Alternatives to stealth. Let's be prepared.

Speely

So stealth is an unsurprisingly volatile issue for the early CU community. I would like to have a discussion about options other than stealth for rogues and archers.

Some people (myself included) like to play lightly-armored, high dps classes that make you feel like a ninja. Oftentimes, others feel that stealth makes these classes OP. This thread is not about discussing stealth. This is about options that could be implemented instead of stealth. Btw, I personally like daoc stealth.

What if rogue types had better evasion and mobility? Rolls and dodges, ect? Now, this would be easier in an aim/twitch mmo, but even in a tab targetting mmo, evasive maneuvers could affect the RNG for hits and misses. Active defenses rather than passive evasion chance.

Greater mobility could be in the form of faster sprint speed in combat and better jumping ability. Maybe let rogue types have a bit more freedom of movement since they are a lightly-armored type of too..

Disguise. I really want this one. Paranoia is a fun thing.

Again, I am not saying I don't want stealth, but it is a possibility that CU won't have it, and it's better to let MJ know what options we would like in the event that he decides that the game will be better sans-stealth.

Ideas are welcome

Odaman

Main ways to have an assassin without stealth are mobility and escape abilities which you already mentioned. Self knockbacks and leaps... but that opens up things that I think some find just as bad as stealth. Me personally I'd rather see stealth than leaps, pulls, and knockbacks. Disguises would be interesting, but implementation would be everything there and I wouldn't begin to know how they'd do it well.

Edit: I do think vampiirs in daoc were a decent route to make a low armor character viable without stealth. Not the exact implementation mind you, but the idea of having a very squishy class initially that would power up as a fight progresses was a decent idea. Maybe not go so far as vampiir, and force the spec to determine how they power up (dmg/utility/survivability). Forgive me if I cause flashbacks of crab powered claw spammers.

Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by Odaman
Main ways to have an assassin without stealth are mobility and escape abilities which you already mentioned. Self knockbacks and leaps... but that opens up things that I think some find just as bad as stealth. Me personally I'd rather see stealth than leaps, pulls, and knockbacks. Disguises would be interesting, but implementation would be everything there and I wouldn't begin to know how they'd do it well.

Agree, leaps, pulls, knockbacks are horrible combat mechanics. Don't know what we'll see in CU but hope they arn't there.

Hairyzac

I personally do not want to see classes who can go permanently into stealth in CU.  If there indeed happens to be a rogue-type class, and the devs feel the need to include some type of stealth ability or abilities...I would hope they would be only for a short specified amount of time.

 

For instance, the ability to vanish from your opponents view and move through the shadows quickly to another opponent standing some yards away would be a neat ability.  But it would only be for a 10 second window.  So you activate your stealth, and it becomes very hard to detect you.  In this 10 second window you can use stealth only abilities like the one described which is similar to a rogue's shadowstep in WoW.

Plastic-Metal

Stealth is an incredible tactic, but it also gets a bad reputation due to insane abilities that usually result in poor implementation from the developer and not necessarily the player.

• Agility, light armor based class
• Stealth comes from hiding in shadows/near structures, but is not 100% invisible; if you're standing next to it, you can see it - completely invisible during night time day cycles
• Allow the use of poisons and diseases, even traps
• Increased survivability through the use of escape techniques, not in-combat abilities to render targets unable to respond.  Literally means to allow the player to escape from death.
• The only class capable of climbing walls into keeps, towers, and other structures
• Utilizes two primary spec trees:  Close range (dual wield or fist combat) or Ranged (short bow, long bow); both cannot be obtained, but players can dual spec to be an 'average' well rounded recon class.
• Introduce Sabotage:  allows the class to go completely invisible, increases movement speed by 100%, lasts 15 seconds.  While sabotage is active, the player may sabotage an enemy's siege equipment or structure's wall/door causing it to temporarily critically fail or cause significant damage.  During this time period, the player cannot attack for 20 seconds.  If sabotage is successful, stealth duration increases for an additional 5 seconds.  Cannot use in combat.  (This allows players to have both stealth, serve a purpose for the realm, additional 'get away' skill, and allow undetected scouting.)
• Reintroduce Safe Fall:  allow the class to take reduced damage from falling higher distances.
• Reintroduce Vanish:  allow the class to vanish in combat, but make it an ability earned by sacrificing something else. Increased movement speed by 150%, last for 10 seconds, but suffers an attack penalty if discovered.

 

EDIT:  It's important to note I do not play stealth classes; I typically play casters or heavy tanks in every game I've played.

Hairyzac

No one class should be given the ability to climb the walls of a keep.  Frankly no one should be able to do this.

Plastic-Metal

Originally posted by Hairyzac
No one class should be given the ability to climb the walls of a keep.  Frankly no one should be able to do this.

The counter was very easy in Dark Age of Camelot and the system worked brilliantly.   It's also important to note I don't play stealth classes - I usually play ranged or tanks in every game.  In addition, siege towers were later introduced allowing other classes to scale walls, too.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Hairyzac
No one class should be given the ability to climb the walls of a keep.  Frankly no one should be able to do this.

No one class did have the ability to climb the walls of a keep, I was a Minstrel and spent a lot of time up on the walls with my Infiltrator brothers.   Can't remember, did Archers have the ability to scale walls?

I like the idea of having disguises, where a stealther could cloak himself to look just like someone from another realm, unless someone dropped some sort of active, but somewhat longish cooldown ability to reveal them. (restricted to perhaps archers only)

 

 

Odaman

Archers didn't, but they later gave the ability to heavy tanks (hero/war/arms). Climbing spikes or something, and it had a cd unlike assassin/minstril versions.

Wraithone

Limited distance teleport (like WoW rogue shadow step), very high dodge, parry skills.  Fast movement rates.  But I'm always amused by those who go into hysterics over real stealth (not the half assed GW2 type).

Niix_Ozek

Why shouldn't rogue classes be able to climb walls? That thinking is way too linear
Adds a much deeper depth to keep defense/attacking and gives stealthers a use in it

Wolvan

Once again, its the people who haven't played stealther's who want to get rid of stealth because they lack personal awareness and got ganked occasionally.

 

Real stealth is vital to a good RvR game for scouting, etc.  Being able to look inside keeps to count troops, coorindate targets for siege/GTAOE attacks etc. 

 

Explaining stealth using magic is easy.  Think stepping into a shadowworld (LOTR movie, with the 1 ring), stepping behind the viel etc etc.  Whatever you wanna call it. 

 

 

Jimmac

Originally posted by Wolvan

Once again, its the people who haven't played stealther's who want to get rid of stealth because they lack personal awareness and got ganked occasionally.

Real stealth is vital to a good RvR game for scouting, etc.  Being able to look inside keeps to count troops, coorindate targets for siege/GTAOE attacks etc. 

Explaining stealth using magic is easy.  Think stepping into a shadowworld (LOTR movie, with the 1 ring), stepping behind the viel etc etc.  Whatever you wanna call it. 

 

As I explained in the other thread, invisibility is not vital to a good RVR game. It is not needed for scouting or recon at all, since there are plenty of other perfectly viable ways to have scouting and recon. That said, invisibility is a good option, but certainly not vital.

Hairyzac

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
Why shouldn't rogue classes be able to climb walls? That thinking is way too linear
Adds a much deeper depth to keep defense/attacking and gives stealthers a use in it

Well I've never experienced that type of game play.  So you could see how my opinion would be a bit different than yours I guess.  Certainly you and the other poster that responded are more suited to talk about it.  But IDK it just seems a bit ridiculous to me when speaking in regards to just giving it to say, rogues, and no other classes.  IMO stealthers already have a big use and that is the ability to stealth and have the element of surprise whenever you wish.

Hairyzac

Originally posted by Jimmac

Originally posted by Wolvan

Once again, its the people who haven't played stealther's who want to get rid of stealth because they lack personal awareness and got ganked occasionally.

Real stealth is vital to a good RvR game for scouting, etc.  Being able to look inside keeps to count troops, coorindate targets for siege/GTAOE attacks etc. 

Explaining stealth using magic is easy.  Think stepping into a shadowworld (LOTR movie, with the 1 ring), stepping behind the viel etc etc.  Whatever you wanna call it. 

 

As I explained in the other thread, invisibility is not vital to a good RVR game. It is not needed for scouting or recon at all, since there are plenty of other perfectly viable ways to have scouting and recon. That said, invisibility is a good option, but certainly not vital.

Jimmac makes a great point.  Personally I have never played a stealther at level cap.  I am certainly welcome to the idea of having a class like this but I feel there should just be restrictions.  Someone already made a thread that has a few great ideas how to make stealth balanced and worthwhile in CU.  Check it out.

Bent

Rogues could have an advanced "sprint."  

A faster movement speed than other classes, and while active they have a better change of dodging single target spells (if spells autoaim).  Drains energy when active.  

Rogues advantage would come from having an easier time of landing positionals based on having faster speed, and having an easier time escaping/avoiding positionals.

 

When I think Rogue (without stealth) I see fast lightly armored toons,

Against armored targets they would need to rely on positionals to apply damage (bypass some armor), debuffs, and dots, otherwise do very weak dps.

Against unarmored targets the would do normal damage and positionals wouldn't be required in order to activate debuffs.

I am basaically asking for a system for which ARMOR reduces or prevents physical debuffs from being applied without a positional requirement.  And allowing rogues an easier time of landing positionals (speed).  This supports rogues being "caster killers," but having a chance agaisnt armor classes if everything goes right for them.  

Something like "Stun - stuns enemy for 3secs, chance to stun reduced by % armor mitigation of enemy.  If enemy is struck from behind armor is not applied." Both rogues and non-rogues could have the same skill, but in a 1v1 the rogue would have a better chance of landing it, due to being able to move faster.  In a larger  choatifc battle, I would expect anyone be able to land the skill, rogues would just have a easier time reaching optimal targets due to their speed.      

Alternately rogues could just be given a wider "hit" cone to land positionals.

I like it this way because even though rogues are known as the "backstabbers" I honestly would be more worried having someone with a great axe taking a swing at my backside.

Guild Wars 1 had it so if you hit another player's back you had a higher crit chance.  This often made running away from someone that you couldn't outpace a bad idea.    

That said I don't mind stealth as it was in DAoC.  I just didn't like running into stealth groups.  Nor, contasntly casting lvl1 pbae to try to pop stealthers. I think it is silly you can know a stealther is around, but not find them unless you get lucky and hit them with a pbae or gtae.  That fact that an enemy stealther could and often would emote you from the shadows, shows how strong stealth was in DAoC.  I was guilty of doing that myself.    

  

Plastic-Metal

Originally posted by Wolvan

Once again, its the people who haven't played stealther's who want to get rid of stealth because they lack personal awareness and got ganked occasionally.

 

I support the implementation of DAoC's stealth into Camelot Unchained, I was merely giving suggestions on how to implement a stealthy style class into the game without actually having stealth.  The problem people seem to actually have isn't stealth itself, but the massive burst dps from openers; then it becomes further tainted by World of Warcraft's influence of stunlocking.

Stealth in DAoC wasn't bad; it was only bad after ToA was released IMO.  But here again, the best days of DAoC were before ToA.

Stiler

Stealth needs to be counters, and not be perma stealth or "instant stealth. It should depend on both the area they are in, the time of day (IE night/day) and other elements.

A stealth class should play like a stealth class, using cover, hiding withint he environment (IE up in trees, inside foilage, using the cover of shadows, etc).

 

I posted before but if there is a type of "invis" stealth, perhaps having it work based on distance? Imagine for exampole, when someone is in stealth there' sa "bubble" around their character, that goes to "x" distance, anyone outside of this bubble does not see them, but someone that gets close enough does.

 

This would require stealthers to keep their distance, it would allow people that get near them to detect/see them, it makes tealthers into more of a "recon" type scout unit then the burst assassin in that way.

 

Also regarding walls, IMO climing walls is a part of sieging, and should be in game. You should have ladders that can be used for normal units to climb walls, siege towers for even heavier numbers of troops, and a few classes should be able to rope climb up them (the lighter/more nimble classes).

However such things also need counters, you shoudl be able to push ladders off walls, attack siege towers/set them on fire, cut ropes , etc.

 

Tumblebutz

As has been stated, many times, the problem most people have with Stealthers isn't stealth, it's the burst damage from stealth.  Remove this and most of the whining would probably go away.

That said, I'd still like to see Stealthers serve a larger role in REALM warfare... certainly more than ganking the dimwitted solo'er here and there.

How about giving Stealthers the ability to infiltrate keeps in order to somehow expedite a keep take.  Give them the ability to sabotage siege equipment.  And give them the ability to SCOUT!  Give them a role to fill in RvR!

Plastic-Metal

Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

Stealth is an incredible tactic, but it also gets a bad reputation due to insane abilities that usually result in poor implementation from the developer and not necessarily the player.

• Agility, light armor based class
• Stealth comes from hiding in shadows/near structures, but is not 100% invisible; if you're standing next to it, you can see it - completely invisible during night time day cycles
• Allow the use of poisons and diseases, even traps
• Increased survivability through the use of escape techniques, not in-combat abilities to render targets unable to respond.  Literally means to allow the player to escape from death.
• The only class capable of climbing walls into keeps, towers, and other structures
• Utilizes two primary spec trees:  Close range (dual wield or fist combat) or Ranged (short bow, long bow); both cannot be obtained, but players can dual spec to be an 'average' well rounded recon class.
• Introduce Sabotage:  allows the class to go completely invisible, increases movement speed by 100%, lasts 15 seconds.  While sabotage is active, the player may sabotage an enemy's siege equipment or structure's wall/door causing it to temporarily critically fail or cause significant damage.  During this time period, the player cannot attack for 20 seconds.  If sabotage is successful, stealth duration increases for an additional 5 seconds.  Cannot use in combat.  (This allows players to have both stealth, serve a purpose for the realm, additional 'get away' skill, and allow undetected scouting.)
• Reintroduce Safe Fall:  allow the class to take reduced damage from falling higher distances.
• Reintroduce Vanish:  allow the class to vanish in combat, but make it an ability earned by sacrificing something else. Increased movement speed by 150%, last for 10 seconds, but suffers an attack penalty if discovered.

 

EDIT:  It's important to note I do not play stealth classes; I typically play casters or heavy tanks in every game I've played.

^^^  My solutions solve the problems you're talking about, Tumblebutz.

Tumblebutz

Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

Stealth is an incredible tactic, but it also gets a bad reputation due to insane abilities that usually result in poor implementation from the developer and not necessarily the player.

• Agility, light armor based class
• Stealth comes from hiding in shadows/near structures, but is not 100% invisible; if you're standing next to it, you can see it - completely invisible during night time day cycles

I would suggest an increased stealth while stationary and decreased stealth while moving.

• Allow the use of poisons and diseases, even traps

Traps, yes.  Poisons?  Hmmm... have to be careful here.  Remember, I would like to move away from an "assassination" based Stealth archetype.  If poisons had some other utility, then that might be good.

• Increased survivability through the use of escape techniques, not in-combat abilities to render targets unable to respond.  Literally means to allow the player to escape from death.

This is touchy.  One thing players HATE is when Stealthers escape otherwise certain death.  A surefire escape mechanism is a surefire rage mechanism.  I would prefer a means of AVOIDING combat, altogether.  Once you're in combat, you finish it.

• The only class capable of climbing walls into keeps, towers, and other structures

Yes, absolutely.  Perhaps include siege towers to allow others to negotiate the walls, but Stealthers should be the only ones to climb them without assistance.

• Utilizes two primary spec trees:  Close range (dual wield or fist combat) or Ranged (short bow, long bow); both cannot be obtained, but players can dual spec to be an 'average' well rounded recon class.

Okay, I can agree on this.

• Introduce Sabotage:  allows the class to go completely invisible, increases movement speed by 100%, lasts 15 seconds.  While sabotage is active, the player may sabotage an enemy's siege equipment or structure's wall/door causing it to temporarily critically fail or cause significant damage.  During this time period, the player cannot attack for 20 seconds.  If sabotage is successful, stealth duration increases for an additional 5 seconds.  Cannot use in combat.  (This allows players to have both stealth, serve a purpose for the realm, additional 'get away' skill, and allow undetected scouting.)

I like the concept.

• Reintroduce Safe Fall:  allow the class to take reduced damage from falling higher distances.

Agreed.

• Reintroduce Vanish:  allow the class to vanish in combat, but make it an ability earned by sacrificing something else. Increased movement speed by 150%, last for 10 seconds, but suffers an attack penalty if discovered.

Again, very touchy.  When you're caught, you're caught.  Fight it out or die.

 

EDIT:  It's important to note I do not play stealth classes; I typically play casters or heavy tanks in every game I've played.

^^^  My solutions solve the problems you're talking about, Tumblebutz.

I like the overall concept.  Nicely done.

Plastic-Metal

It needs a little refinement, but still moving in the correct direction I think; I agree that 'escape death' abilities are hot topics and perhaps a better alternative is provide abilities to simply avoid combat all together.  That doesn't mean enter combat immediately from stealth, either.. it would just mean allowing a player to pick fights.

Speely

Nice work, Plastic-Metal. Sabotage in particular is very nice as a concept.

Kvalandur

As alternatives to stealth, it might be interesting to consider allowing thieves (rogues) the active ability to roll away from an opponent. The assassin could also have an active ability, say a leap away from an opponent. Both would be activated by pressing a key. In the assassins case, hitting the jump button would negate the leap action. This would help prevent the combat bunny hop.

Still think jumping should use Stamina.

tmtProdigy

Originally posted by PerfArt
[...] Disguise. [...]

Ahhh this sounds awesome, how about no stealth but you appear to be of the other realm. Like a changeling in starcraft it cant be spotted by your enemy other than by trying to attacking you or something...

falcuk

As somoene who played Stealthers almost exclusively for many years i like these changes, they fit Assassin types really well, for Archery types though i would give them less sneaky stuff and more utility type stuff  like Flare arrows that ping the map to show where fights are, smoke arrows that leave clouds behind, imagine a dozen scouts laying down a smoke screen and then 100 of their friends running throug it! crap yer pants time

 

also give Archers run boosts and stationary camoflauge etc, their job is to get in places, hide, and observe, then let their realm know whats going on, give them the tools for these, arrows that root by pinning the foot to the floor etc, concussion arrows that stun or mez an oponent for a short duration broken by combat so they can escape etc