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Game Mechanic: Full Loot PVP?
BitterClinger
Member UncommonPosts: 439
This is a question for gamers that desire, play, or enjoy games with full loot PVP systems.
How does "full loot" benefit a game or its players?
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Comments
Depends on if full loot achieves anything. Normally it doesn't.
For instance in territory control if you can't finicially damage someone it means that the only way to make someone stop/leave is to make them quit. Which means there's more griefing than real gameplay.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
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Philosophy of MMO Game Design
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
it makes the game more interesting by adding a risk element to otherwise risk free games. Full loot gives the player a degree of choice over how much risk to take.
Do I use my expensive set of gear for this loot run, and hunt something tough (high risk, for a high reward)
Do I use my cheaper set of gear for this loot run, and hunt weaker stuff (low risk, low reward).
Just one example.
You may decide to take your best gear out for hunting, in the hopes of bringing back overall much better loot from the harder stuff you can take on, or just from the increased killing speed. You may have a good farming session and bring back lots of loot, and feel good for it. Or it could go badly wrong, you die and lose your best gear, this will probably make you feel quite upset. That's the point though, you have ups and downs, something that is severely lacking in the current mmorpgs where all players are in a constant state of no risk no reward, just a general feeling of "meh boring" that never goes away.
People claim to be getting sick of the carrot on a stick formula, well a full loot game has no such gear grind, because you change gear often and never have just one set that will last forever. You could try to make such a set, by acquiring all of the best gear available in game, but if it's really as valuable as it should be, you probably will save it only for very special occasions that warrant the risk of using such gear.
A good example would be farming liches or lich lords in dungeon deceit in classic UO. To really do it effectively you needed a silver weapon, and if you chose lich lords, you needed an exceptionally high value silver weapon. This enabled you to farm high risk high reward monsters for loot but there was always the risk of dying either to monsters or to other players but that's the risk you took. I used to do this a lot and I got extremely wealthy from it. Sure sometimes i died and it sucked but overall it made me rich.
Full loot is also a perfect counter to those who would ruin the game through botting. You can't run a bot farming monsters if a player can simply spot the bot, kill it, and take the loot. Botting is ineffective in such a game.
To summarize
1. Adds the much needed element of risk and feeling of reward to an increasingly boring genre of mmos
2. Gets rid of the carrot on a stick formula of gear grinding.
3. Is an execellent counter to botting providing that there are no safe places for bots to be used.
Full loot solves many problems that plague todays mmos!
Alone it adds more risk to PvP and an alternative PvP-way to obtain items and currency.
I think realism is the main reason for me. I kill you, I get to take the stuff off of your body. Like a viking.
Games also need a solid encumbrance system to go along with full loot IMO.
Its the difference between making dying more like a sport, "oh look they got past our defenses and scored a goal" vs a war where it is, "oh look, they got past our defenses and destroyed the town and everyone in it"
The stakes are much higher, you only fight when victory is, if not assured, is at least possible, and you learn to withdraw as necesary.
Even in PVE, you don't throw all caution to the wind, you measure your steps carefully and make sure you don't bite off more than you can chew.
Now personally I prefer limiters on the system that let players manage the level of risk they wish to take (a la EVE) vs a more free form full loot environment like the original Darkfall or UO mostly because, well, I suck at PVP actually.
Think of me as more like home guard or militia vs a highly trained modern fighting soldier and you'll have a good idea on my effectiveness. I get kills more often by being lucky (or in numbers) than by being good.
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Realism should not get in the way of fun.
Do you want the need to go to bathroom in games? How about sweating? Laundry? Flu?
It is laughable to talk abotu realism in games where you can throw fireball, and fight impossible creatures like dragons.
You ... who is asking questions that have nothing to do the OP's question. It is indeed interesting.
.....
pass me the popcorn.
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How does it benefit the game? Easy. The full loot is part of the game, and having it changes the game to make it unique from other games that don't have full loot.
It's like comparing a Jeep Cherokee to a Chevy Malibu. Both are transportation, but they service different demographics.
EDIT: regarding "for gamers that desire, play, or enjoy games with full loot PVP systems"... feel free to ignore my answer as I personally am a die-hard PVE'er.
And damage, if you really want to get realistic. Not everything should be in a lootable state - that armour I just spent twenty minutes poking holes in is probably not going to be worth wearing myself. (Melted for scrap and reforged... maybe.)
On the market side, full-loss (whether full loot or partial loot, like eve) creates demand for a greater diversity of craftables. It makes room for weaponsmiths who actually make swords, instead of just whetstones to improve or buff the LEET Sword Of Doom that you'll never lose (until the next gear-tier renders it obsolete.)
It slows down the gear-inflation rate as well; top-end craftables become the 'default tier' for most activities, since they're relatively easily replaced if they're lost, and better/more expensive stuff winds up falling into 'risk/reward' analaysis rather than just being flat-out necessary. Some folks don't like this, but I love it myself - it helps to keep the 'real' end-game within reach of late-comers, instead of constantly shifting it further down the line.
Also, what others said about risk. Poker is a better game when played for real money than when played for fake chips from a stack you can just refresh at will. PvP, IMO at least, is a better game when played for in-game stakes instead of just progressing up a ladder (official or otherwise.)
But. All of this only applies if it's done right, in the right context with the right supporting systems.
[quote] Originally posted by evemaster00
Oh hell yes. I forgot about that. Even in hi-sec, suicideganks against bot-miners were still incredibly satisfying.
It also (theoretically, at least) allows for the possibility of more general player-invoked justice. Someone just ninjad the loot on you? Don't just cry on the guild-chat or scream murder on vent: spank his ass and take that loot back.
Granted in practice this was often abused - the guys in need of a good smackdown were often adept at avoiding it (or being the ones doing the smacking.) But the idea was there, and sometimes it worked.
[quote] Originally posted by evemaster00
Full loot systems usually benefit the games and their players by allowing the economy in those games that were designed around the feature to function reasonably well.
To the OP, you might get better answers if you differentiate between different kinds of PVP... even under the header "full loot pvp" there are variations that, to me, make all the difference.
as kyleran pointed out earlier in EVE (which i have played for, omg, 6 years... dear god i'm old) there is PVP and players can take your stuff but there are an array of less and more safe environments available to players, so they can greatly mitgate their risk.
In a game like darkfall there were no ways to mitigate your risk (other than hanging around a lot of friendly people) but, gear was very easy to attain so being looted in darkfall was not as bad as, say, having a marauder ganked on you in eve because you were tomfool enough to drive it through low-sec.
there were also some "partial loot" games.... one of the original Zek servers in EQ... dont ask me which as its been a while... had you drop only some items (eq was the originator of "no drop" items!) Lineage 2 was "partial loot" as well as only red players (gankers) had the chance to drop an item (notice, not all their items) when they died. non reds, however, DID lose XP when they died. (i dunno if this is the case in L2 anymore.)
to answer the OP as best i can, I enjoy Eve's style of full loot pvp because it rewards intelligent risk taking and planning as opposed to blindly throwing ones self at the enemy (or for that matter at a random passer-by). Gear in Eve can get very expensive so losing a ship hurts and can set someone back but will not completely devastate them (again, if they're smart). There is always a chance someone is going to pvp you, but there are ways to modify that chance greatly. to me this balance is what makes me prefer eve to say, darkfall.
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I play EVE. Approximately 50% of any mods and cargo in a ship are destroyed when a ship is destroyed; the rest drop as loot
There are several "benefits" to this system - although some might not see them as a benefit, so let's just call them 'consequences'.
Most obviously, the item destruction keeps the resource gathering -> refining -> transport -> marketing -> end-user purchase supply chain going. In other words, the engine of destruction provides plenty of demand for non-destructive activity and helps contain mudflation
Secondarily, the fact that "every ship dies eventually" stops (or at least greatly slows) the inexorable accumulation of better gear. There is a strong incentive to use relatively cheap Tech 2 gear on one's ships, even if you're a very high skill, experienced player, because sooner or later you will lose your ship. This levelling factor helps to keep a measure of equality. It's not perfect, and people do fly "pimped" ships with fancy gear and get good results, but the most cost-effective route is to use the same T2 gear that virtually everyone else uses. In a game where gear is never lost, the only acceptable gear is the absolute best. Everything else is just a waypoint. Thus new/poor players are permanently excluded and disadvantaged unless and untilt hey can catch up.
Thirdly, knowing that there are irretrievable consequences makes the PvP much more exciting. Ask any EVE PvPer about his first jump out of hi-sec, or his first fight, or his first solo kill. Nearly all of them will talk about "the shakes" - the heart pounds, the hand shakes, the brow sweats. It is an extraordinarily intense experience, and I was utterly shocked when it happened to me, because I'd never felt any emotion 1% as powerful from playing any other game. I sucked at PvP when I was a noob, and I still suck at it now, but I still chase that feeling (I just get a little tingle these days; I'm much better at surviving that I used to be
)
Give me liberty or give me lasers
This is absolutely true. Realism is a ridiculous concept for games.
Usually what people really mean when they say "realism" is "immersiveness". That's a much more important concept.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
People are getting so bored of the current trend of themepark gear grind games.
I really think that a good full loot game with items reguarly leaving the economy through players hoarding collected items and or item loss due to durability on items reaching 0 is what the genre needs. It solves so many problems.
As mentioned earlier, it gives way for a real economy, it makes botting difficult, it gives players the element of risk and adventure and the feeling of reward (or loss) for their actions.
Look how well EVE is doing, one of the few games to continually grow over the years, the total opposite of what occurs in the majority of games.
A fantasy style game with EVE like mechanics could well do even better than EVE itself.
There has been small scale indy attempts to make such a game but most have failed. This doesn't have to mean that people don't want this style of game, it may just be that they were bad games.
Hopfully Everquest Next is going to tackle this issue and give us all of these things. If they don't go with full loot they will be leaving out an immersive and important feature.
Haha! Now you have summoned the Dread Legion of everquest fans who will tear you asunder for voicing this blasphemy
Give me liberty or give me lasers
You say you hate grind but ironically you play a game which is nothing but grind apart from PvP. Seriously, if you're not making your ISK through the various AFK methods, you are grinding. You grind to get more shit and to recuperate from your losses.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Who says I even play EVE any more? I don't like the way its turned into nothing but carebeared up alliances in "dangerous space" UO was more my style.
Full loot pvp isn't as bad as it sounds. Don't knock it until you try it.
The benefit isn't for the person who gets killed, it is the thrilling experience for the killer. The hunt, the discovery, the strike. Bitter disappointment in failure, exhiliration from success.
The biggest objections to full loot pvp come from the people who will likely get looted the most, but nobody is making them play the game. Eventually these games spin off the players who don't like the full loot aspect and are left with people who can tolerate it, who want to hunt and kill eachother, who are absolutely thrilled with the experience.
These games are not the world of warcraft. Typically the loot you wear isn't as valuable as in other mmo games. In WoW if someone shards all your gear, you're basically a level 55 and have 3 months of recovery until you can play again. In these full loot type games, having your gear lost or destroyed typically sets you back between 3 and 24 play hours.
Often times, you already have a few sets of spare gear in the bank for just such an unfortunate circumstance.
Really, before continuing to make vocal objections to these games, realize that they are not group raid endgame instance focused games, they are pvp focused. The game is meant to be fun, not to make you run around in your underwear. Everyone gets killed and looted at some point, and it makes you seethe with hatred for your killer. Then you get a friend and go for revenge.
The experience is fantastic.
In UO being killed and looted could set you back as little as 10 minutes providing you were using crafted gear and were good enough at the game to be able to get enough money to pay for a new crafted set in no time at all.
If you were a little richer you might use top crafted gear and a magic weapon, a death may set you back an hour or so of farming, but in many cases you'll make a lot more than you lose.