Subs dont work for mmos today particularly because the games quite frankly just arent good. No one is going to pay a monthly fee for something that isnt good lol. I mean theres no need for any type of advanced long drawn out explanation. Thats what it is.
I think you have the right of it for the most part.
Though I wouldn't say it isn't because they aren't good. I would say it is because they "aren't good enough".
People will play them but there isn't a lot of reason to keep playing them for the length of time that they used to play them.
On top of that there is an influx of people who aren't looking to stay in these games for years and are content to play a few months and try something hew.
Sounds about right, Sov. That would explain why the games with 5-10 years of expansions under their belt seem to be able to retain players better than newer titles. When you subscribe to WOW, EQ, EVE, etc you are getting years of content, an extensive existing community and a wealth of resources built over the years to turn to if need be. Players quickly see the value they are getting compared to a newly released MMO.
And if something is good people will pay.
If they see value in it.
It's always been this way.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
its not that subs dont work cause they do and give a more solid foundation for devs finaces, but companys want the fast buck these days and thats what F2P is a fast buck through the cash shop with new games and after the intial push is done and they make back thier money they can drop the maintence to a minuim and start work on next cash grab.
because of this more and more companies are going over to this system because it works for them very well, it also means we get a giant pile of MMOs put out each year none of which are made with real care.
so its not that subs dont work its simply that cash grab or F2P as they like to pretend to call it simply makes more money faster with less effert
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
its not that subs dont work cause they do and give a more solid foundation for devs finaces, but companys want the fast buck these days and thats what F2P is a fast buck through the cash shop with new games and after the intial push is done and they make back thier money they can drop the maintence to a minuim and start work on next cash grab.
because of this more and more companies are going over to this system because it works for them very well, it also means we get a giant pile of MMOs put out each year none of which are made with real care.
so its not that subs dont work its simply that cash grab or F2P as they like to pretend to call it simply makes more money faster with less effert
You've actually got it backwards.
Subscription = the fast buck. You basically require people to pay for your game before they even get a chance to play it. It's basically a 'trust me, it'll be good enough to keep you playing' type of business model. Pay first, ask questions later.
Free 2 Play = the long haul. You get literally nothing right away. Your game (and your bank account)'s lives depend on whether or not your game is good enough for people to play it. If people pick it up, and it sucks, they won't spend money on your cash shop. Period. That's one of the reasons this model is so popular now, it's a strong incentive to make a good game, because you are giving players a free play of your game before they drop money on it.
Furthermore, subscriptions now tend to yield much less revenue over time. Multiple examples have shown that F2P tends to yield more, or starting w/ subs first and THEN switching to F2P can potentially yield the most.
its not that subs dont work cause they do and give a more solid foundation for devs finaces, but companys want the fast buck these days and thats what F2P is a fast buck through the cash shop with new games and after the intial push is done and they make back thier money they can drop the maintence to a minuim and start work on next cash grab.
because of this more and more companies are going over to this system because it works for them very well, it also means we get a giant pile of MMOs put out each year none of which are made with real care.
so its not that subs dont work its simply that cash grab or F2P as they like to pretend to call it simply makes more money faster with less effert
You've actually got it backwards.
Subscription = the fast buck. You basically require people to pay for your game before they even get a chance to play it. It's basically a 'trust me, it'll be good enough to keep you playing' type of business model. Pay first, ask questions later.
Free 2 Play = the long haul. You get literally nothing right away. Your game (and your bank account)'s lives depend on whether or not your game is good enough for people to play it. If people pick it up, and it sucks, they won't spend money on your cash shop. Period. That's one of the reasons this model is so popular now, it's a strong incentive to make a good game, because you are giving players a free play of your game before they drop money on it.
Furthermore, subscriptions now tend to yield much less revenue over time. Multiple examples have shown that F2P tends to yield more, or starting w/ subs first and THEN switching to F2P can potentially yield the most.
umm no i dont have it backwards the first thing people tend to do in F2P games is hit the cash shop. also the monthly income is not balenced it wavers in numbers alot and is not reliable .
where as P2P the amount made each month is normaly the same with not a lot of variation giveing a better idea for dev teams to know how much they can spend each month.
and can i get a qoute from a reliable source for that last bit since most percentages are made up anyway.
also since when have p2p made you pay them before you get a chance to try it, last i checked all MMOs came with a free month trial, or are you refering to the box price since you know that would be silly since last time i checked we paid for single player games before playing them or should we ask to get those for free to?
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Blizz did not use some form of mind control. The players created the desire and the market for the way things have become and the players will dictate what comes in the future as well. If consumer's money goes this way ----> that's what's going to happen.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
its not that subs dont work cause they do and give a more solid foundation for devs finaces, but companys want the fast buck these days and thats what F2P is a fast buck through the cash shop with new games and after the intial push is done and they make back thier money they can drop the maintence to a minuim and start work on next cash grab.
because of this more and more companies are going over to this system because it works for them very well, it also means we get a giant pile of MMOs put out each year none of which are made with real care.
so its not that subs dont work its simply that cash grab or F2P as they like to pretend to call it simply makes more money faster with less effert
You've actually got it backwards.
Subscription = the fast buck. You basically require people to pay for your game before they even get a chance to play it. It's basically a 'trust me, it'll be good enough to keep you playing' type of business model. Pay first, ask questions later.
Free 2 Play = the long haul. You get literally nothing right away. Your game (and your bank account)'s lives depend on whether or not your game is good enough for people to play it. If people pick it up, and it sucks, they won't spend money on your cash shop. Period. That's one of the reasons this model is so popular now, it's a strong incentive to make a good game, because you are giving players a free play of your game before they drop money on it.
Furthermore, subscriptions now tend to yield much less revenue over time. Multiple examples have shown that F2P tends to yield more, or starting w/ subs first and THEN switching to F2P can potentially yield the most.
umm no i dont have it backwards the first thing people tend to do in F2P games is hit the cash shop. also the monthly income is not balenced it wavers in numbers alot and is not reliable .
where as P2P the amount made each month is normaly the same with not a lot of variation giveing a better idea for dev teams to know how much they can spend each month.
and can i get a qoute from a reliable source for that last bit since most percentages are made up anyway.
also since when have p2p made you pay them before you get a chance to try it, last i checked all MMOs came with a free month trial, or are you refering to the box price since you know that would be silly since last time i checked we paid for single player games before playing them or should we ask to get those for free to?
Can you link the sources you're basing that on?
Subscription, especially since it is commonly coupled with a client purchase IS the fast buck. It is getting money from the user before they've even played the game.
"the first thing people tend to do in F2P games is hit the cash shop"
Actually, cash shop income for most games doesn't really start happening until the user has played for a while and has opted to buy something extra for the game. That is why a lot of F2P MMOs will allow purchases prior to release with refunds of purchased points spent if there is a wipe or major change.
"also since when have p2p made you pay them before you get a chance to try it, last i checked all MMOs came with a free month trial"
In the past year, several subscription MMOs have shifted to more extended trials, but that has definitely not been the norm. Actually, many subscription MMOs don't offer a trial until several months after release. As for betas, contrary to what the average beta whore may believe, most people won't touch a beta and will not try a game until after release. And, yes, singleplayer games have a box fee, too... they also offer demos.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Your argument is weak if that. I don't have any respect for your banter. I feel guilty for responding to your thread at all.
P2P does work for some gamers. Just like any other service, if you feel the cost is warranted then you will pay. Besides the obvious reason of people declining P2P (which is P2P means paying more money), another good reason might be that the games that have released P2P did not bring enough to the table to warrant the cost. That is why they lost subs and why the transitioned to a different model, not because WoW made us hate P2P.
People want a unique experience with the bells and whistles, they are willing to pay for that.
What made me rage was the whole post but specifically here:
"Oh yes I know I did say for one reason and it was Blizz fault. Well if you think about it all these other reasons can be summed up to being Blizz fault also. They help contribute to the down fall of MMO gaming with WoW."
In these three sentences you provide no substance what so ever.
I just ask that you think before speaking, forever and always. Or GTFO.
Sorry you feel this way dude. But it is Blizz fault because they lead and all other games follow. I want a new leader a inovated one.
so who made them leader? i never saw blizzard claiming "we are the leaders of mmorpg genre, bow down to us". people create crap that doesn't go in par with an old game with shitty graphicsoutdated gameplay and you complain that is the fault of the old game? let's see the scenario below :
student 1 : damn dude we came last in exam again.
student 2: well that is obvious, we only got 40% correct.
student 1: wtf are you talking about man? you are saying it was our fault?
student 2: dude we only scored 40%, that guy who came 1st scored over 90%. it is logical we would come last.
student 1: no man it is not our fault we only scored 40%, it is that guys fault he scored over 90%, fuck him. it's all his fault.
can you guess which one of them is you?
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Look back at MMO’s in the beginning, and I am mainly talking about pre-Wow games like UO, EQ and SWG. You had vast open worlds to explore, you had furnishable player housing, you had boatloads of craftables and resource gathering. You could setup vendors and sell things to players. People gained reputations as notorious PK’s or expert crafters that people actively avoided or went in search of. Everyone was different and you never knew what each play session was going to bring your way.
Fast forward to today. Loads of free to play, small instances, player housing is an afterthought if implemented. Every char looks like every other char of his class and the only interaction that is needed is to group for a raid or quick quest. There is no need to know who anyone on the server is and no way for me to distinguish myself from others. Today’s MMO’s are more like arcade games designed to get to the highest level rather than sparking imagination and social interaction.
I do agree that WoW was the catalyst. When it made crazy money all others followed suit and tried to make theme parks thinking they found a magic money-making formula. Sadly, they lost site of what made us continue playing MMO’s. They stopped making games where individuals could excel based on skill and research and made games where everyone could be the exact same. This is why games like Eve continue to grow while Rift and Tera continue to shrink.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Your argument is weak if that. I don't have any respect for your banter. I feel guilty for responding to your thread at all.
P2P does work for some gamers. Just like any other service, if you feel the cost is warranted then you will pay. Besides the obvious reason of people declining P2P (which is P2P means paying more money), another good reason might be that the games that have released P2P did not bring enough to the table to warrant the cost. That is why they lost subs and why the transitioned to a different model, not because WoW made us hate P2P.
People want a unique experience with the bells and whistles, they are willing to pay for that.
What made me rage was the whole post but specifically here:
"Oh yes I know I did say for one reason and it was Blizz fault. Well if you think about it all these other reasons can be summed up to being Blizz fault also. They help contribute to the down fall of MMO gaming with WoW."
In these three sentences you provide no substance what so ever.
I just ask that you think before speaking, forever and always. Or GTFO.
Sorry you feel this way dude. But it is Blizz fault because they lead and all other games follow. I want a new leader a inovated one.
so who made them leader? i never saw blizzard claiming "we are the leaders of mmorpg genre, bow down to us". people create crap that doesn't go in par with an old game with shitty graphicsoutdated gameplay and you complain that is the fault of the old game? let's see the scenario below :
student 1 : damn dude we came last in exam again.
student 2: well that is obvious, we only got 40% correct.
student 1: wtf are you talking about man? you are saying it was our fault?
student 2: dude we only scored 40%, that guy who came 1st scored over 90%. it is logical we would come last.
student 1: no man it is not our fault we only scored 40%, it is that guys fault he scored over 90%, fuck him. it's all his fault.
can you guess which one of them is you?
I dont think you understand the whole thread in general. Take a look at my next responce to the next qoute that I will reply to. See you there.
Look back at MMO’s in the beginning, and I am mainly talking about pre-Wow games like UO, EQ and SWG. You had vast open worlds to explore, you had furnishable player housing, you had boatloads of craftables and resource gathering. You could setup vendors and sell things to players. People gained reputations as notorious PK’s or expert crafters that people actively avoided or went in search of. Everyone was different and you never knew what each play session was going to bring your way.
Fast forward to today. Loads of free to play, small instances, player housing is an afterthought if implemented. Every char looks like every other char of his class and the only interaction that is needed is to group for a raid or quick quest. There is no need to know who anyone on the server is and no way for me to distinguish myself from others. Today’s MMO’s are more like arcade games designed to get to the highest level rather than sparking imagination and social interaction.
I do agree that WoW was the catalyst. When it made crazy money all others followed suit and tried to make theme parks thinking they found a magic money-making formula. Sadly, they lost site of what made us continue playing MMO’s. They stopped making games where individuals could excel based on skill and research and made games where everyone could be the exact same. This is why games like Eve continue to grow while Rift and Tera continue to shrink.
This is 100 % true ty for your inpute.
@ jesteralways do you understand the purpose of the thread now? I hope so glade I can help you.
IMO WoW was not a fluke, at least not in the way everyone thinks. I'll tell you what WoW was. WoW was a well crafted game made by artists, programmers, producers, QA folks who were all gamers and also very good at what they do. There was a lot of time and effort put into making everything they did the best it could be made to make the game enjoyable by the people who played it. Everything was made to fit in Azeroth and it was also made to work with each other. Blizzard was expecting it to be successful and the problems at launch were not because things went poorly, quite the opposite happened. They did not build it big enough, could not handle the login traffic (the login dance is awesome). The timing of the game is moot as WoW came out within 2 weeks of EQ2 and swamped it by the end of the quarter.
WoW clones fail because developers just copy for the sake of copying but without understanding how and why things fit together in WoW. A secondary reason for the recent less than stellar quality of games it hard to understand unless you worked in the industry at or near the beginning of the MMO genre. Back then not every person had a degrees in Video or MMO game design or some other piece of paper that said you know what you are doing. We were all gamers for the most part, whether it was muds or pnp games or any other type of game, we wanted it to succeed cause we wanted to play it ourselves. Now 15+ years experience means you’re out of touch or not in with the hip gaming crowd. The gaming companies became businesses and degrees and things of that ilk replaced passion and talent, and game making went from being a well crafted art to being a business with schedules and time lines and "new" ideas .... more often than not a directive to make it just like WoW regardless on if it was a good thing to do for the game. The phrase in some game companies became imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I know many a qa tester after one year demand that they become a producer as they know everything. Trust me the game industry can be far tougher in house than the players are out of house.
Lastly f2p vs. p2p or whatever model you can think of ... it has absolutely nothing to do with quality of the game (no one intentionally makes a lower quality game, explanation to follow), and is all about the $$$. It is very much like investing in the stock market, with p2p being the low yield but steady money makers and the f2p games being the high yield/high risk, and the b2p games being the medium to high yield medium risk games. The only reason f2p and b2p games work is that 0.1 to 2% of a player base that spends $$ sometimes tens of thousands of dollars a month. I think the most I have heard spent in a year is $250k, but I bet there is a higher amount somewhere. Now quality is lower on some games because the longer it stays in production the more it costs and the bottom line is to make money, so bugs are not fixed and the game is shipped early.
TL;DR - WoW was not a fluke. Games are different today as a different group of people are making games and for different reasons.
Comments
And if something is good people will pay.
If they see value in it.
It's always been this way.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
its not that subs dont work cause they do and give a more solid foundation for devs finaces, but companys want the fast buck these days and thats what F2P is a fast buck through the cash shop with new games and after the intial push is done and they make back thier money they can drop the maintence to a minuim and start work on next cash grab.
because of this more and more companies are going over to this system because it works for them very well, it also means we get a giant pile of MMOs put out each year none of which are made with real care.
so its not that subs dont work its simply that cash grab or F2P as they like to pretend to call it simply makes more money faster with less effert
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
You've actually got it backwards.
Subscription = the fast buck. You basically require people to pay for your game before they even get a chance to play it. It's basically a 'trust me, it'll be good enough to keep you playing' type of business model. Pay first, ask questions later.
Free 2 Play = the long haul. You get literally nothing right away. Your game (and your bank account)'s lives depend on whether or not your game is good enough for people to play it. If people pick it up, and it sucks, they won't spend money on your cash shop. Period. That's one of the reasons this model is so popular now, it's a strong incentive to make a good game, because you are giving players a free play of your game before they drop money on it.
Furthermore, subscriptions now tend to yield much less revenue over time. Multiple examples have shown that F2P tends to yield more, or starting w/ subs first and THEN switching to F2P can potentially yield the most.
umm no i dont have it backwards the first thing people tend to do in F2P games is hit the cash shop. also the monthly income is not balenced it wavers in numbers alot and is not reliable .
where as P2P the amount made each month is normaly the same with not a lot of variation giveing a better idea for dev teams to know how much they can spend each month.
and can i get a qoute from a reliable source for that last bit since most percentages are made up anyway.
also since when have p2p made you pay them before you get a chance to try it, last i checked all MMOs came with a free month trial, or are you refering to the box price since you know that would be silly since last time i checked we paid for single player games before playing them or should we ask to get those for free to?
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
That is because of competition. If i can have fun for free, why pay a sub? It is not absolute "worth" but relative "worth" in the market.
Thats it in a nutshell.
except many people, if not most, will play the game that they find the most fun regardless of payment model
Blizz's 'fault'?
Blizz did not use some form of mind control. The players created the desire and the market for the way things have become and the players will dictate what comes in the future as well. If consumer's money goes this way ----> that's what's going to happen.
Can you link the sources you're basing that on?
Subscription, especially since it is commonly coupled with a client purchase IS the fast buck. It is getting money from the user before they've even played the game.
"the first thing people tend to do in F2P games is hit the cash shop"
Actually, cash shop income for most games doesn't really start happening until the user has played for a while and has opted to buy something extra for the game. That is why a lot of F2P MMOs will allow purchases prior to release with refunds of purchased points spent if there is a wipe or major change.
"also since when have p2p made you pay them before you get a chance to try it, last i checked all MMOs came with a free month trial"
In the past year, several subscription MMOs have shifted to more extended trials, but that has definitely not been the norm. Actually, many subscription MMOs don't offer a trial until several months after release. As for betas, contrary to what the average beta whore may believe, most people won't touch a beta and will not try a game until after release. And, yes, singleplayer games have a box fee, too... they also offer demos.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
so who made them leader? i never saw blizzard claiming "we are the leaders of mmorpg genre, bow down to us". people create crap that doesn't go in par with an old game with shitty graphicsoutdated gameplay and you complain that is the fault of the old game? let's see the scenario below :
student 1 : damn dude we came last in exam again.
student 2: well that is obvious, we only got 40% correct.
student 1: wtf are you talking about man? you are saying it was our fault?
student 2: dude we only scored 40%, that guy who came 1st scored over 90%. it is logical we would come last.
student 1: no man it is not our fault we only scored 40%, it is that guys fault he scored over 90%, fuck him. it's all his fault.
can you guess which one of them is you?
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Look back at MMO’s in the beginning, and I am mainly talking about pre-Wow games like UO, EQ and SWG. You had vast open worlds to explore, you had furnishable player housing, you had boatloads of craftables and resource gathering. You could setup vendors and sell things to players. People gained reputations as notorious PK’s or expert crafters that people actively avoided or went in search of. Everyone was different and you never knew what each play session was going to bring your way.
Fast forward to today. Loads of free to play, small instances, player housing is an afterthought if implemented. Every char looks like every other char of his class and the only interaction that is needed is to group for a raid or quick quest. There is no need to know who anyone on the server is and no way for me to distinguish myself from others. Today’s MMO’s are more like arcade games designed to get to the highest level rather than sparking imagination and social interaction.
I do agree that WoW was the catalyst. When it made crazy money all others followed suit and tried to make theme parks thinking they found a magic money-making formula. Sadly, they lost site of what made us continue playing MMO’s. They stopped making games where individuals could excel based on skill and research and made games where everyone could be the exact same. This is why games like Eve continue to grow while Rift and Tera continue to shrink.
I dont think you understand the whole thread in general. Take a look at my next responce to the next qoute that I will reply to. See you there.
This is 100 % true ty for your inpute.
@ jesteralways do you understand the purpose of the thread now? I hope so glade I can help you.
IMO WoW was not a fluke, at least not in the way everyone thinks. I'll tell you what WoW was. WoW was a well crafted game made by artists, programmers, producers, QA folks who were all gamers and also very good at what they do. There was a lot of time and effort put into making everything they did the best it could be made to make the game enjoyable by the people who played it. Everything was made to fit in Azeroth and it was also made to work with each other. Blizzard was expecting it to be successful and the problems at launch were not because things went poorly, quite the opposite happened. They did not build it big enough, could not handle the login traffic (the login dance is awesome). The timing of the game is moot as WoW came out within 2 weeks of EQ2 and swamped it by the end of the quarter.
WoW clones fail because developers just copy for the sake of copying but without understanding how and why things fit together in WoW. A secondary reason for the recent less than stellar quality of games it hard to understand unless you worked in the industry at or near the beginning of the MMO genre. Back then not every person had a degrees in Video or MMO game design or some other piece of paper that said you know what you are doing. We were all gamers for the most part, whether it was muds or pnp games or any other type of game, we wanted it to succeed cause we wanted to play it ourselves. Now 15+ years experience means you’re out of touch or not in with the hip gaming crowd. The gaming companies became businesses and degrees and things of that ilk replaced passion and talent, and game making went from being a well crafted art to being a business with schedules and time lines and "new" ideas .... more often than not a directive to make it just like WoW regardless on if it was a good thing to do for the game. The phrase in some game companies became imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I know many a qa tester after one year demand that they become a producer as they know everything. Trust me the game industry can be far tougher in house than the players are out of house.
Lastly f2p vs. p2p or whatever model you can think of ... it has absolutely nothing to do with quality of the game (no one intentionally makes a lower quality game, explanation to follow), and is all about the $$$. It is very much like investing in the stock market, with p2p being the low yield but steady money makers and the f2p games being the high yield/high risk, and the b2p games being the medium to high yield medium risk games. The only reason f2p and b2p games work is that 0.1 to 2% of a player base that spends $$ sometimes tens of thousands of dollars a month. I think the most I have heard spent in a year is $250k, but I bet there is a higher amount somewhere. Now quality is lower on some games because the longer it stays in production the more it costs and the bottom line is to make money, so bugs are not fixed and the game is shipped early.
TL;DR - WoW was not a fluke. Games are different today as a different group of people are making games and for different reasons.