"Kickstarter's clients ARE the people who pledge money. If Kickstarter didn't ensure that people weren't getting scammed, people wouldn't use it, and then Kickstarter wouldn't make any money. There is a contract, and it gives a very strict outline of what is required from the developer." - DavisFlight
False. Kickstarter collects money from the project starter, not the backer.
"If a project fails, no one gets charged." - DavisFlight
"You can't get "scammed" out of money. The person using Kickstarter is legally obligated to produce a product and use the money they get exactly for what they said they would." - DavisFlight
If a project fails after funding has completed, no one gets their money back. The developer is obligated to genuinely try to create the game, they don't have to actually make it.
"It's astounding how many people don't even understand the basic idea of Kickstarter." - DavisFlight
Yes. Yes, it is.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I never tell anyone else what to do with thier money.
However, I think you mis-understand the basic purpose of Kickstarters. When you GIVE money to a Kickstarter you are NOT purchasing a product. You are making a GIFT toward an individual or group trying to produce a creative work. You may be given some sort of "thank you" item in return for your gift...but it is NOT a purchase and you really shouldn't expect anything back.
Kickstarter is a way for small independant artists or groups to secure funding for thier projects that aren't able to secure funding through traditional means. This means a greater diversity of products will get produced and there will be a greater diversity of producers. In the macro sense, this is good for consumers particularly ones with niche tastes, as it creates greater competition in the market and it means ALL producers, even big ones have to put out better products and treat their customers better.
In the micro sense, smaller independant producers tend to have a closer relationship with thier individual customers because those individual customers make up a larger portion of thier revenue base, they are inclined to treat them better then a larger company.
Many people are disinclined to pre-order from many of the large producers because they've been burned too many times by those very same producers. They've noted a tendency from them to produce sub-standard products which are sold mostly on thier marketing budgets and hype.
I personaly won't pre-order any titles from the big game producers for that very reason. However I will happily pre-order from some (non MMO) game producers because I have been impressed with the quality of products produced by them and the quality of service I have recieved in the past. Therefore they have already established a good reputation with me. I would do the same if any big producers could meet that threshold...so far none have.
In terms of Kickstarters, I rarely participate them....but I occasionaly might be willing to contribute a few dollars to a project that I think is really worthy.....especialy if the principles involved have a past reputation for solid dealings and high quality work. As with anything else, one will see better results if one does some homework on who one chooses to hand money. YMMV.
People get so much flak for pre ordering a MMO for merely 50 to 60 bucks while people pledge hundreds of dollars of their hard earned money on kickstarters. How is it any different? all you got is word of the developers and big promises. You don't get to participate before hand or test anything before handing out your hard earned cash.
Atleast, people who pre order have enough videos, previews and beta testing to make up their mind while pledgers just go by someone's word alone and promises which might be as real as pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Can anyone help me understand why former is bad and looked down upon in general while later is ok and encouraged?
While I have kickstarted 2 games so far. 1 successfully and the other not so much. I did both because I wanted to see their game come to life. I also preorder the hell out of a game I look forward to. I see nothing wrong with either but I do have a problem with someone kickstarting a game and then being hyporcritical towards me because I bought a $200 Neverwinter Founders pack.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?
In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.
In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.
If this was true then the kicstarter project wouldn't offer all thsoe incentives. Because they do offer all thsoe incentives they are in fact eliciting the same response as someone who preorders.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?
In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.
In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.
you pay X amount before the game is made. The developer shares his vision with you. You interpret that vision in your own ways. THe game launches with the developer vision and not exactly how you envisioned the idea he shared with you. You end up with a game you dont like. You lost your money.
Kickstarter is a much riskier way to invest in games as a consumer. Both kickstarter and pre purchasing are bad. But if im doing one of the two i'd prepurchase something that i already tried the beta or at least seen enough content before making the move.
When you pre-order, you are buying into a vision of a game that you (the community) has little say in. The game is already made and will release despite any concerns the community has voiced. Most importantly, the game will have had the hands of publishers all over, trying to monetize every aspect of the game. In the end, it really isnt worth it to pre-order. You take all the risk with absolutely no expectation of return on pre-oredering. The exception are some of these pre-orders on steam where you get a free game. The Bioshock infinite preorder gave a free copy of Xcom. That is a damn good reason to preorder.
A kickstarter project is pretty much the opposite. The community has a say in the development of the game. The funding of the kickstarter project relies solely upon the demand for the game being sold. Furthermore, it cuts out the publishers and thier influence on the game, making it possible to get games made for specific audiences (niche markets) that traditional publishers don't see as a viable investment. Furthermore, you can see a pledge on Kickstarter as an investment. The return you make on that investment is potentially quite large. Without kickstarter we wouldnt be getting the upcoming Wasteland, the new Shadowrun or the new Torment. That alone is pretty huge IMO.
Any idiot knows the simplest way to cover yourself when "backing" something on kickstarter is to just pay on your credit card. If they don't produce the game you just dispute the charge, get your money back, and move on.
Seriously...not that hard.
**edit**
Verbage, meant to put produce the game rather than fund.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
I love how almost everyone here is putting kickstarter down, but almost everyone here has bitched about the perfect MMO that should be made cause everything shit, and continues to be shit. So if this project appeared on kickstarter, it should not be funded, right? We shouldn't take that chance, sicne we all know it will never happen, it's a lie, and if it does it's going to suck.
Just like Wasteland 2 is ABSOLUTELY going to be horrendous, even with Brian Fargo at the head. Best not to ever risk it.
He's the real problem with both sides, it's a risk, but the problem with a preorder is you usually know what you are getting into. This was not the case that cause the video to be spawned that was linked in the first post. What happened there was pretty much lies. All of it.
I used preodering myself way back in the day before digital distribution, I bet half of you don't even know a world without it, because I live in a small ass town and a store could *gasp* run out of copies. The incentives on preorders at this point is bullshit. Just give me the game, and if some gun was supposed to be in the game, then put it in the god damned game, not just because I bought it from amazon.
It's a risk on all sides, and hell you can make the arguement that buying ANYTHING is a risk.
The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.
Any idiot knows the simplest way to cover yourself when "backing" something on kickstarter is to just pay on your credit card. If they don't fund you just dispute the charge, get your money back, and move on.
Seriously...not that hard.
If it doesn't fund, you don't get charged in the first place.
When you pre-order, you are buying into a vision of a game that you (the community) has little say in.
No....
You're buying the completed version of the game. By the time you see what you're pre-ordering the game is basically set and finished (minus bug squashing).
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
I love how almost everyone here is putting kickstarter down, but almost everyone here has bitched about the perfect MMO that should be made cause everything shit, and continues to be shit. So if this project appeared on kickstarter, it should not be funded, right? We shouldn't take that chance, sicne we all know it will never happen, it's a lie, and if it does it's going to suck.
Just like Wasteland 2 is ABSOLUTELY going to be horrendous, even with Brian Fargo at the head. Best not to ever risk it.
He's the real problem with both sides, it's a risk, but the problem with a preorder is you usually know what you are getting into. This was not the case that cause the video to be spawned that was linked in the first post. What happened there was pretty much lies. All of it.
I used preodering myself way back in the day before digital distribution, I bet half of you don't even know a world without it, because I live in a small ass town and a store could *gasp* run out of copies. The incentives on preorders at this point is bullshit. Just give me the game, and if some gun was supposed to be in the game, then put it in the god damned game, not just because I bought it from amazon.
It's a risk on all sides, and hell you can make the arguement that buying ANYTHING is a risk.
That's EXACTLY it.
Pre-ordering has no meaning any longer, at all. Unless you want the "bonuses" that they're offering there's no risk of them not having enough for you to buy (which was the main reason pre-ordering began back in the day).
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Pre-ordering has no meaning any longer, at all. Unless you want the "bonuses" that they're offering there's no risk of them not having enough for you to buy (which was the main reason pre-ordering began back in the day).
Which is why the name has changed several times over the past few years - to keep that pre-publish income rolling in.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I love how almost everyone here is putting kickstarter down, but almost everyone here has bitched about the perfect MMO that should be made cause everything shit, and continues to be shit. So if this project appeared on kickstarter, it should not be funded, right? We shouldn't take that chance, sicne we all know it will never happen, it's a lie, and if it does it's going to suck.
Just like Wasteland 2 is ABSOLUTELY going to be horrendous, even with Brian Fargo at the head. Best not to ever risk it.
He's the real problem with both sides, it's a risk, but the problem with a preorder is you usually know what you are getting into. This was not the case that cause the video to be spawned that was linked in the first post. What happened there was pretty much lies. All of it.
I used preodering myself way back in the day before digital distribution, I bet half of you don't even know a world without it, because I live in a small ass town and a store could *gasp* run out of copies. The incentives on preorders at this point is bullshit. Just give me the game, and if some gun was supposed to be in the game, then put it in the god damned game, not just because I bought it from amazon.
It's a risk on all sides, and hell you can make the arguement that buying ANYTHING is a risk.
Yes buying anything is risky but what is more risky? placing a pre order for mere 50 to 60 bucks after watching lots of previews and video footage, participating in beta and testing the game before hand or spending hundered of dollars on mere promises of some guy who has his way with words and want to sell you a bridge to MMO utopia?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
I love how almost everyone here is putting kickstarter down, but almost everyone here has bitched about the perfect MMO that should be made cause everything shit, and continues to be shit. So if this project appeared on kickstarter, it should not be funded, right? We shouldn't take that chance, sicne we all know it will never happen, it's a lie, and if it does it's going to suck.
Just like Wasteland 2 is ABSOLUTELY going to be horrendous, even with Brian Fargo at the head. Best not to ever risk it.
He's the real problem with both sides, it's a risk, but the problem with a preorder is you usually know what you are getting into. This was not the case that cause the video to be spawned that was linked in the first post. What happened there was pretty much lies. All of it.
I used preodering myself way back in the day before digital distribution, I bet half of you don't even know a world without it, because I live in a small ass town and a store could *gasp* run out of copies. The incentives on preorders at this point is bullshit. Just give me the game, and if some gun was supposed to be in the game, then put it in the god damned game, not just because I bought it from amazon.
It's a risk on all sides, and hell you can make the arguement that buying ANYTHING is a risk.
Yes buying anything is risky but what is more risky? placing a pre order for mere 50 to 60 bucks after watching lots of previews and video footage, participating in beta and testing the game before hand or spending hundered of dollars on mere promises of some guy who has his way with words and want to sell you a bridge to MMO utopia?
You mean Aliens Colonial Marines? Bam! In your overly pompous face!
The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.
As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).
There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.
and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).
There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.
and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?
In theory, investing in a startup offests the risks of putting in that money against the potential rewards of even more money coming back if the startup is successful. Kickstarter doesn't (usually) buy you an actual share in the project's success.
That difference isn't enough to deter me from putting some money into kickstart projects that interest me, but I can understand why others might feel differently.
What people don't understand is that Kickstarter is not meant to fund a startup, kickstarter prevents any kind of startup funding from happening on their service. Kickstarter is only meant for a project to project basis.
As for looking at funding projects on kickstarter, it isn't much of funding as much as supporting a project. Kickstarter is placed almost at the preparation stage of a project, and not meant to fund the project for the entire life line. If a kickstarter project can use those raised money for the entire project, they must have done ridiculous well on kickstarter.
Kickstarter is built for what it is suppose to do, to kickstart a project, not to fund a project. There are other platforms for that.
As for the OP, one is from the consumer's POV, one from an investor's POV, you can't compare them.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Haha are you serious? You don't see the difference?
In a pre order, you're spending extra money on a game that is already finished. Content gets REMOVED from the game and put in as pre order packages and store exclusives, making you pay more money for a good that should be included in the base game.
In a Kickstarter, THE GAME IS NOT YET MADE. Without the money from Kickstarter, the game DOESN'T EXIST and WILL NOT BE MADE. You are paying to produce a game that publishers won't touch, and you get a ton of extra perks usually.
You get the same perks with pledging as like with normal pre-orders.
Yes... the difference with Pre-Orders is that there actually is a game that is (mostly) finished.
The only person I have ever pledged for, is for Star Citizen, as Robert actually still has a clean track record.
Both Mark Jacobs and Richard Garriott have developed overinflated EGO's over the years and have turned themselves into the joke of the game industry. Hence, why they resort to Kickstarter all the sudden.... as it's the only way they will be able to get any money anymore.
People get so much flak for pre ordering a MMO for merely 50 to 60 bucks while people pledge hundreds of dollars of their hard earned money on kickstarters. How is it any different? all you got is word of the developers and big promises. You don't get to participate before hand or test anything before handing out your hard earned cash.
Atleast, people who pre order have enough videos, previews and beta testing to make up their mind while pledgers just go by someone's word alone and promises which might be as real as pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Can anyone help me understand why former is bad and looked down upon in general while later is ok and encouraged?
I think its mainly people donate to Kickstarter projects due to the type of games being made that publishers are too much of pansy's to make cause it isn't labeled Call Of Duty... people want different things, people want new ideas, not the same ol crap a publisher continues to throw out at consumers and that's why people at 3 different studios this week either shut down completely (Lucasarts) and people lost their jobs due to the greed or lackluster games being pushed to the public.
There may be develoepers on Kickstarter who might not deliver but the ones that do bring something new to the table that gets us hard about gaming again. And that is a good thing.
As others have said, Kickstarter is equivalent of begging for money to start your development. They may or may not even make it to development (Most don't). You have to assume they will fail - just figure you are giving your money away to a beggar on the street because that is probably as much return as you will get (putting it bluntly).
There is a reason these projects went to get funding this way over the traditional way.
and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?
In theory, investing in a startup offests the risks of putting in that money against the potential rewards of even more money coming back if the startup is successful. Kickstarter doesn't (usually) buy you an actual share in the project's success.
That difference isn't enough to deter me from putting some money into kickstart projects that interest me, but I can understand why others might feel differently.
Well of course that's true. And the the amounts that people put into kickstarter are pretty paltry when compared to the larger sums of investing in a starting business.
I just don't see the big deal in the differences between one's payoff.
He says that it's like begging for money for a project that might not even make it to completion. So it's ok for companies to "beg' for money for their projects as long as the investor gets a financial benefit? It's better to put far larger sums into the startup that the investor could very well lose over much smaller sums which the investor could very well lose.
It's still pretty much the same thing: company says that if you invest you get "X" provided we are successful. Investor considers the investment desires "x" and makes that investment and hopes they are sucessfull. If they are successfull they get what they wanted. Whether that's money or a game that would not have been made if it weren't for investors.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk. If the project folds, the donors get their money back. If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.
It's not a GOOD thing when investors put money into a project that turns into a flop. It discourages investment in general. Kickstarter helps prevent that.
When Kickstarter is treated as a pay up-front model, it's a win-win. Unless of course you throw your money into something you don't believe in, but then you really have no one to blame but yourself.
I love how almost everyone here is putting kickstarter down, but almost everyone here has bitched about the perfect MMO that should be made cause everything shit, and continues to be shit. So if this project appeared on kickstarter, it should not be funded, right? We shouldn't take that chance, sicne we all know it will never happen, it's a lie, and if it does it's going to suck.
Just like Wasteland 2 is ABSOLUTELY going to be horrendous, even with Brian Fargo at the head. Best not to ever risk it.
He's the real problem with both sides, it's a risk, but the problem with a preorder is you usually know what you are getting into. This was not the case that cause the video to be spawned that was linked in the first post. What happened there was pretty much lies. All of it.
I used preodering myself way back in the day before digital distribution, I bet half of you don't even know a world without it, because I live in a small ass town and a store could *gasp* run out of copies. The incentives on preorders at this point is bullshit. Just give me the game, and if some gun was supposed to be in the game, then put it in the god damned game, not just because I bought it from amazon.
It's a risk on all sides, and hell you can make the arguement that buying ANYTHING is a risk.
Yes buying anything is risky but what is more risky? placing a pre order for mere 50 to 60 bucks after watching lots of previews and video footage, participating in beta and testing the game before hand or spending hundered of dollars on mere promises of some guy who has his way with words and want to sell you a bridge to MMO utopia?
You mean Aliens Colonial Marines? Bam! In your overly pompous face!
I think you missed that part where i said everything is risky but which is more considering people pledge a lot more money in kickstarters than say pre ordering the game. Which can be cancelled very easily. How easy is it to cancel your pledge?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
Neither is 'bad' - provided the person pre-ordering or pledging is given honest information and is fully aware of what they are doing and the risks involved.
And, sadly, that is where the problem lies.
My biggest concern is for the adolescents in either case. These are people who are sometimes a little nieve about the ways of business and don't fully comprehend what they are reading / being told.
Another issue is consumer protection laws.
In the case of pre-orders (where I live - Australia) made in a store you are protected by law against false advertising. So if a game fails to deliver on "promises" (features are not included, performance is not up to an acceptable standard) then you are entitled to your money back.
Purchases over the internet (including Kickstarter) do not have this protection. (Kickstarter refunds are based on good faith)
My biggest concern over the last few years is that many companies seem to be exploiting impatientence and gullability of consumers. Also the fact that many consumers are not protected by decent consumer protection laws. That includes preorders and Kickstarter projects.
I have no issue with Kickstarter projects like the Double Fine Adventure because IIRC Tim Schafer was clear from the start that the project could be a failure or a success but either way backers would get to watch the documentary. The scope of the project was clear (one game, point and click, 6-8 months, documentary) and the chance of failure was made clear. And it is worth noting that the project did "fail" because it is over time and over budget - but as promised we got to see the details.
What I do have an issue with is certain recent Kickstarters that offer very vague scope and seem to rely totally on fanboi-ism.
With pre-orders I have serious issues with sales prior to release based of very sketchy information, restricted gameplay knowledge, bait advertising such as linking the sale to another product (buy a lifetime subscription and get beta access to project X).
So, I don't see either as 'bad' - provided people are aware of exactly what they are spending their money on.
I dont understand why the mindless masses insist on being the "first" into a game, or paying 60, 70 even 100 EUD just to get into a game a week early or get a stupid 2" peuter figure or some pleather dice bag or a paper map.
Kickstarters arent much better in my mind either. The developers are being a little more honest and just saying, "hey we are broke, and to lazy/proud/ignorant to get financial backing."
And if it doesnt work, you the person paying dont end up paying a dime. So ultimately it comes out to be zero risk investment by the player, and low risk for the developer. The problems arise if a company pulls a stunt like some other developers have in the past. If you get a developer that starts a kickstarter and puts out a decent demo to draw enough funds in and then pulls the plug after the goals have been met, and they take the money and run, there is nothing you can do about it.
So to me Kickstarter is a double edged sword, it cuts out the middle man and the trash producer who pushes out junk and then pulls out the last minute. (See Strategy First WWIIOL) But those producers, gave some balance to the system incase of failure. Kickstarter does not, if they meet their goals they get their money, and there is no legally binding agreement that they have to do what they stated in that agreement other than give you what you paid for. So if you paid for early access, you will get early access, no telling what that product might be.
Comments
"Kickstarter's clients ARE the people who pledge money. If Kickstarter didn't ensure that people weren't getting scammed, people wouldn't use it, and then Kickstarter wouldn't make any money. There is a contract, and it gives a very strict outline of what is required from the developer." - DavisFlight
False. Kickstarter collects money from the project starter, not the backer.
"If a project fails, no one gets charged." - DavisFlight
"You can't get "scammed" out of money. The person using Kickstarter is legally obligated to produce a product and use the money they get exactly for what they said they would." - DavisFlight
If a project fails after funding has completed, no one gets their money back. The developer is obligated to genuinely try to create the game, they don't have to actually make it.
"It's astounding how many people don't even understand the basic idea of Kickstarter." - DavisFlight
Yes. Yes, it is.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I never tell anyone else what to do with thier money.
However, I think you mis-understand the basic purpose of Kickstarters. When you GIVE money to a Kickstarter you are NOT purchasing a product. You are making a GIFT toward an individual or group trying to produce a creative work. You may be given some sort of "thank you" item in return for your gift...but it is NOT a purchase and you really shouldn't expect anything back.
Kickstarter is a way for small independant artists or groups to secure funding for thier projects that aren't able to secure funding through traditional means. This means a greater diversity of products will get produced and there will be a greater diversity of producers. In the macro sense, this is good for consumers particularly ones with niche tastes, as it creates greater competition in the market and it means ALL producers, even big ones have to put out better products and treat their customers better.
In the micro sense, smaller independant producers tend to have a closer relationship with thier individual customers because those individual customers make up a larger portion of thier revenue base, they are inclined to treat them better then a larger company.
Many people are disinclined to pre-order from many of the large producers because they've been burned too many times by those very same producers. They've noted a tendency from them to produce sub-standard products which are sold mostly on thier marketing budgets and hype.
I personaly won't pre-order any titles from the big game producers for that very reason. However I will happily pre-order from some (non MMO) game producers because I have been impressed with the quality of products produced by them and the quality of service I have recieved in the past. Therefore they have already established a good reputation with me. I would do the same if any big producers could meet that threshold...so far none have.
In terms of Kickstarters, I rarely participate them....but I occasionaly might be willing to contribute a few dollars to a project that I think is really worthy.....especialy if the principles involved have a past reputation for solid dealings and high quality work. As with anything else, one will see better results if one does some homework on who one chooses to hand money. YMMV.
While I have kickstarted 2 games so far. 1 successfully and the other not so much. I did both because I wanted to see their game come to life. I also preorder the hell out of a game I look forward to. I see nothing wrong with either but I do have a problem with someone kickstarting a game and then being hyporcritical towards me because I bought a $200 Neverwinter Founders pack.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
If this was true then the kicstarter project wouldn't offer all thsoe incentives. Because they do offer all thsoe incentives they are in fact eliciting the same response as someone who preorders.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
you pay X amount before the game is made. The developer shares his vision with you. You interpret that vision in your own ways. THe game launches with the developer vision and not exactly how you envisioned the idea he shared with you. You end up with a game you dont like. You lost your money.
Kickstarter is a much riskier way to invest in games as a consumer. Both kickstarter and pre purchasing are bad. But if im doing one of the two i'd prepurchase something that i already tried the beta or at least seen enough content before making the move.
Thats just me. Each to his own, i guess.
When you pre-order, you are buying into a vision of a game that you (the community) has little say in. The game is already made and will release despite any concerns the community has voiced. Most importantly, the game will have had the hands of publishers all over, trying to monetize every aspect of the game. In the end, it really isnt worth it to pre-order. You take all the risk with absolutely no expectation of return on pre-oredering. The exception are some of these pre-orders on steam where you get a free game. The Bioshock infinite preorder gave a free copy of Xcom. That is a damn good reason to preorder.
A kickstarter project is pretty much the opposite. The community has a say in the development of the game. The funding of the kickstarter project relies solely upon the demand for the game being sold. Furthermore, it cuts out the publishers and thier influence on the game, making it possible to get games made for specific audiences (niche markets) that traditional publishers don't see as a viable investment. Furthermore, you can see a pledge on Kickstarter as an investment. The return you make on that investment is potentially quite large. Without kickstarter we wouldnt be getting the upcoming Wasteland, the new Shadowrun or the new Torment. That alone is pretty huge IMO.
Any idiot knows the simplest way to cover yourself when "backing" something on kickstarter is to just pay on your credit card. If they don't produce the game you just dispute the charge, get your money back, and move on.
Seriously...not that hard.
**edit**
Verbage, meant to put produce the game rather than fund.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
I love how almost everyone here is putting kickstarter down, but almost everyone here has bitched about the perfect MMO that should be made cause everything shit, and continues to be shit. So if this project appeared on kickstarter, it should not be funded, right? We shouldn't take that chance, sicne we all know it will never happen, it's a lie, and if it does it's going to suck.
Just like Wasteland 2 is ABSOLUTELY going to be horrendous, even with Brian Fargo at the head. Best not to ever risk it.
He's the real problem with both sides, it's a risk, but the problem with a preorder is you usually know what you are getting into. This was not the case that cause the video to be spawned that was linked in the first post. What happened there was pretty much lies. All of it.
I used preodering myself way back in the day before digital distribution, I bet half of you don't even know a world without it, because I live in a small ass town and a store could *gasp* run out of copies. The incentives on preorders at this point is bullshit. Just give me the game, and if some gun was supposed to be in the game, then put it in the god damned game, not just because I bought it from amazon.
It's a risk on all sides, and hell you can make the arguement that buying ANYTHING is a risk.
The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.
If it doesn't fund, you don't get charged in the first place.
No....
You're buying the completed version of the game. By the time you see what you're pre-ordering the game is basically set and finished (minus bug squashing).
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
That's EXACTLY it.
Pre-ordering has no meaning any longer, at all. Unless you want the "bonuses" that they're offering there's no risk of them not having enough for you to buy (which was the main reason pre-ordering began back in the day).
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Which is why the name has changed several times over the past few years - to keep that pre-publish income rolling in.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes buying anything is risky but what is more risky? placing a pre order for mere 50 to 60 bucks after watching lots of previews and video footage, participating in beta and testing the game before hand or spending hundered of dollars on mere promises of some guy who has his way with words and want to sell you a bridge to MMO utopia?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
You mean Aliens Colonial Marines? Bam! In your overly pompous face!
The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.
and what is the difference between that and investing in a startup?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
In theory, investing in a startup offests the risks of putting in that money against the potential rewards of even more money coming back if the startup is successful. Kickstarter doesn't (usually) buy you an actual share in the project's success.
That difference isn't enough to deter me from putting some money into kickstart projects that interest me, but I can understand why others might feel differently.
What people don't understand is that Kickstarter is not meant to fund a startup, kickstarter prevents any kind of startup funding from happening on their service. Kickstarter is only meant for a project to project basis.
As for looking at funding projects on kickstarter, it isn't much of funding as much as supporting a project. Kickstarter is placed almost at the preparation stage of a project, and not meant to fund the project for the entire life line. If a kickstarter project can use those raised money for the entire project, they must have done ridiculous well on kickstarter.
Kickstarter is built for what it is suppose to do, to kickstart a project, not to fund a project. There are other platforms for that.
As for the OP, one is from the consumer's POV, one from an investor's POV, you can't compare them.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
You get the same perks with pledging as like with normal pre-orders.
Yes... the difference with Pre-Orders is that there actually is a game that is (mostly) finished.
The only person I have ever pledged for, is for Star Citizen, as Robert actually still has a clean track record.
Both Mark Jacobs and Richard Garriott have developed overinflated EGO's over the years and have turned themselves into the joke of the game industry. Hence, why they resort to Kickstarter all the sudden.... as it's the only way they will be able to get any money anymore.
Well, they won't get a dime from me.
I think its mainly people donate to Kickstarter projects due to the type of games being made that publishers are too much of pansy's to make cause it isn't labeled Call Of Duty... people want different things, people want new ideas, not the same ol crap a publisher continues to throw out at consumers and that's why people at 3 different studios this week either shut down completely (Lucasarts) and people lost their jobs due to the greed or lackluster games being pushed to the public.
There may be develoepers on Kickstarter who might not deliver but the ones that do bring something new to the table that gets us hard about gaming again. And that is a good thing.
Well of course that's true. And the the amounts that people put into kickstarter are pretty paltry when compared to the larger sums of investing in a starting business.
I just don't see the big deal in the differences between one's payoff.
He says that it's like begging for money for a project that might not even make it to completion. So it's ok for companies to "beg' for money for their projects as long as the investor gets a financial benefit? It's better to put far larger sums into the startup that the investor could very well lose over much smaller sums which the investor could very well lose.
It's still pretty much the same thing: company says that if you invest you get "X" provided we are successful. Investor considers the investment desires "x" and makes that investment and hopes they are sucessfull. If they are successfull they get what they wanted. Whether that's money or a game that would not have been made if it weren't for investors.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As I pointed out in the other thread, the main value of Kickstarter is the general lack of risk. If the project folds, the donors get their money back. If there's not enough interest, the product doesn't get made.
It's not a GOOD thing when investors put money into a project that turns into a flop. It discourages investment in general. Kickstarter helps prevent that.
When Kickstarter is treated as a pay up-front model, it's a win-win. Unless of course you throw your money into something you don't believe in, but then you really have no one to blame but yourself.
I think you missed that part where i said everything is risky but which is more considering people pledge a lot more money in kickstarters than say pre ordering the game. Which can be cancelled very easily. How easy is it to cancel your pledge?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
In answer to the original question:
Neither is 'bad' - provided the person pre-ordering or pledging is given honest information and is fully aware of what they are doing and the risks involved.
And, sadly, that is where the problem lies.
My biggest concern is for the adolescents in either case. These are people who are sometimes a little nieve about the ways of business and don't fully comprehend what they are reading / being told.
Another issue is consumer protection laws.
In the case of pre-orders (where I live - Australia) made in a store you are protected by law against false advertising. So if a game fails to deliver on "promises" (features are not included, performance is not up to an acceptable standard) then you are entitled to your money back.
Purchases over the internet (including Kickstarter) do not have this protection. (Kickstarter refunds are based on good faith)
My biggest concern over the last few years is that many companies seem to be exploiting impatientence and gullability of consumers. Also the fact that many consumers are not protected by decent consumer protection laws. That includes preorders and Kickstarter projects.
I have no issue with Kickstarter projects like the Double Fine Adventure because IIRC Tim Schafer was clear from the start that the project could be a failure or a success but either way backers would get to watch the documentary. The scope of the project was clear (one game, point and click, 6-8 months, documentary) and the chance of failure was made clear. And it is worth noting that the project did "fail" because it is over time and over budget - but as promised we got to see the details.
What I do have an issue with is certain recent Kickstarters that offer very vague scope and seem to rely totally on fanboi-ism.
With pre-orders I have serious issues with sales prior to release based of very sketchy information, restricted gameplay knowledge, bait advertising such as linking the sale to another product (buy a lifetime subscription and get beta access to project X).
So, I don't see either as 'bad' - provided people are aware of exactly what they are spending their money on.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I dont understand why the mindless masses insist on being the "first" into a game, or paying 60, 70 even 100 EUD just to get into a game a week early or get a stupid 2" peuter figure or some pleather dice bag or a paper map.
Kickstarters arent much better in my mind either. The developers are being a little more honest and just saying, "hey we are broke, and to lazy/proud/ignorant to get financial backing."
And if it doesnt work, you the person paying dont end up paying a dime. So ultimately it comes out to be zero risk investment by the player, and low risk for the developer. The problems arise if a company pulls a stunt like some other developers have in the past. If you get a developer that starts a kickstarter and puts out a decent demo to draw enough funds in and then pulls the plug after the goals have been met, and they take the money and run, there is nothing you can do about it.
So to me Kickstarter is a double edged sword, it cuts out the middle man and the trash producer who pushes out junk and then pulls out the last minute. (See Strategy First WWIIOL) But those producers, gave some balance to the system incase of failure. Kickstarter does not, if they meet their goals they get their money, and there is no legally binding agreement that they have to do what they stated in that agreement other than give you what you paid for. So if you paid for early access, you will get early access, no telling what that product might be.
So much crap, so little quality.