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There are no raids... can you live with that?
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I agree with Sapphen,
If they do add raids to this game, I hope that they take time to ensure that they add something unique and within the design elements that players are after.
They are making FPV an element in this game, I'd like to see any raiding content that they add actually benefit from that in some degree as well.
I have completed it too. Calling that a raid is like calling Gw2 zerg events a raid, or Rifts zone events, or even Lfr. You have to practically try to fail it. Sheer number of players does not meet the conventional definition of raid. If that is a raid I guess the "10 man" quests they added to lairs are raids too right?
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
Options are a good thing. But, not the option is the problem.. the problem is the reward, which usually is part of that option.
Would you be happy with Raids without any Reward, and especially no epic gear? If so.. raids would just mean additional work and another options.. but point is, most players, which play raids play them for the fat loot. And with that almost everything from your designed game will be influenced by it.. and then it is not just a option, then it is a gamechanging, gamedefining feature.
For me personally raids are not really interesting, i am more of a pvp player, and raids were in a lot of games just a pain in the ass for the pvp part of that game. But that is just me. I fully understand that a lot of ppl like to raid, like to collect loot and all the buzz going with it. But there are also a lot of ppl sick of gear grind, and withit raids.
Ok. but you may be 1 out of 1000. Just do another poll. And ask how many Raiders would raid for hours without any reward or just that reward they could craft solo? I do think not a lot.
And even more.. no next tier of raiding, because there is no gear progression?
The problem is.. raiding, tiered content, gear progression dont fit well with other content type like crafting, pvp and other things. And raiding without tiered content and gear progression is not interesting for the greater audience of raiders.
They will say(and are absolutly right doing so), why should i play that game, raid for hours without any reward, or just a reward i could buy from almost any crafter? I will stay in WoW and raid there, where i will be at least recognised and get my fat loot.
PvP with crafting and economy play dont fit well with raiding and gear progression. That is a hard lessen learned in a lot of games from the past.
ESO has choosen the PvP and crafting part and the price is to dismiss raiding.
Very simple. You have say 20 items on a char. Give each play type 5 best in slot. So raiding gets 5 items that are best in slot, crafters get 5, explorers get 5 and dungeons get 5 slots that are also best in slot. All play types can have 2nd best in slot. Fair and now a reason for people to do all content or live with 2nd best in slot if they dont want to say raid =-)
EDIT: Weapons should be best in slot for all play types as well. To make this fair.
This would work, however, people would whine. Everyone thinks their money in a game entitles them to be just as good as everyone else without having to try as hard. Most, not all, of the time the people that are against raids are either inept players who have had bad experiences with easy raids in the past OR casuals that probably shouldn't really be playing MMOs (which have a high time requirement already).
As far as "not being like other MMOs" and ESO being "true to the world", these types of quotes are asinine. If the developers are using them as examples of WHY they won't have raids then I truly feel sorry for them. There were many LARGE SCALE battles in the world. Armies fight dragons, lich, whatever they needed to. This is what raids are about, challenges that encompass more than a mere group.
There will be many parts of the game that will already be inaccessible to "casuals" and the ONLY thing you do by catering to them is water down your game till you lose your true focus.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
As long as there is some tangible form of organisation required to get through group encounters. I do mean defined group roles by that, though those could be open for quick and dynamic swapping. Really can't stand any more zerging tbh.
I would think that raids, especially open world ones, could fit in perfectly with the TES lore and could form an added value though.
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Hardocres definately are not ones determining anything.
And unfortunately companies have lost the creativity and that spark that makes good games good, most of them are just rehashes on now 10-15 years old games.
But its getting off topic, no raids are not really necessary for success (or failure).
Raids are one of the worst game design decisions an MMO can have. I do not want a gear treadmill to keep me playing your game, I want fun and variety to keep me coming back. In fact, levels, raids, paid expansions, the entire "best in slot" failure, and classes are some of my most disliked things an MMORPG can have. They're tired and lazy designs that often eliminate fun in an attempt to grab cash.
Koster mostly disagree's with you. http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/08/28/do-classes-suck/
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
I'd prefer a more organic approach to character growth and advancement, instead of having some huge musclebound character being unable to ever lift a sword because of a button pushed in character creation. It's actually extremely silly when you think about it.
That depends entirely on the nature and design of the game itself. Its rather clear that you lean toward the "virtual world" end of the spectrum, which is fine if that is your choice, but calling all games garbage that do not appeal to your demographic is insulting. I am more than willing to sacrifice the muscle bound character not being able to weild a sword for things like solid balance. I prefer a solid competitive game over a virtual world. Unfortunately for you, the market seems to agree with me.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
Raids =/= gear treadmill. You can have raids and not make it a gear treadmill.
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That would be a terrible way to do this. It should be implemented from the beginning, or never put in, or else it risks alienating a target playerbase, that will
A.) never try their game
B.) will move on and never look back
And how many would do raids if gear was subpar to say crafted gear?
Not even half of them, they'd sit outside the dungeon whining on the forums that the PvE raided gear requires buffs, since it should be the best-in-slot attained gear (Don't even try to argue against this, every single game had their fair share of this bullshit).
That's why TESO cannot go to regular raiding route, as they want not to force people to raid treadmill for competitive gear.
I wasn't aware that I called all those games garbage, and I had no idea I was speaking for a demographic. I thought I made it fairly clear that it was my own personal desires and opinions I was expressing. I have plenty of games to play regardless. I do find it odd you feel a game would be hard to balance unless they have the age old class mechanics.
So I guess the only thing I find reasonable in your reply is that the games do indeed need to be based around a classless system in order for it to work well. That's kind of a no brainer though.
Sorry for insulting you by saying things that I didn't say. I'll try not to say things that I don't say and wont' say in the future, or something. Whatever you need.
You can try, at least.
But most of the raiders won't come if you do that. And if nobody's doing the raids that are there... do you really have raids at all? Or is it just dormant code....
Look at previous raids in established MMOs. An expansion comes out with a higher level cap, and new dungeons to raid. Are people flocking to the old original raids? No, because the gear there is now subpar. The entire reason for repeating them is lost. So a raid without a gear incentive is pretty much laughable. I mean, sure it's possible to have one. Just an extremely poor use of development time.
If the game had old-school time-to-levels, it wouldn't really matter: it would take at least 3-6 months before even the hardcores were ready for the 'end game content.' (Not that this would necessarily stop them from bitching about it not being there from the start, but still...)
Unfortunately, it won't. The current generation talks about taking just over a month to level-cap in (vanilla) WoW as though that was a long time...
Even vanilla wow did it right though.
There was a fun levelling experience with open world pvp, and then end game was going after Onyxia 8 hours a day in greens and a few blues. Then Getting people attuned to MC, which was beyond ridiculous for the guilds who stepped into it early. the days when T1 still had placeholder graphics.
It worked, it was stupid hard... then slowly and then quickly, the game became next level retard easy.
~~
You don't need long dungeons with trash.
A game can get away with only having complex, super hard boss mobs.
Throw a Vaelastrasz difficulty boss into Cryodiil somewhere in the open world, a Krayt dragon type mob. Something with crazy HP, difficult mechanics, something that will wipe you if you dont pay attention to every detail.
A boss that wont be killed for several months...
I sometimes play under the alias "Exposed". Don't tell anybody.
I think that kinda content is long past our gaming days. People used to live to game and forget about real life. People can only do that for so long.
It doesn't have to be subpar.
In linege 2 there was just "gear". Drops were exceptionally rare, It took time to make and the only other way to get it was to raid. The Raid bosses that dropped the gear, for the most part, took a large group.
Since part of improving your gear was to enchant it, people woudl spend a lot of effort enchanting. however, past a certain part, there was a chance you would break the gear and only get a small return in crystals which you could then put toward crafting gear.
Therefore, gear was being created and constantly removed from the world. RAiding help subsidize clans.
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What everyone--raiders and non-raiders alike--really want is appropriate reward for effort, fun things to do, accessible content and bragging rights.
You can get all of that in many different ways. Raids are just one high level activity with a higher degree of difficulty. WOW-style raids are just one way to do that and so is their reward system. But there are many other ways.
In WOW, raids are just the logical group activity to have at end-game. They are bigger, longer, badder "dungeon" instances, not unlike all the instances you have been progressing through right from level 15 or so as the main group activity. They do have a separate short-scenario PvP progression, but that has always been a secondary thing there and that particular end-game content (Wintergrasp, Told Barad) is pretty limited in time commitment required compared to their more prestigious end-game activities, raids. The bulk of their effort and content creation centers around PvE instances and especially raids.
That's not the case here. This whole game is designed from the ground up to be about RvR. It's logical that the main end-game progression activity here be different than WOWs and it is. That's not to say that PvE should be neglected and it won't. But this game will live or die based on how robust and rewarding RvR is and that's where the main focus is or should be. To expect raids of the same quality, length and complexity here is just as much a pipe dream as expecting a robust end-game RvR system in WOW. It just ain't going to happen.
You can like it or not, but that's the way it is. The best rewards, the most fun, and coolest things to brag about should all come from RvR.
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Your forum avatar being one of my top 3 favorite literary characters of all time has already endeared you to me. You don't need to keep pushing the limit of that endearment by posting such logical and well thought out posts. But, since you insist on doing just that, I simply must take the time to point out how correct you are in your statements above. (Holy crap, I'm channeling Caliburn's writing style.)
*Cough* Yeah, dude, I agree. Appropriate rewards for the effort is exactly what we're looking for, and, the game being based on RvR, it's apparent to me that that's where much of the end game's cool stuff should come from.