Originally posted by RamanadjinnI never claimed having 50% more HP and damage than someone wouldn't lead to victory in most cases.That has nothing to do with the point of my post which obviously wasn't clear enough. My point being, with the way the combat is, it is harder to judge the more powerful builds than it is in some games where every hit is a background calculation and nothing more.Try not to extrapolate beyond what I have claimed.
I am not "extrapolating" anything, I just pointed out an error in your assumption.
That emei you see "face rolling" is mostly not due skill but pimp gear, lvls and buffs since they do so much of a difference. Nothing to do with a skill.
You will see more of this "facerolling" as times goes on and gap between old and new players increase.
I actually like talent trees n skill points. D2 being one of my favs. This kind of system(as the OP explains it) leads to min maxing anyway. And if AoW is entirely skill based what is the point of the progression system in the first place. Too many people want their game to be so different from WoW, they seem to ignore flaws in the system in their games. A progression system that can take years in a F2P game? That has disaster written all over it.
Originally posted by Dihoru Actually the pimp thing in EVE is caused by farming incursions, once they plug that isk fountain that's the end of the pimpy things. Wouldn't no skill cap actually help balance things out because if you had a cap the powerleveler could actually become full level powerful before anyone else but with no cap they'd have to have a build in mind and go with that otherwise they'd be wasting money and quite possibly gimping themselves. Just thinking here.
1) The pimp shit in EVE is caused by CCP losing a direction with EVE.
That is not what EVE was like years ago and what original concept of the game was. All that faction gear that was mostly rare and not so good stats. Now, they made a faction gear viable "purple loot gear" crap..instead of introducing T3 manufactured modules.
2) I really wonder how did you come up with the idea that ever increasing gap between new and old players is balancing something up...
PS: Also, many of those "awesome" EVE PVP vids are either "fake"(ie. Garmon vids) or you just see owning badly fitted opponents(it is worth to check the kill mails of ppl you see in some videos :-P) and optionally pimp gear(boosters, links, faction gear etc.)
Originally posted by Dihoru Actually the pimp thing in EVE is caused by farming incursions, once they plug that isk fountain that's the end of the pimpy things.
Wouldn't no skill cap actually help balance things out because if you had a cap the powerleveler could actually become full level powerful before anyone else but with no cap they'd have to have a build in mind and go with that otherwise they'd be wasting money and quite possibly gimping themselves. Just thinking here.
1) The pimp shit in EVE is caused by CCP losing a direction with EVE.
That is not what EVE was like years ago and what original concept of the game was. All that faction gear that was mostly rare and not so good stats. Now, they made a faction gear viable "purple loot gear" crap..instead of introducing T3 manufactured modules.
2) I really wonder how did you come up with the idea that ever increasing gap between new and old players is balancing something up...
1) T1, T1 meta 4, storyline, T2, faction, deadspace, faction for the most part offers T2 stats at T1 fitting requirements, storyline was a bridge between T1 meta 4 and T2 in the olden days, T1 meta 4 can be just as good as faction in a few cases and way cheaper and deadspace is t2 fitting requirements (or more) for stats superior to T2 in most cases. Note that aside from faction none of the modules are by far superior to one another because factoring in price you can get that the best build for your ship contain more t2 than faction or deadspace stuff. I did not mention officer modules because either you need to be stinking filthy rich to afford them on a sub-cap or it is exclusively for capital ships and above. Your idea actually would mean introducing purple loot because T3 requires what I consider to be endgame PVE content (sleepers).
2) Because no cap = either you specialize or you spend time becoming adept at everything but master of nothing. That or you invest thousands of dollars into a game in which case people will just pile on top of you and kill you anyway.
PS: that PS of yours makes you sound like someone who got his ass handed to him too many times in EVE by superior skilled players and now feels the need to explain it away with fictional mechanics that don't exist in-game.
Originally posted by Dihoru1) storyline was a bridge between T1 meta 4 and T2 in the olden days.
Laughed hard on this one...
Re-read my post couple a times before "imagining" things again. All faction/deadspace gear used to be very rare and not so good stuff, back in the days. CCP has bufffed up faction crap A LOT to make it viable gear and made it an equivalent of WoW alike "purple" gear.
Metas 2-3 are there for invention and minerals mostly. It is more of a resource rather than equipment.
Skill cap is what makes you a specialist. You look at skills from short time perspective...in longer perspective, that "jack of all trade" will become specialist in all fields.
AoW is simply not setup to make any specializations. Everyone will become a master of all...at some point, just like everyone will hit lvl 85 or w/e and gets his raid gear in WoW, repeating the same with each lvl cap raised and new gear introduction.
And your PS just confirmed how you are only theorycrafting and lacking experience/knowledge on topic...
1) storyline was a bridge between T1 meta 4 and T2 in the olden days.
Laughed hard on this one...
Re-read my post couple a times before "imagining" things again. All faction/deadspace gear used to be very rare and not so good stuff, back in the days. CCP has bufffed up faction crap A LOT to make it viable gear and made it an equivalent of WoW alike "purple" gear.
Metas 2-3 are there mostly for invention and minerals mostly. It is more of a resource rather than equipment.
Skill cap is what makes you a specialist. You look at skills from short time perspective...in longer perspective, that "jack of all trade" will become specialist in all fields.
AoW is simply not setup that way. Everyone will become a master of all...at some point.
And your PS just confirmed how you are only theorycrafting and lacking experience/knowledge on topic...
I've played EVE for 7 years I can tell when someone's peeved about something or another and while you keep saying "used to be" the fact of the matter is they still are, their prices are immense and most cannot be used in pvp due to this, in pve they're godsends that's true but in pvp unless you are bathing in isk and wiping your ass with plexes you cannot afford throwaway ships with the superior deadspace/faction modules.
Also saying Meta 2-3 is amusing when I said Meta 4, go read up please.
Also in the long term (60 or so years) everyone in EVE will become a master of all so your logic is flawed. Please refrain from making me pull apart your logic in public like this because it's obvious that if you ever had direct experience with EVE it was wasted on notions of superior gear in a full drop/partial loot system where the economy is as close to real as any game I know of and where money is hard to come by unless you do level 4 missions non-stop or run high class sleeper sites which are risky both in terms of pve and pvp.
There is no finest fail then argument from authority represented by yourself....
Originally posted by Dihoru
Also in the long term (60 or so years) everyone in EVE will become a master of all so your logic is flawed.
Makes no difference since you can fly only 1 ship at a time...as pointed out already.
Only one who fails here is you, sir.
And you can somehow have multiple bodies in AoW with the same character? can you fight with more than 2 blades? Please quit it with the passive aggressive stuff, it's beneath civilized discussion especially when you make no sense and try to make things personal when you're out of arguments.
When you have no skill cap or a very high one you essentially open more separation between newer players and veterans with regards to raw power. For some this is great, they like the idea of having more raw power but....this in know way leads to balance. The fact that there are so many options also leads to unbalance.
Originally posted by Dihoru And you can somehow have multiple bodies in AoW with the same character? can you fight with more than 2 blades?
Isn't it obvious...? You cannot change ship or fittings on the fly on the battle field. In AoW you just need to wait 7s to swap a skill set. And this timer is going to be even reduced, making it even more silly and "power stacking".
What am I supposed to quit? You started that non-sense, I am just throwing it back into your face. You are the one trying to bring it down to personal level...
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx OP forgets to mention you can quite literally pay money to power level in this game.
If it is skill based and not power based what would be the point in mentioning an option like that Rommel ?
Alright, lets go into actual detail here.
Youre internal skill determine your stats, it has 36 levels true, you can only have 1 active at a time, each level takes time to level like eve online, except you can meditate, which is basically using gold and other resources to speed up the leveling process.
Gold can be bought with real money, hence you can power level with money. Which makes a big deal when something takes 25 hours a level, and you spend 5minutes because you use gold that is a big advantage.
Your skills also have levels, so while it is skill based, if your skills are level 1 while your enemy is at level 5, he is going to break you.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
And you can somehow have multiple bodies in AoW with the same character? can you fight with more than 2 blades?
Isn't it obvious...? You cannot change ship or fittings on the fly on the battle field. In AoW you just need to wait 7s to swap a skill set. And this timer is going to be even reduced, making it even more silly and "power stacking".
What am I supposed to quit? You started that non-sense, I am just throwing it back into your face. You are the one trying to bring it down to personal level...
And in EVE in medium to high level pvp you have throwaway ships and supercapital ships sitting in system with clone vats and spare ships in their hangars (or alternatively a supercarrier with a clone vat sat at a pos which also has 2-3 corporate hangar arrays chalk full of ships, note clone vats are important if you cannot get out of the area with your pod intact which most decent players can). Merely pointing out the fact that you're looking completely wrong at a game isn't bringing it to a personal level, calling someone "fail" is and considering how badly most bitter vets would've ripped you a new ass hole for some of the downright ignorant things you've said about EVE you've got balls to mouth off to someone who's still being nice ^^.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx OP forgets to mention you can quite literally pay money to power level in this game.
If it is skill based and not power based what would be the point in mentioning an option like that Rommel ?
Alright, lets go into actual detail here.
Youre internal skill determine your stats, it has 36 levels true, you can only have 1 active at a time, each level takes time to level like eve online, except you can meditate, which is basically using gold and other resources to speed up the leveling process.
Gold can be bought with real money, hence you can power level with money. Which makes a big deal when something takes 25 hours a level, and you spend 5minutes because you use gold that is a big advantage.
Your skills also have levels, so while it is skill based, if your skills are level 1 while your enemy is at level 5, he is going to break you.
Gotcha. How much does it cost to powerlevel that badly? And how many people do you see doing it? And how many times has it shifted the course of a major pvp battle? I am not saying that in 1vs1 you're not gonna get ripped a new one but I've yet to see any reports of 1vs1 duels in AoW, most of it seems to have been clan butt love sessions.
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx Alright, lets go into actual detail here. Youre internal skill determine your stats, it has 36 levels true, you can only have 1 active at a time, each level takes time to level like eve online, except you can meditate, which is basically using gold and other resources to speed up the leveling process.
I can add more to that.
Not only your internal is capped at lvl 36 but there are 3(4 in CN) internal skills per school. While you can only have 1 active, you basically need to have lower tier internals trained up in order to train higher tier internals.
Once you train our school internal, you "have" to train other school internals in order to unlock and train Meridians. The "threadmill" repeats.
There isn't much choice in here, it is very linear. Also, other school internals are obtainable only via loot.
There is a lot of leveling in the game, some like it but I do not think it is a good design for PVP centered game, it never is.
Originally posted by Dihoru And in EVE in medium to high level pvp you have throwaway ships and supercapital ships sitting in system with clone vats and spare ships in their hangars (or alternatively a supercarrier with a clone vat sat at a pos which also has 2-3 corporate hangar arrays chalk full of ships, note clone vats are important if you cannot get out of the area with your pod intact which most decent players can).
Originally posted by Gdemami You cannot change ship or fittings on the fly on the battle field.
You sir, are trying too hard but repeating one fallacy over another won't make either right. My point still stands.
And in EVE in medium to high level pvp you have throwaway ships and supercapital ships sitting in system with clone vats and spare ships in their hangars (or alternatively a supercarrier with a clone vat sat at a pos which also has 2-3 corporate hangar arrays chalk full of ships, note clone vats are important if you cannot get out of the area with your pod intact which most decent players can).
Originally posted by Gdemami You cannot change ship or fittings on the fly on the battle field.
You sir, are trying too hard but repeating one fallacy over another won't make either right. My point still stands.
It stands about as much as a drunk russian on a unicycle . You claim the ability to shift out skills in the middle of combat in AoW, ok, how many hits can an enemy get in before the shift is complete? If the number is higher than 0 then you cannot swap out skills in combat anymore or less than you can swap out ships in EVE ( more so considering in EVE a battlefield is an entire solar system, maybe even multiple, ergo swapping out ships within the same solar system as a pvp battle is still technically on the battlefield because at any moment that carrier or POS can come under direct attack but lets not prove how little you know about EVE further, shall we?), how does that work? well in EVE if you eject from a ship in the middle of combat and ask a carrier to drop another one for you you can get sniped ergo nobody even tries it unless it's a nearly won battle and if in AoW you can get hit in the time you shift out skills you can get killed ergo same bloody deal.
Originally posted by Dihoru You claim the ability to shift out skills in the middle of combat in AoW, ok, how many hits can an enemy get in before the shift is complete? If the number is higher than 0 then you cannot swap out skills in combat anymore or less than you can swap out ships in EVE
None.
You block/dodge/use long animation skill in the time being. You do it actively while in combat.
In order to swap ships in EVE, you need to run/warp away,deagro, dock w/e. It is incomparably more difficult, it is not a combat mechanics.
Yeah, eject in mid combat and lose your ship...brilliant, very much same like in AoW indeed.
I am done discussing with you since it is apparent you have no experience in either game. You just imagine, theorycraft, guess, invent stuff and argue about your invented, false constructions, making the discussion pointless.
You claim the ability to shift out skills in the middle of combat in AoW, ok, how many hits can an enemy get in before the shift is complete? If the number is higher than 0 then you cannot swap out skills in combat anymore or less than you can swap out ships in EVE
None.
You block/dodge/use long animation skill in the time being. You do it actively while in combat.
In order to swap ships in EVE, you need to run/warp away,deagro, dock w/e. It is incomparably more difficult, it is not a combat mechanics.
Yeah, eject in mid combat and lose your ship...brilliant, very much same like in AoW indeed.
I am done discussing with you since it is apparent you have no experience in either game. You just imagine, theorycraft, guess, invent stuff and argue about your invented, false constructions, making the discussion pointless.
keep trying, you're a long, long way away from even being close to right in EVE (some people do eject in mid combat when they know they're gonna lose just so they don't waste time and be able to get back in a fresh ship for more pew pew, don't know with the new system but in the old one ejecting from a t3 was a sure fire way avoiding SP loss, donno if they fixed it though it's been over a year since I lost a t3). You don't even have to run away, it just depends who holds superiority on the battlefield, traditionally carriers are used with triage modules in mind and as such can sit behind the main line while using their long range reps on the ships in the field and while they can't carry much in the way of heavy combat ships they can still fit quite a few cruisers and/or frigate class ships.
For further self-flagelation please check http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Crimewatch, due note which timer prevents you from doing anything and how long it lasts and what triggers it.
The things you just mentioned in AoW sound very much either situational (I doubt you dodge/block always triggers) or an outright exploit of mechanics (trigger a long duration skill while doing something you shouldn't be doing in the middle of combat) and as for the comparison between death in AoW and EVE, I agree: AoW's death penalties are much too lenient.
Now kindly stop it with the personal attacks before I start taking it seriously.
I must admit i am more a carebear.. i dont mind PvP, but i want it on my terms.. being killed while fighting some PvE mobs.. is not a fancy thing.
There is a player in my guild, whos the #1 farm, and wood cutter. She cooks and playes music. She never pvp's. When it's time for a battle she organizes the musicians. She plays buff/defuff music the entire time. Thank goodness we have her.
Yes you can be a powerful bard in AoW, and never lift a sword.
Originally posted by AresPL all titles I mentioned had a lot lvling and great pvp
I cannot speak for other titles mentioned but L2 and that rather support my point.
L2 PVP was so great they had to put karma system and other mechanics in place to reduce the level of griefing and ganking. Same story "recently" followed Perpetuum - started as basically FFA PVP and ended up with large non-PVP areas.
AoW force you to PVP against much stronger players by design and that isn't enjoyable for anyone, never was.
all titles I mentioned had a lot lvling and great pvp
I cannot speak for other titles mentioned but L2 and that rather support my point.
L2 PVP was so great they had to put karma system and other mechanics in place to reduce the level of griefing and ganking. Same story "recently" followed Perpetuum - started as basically FFA PVP and ended up with large non-PVP areas.
AoW force you to PVP against much stronger players by design and that isn't enjoyable for anyone, never was.
The only time I see it being forced is in forbidden instances, and that's normally adjusted by level.
Comments
I am not "extrapolating" anything, I just pointed out an error in your assumption.
That emei you see "face rolling" is mostly not due skill but pimp gear, lvls and buffs since they do so much of a difference. Nothing to do with a skill.
You will see more of this "facerolling" as times goes on and gap between old and new players increase.
1) The pimp shit in EVE is caused by CCP losing a direction with EVE.
That is not what EVE was like years ago and what original concept of the game was. All that faction gear that was mostly rare and not so good stats. Now, they made a faction gear viable "purple loot gear" crap..instead of introducing T3 manufactured modules.
2) I really wonder how did you come up with the idea that ever increasing gap between new and old players is balancing something up...
PS: Also, many of those "awesome" EVE PVP vids are either "fake"(ie. Garmon vids) or you just see owning badly fitted opponents(it is worth to check the kill mails of ppl you see in some videos :-P) and optionally pimp gear(boosters, links, faction gear etc.)
1) T1, T1 meta 4, storyline, T2, faction, deadspace, faction for the most part offers T2 stats at T1 fitting requirements, storyline was a bridge between T1 meta 4 and T2 in the olden days, T1 meta 4 can be just as good as faction in a few cases and way cheaper and deadspace is t2 fitting requirements (or more) for stats superior to T2 in most cases. Note that aside from faction none of the modules are by far superior to one another because factoring in price you can get that the best build for your ship contain more t2 than faction or deadspace stuff. I did not mention officer modules because either you need to be stinking filthy rich to afford them on a sub-cap or it is exclusively for capital ships and above. Your idea actually would mean introducing purple loot because T3 requires what I consider to be endgame PVE content (sleepers).
2) Because no cap = either you specialize or you spend time becoming adept at everything but master of nothing. That or you invest thousands of dollars into a game in which case people will just pile on top of you and kill you anyway.
PS: that PS of yours makes you sound like someone who got his ass handed to him too many times in EVE by superior skilled players and now feels the need to explain it away with fictional mechanics that don't exist in-game.
Laughed hard on this one...
Re-read my post couple a times before "imagining" things again. All faction/deadspace gear used to be very rare and not so good stuff, back in the days. CCP has bufffed up faction crap A LOT to make it viable gear and made it an equivalent of WoW alike "purple" gear.
Metas 2-3 are there for invention and minerals mostly. It is more of a resource rather than equipment.
Skill cap is what makes you a specialist. You look at skills from short time perspective...in longer perspective, that "jack of all trade" will become specialist in all fields.
AoW is simply not setup to make any specializations. Everyone will become a master of all...at some point, just like everyone will hit lvl 85 or w/e and gets his raid gear in WoW, repeating the same with each lvl cap raised and new gear introduction.
And your PS just confirmed how you are only theorycrafting and lacking experience/knowledge on topic...
I've played EVE for 7 years I can tell when someone's peeved about something or another and while you keep saying "used to be" the fact of the matter is they still are, their prices are immense and most cannot be used in pvp due to this, in pve they're godsends that's true but in pvp unless you are bathing in isk and wiping your ass with plexes you cannot afford throwaway ships with the superior deadspace/faction modules.
Also saying Meta 2-3 is amusing when I said Meta 4, go read up please.
Also in the long term (60 or so years) everyone in EVE will become a master of all so your logic is flawed. Please refrain from making me pull apart your logic in public like this because it's obvious that if you ever had direct experience with EVE it was wasted on notions of superior gear in a full drop/partial loot system where the economy is as close to real as any game I know of and where money is hard to come by unless you do level 4 missions non-stop or run high class sleeper sites which are risky both in terms of pve and pvp.
There is no finest fail then argument from authority represented by yourself....
Makes no difference since you can fly only 1 ship at a time...as pointed out already.
Only one who fails here is you, sir.
And you can somehow have multiple bodies in AoW with the same character? can you fight with more than 2 blades? Please quit it with the passive aggressive stuff, it's beneath civilized discussion especially when you make no sense and try to make things personal when you're out of arguments.
Isn't it obvious...? You cannot change ship or fittings on the fly on the battle field. In AoW you just need to wait 7s to swap a skill set. And this timer is going to be even reduced, making it even more silly and "power stacking".
What am I supposed to quit? You started that non-sense, I am just throwing it back into your face. You are the one trying to bring it down to personal level...
Alright, lets go into actual detail here.
Youre internal skill determine your stats, it has 36 levels true, you can only have 1 active at a time, each level takes time to level like eve online, except you can meditate, which is basically using gold and other resources to speed up the leveling process.
Gold can be bought with real money, hence you can power level with money. Which makes a big deal when something takes 25 hours a level, and you spend 5minutes because you use gold that is a big advantage.
Your skills also have levels, so while it is skill based, if your skills are level 1 while your enemy is at level 5, he is going to break you.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
How bad is the PvP in this game ?
I must admit i am more a carebear.. i dont mind PvP, but i want it on my terms.. being killed while fighting some PvE mobs.. is not a fancy thing.
And in EVE in medium to high level pvp you have throwaway ships and supercapital ships sitting in system with clone vats and spare ships in their hangars (or alternatively a supercarrier with a clone vat sat at a pos which also has 2-3 corporate hangar arrays chalk full of ships, note clone vats are important if you cannot get out of the area with your pod intact which most decent players can). Merely pointing out the fact that you're looking completely wrong at a game isn't bringing it to a personal level, calling someone "fail" is and considering how badly most bitter vets would've ripped you a new ass hole for some of the downright ignorant things you've said about EVE you've got balls to mouth off to someone who's still being nice ^^.
Gotcha. How much does it cost to powerlevel that badly? And how many people do you see doing it? And how many times has it shifted the course of a major pvp battle? I am not saying that in 1vs1 you're not gonna get ripped a new one but I've yet to see any reports of 1vs1 duels in AoW, most of it seems to have been clan butt love sessions.
I can add more to that.
Not only your internal is capped at lvl 36 but there are 3(4 in CN) internal skills per school. While you can only have 1 active, you basically need to have lower tier internals trained up in order to train higher tier internals.
Once you train our school internal, you "have" to train other school internals in order to unlock and train Meridians. The "threadmill" repeats.
There isn't much choice in here, it is very linear. Also, other school internals are obtainable only via loot.
There is a lot of leveling in the game, some like it but I do not think it is a good design for PVP centered game, it never is.
You sir, are trying too hard but repeating one fallacy over another won't make either right. My point still stands.
It stands about as much as a drunk russian on a unicycle
. You claim the ability to shift out skills in the middle of combat in AoW, ok, how many hits can an enemy get in before the shift is complete? If the number is higher than 0 then you cannot swap out skills in combat anymore or less than you can swap out ships in EVE ( more so considering in EVE a battlefield is an entire solar system, maybe even multiple, ergo swapping out ships within the same solar system as a pvp battle is still technically on the battlefield because at any moment that carrier or POS can come under direct attack but lets not prove how little you know about EVE further, shall we?), how does that work? well in EVE if you eject from a ship in the middle of combat and ask a carrier to drop another one for you you can get sniped ergo nobody even tries it unless it's a nearly won battle and if in AoW you can get hit in the time you shift out skills you can get killed ergo same bloody deal.
None.
You block/dodge/use long animation skill in the time being. You do it actively while in combat.
In order to swap ships in EVE, you need to run/warp away,deagro, dock w/e. It is incomparably more difficult, it is not a combat mechanics.
Yeah, eject in mid combat and lose your ship...brilliant, very much same like in AoW indeed.
I am done discussing with you since it is apparent you have no experience in either game. You just imagine, theorycraft, guess, invent stuff and argue about your invented, false constructions, making the discussion pointless.
For further self-flagelation please check http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Crimewatch, due note which timer prevents you from doing anything and how long it lasts and what triggers it.
The things you just mentioned in AoW sound very much either situational (I doubt you dodge/block always triggers) or an outright exploit of mechanics (trigger a long duration skill while doing something you shouldn't be doing in the middle of combat) and as for the comparison between death in AoW and EVE, I agree: AoW's death penalties are much too lenient.
Now kindly stop it with the personal attacks before I start taking it seriously.
There is a player in my guild, whos the #1 farm, and wood cutter. She cooks and playes music. She never pvp's. When it's time for a battle she organizes the musicians. She plays buff/defuff music the entire time. Thank goodness we have her.
Yes you can be a powerful bard in AoW, and never lift a sword.
..so?
all titles I mentioned had a lot lvling and great pvp
I cannot speak for other titles mentioned but L2 and that rather support my point.
L2 PVP was so great they had to put karma system and other mechanics in place to reduce the level of griefing and ganking. Same story "recently" followed Perpetuum - started as basically FFA PVP and ended up with large non-PVP areas.
AoW force you to PVP against much stronger players by design and that isn't enjoyable for anyone, never was.
The only time I see it being forced is in forbidden instances, and that's normally adjusted by level.
Compulsory PvP =/= Open PvP
Spying, script stealing, wars, fighting over very limited resources, etc.. those you do not consider PVP?