From Emain Macha to Agramon island - Don't forget what made DAoC shine

Canan

First, let me say that Dark Age of Camelot was a great game that I played for almost a decade. I met a lot of interesting people and had many adrenaline filled battles. So, thank you Mark and Mythic for creating a world that kept me captivated for quite a long while.

To save this post from the dreaded "tl;dr" label I'm going to simply list the things that I believe made Dark Age of Camelot a challenging and strategic player vs. player game filled with depth. I am really hoping that Camelot Unchained is a great success and incorporates many of the these things, which in my opinion, separated DAoC from the various other dull and heartless games out there.

CROWD CONTROL - This was such an important part of the game and in my opinion a necessity to CU. There are so many outspoken people out there that are begging for CU's crowd control to be "less severe" than that of DAoC's. I hope you stick to your remark that "this game will not be for everyone" and stay true to the heart of what made DAoC's combat so fantastically strategic and innovating.

SPEED CLASSES AND/OR SPEED CHANTS/SONGS - Speed classes made it possible for groups to roam about the game without the fear of ALWAYS getting rolled by a large amount of other players. Did it completely prevent it? No. But that is why these classes are an integral part of the RvR formula. It gave small groups of players at least a hope of escaping the all mighty zerg. There was always something about a group of players sticking to their leader which gave off the vibe of comradery also. But, maybe that's just the geek in me.

BUFF AND DEBUFF SYSTEM - I have played many (and I mean many) MMORPGS and not a single one can compare to the organization and truly amazing quality of the DAoC buff system. There was no mistaking when you lost your strength/con buff or when your dexterity was sheered - it easily recognizable not only on your screen but also in your character's performance. This made for a satisfying and rewarding experience for allies and enemies alike.

INTERRUPTS - Yet another thing that added to the depth of the combat system. I hope to see something like this in CU if not the same exact system.

STANDING STILL WHILST CASTING - The decision on when to incinerate someone or flee defines a good caster whether they are a healer or nuker. Please don't water this down like many of the many of the other modern MMOs out there.

ARMOR/CLOTHING DYE - I am so glad to hear that this is in the game as it really made guilds feel unique to be all decked out in the same colors.

DARKNESS FALLS - This was one of the most interesting things of Dark Age of Camelot and I was a bit shocked when you said there would be absolutely no PvP in CU. Any DAoC player can attest to DF being a really fun place and I hope you rethink adding this type of "control/pvp" dungeon. I am not a person who enjoys much PvE but I will say that I honestly think including no PvE is a mistake. However, I am open to you all proving me wrong.

REALM RANKS - Okay, so you say you don't want to include realm abilities (I will just keep quiet about that) but please keep it to where you only see the realm ranks of your enemies over their head (and don't worry folks who have not played DAoC before - when you click on an enemy it does in fact tell you their name). There was nothing like running into a group of players and knowing you're in for a good fight when you see their realm ranks.

CAMELOT HERALD - Speaks for itself.

I really wish you guys much luck with creating this new game and I am really excited to hear what you are going to do regarding these game dynamics.

boxsnd

Am I the only one who didn't like agramon? It was strictly 8v8. It felt like WoW arenas and got boring really quickly. Old frontiers Emain was much more exciting since you would encounter zergs, 8v8, solo stealthers and stealthzergs at amg/mmg, soloers and small groups near the portal keeps and on the way to the MGs, also it had keeps and there was always some action at crauchon or crimthainn. It's not even funny how superior old frontiers were.

 

Sorry for going off topic but I blame your title

Lore84

I do agree, I love all the above points. I think we need to remember though that he has said this isnt DAOC2....

That said, I would also love to see these game mechanics return. I do hope they don't shy away from the CC, and that we will see a DAOC-esque title system.

I loved the days of roaming emain and hope to see similar times in CU

Leucent

Originally posted by boxsnd

Am I the only one who didn't like agramon? It was strictly 8v8. It felt like WoW arenas and got boring really quickly. Old frontiers Emain was much more exciting since you would encounter zergs, 8v8, solo stealthers and stealthzergs at amg/mmg, soloers and small groups near the portal keeps and on the way to the MGs, also it had keeps and there was always some action at crauchon or crimthainn. It's not even funny how superior old frontiers were.

 

Sorry for going off topic but I blame your title

OF was the best set up DAOC had IMO. I actually don t like what towers added to the game. OF keeps were such amazing fights without the towers, flinging rocks etc. Argamon was IMOP a terrible idea. I loved the n"neck check" days, and the amazing keep/ Relic raid fights back in the say way more.

Canan

Originally posted by boxsnd

Am I the only one who didn't like agramon? It was strictly 8v8. It felt like WoW arenas and got boring really quickly. Old frontiers Emain was much more exciting since you would encounter zergs, 8v8, solo stealthers and stealthzergs at amg/mmg, soloers and small groups near the portal keeps and on the way to the MGs, also it had keeps and there was always some action at crauchon or crimthainn. It's not even funny how superior old frontiers were.

 

Sorry for going off topic but I blame your title

I was trying to convey that I have played DAoC from the very beginning till present day. Something tells me I should have simply stated that instead.

Hokibukisa

Originally posted by boxsnd

Am I the only one who didn't like agramon? It was strictly 8v8. It felt like WoW arenas and got boring really quickly. Old frontiers Emain was much more exciting since you would encounter zergs, 8v8, solo stealthers and stealthzergs at amg/mmg, soloers and small groups near the portal keeps and on the way to the MGs, also it had keeps and there was always some action at crauchon or crimthainn. It's not even funny how superior old frontiers were.

 

Sorry for going off topic but I blame your title

I had a completely different experience with it, and no I did not dislike it.

boxsnd

Originally posted by Hokibukisa

Originally posted by boxsnd

Am I the only one who didn't like agramon? It was strictly 8v8. It felt like WoW arenas and got boring really quickly. Old frontiers Emain was much more exciting since you would encounter zergs, 8v8, solo stealthers and stealthzergs at amg/mmg, soloers and small groups near the portal keeps and on the way to the MGs, also it had keeps and there was always some action at crauchon or crimthainn. It's not even funny how superior old frontiers were.

 

Sorry for going off topic but I blame your title

I had a completely different experience with it, and no I did not dislike it.

What else besides 8v8 did you do then?

Hokibukisa

Everything including 3way fights. Would have been even better if they got rid of the fuckin boats.

aylwynn

Originally posted by boxsnd

Originally posted by Hokibukisa

Originally posted by boxsnd

Am I the only one who didn't like agramon? It was strictly 8v8. It felt like WoW arenas and got boring really quickly. Old frontiers Emain was much more exciting since you would encounter zergs, 8v8, solo stealthers and stealthzergs at amg/mmg, soloers and small groups near the portal keeps and on the way to the MGs, also it had keeps and there was always some action at crauchon or crimthainn. It's not even funny how superior old frontiers were.

 

Sorry for going off topic but I blame your title

I had a completely different experience with it, and no I did not dislike it.

What else besides 8v8 did you do then?

 

Actually it depends on the amount of players. In fact Agramon is much smaller than Old Frontiers while having porters to the front of Agramon. Sure it sounds more arena-like. In Old Frontiers you were more likely to avoid zergs than in Agramon. Thats why DAoC was much better with Old Frontiers in my opinion: Giving all playtypes (zerging, soloing [especially at Emain's AMG ] and 8vs8) a chance.

If you had a bad day while roaming through Emain ... Well, then you could switch the zone because it was just big enough or stick up the public zerg.

 

I agree to all of your listed points!

meddyck

Originally posted by Canan

CROWD CONTROL - This was such an important part of the game and in my opinion a necessity to CU. There are so many outspoken people out there that are begging for CU's crowd control to be "less severe" than that of DAoC's. I hope you stick to your remark that "this game will not be for everyone" and stay true to the heart of what made DAoC's combat so fantastically strategic and innovating. There's a lot of room between how DAOC did CC (especially at its release) and how modern games like GW 2 have basically worthless CC. I'd like see to see a max of maybe 20 seconds on CC with a short (5 seconds?) global CC immunity timer and a longer immunity timer for specific types of CC (5 minutes mezz immunity?).

SPEED CLASSES AND/OR SPEED CHANTS/SONGS - Speed classes made it possible for groups to roam about the game without the fear of ALWAYS getting rolled by a large amount of other players. Did it completely prevent it? No. But that is why these classes are an integral part of the RvR formula. It gave small groups of players at least a hope of escaping the all mighty zerg. There was always something about a group of players sticking to their leader which gave off the vibe of comradery also. But, maybe that's just the geek in me. Definitely I would like to see group speed chants.

BUFF AND DEBUFF SYSTEM - I have played many (and I mean many) MMORPGS and not a single one can compare to the organization and truly amazing quality of the DAoC buff system. There was no mistaking when you lost your strength/con buff or when your dexterity was sheered - it easily recognizable not only on your screen but also in your character's performance. This made for a satisfying and rewarding experience for allies and enemies alike. Here I have to disagree with you for several reasons. First is buff bots. While it's tempting to bump up the game's revenue by allowing buff bots, it just isn't a good or fair system and should be avoided. Secondly since I played cleric and druid a ton, I can tell you that I absolutely hated shearing enemies and rebuffing sheared allies. Give healers debuff spells and even short duration active cast stat boosts sure but don't have permanent concentration buffs and shears.

INTERRUPTS - Yet another thing that added to the depth of the combat system. I hope to see something like this in CU if not the same exact system. I didn't love the interrupt system to be honest. It never made sense that CC you were immune to interrupted to you. Some kind of hybrid where non-damage abilities cast on you cause your casting times to increase while only damage fully interrupts might work.

STANDING STILL WHILST CASTING - The decision on when to incinerate someone or flee defines a good caster whether they are a healer or nuker. Please don't water this down like many of the many of the other modern MMOs out there. Yeah I don't like casters in many recent MMOs where every spell is either instant cast or able to be cast on the move. Give me powerful spells but balance them by requiring I stand still to cast them.

ARMOR/CLOTHING DYE - I am so glad to hear that this is in the game as it really made guilds feel unique to be all decked out in the same colors. Agreed. Also I hope they will have an emblem system that will be displayed on cloaks and shields. I loved the way that worked in DAOC's early years, but it went away after TOA after everybody started wearing Shades of Mist or Cloudsong.

DARKNESS FALLS - This was one of the most interesting things of Dark Age of Camelot and I was a bit shocked when you said there would be absolutely no PvP in CU. Any DAoC player can attest to DF being a really fun place and I hope you rethink adding this type of "control/pvp" dungeon. I am not a person who enjoys much PvE but I will say that I honestly think including no PvE is a mistake. However, I am open to you all proving me wrong. I am very happy with the decision to have no standard PvE (kill a mob, get a drop and xp). I can easily imagine ways they can still have something like DF. It just requires a little creativity to come up with new motivations for players to explore such an area without the usual PvE rewards.

REALM RANKS - Okay, so you say you don't want to include realm abilities (I will just keep quiet about that) but please keep it to where you only see the realm ranks of your enemies over their head (and don't worry folks who have not played DAoC before - when you click on an enemy it does in fact tell you their name). There was nothing like running into a group of players and knowing you're in for a good fight when you see their realm ranks. It is (mostly) clear that there will be a progression system like realm abilities. I also liked the way DAOC did it with "Race Realm Rank" displayed over an enemy's head but his actual name displayed in your combat log. Hopefully something similar will be in CU.

CAMELOT HERALD - Speaks for itself. There should also be in game leaderboards.

 

shaodrin

Originally posted by boxsnd

Am I the only one who didn't like agramon? It was strictly 8v8. It felt like WoW arenas and got boring really quickly. Old frontiers Emain was much more exciting since you would encounter zergs, 8v8, solo stealthers and stealthzergs at amg/mmg, soloers and small groups near the portal keeps and on the way to the MGs, also it had keeps and there was always some action at crauchon or crimthainn. It's not even funny how superior old frontiers were.

 

Sorry for going off topic but I blame your title

yeah it was strictly 8vs8 but unlike wow arenas it still had this surprise effect since u never know who would inc the next .... and it was the only way to have a decent 8vs8 without add and shit like that sao for 8vs8 folks it was like a heaven and the reason why any skilled 8man ran there most of the time

 

btw saying old emain (old frontiers) is better than nf makes me think you never played on uthgard and only revue moments like 7(?) years ago wich means only the good but not the many bad moments ... old keeps were so bad designed with los breaks bad gateways and all the bugs there and old emain a exciting zone? maybe if u ran zerg only but since all the action was in emain only most of the time wich means a tube with nearly no poscibilty to escape the zerg no kiting space and fcking long ways for hibs rvr back in the days wasnt realy good for non zergers ... actually the reason why odins got the 8vs8 zone even though that snow landscape was eye cancer style

realy play like 1 week of uthgard rvr ... and nf will get some kind of the holy gral of rvr and thats only because of how bad of was and even as a zerger i think it will somewhen get boring running the same 100m over and over again with the same 2 keeps in range without runing out of the whole action

Canan

Mark,

Is there a time frame when we will hear specific details on the topics listed in this thread? I would really like to know before the Kickstarter begins what kind of systems you are using and if they will indeed be somewhat challenging like those of the orginal Dark Age of Camelot. I know some of these questions are hard to answer this far in advance but letting us in on your thought process and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

 

 

boxsnd

Originally posted by shaodrin

Originally posted by boxsnd

Am I the only one who didn't like agramon? It was strictly 8v8. It felt like WoW arenas and got boring really quickly. Old frontiers Emain was much more exciting since you would encounter zergs, 8v8, solo stealthers and stealthzergs at amg/mmg, soloers and small groups near the portal keeps and on the way to the MGs, also it had keeps and there was always some action at crauchon or crimthainn. It's not even funny how superior old frontiers were.

 

Sorry for going off topic but I blame your title

yeah it was strictly 8vs8 but unlike wow arenas it still had this surprise effect since u never know who would inc the next .... and it was the only way to have a decent 8vs8 without add and shit like that sao for 8vs8 folks it was like a heaven and the reason why any skilled 8man ran there most of the time

 

btw saying old emain (old frontiers) is better than nf makes me think you never played on uthgard and only revue moments like 7(?) years ago wich means only the good but not the many bad moments ... old keeps were so bad designed with los breaks bad gateways and all the bugs there and old emain a exciting zone? maybe if u ran zerg only but since all the action was in emain only most of the time wich means a tube with nearly no poscibilty to escape the zerg no kiting space and fcking long ways for hibs rvr back in the days wasnt realy good for non zergers ... actually the reason why odins got the 8vs8 zone even though that snow landscape was eye cancer style

realy play like 1 week of uthgard rvr ... and nf will get some kind of the holy gral of rvr and thats only because of how bad of was and even as a zerger i think it will somewhen get boring running the same 100m over and over again with the same 2 keeps in range without runing out of the whole action

Actually I have 7-8 50s on uthgard. And yes Emain sucks there but it's not the map's or OF's fault, there are just way too few people RvRing on that server. You end up running around for 30 minutes for a fight only to find that uber rr10+ group that play together for 5 years(and if you manage to find a group around your level and kill it they usually never come back. It is frustrating.

shaodrin

i realy dont understand how you can like of with 50s on uthgard ... emain is either like you discribed it within a 8man running arround not finding any inc ... or zerging ... and having more ppl on the server will only increase the zerging decrease the roaming space for everyone else etc ... a tube as a rvr maps sucks old frontiers emain and war showed that since they dont allow any playstyle but zerg on the longterm

yes new frontiers had some fails but it allowed so many different play stiles since you had more possibiltiys to choose your fights and the action didnt took place on 1/10 of the whole rvr map but on 2/3 (not actual sizes but you know what i mean)

General_Dru-Zod

Originally posted by Leucent

Originally posted by boxsnd

Am I the only one who didn't like agramon? It was strictly 8v8. It felt like WoW arenas and got boring really quickly. Old frontiers Emain was much more exciting since you would encounter zergs, 8v8, solo stealthers and stealthzergs at amg/mmg, soloers and small groups near the portal keeps and on the way to the MGs, also it had keeps and there was always some action at crauchon or crimthainn. It's not even funny how superior old frontiers were.

 

Sorry for going off topic but I blame your title

OF was the best set up DAOC had IMO. I actually don t like what towers added to the game. OF keeps were such amazing fights without the towers, flinging rocks etc. Argamon was IMOP a terrible idea. I loved the n"neck check" days, and the amazing keep/ Relic raid fights back in the say way more.

Ahh yes, that was infuriating.. being left behind... its all coming back to me

Vargur

Originally posted by Canan

First, let me say that Dark Age of Camelot was a great game that I played for almost a decade. I met a lot of interesting people and had many adrenaline filled battles. So, thank you Mark and Mythic for creating a world that kept me captivated for quite a long while.

To save this post from the dreaded "tl;dr" label I'm going to simply list the things that I believe made Dark Age of Camelot a challenging and strategic player vs. player game filled with depth. I am really hoping that Camelot Unchained is a great success and incorporates many of the these things, which in my opinion, separated DAoC from the various other dull and heartless games out there.

CROWD CONTROL - This was such an important part of the game and in my opinion a necessity to CU. There are so many outspoken people out there that are begging for CU's crowd control to be "less severe" than that of DAoC's. I hope you stick to your remark that "this game will not be for everyone" and stay true to the heart of what made DAoC's combat so fantastically strategic and innovating.

SPEED CLASSES AND/OR SPEED CHANTS/SONGS - Speed classes made it possible for groups to roam about the game without the fear of ALWAYS getting rolled by a large amount of other players. Did it completely prevent it? No. But that is why these classes are an integral part of the RvR formula. It gave small groups of players at least a hope of escaping the all mighty zerg. There was always something about a group of players sticking to their leader which gave off the vibe of comradery also. But, maybe that's just the geek in me.

BUFF AND DEBUFF SYSTEM - I have played many (and I mean many) MMORPGS and not a single one can compare to the organization and truly amazing quality of the DAoC buff system. There was no mistaking when you lost your strength/con buff or when your dexterity was sheered - it easily recognizable not only on your screen but also in your character's performance. This made for a satisfying and rewarding experience for allies and enemies alike.

INTERRUPTS - Yet another thing that added to the depth of the combat system. I hope to see something like this in CU if not the same exact system.

STANDING STILL WHILST CASTING - The decision on when to incinerate someone or flee defines a good caster whether they are a healer or nuker. Please don't water this down like many of the many of the other modern MMOs out there.

ARMOR/CLOTHING DYE - I am so glad to hear that this is in the game as it really made guilds feel unique to be all decked out in the same colors.

DARKNESS FALLS - This was one of the most interesting things of Dark Age of Camelot and I was a bit shocked when you said there would be absolutely no PvP in CU. Any DAoC player can attest to DF being a really fun place and I hope you rethink adding this type of "control/pvp" dungeon. I am not a person who enjoys much PvE but I will say that I honestly think including no PvE is a mistake. However, I am open to you all proving me wrong.

REALM RANKS - Okay, so you say you don't want to include realm abilities (I will just keep quiet about that) but please keep it to where you only see the realm ranks of your enemies over their head (and don't worry folks who have not played DAoC before - when you click on an enemy it does in fact tell you their name). There was nothing like running into a group of players and knowing you're in for a good fight when you see their realm ranks.

CAMELOT HERALD - Speaks for itself.

I really wish you guys much luck with creating this new game and I am really excited to hear what you are going to do regarding these game dynamics.

Two things I disagree with. CC can easily be toned down. Keep it in the game, but standing mezzed for 1+ min waiting for assist train to pick your number was not fun. I agree on keeping CC in game, but reduce timers to 15-20 seconds. Buffs/debuffs became a serious issue, and one that caused many people to quit. I hope CSE is able to design a better system. Other than that, I agree.