Originally posted by DamonVile Most games that have raiding still have "hard core " guilds. Just look for the guild that thinks of you as a number and couldn't care less if you enjoy your time playing or sit outside the door waiting to be called in. That's hard core raiding...and it's not hard to see why it's died off.
Also look for the guild who recruits everyone that asks, doesn't care if you show up or not to raid, has all the drama in chat and is constantly whining about content being to hard.. that will be the casual guild.
Give me Progression raiding any day of the week.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
1. Is it people who are really into games, and go deep into them? Because Guild Wars 2 certainly feels deep enough to be worth investing some time in, with it's simple-yet-deep build design.
2. Is it people who don't mind having their time wasted? Because several earlier MMORPGs involve big timesinks without big game depth involved in those timesinks, which results in a game where only the "hardcore" (some might use other words) are willing to spend their time there.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Hardmode raids are typically beaten by only the top 3% and the hardest core of the hardest core are sponsored gamers.
Good point, I remember being taken aback when I read a forum full of angry complaints about a raid boss that allowed each party "only" 500 attempts/week to take it down. That was a bit of culture shock for me.
My hardcore consists of diverse and changing content with memorable feelings, not repetitive mashing.
I see WoW raids as playing HARDcore Mario where you try and beat down the same boss, with 3 or 4 different techniques that you have to pattern correctly in-order to be successful.
I see my type of hardcore gameplay as having an immersive world, diverse and changing content/enviroments, active ways to have players interacting in a memorableway: aka not WOW raids, but where you are leading players to find new players and teach them, because it benefits both. In WoW you don't care about that LVL1 who just started and take forever to learn, in games with proper systems such as AC1, you find yourself actively finding other players in the giant world and banding together, your not fighting for spawns ( for 1 lame quest that your troll friend can't complete because he has a totally different quest line which never intersects your character class/race... WOW..cough..), your fighting for your lives and effeciency.
I see hardcore has being a LVL40 Mage against a LVL100 in Asheron's Call and still having a chance at winning, if you zig and zag and use timing correctly, it's call player skill. ~ Not wow where even something like LV20 vs LV26 same class and your getting instaplat nomatter what because he's got dems purples but stands there like an idiot mashing his 1 button.
Originally posted by DamonVile Most games that have raiding still have "hard core " guilds. Just look for the guild that thinks of you as a number and couldn't care less if you enjoy your time playing or sit outside the door waiting to be called in. That's hard core raiding...and it's not hard to see why it's died off.
Also look for the guild who recruits everyone that asks, doesn't care if you show up or not to raid, has all the drama in chat and is constantly whining about content being to hard.. that will be the casual guild.
Give me Progression raiding any day of the week.
Those "random guild invite when you log into your un-guilded level 7 alt" guilds are pretty awesome.
Originally posted by DamonVile Most games that have raiding still have "hard core " guilds. Just look for the guild that thinks of you as a number and couldn't care less if you enjoy your time playing or sit outside the door waiting to be called in. That's hard core raiding...and it's not hard to see why it's died off.
yeah. that is why LFR is a godsend. If i want to raid, i don't want to apply for a spot like a job, and have to commit to a schedule and 'training'. That is not my idea of a good fun game.
Thank god devs realize most players want to play raid content, but don't like the hardcore guild culture.
I prefer the newer category of Mid-core. Players who like challenge but don't have a lot of time.
That is the category I prefer to play in.
Games that do not overly reward players who play ten times more then myself, compete fairly, and still feel like my time was not wasted (character progression) sound mid-core-ish.
Originally posted by DamonVile Most games that have raiding still have "hard core " guilds. Just look for the guild that thinks of you as a number and couldn't care less if you enjoy your time playing or sit outside the door waiting to be called in. That's hard core raiding...and it's not hard to see why it's died off.
Also look for the guild who recruits everyone that asks, doesn't care if you show up or not to raid, has all the drama in chat and is constantly whining about content being to hard.. that will be the casual guild.
Give me Progression raiding any day of the week.
When you have no job or life outside of games you probably can raid any day of the week. Progression through content isn't synonymous with treating people like pawns though. It's only that way when you let it be.
Originally posted by DamonVile Originally posted by KrimzinOriginally posted by DamonVileMost games that have raiding still have "hard core " guilds. Just look for the guild that thinks of you as a number and couldn't care less if you enjoy your time playing or sit outside the door waiting to be called in. That's hard core raiding...and it's not hard to see why it's died off.
Also look for the guild who recruits everyone that asks, doesn't care if you show up or not to raid, has all the drama in chat and is constantly whining about content being to hard.. that will be the casual guild.Give me Progression raiding any day of the week.When you have no job or life outside of games you probably can raid any day of the week. Progression through content isn't synonymous with treating people like pawns though. It's only that way when you let it be.
I have a life outside gaming. Im married, work full time and even do Car Shows on the side. Yet I still consider myself a hardcore gamer because I will commit the time it takes to do Progression Raiding. Its like anything else in life.. If its worth doing, its worth doing right.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
Is that why you guys are doing nothing but repeatedly flogging the very dead horse here?
No matter. I will help you pass the time, but only when i have a slow day at work. When i am at home (particularly the weekends), i will be enjoying all the games (and some MMOs) and probably have less time to keep you company.
I think it is because flogging the dead horse reminds bitter hardcore oldtimers of their leveling experience in EQ when it was first released. Grinding forum threads for a hardcore game is the ONLY remaining hardcore game left.
Oh well, Wildstar is sounding like it will be reasonably hard. Maybe that will keep people happy for a while.
Originally posted by DamonVileMost games that have raiding still have "hard core " guilds. Just look for the guild that thinks of you as a number and couldn't care less if you enjoy your time playing or sit outside the door waiting to be called in. That's hard core raiding...and it's not hard to see why it's died off.
Also look for the guild who recruits everyone that asks, doesn't care if you show up or not to raid, has all the drama in chat and is constantly whining about content being to hard.. that will be the casual guild.Give me Progression raiding any day of the week.
When you have no job or life outside of games you probably can raid any day of the week. Progression through content isn't synonymous with treating people like pawns though. It's only that way when you let it be.
I have a life outside gaming. Im married, work full time and even do Car Shows on the side. Yet I still consider myself a hardcore gamer because I will commit the time it takes to do Progression Raiding. Its like anything else in life.. If its worth doing, its worth doing right.
raiding so you can look down on "casuals" isn't doing it right ( your post above ). It's doing it because you're missing something they already have.
Originally posted by DamonVileMost games that have raiding still have "hard core " guilds. Just look for the guild that thinks of you as a number and couldn't care less if you enjoy your time playing or sit outside the door waiting to be called in. That's hard core raiding...and it's not hard to see why it's died off.
yeah. that is why LFR is a godsend. If i want to raid, i don't want to apply for a spot like a job, and have to commit to a schedule and 'training'. That is not my idea of a good fun game.
Thank god devs realize most players want to play raid content, but don't like the hardcore guild culture.
[mod edit]
Don't make it sound like beating a raid boss in a game is a real achievement. That is an illusion. Raid bosses are there for your entertainment. Publish a scientific paper, write a book, found a company .. those are real achievements. Playing games are not.
But if you get your epleen in games, you should play D3 hardcore naked and when you get to paragon 100, you can boast to the world that you spend your life making the top of .. yes .. a game.
Meanwhile, i will just have fun being entertained by games.
Developers should stop catering so much to casuals and start making content and games that require some sort of thought, some strategy and furthermore teamwork! Also, I hate to hear this "Well I can't play for hours on end grinding for particular gear, so it should be easier!"
Look, if you don't have the time to commit to an MMO then you shouldn't play an MMO, simple.
So many things wrong with this post.
Developers are not obligated to cater to anyone just because you say so. if they decide their core audience is now the casuals, it is their prerogative, and they can cater their game to anyone they want.
Secondly, i don't commit to any MMO, and i do play them. They are entertainment products, and i use them as i see fit, not what you think how i should play games. It is the devs that put in great features like LFD .. obviously trying to get my play-time. I don't see any reason not to play a MMO, on short spurts, if it is fun.
I'm pretty sure I have quoted/disagreed with you before. But I very much agree with this. People seem to be oblivious to the fact that the amount of MMO players have been increasing annually. That means that as a collective whole, the MMO industry is doing something right with the MMOs they are making. People shouldn't expect to like all of the games coming out. That's not how it works.
I have a life outside gaming. Im married, work full time and even do Car Shows on the side. Yet I still consider myself a hardcore gamer because I will commit the time it takes to do Progression Raiding. Its like anything else in life.. If its worth doing, its worth doing right.
Playing a game is not worth the commitment, nor time. Yes, doing it "right" .. for me .. means have fun without committing my life.
In fact, taking major time away from family and career, just to play a game, now .. that is not doing it right.
Developers should stop catering so much to casuals and start making content and games that require some sort of thought, some strategy and furthermore teamwork! Also, I hate to hear this "Well I can't play for hours on end grinding for particular gear, so it should be easier!"
Look, if you don't have the time to commit to an MMO then you shouldn't play an MMO, simple.
So many things wrong with this post.
Developers are not obligated to cater to anyone just because you say so. if they decide their core audience is now the casuals, it is their prerogative, and they can cater their game to anyone they want.
Secondly, i don't commit to any MMO, and i do play them. They are entertainment products, and i use them as i see fit, not what you think how i should play games. It is the devs that put in great features like LFD .. obviously trying to get my play-time. I don't see any reason not to play a MMO, on short spurts, if it is fun.
I'm pretty sure I have quoted/disagreed with you before. But I very much agree with this. People seem to be oblivious to the fact that the amount of MMO players have been increasing annually. That means that as a collective whole, the MMO industry is doing something right with the MMOs they are making. People shouldn't expect to like all of the games coming out. That's not how it works.
I see it like this, on the whole the world is getting excessively lazy and ignorant, we ingest billions of tons of plastic and burn many brain damaging carcinogens.
The MMO "industry" is doing what "industry" does best, its making the market as widely available in-order to maximize profits... therefor we are gettings game like WOW, EQ2 ect, that cater to your 10 year old, your aunt and your grandpa...
Whereas true MMORPG innovators were college and technical nerds, live action role play fans who wanted to play something "Awesome"!.
Population of gamers is MASSIVELY larger than 10 years ago.
Games are now being played by housewives, pensioners, athletes... you name it. People that used to be very hard to imagine playing any kinds of computer games.
Why? Because games are now accessible. Accessible by being available on mobile platforms, or accessible by being SIMPLER to use, EASIER to play.
Every developer wants a "piece of that action", and becoming a rich games developer seems to be easier than before.
...and of course by targeting the much smaller "hardcore" gaming population, that developer has a smaller chance to become rich.
Developers should stop catering so much to casuals and start making content and games that require some sort of thought, some strategy and furthermore teamwork! Also, I hate to hear this "Well I can't play for hours on end grinding for particular gear, so it should be easier!"
Look, if you don't have the time to commit to an MMO then you shouldn't play an MMO, simple.
...
my 2 cents...
And here is mine. The real reason MMOs became a lot more "friendly" is simply because developers make games that they want to play. Those same developers have actual jobs and rewarding real lives and as a consequence want to/have to spend some of their precious time at work, with spouses/family etc. Why would they make a game that no normal working person has any time for. They are normal working people. So they stripped MMOs of the the time wasting details and as a result a LOT more people started to play MMOs. And if truth be told more people than not enjoyed them even more.
There isn't any going back. Now that most players know that their MMOs need not be torturous and grindy in order to get 5 minutes of fun every now and then, games with long grinds and punishing mechanics don't stand a chance.
But you are certainly welcome to take your grievance to the message boards and complain loudly about how this generation of "carebares" ruined gaming. A good dose of chest thumping and reinforced groupthink from the "veteran" basement dwellers should fill that empty place in heart for a time. But you have a good extra 80 hours a week now to spend so maybe fostering other activities would help fill that hole.
Just a suggestion but in case you didn't know with 80 hours a week you can become damm near an expert in ANY activity in about 2 years. Go to hit up Khan academy or Cousra and get software development skills. Then hit up Unity3d for a free engine and make your own hardcore MMO. However I will warn you, once you don't have 80 hours extra a week to spend playing an MMO you might not like hardcore MMOs anymore, and just like every other developer, eliminate all the pointless "hardcore" filler components from your game.
EQ and iRO honestly were the only two grindy time consuming hardcore games I've played. I have yet to come across a game as long winded as RO. It took me a year and a half to max my first character. And I played a lot. I honestly wish there was a /played for the accounts I had so I could figure out just how much time i spent on the game.
Which is both shameful and awesome at the same time I imagine.
We're only going to get that kind of game back if we find one we can kickstart that manages to keep away from money grabbing.
I have absolutely no interest in helping fund/further development of "your" game.
It's perfectly understandable that you feel the same way about "my" games .
I fail to see a problem here!
Signed
Mr. Casual.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
Originally posted by VikingGamer You want a really hardcore game? Try raising children with a high maintenance redhead that has BPD and daddy issues. That game will bust you.
MMMMM Redheads.. Ill pass on the BPD and DI.
Thanks
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
Comments
Also look for the guild who recruits everyone that asks, doesn't care if you show up or not to raid, has all the drama in chat and is constantly whining about content being to hard.. that will be the casual guild.
Give me Progression raiding any day of the week.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
How are we defining hardcore?
1. Is it people who are really into games, and go deep into them? Because Guild Wars 2 certainly feels deep enough to be worth investing some time in, with it's simple-yet-deep build design.
2. Is it people who don't mind having their time wasted? Because several earlier MMORPGs involve big timesinks without big game depth involved in those timesinks, which results in a game where only the "hardcore" (some might use other words) are willing to spend their time there.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
My hardcore consists of diverse and changing content with memorable feelings, not repetitive mashing.
I see WoW raids as playing HARDcore Mario where you try and beat down the same boss, with 3 or 4 different techniques that you have to pattern correctly in-order to be successful.
I see my type of hardcore gameplay as having an immersive world, diverse and changing content/enviroments, active ways to have players interacting in a memorableway: aka not WOW raids, but where you are leading players to find new players and teach them, because it benefits both. In WoW you don't care about that LVL1 who just started and take forever to learn, in games with proper systems such as AC1, you find yourself actively finding other players in the giant world and banding together, your not fighting for spawns ( for 1 lame quest that your troll friend can't complete because he has a totally different quest line which never intersects your character class/race... WOW..cough..), your fighting for your lives and effeciency.
I see hardcore has being a LVL40 Mage against a LVL100 in Asheron's Call and still having a chance at winning, if you zig and zag and use timing correctly, it's call player skill. ~ Not wow where even something like LV20 vs LV26 same class and your getting instaplat nomatter what because he's got dems purples but stands there like an idiot mashing his 1 button.
Those "random guild invite when you log into your un-guilded level 7 alt" guilds are pretty awesome.
yeah. that is why LFR is a godsend. If i want to raid, i don't want to apply for a spot like a job, and have to commit to a schedule and 'training'. That is not my idea of a good fun game.
Thank god devs realize most players want to play raid content, but don't like the hardcore guild culture.
I prefer the newer category of Mid-core. Players who like challenge but don't have a lot of time.
That is the category I prefer to play in.
Games that do not overly reward players who play ten times more then myself, compete fairly, and still feel like my time was not wasted (character progression) sound mid-core-ish.
That sounds just about right.
WL
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
When you have no job or life outside of games you probably can raid any day of the week. Progression through content isn't synonymous with treating people like pawns though. It's only that way when you let it be.
When you have no job or life outside of games you probably can raid any day of the week. Progression through content isn't synonymous with treating people like pawns though. It's only that way when you let it be.
I have a life outside gaming. Im married, work full time and even do Car Shows on the side. Yet I still consider myself a hardcore gamer because I will commit the time it takes to do Progression Raiding. Its like anything else in life.. If its worth doing, its worth doing right.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
Weren't we already tired of this nonsense before the turn of the century?
I think it is because flogging the dead horse reminds bitter hardcore oldtimers of their leveling experience in EQ when it was first released. Grinding forum threads for a hardcore game is the ONLY remaining hardcore game left.
Oh well, Wildstar is sounding like it will be reasonably hard. Maybe that will keep people happy for a while.
All die, so die well.
raiding so you can look down on "casuals" isn't doing it right ( your post above ). It's doing it because you're missing something they already have.
Don't make it sound like beating a raid boss in a game is a real achievement. That is an illusion. Raid bosses are there for your entertainment. Publish a scientific paper, write a book, found a company .. those are real achievements. Playing games are not.
But if you get your epleen in games, you should play D3 hardcore naked and when you get to paragon 100, you can boast to the world that you spend your life making the top of .. yes .. a game.
Meanwhile, i will just have fun being entertained by games.
I'm pretty sure I have quoted/disagreed with you before. But I very much agree with this. People seem to be oblivious to the fact that the amount of MMO players have been increasing annually. That means that as a collective whole, the MMO industry is doing something right with the MMOs they are making. People shouldn't expect to like all of the games coming out. That's not how it works.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Playing a game is not worth the commitment, nor time. Yes, doing it "right" .. for me .. means have fun without committing my life.
In fact, taking major time away from family and career, just to play a game, now .. that is not doing it right.
I see it like this, on the whole the world is getting excessively lazy and ignorant, we ingest billions of tons of plastic and burn many brain damaging carcinogens.
The MMO "industry" is doing what "industry" does best, its making the market as widely available in-order to maximize profits... therefor we are gettings game like WOW, EQ2 ect, that cater to your 10 year old, your aunt and your grandpa...
Whereas true MMORPG innovators were college and technical nerds, live action role play fans who wanted to play something "Awesome"!.
You know what I mean??
Quoted (sorta) for sheer ridiculousness.
Population of gamers is MASSIVELY larger than 10 years ago.
Games are now being played by housewives, pensioners, athletes... you name it. People that used to be very hard to imagine playing any kinds of computer games.
Why? Because games are now accessible. Accessible by being available on mobile platforms, or accessible by being SIMPLER to use, EASIER to play.
Every developer wants a "piece of that action", and becoming a rich games developer seems to be easier than before.
...and of course by targeting the much smaller "hardcore" gaming population, that developer has a smaller chance to become rich.
NEW IDEAS that can refresh the STALE state of MMORPGs
You want a really hardcore game?
Try raising children with a high maintenance redhead that has BPD and daddy issues. That game will bust you.
All die, so die well.
And here is mine. The real reason MMOs became a lot more "friendly" is simply because developers make games that they want to play. Those same developers have actual jobs and rewarding real lives and as a consequence want to/have to spend some of their precious time at work, with spouses/family etc. Why would they make a game that no normal working person has any time for. They are normal working people. So they stripped MMOs of the the time wasting details and as a result a LOT more people started to play MMOs. And if truth be told more people than not enjoyed them even more.
There isn't any going back. Now that most players know that their MMOs need not be torturous and grindy in order to get 5 minutes of fun every now and then, games with long grinds and punishing mechanics don't stand a chance.
But you are certainly welcome to take your grievance to the message boards and complain loudly about how this generation of "carebares" ruined gaming. A good dose of chest thumping and reinforced groupthink from the "veteran" basement dwellers should fill that empty place in heart for a time. But you have a good extra 80 hours a week now to spend so maybe fostering other activities would help fill that hole.
Just a suggestion but in case you didn't know with 80 hours a week you can become damm near an expert in ANY activity in about 2 years. Go to hit up Khan academy or Cousra and get software development skills. Then hit up Unity3d for a free engine and make your own hardcore MMO. However I will warn you, once you don't have 80 hours extra a week to spend playing an MMO you might not like hardcore MMOs anymore, and just like every other developer, eliminate all the pointless "hardcore" filler components from your game.
EQ and iRO honestly were the only two grindy time consuming hardcore games I've played. I have yet to come across a game as long winded as RO. It took me a year and a half to max my first character. And I played a lot. I honestly wish there was a /played for the accounts I had so I could figure out just how much time i spent on the game.
Which is both shameful and awesome at the same time I imagine.
We're only going to get that kind of game back if we find one we can kickstart that manages to keep away from money grabbing.
Careful there, KNO3 is not kind to your bod. The sulfur does you no good either, I imagine.
"Awesome" to them may not be "awesome" to me.
Dear Mr. Hardcore.
I have absolutely no interest in helping fund/further development of "your" game.
It's perfectly understandable that you feel the same way about "my" games .
I fail to see a problem here!
Signed
Mr. Casual.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
Yeh. Add to that, there is no "quitting" button on raising kids, at least not to me.
MMMMM Redheads.. Ill pass on the BPD and DI.
Thanks
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station