"Excess Funding": More content/features or faster delivery?

Sornin

Please note that I put "excess funding" in quotes because I know from experience that there is really no such thing as "excess" money when it comes to budgeting a project and making it happen. For the purpose of this thread, by "excess funding" I mean that the Kickstarter campaign manages to handily beat is funding goal, thus giving City State Entertainment more than the minimum funding they require to create Camelot Unchained.

Anyway, if the Kickstarter campaign is a smashing success, would you prefer the excess funding to go towards accelerating the project as much as possible, sticking to the basic plan that Mark and his team have in mind in order to launch the game sooner, or would you prefer more content/features be added?

Typically with Kickstarter stretch goals are made that just add more to the basic proposal, and Mark has already mentioned, I believe, that this will be what happens with Camelot Unchained. Still, an alternative would be to simply make the game more quickly by allocating more resources to the things that can be done faster with more staffing or whatever other resources are needed, rather than tacking on to the essential features. Of course, some things cannot be done any faster regardless of funds; it is not like $5M means the game will take 36 months to make while $10M means it will take 18 months, but it is not unreasonable to think twice the funding could shave a few months off.

Oh, and if you would prefer more content/features, what would you like to see? Of course, given how little we really know, it is difficult to answer since we do not know what is in or out as it stands, but give it a shot.

Arbroath

I think, considering the hype meter, that everyone would want the game to release asap. But I would be afraid of setting specific time tables and then trying ot beat them, even with added staff. I think the reason MJ has gone the KS route was to avoid time table pressures and content modifications by third parties. I'd like the game to come out when it comes out and working as predicted. 

MarkJacobs

Originally posted by Arbroath
I think, considering the hype meter, that everyone would want the game to release asap. But I would be afraid of setting specific time tables and then trying ot beat them, even with added staff. I think the reason MJ has gone the KS route was to avoid time table pressures and content modifications by third parties. I'd like the game to come out when it comes out and working as predicted. 

Me too.

If we reach any stretch goals, they will be for content, not speed. I'm happy to add more races, classes and other things to CU if our backers want to support them through the Kickstarter but I would be really uncomfortable saying "If we get another $$$, we can shorten our development cycle" or anything like that. It might be a smarter business plan from a fund raising perspective but as with other decisions I'm making, unless such decisions make CU better, I'll pass.

drakon3

I would say that there is a diminishing returns effect for throwing money at development to speed the process up.  You can speed the process up a little with some money, but at a certain point you can throw all the money in the world and it won't speed things up.

 

With that said I'd rather have more races/classes at release than anything else.

fanglo

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Originally posted by Arbroath
I think, considering the hype meter, that everyone would want the game to release asap. But I would be afraid of setting specific time tables and then trying ot beat them, even with added staff. I think the reason MJ has gone the KS route was to avoid time table pressures and content modifications by third parties. I'd like the game to come out when it comes out and working as predicted. 

Me too.

If we reach any stretch goals, they will be for content, not speed. I'm happy to add more races, classes and other things to CU if our backers want to support them through the Kickstarter but I would be really uncomfortable saying "If we get another $$$, we can shorten our development cycle" or anything like that. It might be a smarter business plan from a fund raising perspective but as with other decisions I'm making, unless such decisions make CU better, I'll pass.

I really hope either Ewok or wookie is a stretch race goal.

Nanulak

Originally posted by drakon3

I would say that there is a diminishing returns effect for throwing money at development to speed the process up.  You can speed the process up a little with some money, but at a certain point you can throw all the money in the world and it won't speed things up.

 

With that said I'd rather have more races/classes at release than anything else.

Agree.  Speed is on an exponential cost curve.  Just take the money and make it better.

meddyck

Originally posted by drakon3

With that said I'd rather have more races/classes at release than anything else.

Same for me especially for classes. Just having the trinity at release isn't enough.

Vymm

For any MMORPG player ....

 

MOAR CONTENTZ.  Never EVER, EVER faster delivery.

 

Vymm

Saevel

Originally posted by meddyck

Originally posted by drakon3

With that said I'd rather have more races/classes at release than anything else.

Same for me especially for classes. Just having the trinity at release isn't enough.

I completely agree. The plethora of classes was one of the things that made the PvP in DAoC so strategic, and thus fun.

gylnne

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Originally posted by Arbroath
I think, considering the hype meter, that everyone would want the game to release asap. But I would be afraid of setting specific time tables and then trying ot beat them, even with added staff. I think the reason MJ has gone the KS route was to avoid time table pressures and content modifications by third parties. I'd like the game to come out when it comes out and working as predicted. 

Me too.

If we reach any stretch goals, they will be for content, not speed. I'm happy to add more races, classes and other things to CU if our backers want to support them through the Kickstarter but I would be really uncomfortable saying "If we get another $$$, we can shorten our development cycle" or anything like that. It might be a smarter business plan from a fund raising perspective but as with other decisions I'm making, unless such decisions make CU better, I'll pass.

Mark you realize how long I have been waiting to hear a developer talk like this? Not only are you openly communicating with us daily but you are giving me hope of a shift back to the principles that made games fun to start with.:)

You sir are in totally different class than most developers out there and I am glad you are independent again.

MightyPit

I don't like the demanding sound of some posts here. I would like to see the basics working really really well. When the architecture of the software is well tought, it will be easier to add things later on.

Better to start with the trinity alone and put other classes later on, than coding more classes/game mechanics quick and dirty and have a really hard time rebalancing / issue fixing later on.

IMO it is much more important to have distinct classes in all three realms, than have additional classes for each realm at launch.

Events to introduce new classes can also enrich the overall game expirience. Do not want to have all at start. You will have more fun over the following months when you can anticipate further game additions

naezgul

Originally posted by drakon3

I would say that there is a diminishing returns effect for throwing money at development to speed the process up.  You can speed the process up a little with some money, but at a certain point you can throw all the money in the world and it won't speed things up.

 

With that said I'd rather have more races/classes at release than anything else.

Yes, this.  Hire more dev's so you can release 9/10 classes per realm.

im afraid of the 4/5 class on release idea. Worries me that the classes will become like the GW2 classes

naezgul

Originally posted by MightyPit

I don't like the demanding sound of some posts here. I would like to see the basics working really really well. When the architecture of the software is well tought, it will be easier to add things later on.

Better to start with the trinity alone and put other classes later on, than coding more classes/game mechanics quick and dirty and have a really hard time rebalancing / issue fixing later on.

IMO it is much more important to have distinct classes in all three realms, than have additional classes for each realm at launch.

Events to introduce new classes can also enrich the overall game expirience. Do not want to have all at start. You will have more fun over the following months when you can anticipate further game additions

Four classes daoc traditional type.....how it should be

a healer, a tank, speed class,  so what's the fourth?

i just don't see that being enough

 

infuzor

how about dps class melee or ranged

meddyck

Originally posted by naezgul

Four classes daoc traditional type.....how it should be

a healer, a tank, speed class,  so what's the fourth?

i just don't see that being enough

The last I heard Mark is shooting for healer, tank, caster at release with singer being considered as a 4th class. That leaves out such archetypes as:

• pet caster
• archer
• assassin/rogue
• hybrid melee (tank with spells)
• melee healer
• melee dps

It's possible some of those might be included as specs you can choose from the trinity classes of course.

naezgul

Originally posted by meddyck

Originally posted by naezgul

Four classes daoc traditional type.....how it should be

a healer, a tank, speed class,  so what's the fourth?

i just don't see that being enough

The last I heard Mark is shooting for healer, tank, caster at release with singer being considered as a 4th class. That leaves out such archetypes as:

• pet caster
• archer
• assassin/rogue
• hybrid melee (tank with spells)
• melee healer
• melee dps

It's possible some of those might be included as specs you can choose from the trinity classes of course.

You can't tell me you couldn't just release all those dedicated classes from start if you have coded them to go through a tree design.....

mklinic

Ultimately, I wouldn't want things sped up. I don't think throwing more devs at the project neccessarily equates to faster release that meets quality expectations. Slow and steady wins the race and all that.

I'd really just prefer the game that is being envisioned be developed without too many distractions (mark does solicit a fair amount of community comment so not considering that a 'distraction' per se). Apply any excess funding post-release for unexpected infrastructure costs, customer support, bug fixing, etc.

Just my thoughts though. I don't hate the idea of new content, but I've liked most everything that's been stated in the founding principles so, with those ideas being implemented, my content needs at lauch are largely satisfied. People have had a lot of neat ideas though and really, if something came up that was one of those 'oh that'd be cool and it'd fit so well!' ideas, then I'd certainly get behind it.

naezgul

Originally posted by mklinic

Ultimately, I wouldn't want things sped up. I don't think throwing more devs at the project neccessarily equates to faster release that meets quality expectations. Slow and steady wins the race and all that.

I'd really just prefer the game that is being envisioned be developed without too many distractions (mark does solicit a fair amount of community comment so not considering that a 'distraction' per se). Apply any excess funding post-release for unexpected infrastructure costs, customer support, bug fixing, etc.

Just my thoughts though. I don't hate the idea of new content, but I've liked most everything that's been stated in the founding principles so, with those ideas being implemented, my content needs at lauch are largely satisfied. People have had a lot of neat ideas though and really, if something came up that was one of those 'oh that'd be cool and it'd fit so well!' ideas, then I'd certainly get behind it.

I'm not advocating speeding things up for early release.

im saying either wait longer or have extra dedicated dev's to implement more classes on projected release.

i think they are going to be overfunded from Kickstarter and cannot see a better place to use those funds.

mklinic

Originally posted by naezgul

I'm not advocating speeding things up for early release.

im saying either wait longer or have extra dedicated dev's to implement more classes on projected release.

i think they are going to be overfunded from Kickstarter and cannot see a better place to use those funds.

<Insert something about counting chickens before they hatch> :P

I get your point though. I read "faster delivery" in the subject to mean sped up delivery. Still, I suppose it depends on how they exceeded their goal. I mean, if it were a few large donations, then maybe extra classes makes sense. If it is a crapton (metric system) of smaller pledges, then that money may be better served solidifying the infrastructure to handle the demand and ensuring customer service levels are adequate.

Really, any way you look at it, it'd be a great problem to have. I wish I had to figure out how to spend 'extra' money.

gylnne

Originally posted by mklinicReally, any way you look at it, it'd be a great problem to have. I wish I had to figure out how to spend 'extra' money.

lol we all need that problem.:)

Unknown

I certainly don't want faster delivery.  I played DAOC for 2 years without really itching for a patch once spellcrafting etc was released.  Granted tehre needs to be patches and updates and improvements but they do not need to be faster for me.  I'm of the opinion the original content should be rewarding and enjoyable enough that the patches only ENHANCE this enjoyment, not add a different aspect to enjoy.

 

Once of the biggest failings of MMOs today in my opinion.  Patches drop New content instead of enhacing old replayable content. 

If the game you released is boring after 3 months of play, no amount of faster patching is going to save it.

Write that down

naezgul

Originally posted by mklinic

Originally posted by naezgul

I'm not advocating speeding things up for early release.

im saying either wait longer or have extra dedicated dev's to implement more classes on projected release.

i think they are going to be overfunded from Kickstarter and cannot see a better place to use those funds.

:P

I get your point though. I read "faster delivery" in the subject to mean sped up delivery. Still, I suppose it depends on how they exceeded their goal. I mean, if it were a few large donations, then maybe extra classes makes sense. If it is a crapton (metric system) of smaller pledges, then that money may be better served solidifying the infrastructure to handle the demand and ensuring customer service levels are adequate.

Really, any way you look at it, it'd be a great problem to have. I wish I had to figure out how to spend 'extra' money.

Infrastructure is #1   Smooth running, no warping/rubber banding 

I'll take more classes with less refined graphics any day

risenbones

How about promising nothing extra if the funding is over the original goal.  The people who have "invested" already get whatever was promised in the tiers and I'd be willing to bet alot of any extra will get eaten by producing those extra rewards and kickstarters fee and various taxes.  That and as anyone who has been following MMO developments for the last few years should know by now that MMO's always cost more and take longer to make than evan industry vetrans predict.  (See Warhammer online for Mr Jacobs harsh lesson on that).  On top of that isn't Mr Jacobs mantra this time round under promise and over deliver?  Makes sence to me that if the kickstart gets extra funding then the correct responce to meet that mantra would be hey thanks everyone for the money we will now go away and make the game we promised originally watch this space to see how we are doing and we will see whats left after we meet that goal.  If people get upst over that then point them to where the under promise over deliver remark was made. 

naezgul

Originally posted by risenbones
How about promising nothing extra if the funding is over the original goal.  The people who have "invested" already get whatever was promised in the tiers and I'd be willing to bet alot of any extra will get eaten by producing those extra rewards and kickstarters fee and various taxes.  That and as anyone who has been following MMO developments for the last few years should know by now that MMO's always cost more and take longer to make than evan industry vetrans predict.  (See Warhammer online for Mr Jacobs harsh lesson on that).  On top of that isn't Mr Jacobs mantra this time round under promise and over deliver?  Makes sence to me that if the kickstart gets extra funding then the correct responce to meet that mantra would be hey thanks everyone for the money we will now go away and make the game we promised originally watch this space to see how we are doing and we will see whats left after we meet that goal.  If people get upst over that then point them to where the under promise over deliver remark was made. 

Not asking to promise anything...just saying where I think extra money should be spent.

On a side note, personally I think every penny of contributions and what Mark has pledged should be spent on the game....

Heartspark

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

Originally posted by Arbroath
I think, considering the hype meter, that everyone would want the game to release asap. But I would be afraid of setting specific time tables and then trying ot beat them, even with added staff. I think the reason MJ has gone the KS route was to avoid time table pressures and content modifications by third parties. I'd like the game to come out when it comes out and working as predicted. 

Me too.

If we reach any stretch goals, they will be for content, not speed. I'm happy to add more races, classes and other things to CU if our backers want to support them through the Kickstarter but I would be really uncomfortable saying "If we get another $$$, we can shorten our development cycle" or anything like that. It might be a smarter business plan from a fund raising perspective but as with other decisions I'm making, unless such decisions make CU better, I'll pass.

..more content as in a 4th realm? :P

RealLifeGobbo

I do like idea of spending the same amount of time, but adding more stuff to it.  This could be anything from more models, skins, abilities, classes, visual effects, sounds, in-game events, more stuff to create, etc.