Clearly mmos of late have not lived up to expectations because of things such as auction houses and mini maps.
Where the fuck do some of you come up with these things?
Auction house alone is not a game breaker. It is a piece in a very large puzzle which comes together to create a very on rails and linear game experience.
Lets use the example of a recently released sequel to a successful MMO. The game is essentially divided into zones, and in each zone, you can do the following things:
- Heart quests
- Skill points
- Find waypoints
- Points of interest
- Group Events
- Vistas
- Collect crafting materials
- Jumping puzzles
Every next zone follows the exact same layout as the previous one. Do you see how a game can become shallow and repetitive if you remove all the 'inconveniences' or 'chores'? Do they honestly expect me to do the same exact thing over and over again in 25 different zones? It became boring when I reached the third zone.
The games don't make you do anything aside from your mob killing loop. Even all armor and weapons can be conveniently acquired from lizards, mammoths, deers, bears. Oh the horror of actually having to stop what you are doing, and figuring out how and where to acquire better gear, instead of being handed gear left and right. Why would a lizard carry around a steel mace of shock, or a bear live in some forest with a leather helmet of archery?
You don't have to figure ANYTHING out on your own, the game is built up in a way that all the time you have a clear goal, and you know exactly step by step how to acheive it. If you go near a heart, it gives you a detailed description of what the NPC requires, without ever having to go even within 50 meters of that person. The overall shallow feel is caused by the sum of the little streamlinings, not the individual parts on their own.
Do you see how absurd this has become? You can acquire a quest without even speaking to the NPC.
Clearly mmos of late have not lived up to expectations because of things such as auction houses and mini maps.
Where the fuck do some of you come up with these things?
Auction house alone is not a game breaker. It is a piece in a very large puzzle which comes together to create a very on rails and linear game experience.
Lets use the example of a recently released sequel to a successful MMO. The game is essentially divided into zones, and in each zone, you can do the following things:
- Heart quests
- Skill points
- Find waypoints
- Points of interest
- Group Events
- Vistas
- Collect crafting materials
- Jumping puzzles
Every next zone follows the exact same layout as the previous one. Do you see how a game can become shallow and repetitive if you remove all the 'inconveniences' or 'chores'? Do they honestly expect me to do the same exact thing over and over again in 25 different zones? It became boring when I reached the third zone.
The games don't make you do anything aside from your mob killing loop. Even all armor and weapons can be conveniently acquired from lizards, mammoths, deers, bears. Oh the horror of actually having to stop what you are doing, and figuring out how and where to acquire better gear, instead of being handed gear left and right. Why would a lizard carry around a steel mace of shock, or a bear live in some forest with a leather helmet of archery?
You don't have to figure ANYTHING out on your own, the game is built up in a way that all the time you have a clear goal, and you know exactly step by step how to acheive it. If you go near a heart, it gives you a detailed description of what the NPC requires, without ever having to go even within 50 meters of that person. The overall shallow feel is caused by the sum of the little streamlinings, not the individual parts on their own.
Do you see how absurd this has become? You can acquire a quest without even speaking to the NPC.
I dont see that as a bad thing. I liked GW2 i stopped playing it because there was not enough content and i never got to any dungeon because i did not like visuals of a dungeon gear. I how that game was structured and i enjoyed filling zones up to 100% .... that is what themepark MMOs are about. You want sandbox, but that is not gonna happen in ESO they are going to start beta, it is too late to remake whole game. I dont even think there is any AAA sandbox with lots of players, because hardcore crowd is pretty small compared to people who like themepark games.
If the box says Pegi 12 or rated T for teen, you know what to expect...
Or simply people that have actual life and responsibles. Seems like OP thinks all things that make playing easier and less like work are automaticly bad things. I bet average player of todays MMOs has maybe 1/3 of time to spend on game than average gamer of early MMOs.
Who is the audience for casual dumbed down MMOs? Most of the AAA MMO developers seem to think that this is the biggest part of the consumers.
But it is, otherwise all the marketing research that publishers and game Dev studios do would result in them making different MMOs.
When you get $50-$100 million dollars of investment, you sure will do the best research to deliver the maximum profitable product for the largest player segment.
I'd love to see any research that shows differently.
Maybe folks don't realize that AAA game companies actually do extensive research about what will sell the most?
But what their research fails to do is figure out how to retain a large number of subs over the long haul. Most recent titles such as SWTOR, TSW and others really appear to miss the mark in their projections about how many subs they'll be retaining 6 months to a year out.
Blizzard seems to hold steady year after year, but most other titles (except maybe EVE) fail to grab people, they tend to consume MMO's as they do single player games. Burn through the available content, maybe create an alt or two for replayability, and then leave until the next content expansion comes out.
I'm starting to believe that the long term subscriber base today actually is about the same (relative) to what it was back in 2002, the big difference is the introduction of the more casual player who jumps in and out of them in short order.
Means the design of the game has to recover most of its cost in the first 3 months or less, so they can cut back and ride out the rest of the lifecycle at a much smaller scale.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Who is the audience for casual dumbed down MMOs? Most of the AAA MMO developers seem to think that this is the biggest part of the consumers.
But it is, otherwise all the marketing research that publishers and game Dev studios do would result in them making different MMOs.
When you get $50-$100 million dollars of investment, you sure will do the best research to deliver the maximum profitable product for the largest player segment.
I'd love to see any research that shows differently.
Maybe folks don't realize that AAA game companies actually do extensive research about what will sell the most?
Did the research conclude that the players want each zone to feel exactly like the one before it? Did it conclude that the players don't want to think, solve problems, but rather prefer to have everything laid out, predictable and clear from the beginning?
I think they might be assuming that casual player = dumb player. You can play a very complex game casually, and enjoy it. Why does everything have to be streamlined? Do casual MMO players want a game which basically insults their intelligence? I would assume they don't.
Since the name alone is raping the IP, game has nothing to do with the Elder Scrolls story, I would say it doesn't take a genius to see they are just on the money wagon here. With being forced into a faction in a game world that should be factionless means it isn't even keeping to what the game Elder Scrolls is famous for. It will do the 3mo fail like all the other themepark trash that has come out in 10yrs.
Who is the audience for casual dumbed down MMOs? Most of the AAA MMO developers seem to think that this is the biggest part of the consumers.
But it is, otherwise all the marketing research that publishers and game Dev studios do would result in them making different MMOs.
When you get $50-$100 million dollars of investment, you sure will do the best research to deliver the maximum profitable product for the largest player segment.
I'd love to see any research that shows differently.
Maybe folks don't realize that AAA game companies actually do extensive research about what will sell the most?
But what their research fails to do is figure out how to retain a large number of subs over the long haul. Most recent titles such as SWTOR, TSW and others really appear to miss the mark in their projections about how many subs they'll be retaining 6 months to a year out.
Blizzard seems to hold steady year after year, but most other titles (except maybe EVE) fail to grab people, they tend to consume MMO's as they do single player games. Burn through the available content, maybe create an alt or two for replayability, and then leave until the next content expansion comes out.
I'm starting to believe that the long term subscriber base today actually is about the same (relative) to what it was back in 2002, the big difference is the introduction of the more casual player who jumps in and out of them in short order.
Means the design of the game has to recover most of its cost in the first 3 months or less, so they can cut back and ride out the rest of the lifecycle at a much smaller scale.
I though everyone here already understood that developers dont care to keep the masses with them, just to bring as much as possible in the beggining and remain with a lower but possibly stable population in the later months.
another thing op, why don't you like TSW? it isn't casual and streamlined in any shape or form compaired to the usual mmorpgs. It doesn't guide you and hold your hand, their investigation missions are pretty intense if you wanna do them on your own without googling a guide, etc etc.
or age of wushu, pretty deep intense sandbox game with so many possibilities.
why don't these games appeal to you? I think you just don't know what you want, since such games are there, yet you refuse to play them.
another thing op, why don't you like TSW? it isn't casual and streamlined in any shape or form compaired to the usual mmorpgs. It doesn't guide you and hold your hand, their investigation missions are pretty intense if you wanna do them on your own without googling a guide, etc etc.
or age of wushu, pretty deep intense sandbox game with so many possibilities.
why don't these games appeal to you? I think you just don't know what you want, since such games are there, yet you refuse to play them.
Actually I have 3 full sets of 10.4 gear in TSW, with the occasional 10.5. I have done the raid 30 times. I have the 5 minute kill acheivement of the raid. And I have completed every single NM dungeon. Oh and I have collected and read every single piece of lore in the game.
Under the surface, TSW is not deep. The background story is deep, but the game mechanics themselves are not. They make an illusion that it is deep, by having engaging and unique quests. But if you strip away the quests, and look at your gameplay that is not related to completing a specific quest, there isn't really all that much.
Only the skill wheel stands out as a positive thing. Trying to come up with builds was actually fun.
I consider gameplay depth and lore depth to be completely different things.
The faction conflict is shallow. It only consists of 3 PvP minigames, which, needless to say, only serve as a gear treadmill and have no risk involved.
Every single point I listed in my first post, is present. Provided, some of them aren't directly present, but you can use certain easy methods to get around that.
All MMOs end up being the same in some way shape or form. You can't get around that. You have to keep in mind that 90% of the 'gamers' in the MMO community are WoW only 'gamers'. They started with WoW and only know WoW. So when they go to a new MMO they are highly dissapointed because they don't have any background as to different aspects of gameplay.
Back in 1999-2004 you were lucky if you had 100k players in an MMO...now they expect 10+ million. Well a good percentage of those millions haven't a clue as to what they are talking about or what they want in an MMO. They call themselves gamers but don't take the time to step outside of their box. They will be the first to tell you they can't stand WoW and want a game that is different.
WoW set the bar becasue the majority of people who play it don't play games. The best way to get out of this rut is play the game because you like it. Don't worry about what reviews say or what other people say just play the game. We all followed SWTOR so close and it was hyped so much and became a let down for a lot of people. It's just like when you go to the movies. Your are so excited about a new movie that when you watch it it's not very good because you overhyped it in your mind.
Don't fall into that trap with ESO and remember; you will never find a group of 100% like minded players in any of these MMO's.
Oh and to respond to the OP...sounds like you should stop playing MMO's. These aren't the droids you're looking for.
Clearly mmos of late have not lived up to expectations because of things such as auction houses and mini maps.
Where the fuck do some of you come up with these things?
Auction house alone is not a game breaker. It is a piece in a very large puzzle which comes together to create a very on rails and linear game experience.
Lets use the example of a recently released sequel to a successful MMO. The game is essentially divided into zones, and in each zone, you can do the following things:
- Heart quests
- Skill points
- Find waypoints
- Points of interest
- Group Events
- Vistas
- Collect crafting materials
- Jumping puzzles
Every next zone follows the exact same layout as the previous one. Do you see how a game can become shallow and repetitive if you remove all the 'inconveniences' or 'chores'? Do they honestly expect me to do the same exact thing over and over again in 25 different zones? It became boring when I reached the third zone.
The games don't make you do anything aside from your mob killing loop. Even all armor and weapons can be conveniently acquired from lizards, mammoths, deers, bears. Oh the horror of actually having to stop what you are doing, and figuring out how and where to acquire better gear, instead of being handed gear left and right. Why would a lizard carry around a steel mace of shock, or a bear live in some forest with a leather helmet of archery?
You don't have to figure ANYTHING out on your own, the game is built up in a way that all the time you have a clear goal, and you know exactly step by step how to acheive it. If you go near a heart, it gives you a detailed description of what the NPC requires, without ever having to go even within 50 meters of that person. The overall shallow feel is caused by the sum of the little streamlinings, not the individual parts on their own.
Do you see how absurd this has become? You can acquire a quest without even speaking to the NPC.
Who is the audience for casual dumbed down MMOs? Most of the AAA MMO developers seem to think that this is the biggest part of the consumers. And what happens when a game like that comes out? It is hyped up, lots of people buy it at launch, and then it is struggling within 6 months. One thing is playing a game casually, something completely different is building a game from the ground up for people that you consider casuals. I don't think even casual players like some of the design choices that are made.
What I consider casual/streamlined design:
- auction house
AH is not a bad idea, definitely better than sitting half day around one area and spamming trade channel.
- drop-in-drop-out pvp with no risk, no long term implications/goals. Respawning during a match.
If you refer to instanced PvP the way it is done in WoW right now then I agree, this sucks. Although in case of TESO any kind of instanced PvP would easily go wrong way really so hopefully they won't put it in.
- no chance to lose progress in a pve environment (aka lose gear). Why do you win items when you complete something, but don't lose anything if you fail? The balance is off here.
This has little to do with not bein casual friendly. Rather reminds me of some korean titles instead. Also remmeber that even WoW (not to mention older western THEMEPARK alike titles) wasn't really designed with casuals in mind.
- waypoints
Agreed here. Waypoints and other instant travel mechanisms (like portals) suck. The only exception may be recall but even that should have some decent cooldown (like 1h atleast)
- dividing the gameworld into zones, and other related gizmos, like completion percentage. Telling a player how much % of the game they have completed, is like telling a person in real life the year and date that they are going to die on.
Regarding zones. Every MMO out there has kind of zones (even if they are called differently). Regarding achievements. This is just a poor addition to give ppl more stuff to do in order to extend too short content (or too dull content). Things such as Tome of Knowledge (WAR) can be fun tho as such mechanics can be used i.e. to tell game world's story. It would be fun feature as long as it does not have stuff such as kill 200 daedras in order to get title or jump around Cyrodiil 10 times without getting bored with it. This is just not even fun.
- all content is available for everyone.
Technically in already mentioned two EvE and Darkfall situation is similar.
- too many tutorials. Most people have a brain, and using it can be fun sometimes.
To be fair tutorials are fine as long as they are not too intrusive (like can be disabled or they don't interrupt you other stuff). Part "room for discovery" should be left totally for more complex content. See i.e. idea behind crafting in games such as EvE or Mortal (not talking about realisation of this idea in this case).
- minimap/zone map, and related gizmos such as quest markers. Do devs think people are crippled and can't progress if you don't give them a map?
Here again from what I recall it was also the case of games before this trend
- nothing occurs in the game world that is out of the player's control. All the way through, the games make you feel like a superhero. Who has played Stalker, I mean something along the line of emissions.
For that reason I hope that they get RvR right. It's hard to expect unexpected from computer controlled mob but it's totally different story in case of enemy players.
The 3 big hopes for me this year are TESO, Repopulation, and DayZ. To be brutally honest, I absolutely expect TESO to take the casual approach. And this time around, I'll wait for people to post videos on youtube, before blindly buying into the hype (made that mistake with TSW and GW2). Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play oldschool runescape.
Well I have similar feelings. I really hope that theyr ecreate oldschool DAoC but then I feel that it won't be the case. Hopefully I am wrong.
Just for the record: Though' I haven't bothered to read through this entire thread, I have read about half of it. Enough to say:
OP: I feel with you. Contemporary MMOs are so bland, shallow and boring it is a shame. Dumbing down of the sheep. Everyone aiming at the golden-middle middle grounds. And every game being the same golden-middle ground. Sometimes in green. Sometimes in red. And some daring souls might even try blue. But the mind-numbing middle grounds are always aimed for.
*snore*
I lost interest in the genre. I think it will take a few years until someone comes up with something really interesting again. Not that the time wouldn't be ripe now. But - paradoxically - MMORPG game developpers seem to be one of the most conservative industries around these days.
challenge / harsh environment / cruel game settings = no fun / grind / frustration ?
I feel it is just different tastes. A game with a harsh-death penalty, for example, is per so no more "grindy" or anything, methinks, than any vanilla settings. Why is it also, that so many feel that harsh game settings are only attractive to folk that put 40 hours + game time in per week. I think it is by no means.
It is no more and no less than just different tastes and preferences. One gets frustrated by losing it all. Another gets the kick out of the threat of losing it all around the next corner... and persevering. To one, getting stripped of all stuff is frustrating. To another, it is just a "shit-happens", the cause for a good tale and nice RP. Perma-death to one is losing the beloved character forever. For another player perma-death is just that: The end of a virtual character. The start of a new one. And maybe cause for great tales and a bit of a dramatic mood and story?
I hate grinding, personally. But I love harsh death-settings and the rush of (real) adrenaline, even in virtual worlds. Some people do challenging, risky, tricky, difficult stuff for recreation. Play chess. Climb mountains. Solve mathematical and logic puzzles. What is so bizarre about the notion of a challenging, risky, tricky MMORPG I wonder?
Not all of us that have this preference are nerds or cats with too much time on our paws. It is just a matter of personal tastes. And I really doubt we are so few. There are just no MMORPGs for our tastes. Especially not if you combine the demand for "risky" mechanics with a game favouring, fostering and catered for "roleplay".
WoW and GW2 have cemented the casual in the MMORPG. Aside from indie developers, I really don't see the genre changing because every game type is moving towards consolification/mobilzation.
As you pointed out, nowadays you don't even have to click an NPC to get a quest. People embrace this.
challenge / harsh environment / cruel game settings = no fun / grind / frustration ?
I feel it is just different tastes. A game with a harsh-death penalty, for example, is per so no more "grindy" or anything, methinks, than any vanilla settings. Why is it also, that so many feel that harsh game settings are only attractive to folk that put 40 hours + game time in per week. I think it is by no means.
It is no more and no less than just different tastes and preferences. One gets frustrated by losing it all. Another gets the kick out of the threat of losing it all around the next corner... and persevering. To one, getting stripped of all stuff is frustrating. To another, it is just a "shit-happens", the cause for a good tale and nice RP. Perma-death to one is losing the beloved character forever. For another player perma-death is just that: The end of a virtual character. The start of a new one. And maybe cause for great tales and a bit of a dramatic mood and story?
I hate grinding, personally. But I love harsh death-settings and the rush of (real) adrenaline, even in virtual worlds. Some people do challenging, risky, tricky, difficult stuff for recreation. Play chess. Climb mountains. Solve mathematical and logic puzzles. What is so bizarre about the notion of a challenging, risky, tricky MMORPG I wonder?
Not all of us that have this preference are nerds or cats with too much time on our paws. It is just a matter of personal tastes. And I really doubt we are so few. There are just no MMORPGs for our tastes. Especially not if you combine the demand for "risky" mechanics with a game favouring, fostering and catered for "roleplay".
*Editted for a bazillion of typos.
Well said. The adrenaline rush is one of the main things that I feel is missing in recent titles. And this is also one of the main reasons that I consider runescape (2007 and earlier) to be one of the best MMOs ever. They did eventually dumb it down with gravestones and whatnot. I would imagine EVE can offer something similar, but I'm not really into the whole space theme.
Just earlier today in the oldschool servers of RS, some mage had died to a few city guards, and I, as a complete noob, picked up his 60k gold and a bunch of runes. It was unexpected, and that's what made it memorable and fun. This extra layer of possible interaction between players (even though he was dead) is what gives the game depth. Basically the game lets this player 'create content' for me, instead of some dev needing to make something like that. This wasn't some intricately developed game system, it was just another person dying, and it was far more memorable than some zone boss in GW2 will ever be. Now, which is more efficient from a development standpoint, a zone boss, or a simple gear drop system that is developed once, and used permanently throughout the lifespan of the game, and is available in every situation, and everywhere.
Both of them are a bunch of code, but the gear loss system is content that the players use permanently, whereas a zone boss is only used for 5 minutes during the entire playthrough of the character (waste of development time and doesn't add to the overall 'selling points' of the game).
Games like dayz don't have any quests or any set goals, they rely completely on players creating content for eachother, and I believe this is a huge missed opportunity in the modern MMOs. They try too hard to have everything made on the development level, and end up having insane budgets.
Nothing has even come close to the feeling of going into the wilderness in RS with insane amount of risk, knowing full well that if I die, I'll lose all of it. The adrenaline from doing something like that can keep you shaky, sleepless and anxious for hours and I love it.
I just haven't felt that way while playing any other MMO. Tried runes of magic, tried GW2, tried TSW, tried lineage 2, and a lot of the smaller MMOs like MU online, dragon raja and helbreath, sword of the new world. DayZ is the only recently released game that has got something like that to offer, but that isn't really a MMO in the traditional sense.
TESO has been in this Trap/ stuck on the one way street that WoW Created the minute they decided to start taking Idea's From DAOC and other similar games that restrict Player Freedom/Choices.
I am sorry Hardcore DAOC fans but Daoc was a Good game but by no means was it SUCH a GREAT GAME that so many idea's should be taken from it and rehashed.
Locked Factions is gonna be TESO's Nail to the Coffin. Why you maybe wondering? here are some Reasons.
1.Don't get me wrong It Works only in Some Games.But I will use WoW as a Example since the game has 2 factions with seperate races and its a successful game. tho You are not very Restricted in which zones/ areas you can enter based on your Factions however u can only quest in some of them based on your faction. Not to Mention WoW's Main Selling Point / Key feature that keeps players playing it IS NOT (Locked Faction Open World PvP let alone PvP for that matter. is a Minority in that game.)
2. Population Imbalances. this is a Major/Key Problem that Feeds off itself. if a Factions Worlds starts to feel empty or is very onesided in World Objectives it just creates more problems. TESO Dev's are not even addressing this problem in fact they are just helping dig the hole by Locking Races to not 2 Factions but 3 Factions. So it is more likely that one faction is gonna be extremely at a Disadvantage/underpopulated aka from the looks of it Aldmeri Dominion is apparently stuck with 2 of the least popular Races in TES games.(Mega Server Does not Fix this Problem it would be a bandaid to put on a Major Open Wound since in No Way is Player's Faction Choices/favorite races gonna be 33% per each faction.)
3. RvRvR(Aka Locked Factions Fighting for Control of Major Objectives). Why? is this idea constantly being reused! has it worked for a Game yet? Their is a Difference between Massive Siege Battles and RvRvR. If you played Shadowbane for a decent amount of time you probably know what i mean. Locked Factions Fighting for Objectives to control a Zone one side is gonna eventually Win because People Jump Ship from the losing factions side to the Winning Factions Side if its something as simple as Rerolling your character's race people avoid Challenges/problems if they can.
I Only see TESO Population / Success lasting for about 3-5months and this is on the Assumption that it has a Smooth Release.
In My Honest Opinion tho. When I Think Elder Scrolls meets MMO. I think of a game with Ultima Online's Choices and player Freedom Combined with TES fun Combat/ Immersive and Interactive World. ( By No means does Death's / PvP have to be as harsh as Ultima Onlines. While i Enjoyed UO's Death Penalty it can be to harsh for Newcomers. who basically haven't found their place in the World so compromises would have to have been made on such aspects.)
(Honestly Probability of me buying this game is about 50-50 at this point. Its riding basically on the back of its PvE Content/how fun its combat is which will most likely be seen in Beta. Since the Beta's Give a General idea of a Games Design/ Direction the Dev's are taking.)
TESO has been in this Trap/ stuck on the one way street that WoW Created the minute they decided to start taking Idea's From DAOC and other similar games that restrict Player Freedom/Choices.
I am sorry Hardcore DAOC fans but Daoc was a Good game but by no means was it SUCH a GREAT GAME that so many idea's should be taken from it and rehashed.
Locked Factions is gonna be TESO's Nail to the Coffin. Why you maybe wondering? here are some Reasons.
1.Don't get me wrong It Works only in Some Games.But I will use WoW as a Example since the game has 2 factions with seperate races and its a successful game. tho You are not very Restricted in which zones/ areas you can enter based on your Factions however u can only quest in some of them based on your faction. Not to Mention WoW's Main Selling Point / Key feature that keeps players playing it IS NOT (Locked Faction Open World PvP let alone PvP for that matter. is a Minority in that game.)
2. Population Imbalances. this is a Major/Key Problem that Feeds off itself. if a Factions Worlds starts to feel empty or is very onesided in World Objectives it just creates more problems. TESO Dev's are not even addressing this problem in fact they are just helping dig the hole by Locking Races to not 2 Factions but 3 Factions. So it is more likely that one faction is gonna be extremely at a Disadvantage/underpopulated aka from the looks of it Aldmeri Dominion is apparently stuck with 2 of the least popular Races in TES games.(Mega Server Does not Fix this Problem it would be a bandaid to put on a Major Open Wound since in No Way is Player's Faction Choices/favorite races gonna be 33% per each faction.)
3. RvRvR(Aka Locked Factions Fighting for Control of Major Objectives). Why? is this idea constantly being reused! has it worked for a Game yet? Their is a Difference between Massive Siege Battles and RvRvR. If you played Shadowbane for a decent amount of time you probably know what i mean. Locked Factions Fighting for Objectives to control a Zone one side is gonna eventually Win because People Jump Ship from the losing factions side to the Winning Factions Side if its something as simple as Rerolling your character's race people avoid Challenges/problems if they can.
I Only see TESO Population / Success lasting for about 3-5months and this is on the Assumption that it has a Smooth Release.
In My Honest Opinion tho. When I Think Elder Scrolls meets MMO. I think of a game with Ultima Online's Choices and player Freedom Combined with TES fun Combat/ Immersive and Interactive World. ( By No means does Death's / PvP have to be as harsh as Ultima Onlines. While i Enjoyed UO's Death Penalty it can be to harsh for Newcomers. who basically haven't found their place in the World so compromises would have to have been made on such aspects.)
(Honestly Probability of me buying this game is about 50-50 at this point. Its riding basically on the back of its PvE Content/how fun its combat is which will most likely be seen in Beta. Since the Beta's Give a General idea of a Games Design/ Direction the Dev's are taking.)
(Edited to fix Typos)
To be fair you may be right but then you may be wrong.
1. No idea what you mean here really. In WoW, Rift and a few others it is like that but I never really felt there cut away from content whatsoever. The only exception to this was Aion for sure. Won't speak of WAR as I haven't done much PvE there (if any).
2. and 3. That's what underdog systems are for. Don't look at WAR as it had it far from perfect but there are a few titles where it was used to boost interest in different content. That's what zone population cap is for. Set it high (but then set it at all) and problem solved. Not talking here about joke values like in GW2 but something more serious. There are tools, they just need to use them if required.
"related gizmos, like completion percentage. Telling a player how much % of the game they have completed, is like telling a person in real life the year and date that they are going to die on."
I have to say that I do agree with this. Mystery is a powerful tool that has been thrown in the trash bin.
Comments
Auction house alone is not a game breaker. It is a piece in a very large puzzle which comes together to create a very on rails and linear game experience.
Lets use the example of a recently released sequel to a successful MMO. The game is essentially divided into zones, and in each zone, you can do the following things:
- Heart quests
- Skill points
- Find waypoints
- Points of interest
- Group Events
- Vistas
- Collect crafting materials
- Jumping puzzles
Every next zone follows the exact same layout as the previous one. Do you see how a game can become shallow and repetitive if you remove all the 'inconveniences' or 'chores'? Do they honestly expect me to do the same exact thing over and over again in 25 different zones? It became boring when I reached the third zone.
The games don't make you do anything aside from your mob killing loop. Even all armor and weapons can be conveniently acquired from lizards, mammoths, deers, bears. Oh the horror of actually having to stop what you are doing, and figuring out how and where to acquire better gear, instead of being handed gear left and right. Why would a lizard carry around a steel mace of shock, or a bear live in some forest with a leather helmet of archery?
You don't have to figure ANYTHING out on your own, the game is built up in a way that all the time you have a clear goal, and you know exactly step by step how to acheive it. If you go near a heart, it gives you a detailed description of what the NPC requires, without ever having to go even within 50 meters of that person. The overall shallow feel is caused by the sum of the little streamlinings, not the individual parts on their own.
Do you see how absurd this has become? You can acquire a quest without even speaking to the NPC.
I dont see that as a bad thing. I liked GW2 i stopped playing it because there was not enough content and i never got to any dungeon because i did not like visuals of a dungeon gear. I how that game was structured and i enjoyed filling zones up to 100% .... that is what themepark MMOs are about. You want sandbox, but that is not gonna happen in ESO they are going to start beta, it is too late to remake whole game. I dont even think there is any AAA sandbox with lots of players, because hardcore crowd is pretty small compared to people who like themepark games.
Or simply people that have actual life and responsibles. Seems like OP thinks all things that make playing easier and less like work are automaticly bad things. I bet average player of todays MMOs has maybe 1/3 of time to spend on game than average gamer of early MMOs.
But what their research fails to do is figure out how to retain a large number of subs over the long haul. Most recent titles such as SWTOR, TSW and others really appear to miss the mark in their projections about how many subs they'll be retaining 6 months to a year out.
Blizzard seems to hold steady year after year, but most other titles (except maybe EVE) fail to grab people, they tend to consume MMO's as they do single player games. Burn through the available content, maybe create an alt or two for replayability, and then leave until the next content expansion comes out.
I'm starting to believe that the long term subscriber base today actually is about the same (relative) to what it was back in 2002, the big difference is the introduction of the more casual player who jumps in and out of them in short order.
Means the design of the game has to recover most of its cost in the first 3 months or less, so they can cut back and ride out the rest of the lifecycle at a much smaller scale.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Did the research conclude that the players want each zone to feel exactly like the one before it? Did it conclude that the players don't want to think, solve problems, but rather prefer to have everything laid out, predictable and clear from the beginning?
I think they might be assuming that casual player = dumb player. You can play a very complex game casually, and enjoy it. Why does everything have to be streamlined? Do casual MMO players want a game which basically insults their intelligence? I would assume they don't.
I though everyone here already understood that developers dont care to keep the masses with them, just to bring as much as possible in the beggining and remain with a lower but possibly stable population in the later months.
another thing op, why don't you like TSW? it isn't casual and streamlined in any shape or form compaired to the usual mmorpgs. It doesn't guide you and hold your hand, their investigation missions are pretty intense if you wanna do them on your own without googling a guide, etc etc.
or age of wushu, pretty deep intense sandbox game with so many possibilities.
why don't these games appeal to you? I think you just don't know what you want, since such games are there, yet you refuse to play them.
Actually I have 3 full sets of 10.4 gear in TSW, with the occasional 10.5. I have done the raid 30 times. I have the 5 minute kill acheivement of the raid. And I have completed every single NM dungeon. Oh and I have collected and read every single piece of lore in the game.
Under the surface, TSW is not deep. The background story is deep, but the game mechanics themselves are not. They make an illusion that it is deep, by having engaging and unique quests. But if you strip away the quests, and look at your gameplay that is not related to completing a specific quest, there isn't really all that much.
Only the skill wheel stands out as a positive thing. Trying to come up with builds was actually fun.
I consider gameplay depth and lore depth to be completely different things.
The faction conflict is shallow. It only consists of 3 PvP minigames, which, needless to say, only serve as a gear treadmill and have no risk involved.
Every single point I listed in my first post, is present. Provided, some of them aren't directly present, but you can use certain easy methods to get around that.
All MMOs end up being the same in some way shape or form. You can't get around that. You have to keep in mind that 90% of the 'gamers' in the MMO community are WoW only 'gamers'. They started with WoW and only know WoW. So when they go to a new MMO they are highly dissapointed because they don't have any background as to different aspects of gameplay.
Back in 1999-2004 you were lucky if you had 100k players in an MMO...now they expect 10+ million. Well a good percentage of those millions haven't a clue as to what they are talking about or what they want in an MMO. They call themselves gamers but don't take the time to step outside of their box. They will be the first to tell you they can't stand WoW and want a game that is different.
WoW set the bar becasue the majority of people who play it don't play games. The best way to get out of this rut is play the game because you like it. Don't worry about what reviews say or what other people say just play the game. We all followed SWTOR so close and it was hyped so much and became a let down for a lot of people. It's just like when you go to the movies. Your are so excited about a new movie that when you watch it it's not very good because you overhyped it in your mind.
Don't fall into that trap with ESO and remember; you will never find a group of 100% like minded players in any of these MMO's.
Oh and to respond to the OP...sounds like you should stop playing MMO's. These aren't the droids you're looking for.
It already added in instanced dungeons, phasing, "megaserver" phasing, and will have quest based leveling.
It's already casual.
*humble bow*
Well I have similar feelings. I really hope that theyr ecreate oldschool DAoC but then I feel that it won't be the case. Hopefully I am wrong.
Just for the record: Though' I haven't bothered to read through this entire thread, I have read about half of it. Enough to say:
OP: I feel with you. Contemporary MMOs are so bland, shallow and boring it is a shame. Dumbing down of the sheep. Everyone aiming at the golden-middle middle grounds. And every game being the same golden-middle ground. Sometimes in green. Sometimes in red. And some daring souls might even try blue. But the mind-numbing middle grounds are always aimed for.
*snore*
I lost interest in the genre. I think it will take a few years until someone comes up with something really interesting again. Not that the time wouldn't be ripe now. But - paradoxically - MMORPG game developpers seem to be one of the most conservative industries around these days.
to the OP
as hard as it is to beleave most people play games to have fun and work off the stress of life, not add to it or show off thier e-pen.
i know there are people out their like that and some people think they are the majority but they really arnt just the most outspoken.
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Why is the perception so often, that people put
challenge / harsh environment / cruel game settings = no fun / grind / frustration ?
I feel it is just different tastes. A game with a harsh-death penalty, for example, is per so no more "grindy" or anything, methinks, than any vanilla settings. Why is it also, that so many feel that harsh game settings are only attractive to folk that put 40 hours + game time in per week. I think it is by no means.
It is no more and no less than just different tastes and preferences. One gets frustrated by losing it all. Another gets the kick out of the threat of losing it all around the next corner... and persevering. To one, getting stripped of all stuff is frustrating. To another, it is just a "shit-happens", the cause for a good tale and nice RP. Perma-death to one is losing the beloved character forever. For another player perma-death is just that: The end of a virtual character. The start of a new one. And maybe cause for great tales and a bit of a dramatic mood and story?
I hate grinding, personally. But I love harsh death-settings and the rush of (real) adrenaline, even in virtual worlds. Some people do challenging, risky, tricky, difficult stuff for recreation. Play chess. Climb mountains. Solve mathematical and logic puzzles. What is so bizarre about the notion of a challenging, risky, tricky MMORPG I wonder?
Not all of us that have this preference are nerds or cats with too much time on our paws. It is just a matter of personal tastes. And I really doubt we are so few. There are just no MMORPGs for our tastes. Especially not if you combine the demand for "risky" mechanics with a game favouring, fostering and catered for "roleplay".
*Editted for a bazillion of typos.
WoW and GW2 have cemented the casual in the MMORPG. Aside from indie developers, I really don't see the genre changing because every game type is moving towards consolification/mobilzation.
As you pointed out, nowadays you don't even have to click an NPC to get a quest. People embrace this.
Well said. The adrenaline rush is one of the main things that I feel is missing in recent titles. And this is also one of the main reasons that I consider runescape (2007 and earlier) to be one of the best MMOs ever. They did eventually dumb it down with gravestones and whatnot. I would imagine EVE can offer something similar, but I'm not really into the whole space theme.
Just earlier today in the oldschool servers of RS, some mage had died to a few city guards, and I, as a complete noob, picked up his 60k gold and a bunch of runes. It was unexpected, and that's what made it memorable and fun. This extra layer of possible interaction between players (even though he was dead) is what gives the game depth. Basically the game lets this player 'create content' for me, instead of some dev needing to make something like that. This wasn't some intricately developed game system, it was just another person dying, and it was far more memorable than some zone boss in GW2 will ever be. Now, which is more efficient from a development standpoint, a zone boss, or a simple gear drop system that is developed once, and used permanently throughout the lifespan of the game, and is available in every situation, and everywhere.
Both of them are a bunch of code, but the gear loss system is content that the players use permanently, whereas a zone boss is only used for 5 minutes during the entire playthrough of the character (waste of development time and doesn't add to the overall 'selling points' of the game).
Games like dayz don't have any quests or any set goals, they rely completely on players creating content for eachother, and I believe this is a huge missed opportunity in the modern MMOs. They try too hard to have everything made on the development level, and end up having insane budgets.
Nothing has even come close to the feeling of going into the wilderness in RS with insane amount of risk, knowing full well that if I die, I'll lose all of it. The adrenaline from doing something like that can keep you shaky, sleepless and anxious for hours and I love it.
I just haven't felt that way while playing any other MMO. Tried runes of magic, tried GW2, tried TSW, tried lineage 2, and a lot of the smaller MMOs like MU online, dragon raja and helbreath, sword of the new world. DayZ is the only recently released game that has got something like that to offer, but that isn't really a MMO in the traditional sense.
TESO has been in this Trap/ stuck on the one way street that WoW Created the minute they decided to start taking Idea's From DAOC and other similar games that restrict Player Freedom/Choices.
I am sorry Hardcore DAOC fans but Daoc was a Good game but by no means was it SUCH a GREAT GAME that so many idea's should be taken from it and rehashed.
Locked Factions is gonna be TESO's Nail to the Coffin. Why you maybe wondering? here are some Reasons.
1.Don't get me wrong It Works only in Some Games.But I will use WoW as a Example since the game has 2 factions with seperate races and its a successful game. tho You are not very Restricted in which zones/ areas you can enter based on your Factions however u can only quest in some of them based on your faction. Not to Mention WoW's Main Selling Point / Key feature that keeps players playing it IS NOT (Locked Faction Open World PvP let alone PvP for that matter. is a Minority in that game.)
2. Population Imbalances. this is a Major/Key Problem that Feeds off itself. if a Factions Worlds starts to feel empty or is very onesided in World Objectives it just creates more problems. TESO Dev's are not even addressing this problem in fact they are just helping dig the hole by Locking Races to not 2 Factions but 3 Factions. So it is more likely that one faction is gonna be extremely at a Disadvantage/underpopulated aka from the looks of it Aldmeri Dominion is apparently stuck with 2 of the least popular Races in TES games.(Mega Server Does not Fix this Problem it would be a bandaid to put on a Major Open Wound since in No Way is Player's Faction Choices/favorite races gonna be 33% per each faction.)
3. RvRvR(Aka Locked Factions Fighting for Control of Major Objectives). Why? is this idea constantly being reused! has it worked for a Game yet? Their is a Difference between Massive Siege Battles and RvRvR. If you played Shadowbane for a decent amount of time you probably know what i mean. Locked Factions Fighting for Objectives to control a Zone one side is gonna eventually Win because People Jump Ship from the losing factions side to the Winning Factions Side if its something as simple as Rerolling your character's race people avoid Challenges/problems if they can.
I Only see TESO Population / Success lasting for about 3-5months and this is on the Assumption that it has a Smooth Release.
In My Honest Opinion tho. When I Think Elder Scrolls meets MMO. I think of a game with Ultima Online's Choices and player Freedom Combined with TES fun Combat/ Immersive and Interactive World. ( By No means does Death's / PvP have to be as harsh as Ultima Onlines. While i Enjoyed UO's Death Penalty it can be to harsh for Newcomers. who basically haven't found their place in the World so compromises would have to have been made on such aspects.)
(Honestly Probability of me buying this game is about 50-50 at this point. Its riding basically on the back of its PvE Content/how fun its combat is which will most likely be seen in Beta. Since the Beta's Give a General idea of a Games Design/ Direction the Dev's are taking.)
(Edited to fix Typos)
To be fair you may be right but then you may be wrong.
1. No idea what you mean here really. In WoW, Rift and a few others it is like that but I never really felt there cut away from content whatsoever. The only exception to this was Aion for sure. Won't speak of WAR as I haven't done much PvE there (if any).
2. and 3. That's what underdog systems are for. Don't look at WAR as it had it far from perfect but there are a few titles where it was used to boost interest in different content. That's what zone population cap is for. Set it high (but then set it at all) and problem solved. Not talking here about joke values like in GW2 but something more serious. There are tools, they just need to use them if required.
"related gizmos, like completion percentage. Telling a player how much % of the game they have completed, is like telling a person in real life the year and date that they are going to die on."
I have to say that I do agree with this. Mystery is a powerful tool that has been thrown in the trash bin.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011