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KS Update 28....STEALTH.
Raagnarz
Member RarePosts: 647
Folks,
Okay, it's time to take a ride on the BSC train but before we do that, a couple of quick bits. First, another great day for our Kickstarter! We're on track to one of our highest daily number of pledges and pledge totals! If we can keep this up, we'll be in good shape for our final few days. Second, there was an amazing piece by Robert Purchese over at Eurogamer here.
BSC Stealth
Stealthers and I have a long and interesting history, dating back to Dark Age of Camelot, which had the most robust and interesting implementation of stealth in any MMORPG to date. Unfortunately, it also had some serious bugs, and yes, some design errors. Over the years at Mythic, we balanced/nerfed/changed/added elements in an attempt to improve the overall system.
Since then, many other studios have tried to create a “better” stealth system. Most of these attempts resulted in “dumbed down” implementations. Speaking solely as a player, I love stealth and have played numerous stealth-based characters in MMORPGs. OTOH, speaking as a designer, especially of an RvR-focused MMORPG such as Camelot Unchained, I’m deeply concerned about them and their effect on the game.
I don’t want to add a class that drives away as many people as it attracts whether due to the real or simply perceived power of stealthers. Nor do I want one that has to be continually nerfed to try to find just the right balance and to stave off the anger of non-stealthers.
While in an RvR game, while we will always be balancing classes, being killed by a stealther seems to generate more angry comments and e-mails than other classes. When the discussions here at CSE began to coalesce around an MMORPG, I did not want to repeat those bad old days of constant complaints (some valid, some not) and angry forums due to stealthers and the changes that we made to them. I did, however, want to find a way we might possibly bring them into Camelot Unchained because if we can do so in an innovative and fun way, we could add another interesting dynamic to the game.
IMO, some of the problems with stealth, from both a designer's and a player’s perspective are:
- 1) A lot of potential stealthers, most likely the vast majority, want long duration stealth, but most victims hate it.
- 2) Most stealthers hate moving slowly in stealth mode, while the victims love it.
- 3) Some stealthers, like any other class, do want to be OP, but many welcome the challenge of a more difficult system that rewards smart play and skill, not just patience and stunlock (which is hated by the majority of victims because it removes their ability to actually fight back) and/or extremely powerful opening attacks.
- 4) Some stealthers don’t want to be part of keep sieges or mass RvR, but others really want to be involved and help out in more ways than simply picking off lone players (wounded or not).
- 5) Most people dislike being killed by a stealther, but almost everyone hates being killed by multiple stealthers acting in concert.
- 6) “Easy on” stealth is widely despised by the victims and laughed at by some stealthers, and is usually a bit of a disconnect from most games' physical laws.
- 7) Some stealthers really want to play the role of a scout, while for others, the role of an assassin fits them best.
The problem was and is how to resolve these and other issues and make this fit together nicely. I don’t want to simply implement Dark Age of Camelot’s system even if I could. Too many other developers have tried, and frankly, this game is about taking risk. It’s about making choices matter, it’s about this world and this lore, but most importantly, it’s about RvR and the Veil.
The Veil, the term that plays such an important part in CU lure and to which some people’s early reaction to was to see it as “fluff” or even trite, is so much more than just a bit of inter-dimensional detritus. As I discussed in my lore update, it is a living and sentient being that exists in the space between this world and that of the Emissaries. What if we could tie the Veil into the game at an even deeper level and make that a core mechanism for a stealth system? It’s light bulb over the head time, Wart. For weeks I’ve been talking about a BSC (Bat S**t Crazy) idea for stealth, and here it is, in all its glory or folly.
What if we used the Veil as almost a different world for stealthers? What if being in it allows them to move normally through it, but also comes with some significant downsides? After all, the Veil is alive and sentient, and it’s in a real pissed-off mood these days. How could we implement a system utilizing the Veil that both makes playing solo stealthers feasible and allows them to contribute to RvR, but can also act as a shadow world? For the consideration of our backers and comments from those waiting in the wings, I present my concept for VeilWalkers and VeilStalkers.
A VeilWalker is a being that can, as the name suggests, move through the Veil in much the same manner as we move through our world. They do pierce it, but not in the same manner as the apocalyptic event, and they do so almost undetected by it. The world around them shifts as if they were seeing it through gauze.
While within its “body”, they can move at normal and sometimes heightened speed.
Like our bodies, however, it also has its own defenses, so VeilWalkers must always be on guard. Think of the scene in the movie Fantastic Voyage when the anti-bodies attack both the sub and anyone outside it. That’s only one of the ways the Veil fights back against invaders, and it can also throw other challenges at a VeilWalker plying his/her craft. For example, there are also the spirits of dead VeilWalkers who seek to consume their living counterparts' souls to ease their painful existence.
Speaking of pain, walking through the Veil hurts VeilWalkers and can change them over time. This pain is also greater the more stealthers are in proximity to you and the longer you stay close to each other. In addition, the Veil can send out illusions to confuse VeilWalkers, especially less experienced ones.
Now, what do you get for all this risk? Power, movement speed, a game within a game and a challenge like no other. VeilWalkers won’t make great scouts (our archers would be a better choice) and they aren’t great at sneaking up and going all stunlock or stabby/stabby, but they can move through unprotected walls, levitate over objects, learn to control aspects of the Veil’s defenses and use them to their advantage, and so much more.
There is no easy on button for entering the Veil so it can’t be used as an escape valve. Also, the more stealthers that are together in an area, the more that the Veil fights back, especially when they are all from the same realm. Forming and maintaining a “gank squad” in the Veil will not be an easy task, and frankly, it will be less rewarding for stealthers than soloing.
The BSC train still hasn’t stopped. To make it even more interesting for stealthers, I added the concept of a VeilStalker. This class cannot move within the Veil, but its powers are geared to hunting VeilWalkers from outside. They can detect them, lay down traps and prepare other defenses. They are best at dealing with VeilWalkers and protecting other players/areas from them. Walkers/stalkers are two sides of the same coin.
But wait, there’s more! Remember when I said that VeilWalkers' best abilities are useful within the Veil? Well, there are a couple exceptions. One is being attacked by a VeilStalker. When a stalker reaches into the Veil to attack a walker, you guessed it, the walker can fight back, and when he does, his powers can extend into the world. Think of it as a perpetual feedback loop. They can also attack outside the Veil but they are at their best within it.
The Veil holds mysteries and power, but it comes with a price. Within it,the walkers are deadly, with special abilities and powers that cannot be used outside. An “easy on” stealth button so you can hunt down single players? Meh. Hunting other hunters within a sentient body that wants you dead while stalkers on the outside are looking for any signs of your presence... now there’s a challenge worthy of a great player. So what do you say people, BSC or not? Fun or not?
-Mark
Comments
Camelot Unchained Fanpage
https://simply-gaming.com/camelot/
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Sounds retarded but its what I expected after the veil lore update.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
that's not exactly what he said.. think people are trying to relate this stealth to the normal rogue type wow stealth.. doesn't sound like it will serve the same purpose at all and will be a completely differn't mechanic
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
A very well thought out game within a game concept. But with all humility, let me add that until mmorpgs can create graphics to such a level that someone can indeed hide within them, i.e., real stealth (not magical snap your fingers in broad daylight stuff)...until that day when I can hide my rogue, warrior, archer behind a bush...we need a stealth mechanic. But meh, I'm just one person.
Secondly, and I believe this is more important. Why do people complain about rogues and what kind of people complain? In my 11 years in dark age and bouncing into wow for end game raiding as a rogue or other class...I have clearly seen that folks that are most likely to complain are the ones that want the solo fights. They make a toon run out solo and want a solo pvp game. They put it on yourtube, they brag about it, they make a name for themselves. Insert a stealth mechanic, and the player that wants to "pwn" on his visible toon, and suddenly the visible toon player no longer has a solo game.
Stealth is a wonderful mechanic that forces people to group in pvp even moreso than not. Three visibles are more likely to group to survive than to run solo if they know a few rogues are about.
So group up folks - chances are a real group will tear apart a handful of rogues or rogues won't bother anyway. They will be too darn busy looking for that solo visible dude with the FRAPS running. And like it or not, in real world pvp - we have stealth. It's as natural a part of combat as K-rations. Learn to handle it, learn to be more social and clear rogues as a team. After all, isn't that what true Realm vs Realm vs Realm is all about? The team effort?
Nanulak
The answer is....definite possibility. You're not going to get to go invis and hunt with impunity in this. You're definitely not going to be able to do it in groups of stealthers. You also won't see everything clearly that exists in the real world so it might be difficult to lock onto specific individuals. When you go into stealth, or the veil, it gets pissed and wants to hunt you. It spawns (not sure when) a ghost version of you that hunts you.
I love the idea. I have a few questions regarding how it will react with the real wold. How distorted the real world will be etc. I am not a fan of stealth the way it has been implemented in almost every game relased, save shadowbane because of scouts. That being said this leaves me some questions but I can't deny that is sounds amazing and definitely interesting.
Sounds pretty cool. Risky, but rewarding. A good stealth system needs that sort of balance.
That said, clearly needs some fleshing out. But I like the direction thus far.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
When I think "too many stealthers" I'm thinking around 5 or more in a single group.
2 or 3 should be about the max stealth group size without having too many penalties.
Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
Probably just a name for the archetype rather than an actual class. Like every realm will have a healer.. but three different classes to fill the role.
Amazing how this concept ends up showing the difference between mmo players and tabletop rpg players. Mmo players think this is a unique, strange or even dumb idea on stealth. Tabletop rpg players (like me) see it simply as a concept we have seen in games like D&D, Rifts, etc for most of our lives seeing how old those games are. The first time I died in Wow and saw the misty plane I was excited as I thought there would be so much more to it just like how we used planes often in D&D ... ya, that was a total letdown (actually pretty much everything in mmos has become a letdown from what I originally thought the genre could beome).
Reading this update made me think why he even bothered to bring up stealth to begin with. MJ could have simply said he is adding a way for a class to master viel traveling and fighting and I wouldn't have blinked an eye and even had thought "about time". It comes basically down seeing if it sucks or not but the core idea stems from popular fantasy.
You stay sassy!
The Walker / Stalker / Einstein-Interaction sounds a bit too complicated and fuzzy to me. I think the game will be quite dynamic and, especially if stealthers should play a role in RvR battles, this kind of complicated setup doesn't seem to offer itself to group movement around the map.
It may just be sufficient if the Stalkers had an increased veil-stealth-detection skill and could alert their buddies to the presence of stealthers, or even could "draw the Walkers out of the Veil" (i.e. unstealth in other games' terms)
The first thing I thought of when reading this was when Frodo puts the Ring on, vanishes from sight but he's then seen in this parallel world that nobody can see.
Awesome sounding concept but I imagine it's gonna be a bitch to implement in a balanced way.
I really hope you pull it off because it's a great idea.
The risk vs reward people talk about was fine in DAoC, before the age of buffbots.
It's hugely risky as an unbuffed stealther in DAoC to be playing out in RvR. Vs groups that have buffs& heals - no chance. Versus other unbuffed soloers: good chance, but certainly not a given.
In the end it comes down to this:
---
Hello gamedesigner,
Please nerf paper, it's overpowered.
Scissors are fine though, don't change them
Signed,
Rock.
---
Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
Jager, Infiltrator, EU Excalibur
Phos, Cleric, EU Excalibur
Mortify, Sorcerer, EU Excalibur
But Rock can't find Scissors... because Scissors is invisible.
Unless Rock gets True Sight like abilities to see stealthers normally from distance, of course.
It's a novel idea but I wonder at the implementation of something like this and preventing serious exploits.
it seems very complicated and resource hungry. Do they have the funds to make something like this work?
I have to say, I'm not a fan of this concept at all and extremely skeptical.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
I guess I fall into the "great idea, but concerned about implmentation" crowd.
However, I love these novel ideas and much prefer this kind of thing to the boring and stale mechanics we have in the current crop of MMOs. Obviously, more development is required to translate concept into gameplay. I am excited to see where this leads. I like the Veil as sentient being and i am very intrigued at it coming out of lore and landing right into the middle of gameplay.
MJ's stealth concept is the point where the "big vision" perspective needs to be throttled a bit by realistic design.
The basic concept of having a veil "alternate ghost world stealth mechanic" is good, and I like it. It's an inverted perspective of classic stealth and it can work.
The part that won't work is the way he structured his two classes. I'm going to generally ignore that aspect of his update completely.
Basically, the core concept will work if the "veilwalker/stalker" class is the same class, and can go into or out of the "veil" whenever, as well as have vision into / out of the veil (although the vision range is limited -- more later).
In order to cross the veil (into or out of), make it a long cast time / channel / whatever. Like 4s channel, last 1-2 seconds of which have a fade-in time on the "other side".
This means that an ambush "from stealth" is slow. It also means that a stealther has "100% pure perma stealth" until they try to interact with the normal world. It also means that escape into the veil is pretty slow. The delay also means that the ambushing force could be scouted by your own veilies.
In terms of tactics, this is where vision comes into play. Conceptually, consider this:
Normal vision distance: 5000 (normal player in the normal world)
Veil vision in the veil: 2000 (e.g. a veilstalker inside the veil looking for other veil-players)
Veil vision FROM the normal world: 500-1000 (e.g. a veilstalker in the normal plane acting as a spotter for a regular group, looking for stealthies)
Edit: A non-veil player (non-stealther) could have something like 100 range veil vision from the normal world, so if they walk over a stealther they can see the ghost, but they can't attack them (they're in the veil).
Normal vision from the veil: 1000 (a veilstalker in the veil looking for a gank, or to scout)
This means that norm v. norm have long-distance tactical capability. Stealth ganks are possible but may be sluggish to keep track of scouting. Scouts can work either from the normal plane at a reduced level. Stealth Warzz can occur in the veil when scouts enter to look for baddies at a longer range.
In terms of class design, stealthers should not have exceptional burst damage or stunlock. I think utility and debuffs are good, and moderate dps, and moderate tanking capability are all good. Whatever.
Have to say I share this opinon. I'm most leery about this Viel plane and exactly what it will entail. If it's some secondary world with NPCs, seems like a lot to design for one archtype. If this is something like being attacked with insta roots, stuns, and slows while in the Viel that can be mitigated with other effects from teamates, I could see that. That doesn't fit in with the idea of solo stealth play being viable though. Also seems like a nightmare to balance and I'm not sure that effort's adding a whole lot to the overall game.
I don't think stealth is a problem. Its when you combine multiple factors together.
Like a stealth class that is given the edge against all other classes in 1v1 that also does the most DPS, has a massive damage dealing opener, and also has a half dozen escape abilities so if someone gets the edge on a stealth player he just vanishes. That is frusturating.
For example GW2 Thieves while they dont have all of the above they had an insane opener where they would teleport to you and kill you in 3 moves in 1-2 seconds.
I don't think anyone would have a problem with a perma stealth class who isn't designed to kill all other players in 1v1 without a vanish type skill.
Again stealth isnt the problem, its like saying I hate magic because im a 2h sword player that has to go up against someone shooting fireballs that kill me instantly with a 50 yard blast radius with no cooldown