open space the game would be MISSING EVEN MORE of the little content it DOES have now!
So, by making space the way they did, they did it the RIGHT WAY because it ADDS to the game by providing something that didnt take away from the rest of the game!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
And the crafting,class design, pvp, space combat, orange gear/modding, companions...etc,etc
Yes apart from that it's exactly the same game.
If you don't like something, that's fine. Lazy generalisations are just open to be pointed out though.
This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!
A MMO should not have single player content, not in the manner of this. A Star Wars MMO should have MMO space and ground aspects, and not single player. Red Dead Redemption on the consoles is more of a MMO than this is, and that is single player with multiplayer funcitionality. There are many single player games out there with multiplayer funcionality, and are not MMOs. What other MMO has single player stuff in it? None
The only reason I played the Space Missions was to get a boost of XP to the characters, not because they were great or fun. If they did not do that, then I would not have touched the missions after done each one with a Barge pole.
Changing the space game to be like STO/SWG/EVE would make the game frickin awesome. Changing the space game to be like cut scenes instead could have brought some awesome cinematics, as playing the space game was not exciting at all, it was heroic as the game had most of the control. Not doing the space game at all, they could have improved other areas of the game, maybe even made each class have their own side quests.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
Even accepting the space game for what it is, and accepting it not be like EVE, it is still extrempley lazy and poorly done. They could have given different missions to the Republic and Imperial, instead of copying and pasting them EXACTLY, with the exact same flight and attack patterns. Later instead of repeating the same missions but harder, they could have come up with new missions.
Starfox is still way better than this. Each mission was different, and you had more control
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
(Heheh, have you watched ''The Dictator'' ?)
-Sir, do you want the Aladeen ship or the Aladeen ship?
-mmm....mmm..... ...hmm.. the Aladeen ship?
“People can have the Model T in any color – so long as it’s black.” - Henry Ford