Maybe it's that they aren't that complicated and they're free(not saying this is a bad thing btw).
I would like to hear what game you play that is more complicated than Dota. Look up this guy . 1 Champ alone I think has somewhere in the 1000nd range for spell combo possibilities.
They're not complicated to learn. They are to master.
^^ Should be the goal of every MMO, (Emphasis Added)
Not really. I would rather learn more complicated thing then perfect simple one. Its more interesting for me
Well the point is, when you begin to master it, you realize just how complicated it actually is. I believe that is the point.
In a way, its kind of like Chess. You can teach somebody how to play chess in a few hours. The game isn't very complicated to learn. But does that mean that individual will be mastering Chess just as quickly? Of course not.
At its core, MOBAS are just tower defense games with creeps. Easy to understand. But then you start seeing the multiple layers of the game and how it can become more and more complex. Thus, easy to learn, but difficult to master.
Cause it's the best e-sport out there and you can get paid for it if you're good enough. But on a lower level it's just for fun and even competition amongst friends or even randoms if you want. I don't really get why it's as popular as it is either. I'm a total noob at them and either always go in and suicide myself a lot of times or keep training in the jungle / on enemy minions.
Simply the time and the changing playerbase... you'll see more and more of that "I don't get it" feelings as the years passing
Like the rts you wrote, it was a thing I didn't get since Dune2... which was a nice game, but with the clones of TA, C&C and the two crapCraft the idea was chewed to the bone. Then someone figured out that calling them Dune2-clones is not good marketing-wise, and because from a far distance, in dim light, looking with one eye only they're a bit similar to strategy games, let's call them real-time strategies (LOL) and the steamroll is going since then (see that poster who wrote about "the traditional rts" yeah, right, it has even traditions now )
It happens all the time in every genre, like fps's turned into cover-fighting, auto-heal craps without any exploration part (not to mention the non-existant map design), adventures are more or less just interactive movies now, with running forward in a tube, cutscene, QTE, cutscene, go forward, etc...
I agree with you on the DotA clones, only I thought that even DotA was lame in the first place. It was funny to see that when the clones became popular, like in rts's case they came up with the name MOBA for the "genre" - like it'd make their quality any better
Since changing is part of the process, I guess it's all normal. I don't "get" it either (hairy potter was also a good example) I just accept that those stuff are popular nowadays for some reason. You don't have to touch those games even with a 10foot stick if you don't like them...
Simply the time and the changing playerbase... you'll see more and more of that "I don't get it" feelings as the years passing
Like the rts you wrote, it was a thing I didn't get since Dune2... which was a nice game, but with the clones of TA, C&C and the two crapCraft the idea was chewed to the bone. Then someone figured out that calling them Dune2-clones is not good marketing-wise, and because from a far distance, in dim light, looking with one eye only they're a bit similar to strategy games, let's call them real-time strategies (LOL) and the steamroll is going since then (see that poster who wrote about "the traditional rts" yeah, right, it has even traditions now )
It happens all the time in every genre, like fps's turned into cover-fighting, auto-heal craps without any exploration part (not to mention the non-existant map design), adventures are more or less just interactive movies now, with running forward in a tube, cutscene, QTE, cutscene, go forward, etc...
I agree with you on the DotA clones, only I thought that even DotA was lame in the first place. It was funny to see that when the clones became popular, like in rts's case they came up with the name MOBA for the "genre" - like it'd make their quality any better
Since changing is part of the process, I guess it's all normal. I don't "get" it either (hairy potter was also a good example) I just accept that those stuff are popular nowadays for some reason. You don't have to touch those games even with a 10foot stick if you don't like them...
I nominate this post for post of the month? year maybe? week? Either way, excellent post, agreed on all points.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
moba was just a term they made up so lol and other games wouldn't be referred to as 'dota clones'. A multiplayer battle arena game says very little about the scope of the game.
As for why these games are popular? I can tell you why I played d2 and hon for years (around 4000 matches combined). The games always have a wide arbitrary level of complexity to them due to having over 100 useable heroes to play with. Most of them can be very very different to eachother in terms of gameplay and tend to fullfil very niche roles within the game. There's also a certain level of 'skill' when it comes to playing said characters (rather low skillcap though) or mindgames with lane control with lasthits and denies but in the end the game is more about decision making then anything else. There are endless team setups with the hundred+ possible classes, and each class can completly change their role according to farm priority within the game.
Added to that, there can be several possible lane layouts (2+1+2,3+1+1,1+2+2,2+1+1+1) and several ways to itemnize during a game. The items themselves also add another degree of depht due to how certain actives can completly change a hero's gameplay within a game (bkb,drum,blink). In the end, these are usually games that combine both a high level of strategical depht but also play in real time (i.e no turn based combat). The fast paced gameplay (esp. hon) really makes for an enjoyable game and matches can be very differently from another (i.e no stagnant or predetermined strategies that sheeps like to follow). In the end, the gameplay can be very creative due to how the drafting and heroes work.
A game like this also calls for big balance changes every 6 months or so, meaning that players always have a reason to come back to try out and perfect how a new strategy works. They are also one of the few f2p game types that aren't p2w (a p2w game on this model would be a complete failure).
Can't really speak for why lol is so popular, though. I've played around 100 games and it felt like a stagnant watered down version of dota to me. Both gameplay and character design were very bland, redundant and symmetrical. It seemed inferior to dota in pretty much every single aspect (except being easier to play or hitting the skillcap fast enough that a lot of the general audience can be pros).
OP, I also have no idea why there's such a MOBA sensation. My gf plays LoL every day. I tried to get into it, I just cannot. Maybe it's because I'm a MMORPG player? I just hate building up a character for 20-50 minutes and then having to start over from scratch. (but there's skill trees! not the same, not even close)
I have a similar background in RTS games as you, OP. That said, MOBA's just aren't for me. I don't get it either, don't understand how so many are entertained by them for hours on end. We most likely never will "get it." It's just preference I guess. As much as it seems like people are just easily entertained.
Originally posted by Gorwe I hate how necessary it is in MMOs to level in order to get to the fun part otoh. I happen to think that whole game should be fun(but Hey! Maybe that's MOBA/single player game fan speaking from me). It's like wtf should I spend 50 days getting to the fun part if I can have it in 5 minutes?
MMOs are really obsolete/antiquated. They either evolve/adapt ASAP or they'll be left in the old toys chest alongside the adventure games. The other way to achieve this is to bring back the RPG part to the MMO part(MMOs today are just that-MMOs. Meanwhile they should be MMORPGs). Without any of those-good lukk! There's no shiney bridges fer ya!
Plus, Jarvan is way more cool than most of the things we are allowed to create in MMOs anyhow .
If you don't have fun questing/leveling you probably won't stick with the game. I really enjoyed playing WoW back in the day and leveling up to cap, but I hated the endgame. I really enjoyed leveling in old school ffxi (yes it was brutal to some degree). I don't see how someone can play a game for the endgame when they hate the entire game before that. You haven't found a mmorpg that had a good leveling experience to you, and honestly I can't say I disagree. The current crop of mmorpgs these days are mostly shit. All these games are trying to do too many things and appeal to too wide variety of audiences. Take me back to 2006ish; old school FFXI, old school WoW, SWG, EVE, EQ/2 (and many more to count). Those games the way they were back then were awesome. Now they're all changed.
Comments
Well the point is, when you begin to master it, you realize just how complicated it actually is. I believe that is the point.
In a way, its kind of like Chess. You can teach somebody how to play chess in a few hours. The game isn't very complicated to learn. But does that mean that individual will be mastering Chess just as quickly? Of course not.
At its core, MOBAS are just tower defense games with creeps. Easy to understand. But then you start seeing the multiple layers of the game and how it can become more and more complex. Thus, easy to learn, but difficult to master.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Simply the time and the changing playerbase... you'll see more and more of that "I don't get it" feelings as the years passing
Like the rts you wrote, it was a thing I didn't get since Dune2... which was a nice game, but with the clones of TA, C&C and the two crapCraft the idea was chewed to the bone. Then someone figured out that calling them Dune2-clones is not good marketing-wise, and because from a far distance, in dim light, looking with one eye only they're a bit similar to strategy games, let's call them real-time strategies (LOL) and the steamroll is going since then (see that poster who wrote about "the traditional rts" yeah, right, it has even traditions now
)
It happens all the time in every genre, like fps's turned into cover-fighting, auto-heal craps without any exploration part (not to mention the non-existant map design), adventures are more or less just interactive movies now, with running forward in a tube, cutscene, QTE, cutscene, go forward, etc...
I agree with you on the DotA clones, only I thought that even DotA was lame in the first place. It was funny to see that when the clones became popular, like in rts's case they came up with the name MOBA for the "genre" - like it'd make their quality any better
Since changing is part of the process, I guess it's all normal. I don't "get" it either (hairy potter was also a good example) I just accept that those stuff are popular nowadays for some reason. You don't have to touch those games even with a 10foot stick if you don't like them...
Edit: as an old joke shows: http://digitalbattle.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/BITmX.jpg
Seriously, how could games took a turn into this? Let's give the finger to today's fps maps from '94 (yep, almost 20 years ago...) http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100622232040/doom/images/f/f1/No_Rest_for_the_Living_Map05.png
I nominate this post for post of the month? year maybe? week? Either way, excellent post, agreed on all points.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
moba was just a term they made up so lol and other games wouldn't be referred to as 'dota clones'. A multiplayer battle arena game says very little about the scope of the game.
As for why these games are popular? I can tell you why I played d2 and hon for years (around 4000 matches combined). The games always have a wide arbitrary level of complexity to them due to having over 100 useable heroes to play with. Most of them can be very very different to eachother in terms of gameplay and tend to fullfil very niche roles within the game. There's also a certain level of 'skill' when it comes to playing said characters (rather low skillcap though) or mindgames with lane control with lasthits and denies but in the end the game is more about decision making then anything else. There are endless team setups with the hundred+ possible classes, and each class can completly change their role according to farm priority within the game.
Added to that, there can be several possible lane layouts (2+1+2,3+1+1,1+2+2,2+1+1+1) and several ways to itemnize during a game. The items themselves also add another degree of depht due to how certain actives can completly change a hero's gameplay within a game (bkb,drum,blink). In the end, these are usually games that combine both a high level of strategical depht but also play in real time (i.e no turn based combat). The fast paced gameplay (esp. hon) really makes for an enjoyable game and matches can be very differently from another (i.e no stagnant or predetermined strategies that sheeps like to follow). In the end, the gameplay can be very creative due to how the drafting and heroes work.
A game like this also calls for big balance changes every 6 months or so, meaning that players always have a reason to come back to try out and perfect how a new strategy works. They are also one of the few f2p game types that aren't p2w (a p2w game on this model would be a complete failure).
Can't really speak for why lol is so popular, though. I've played around 100 games and it felt like a stagnant watered down version of dota to me. Both gameplay and character design were very bland, redundant and symmetrical. It seemed inferior to dota in pretty much every single aspect (except being easier to play or hitting the skillcap fast enough that a lot of the general audience can be pros).
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
If you don't have fun questing/leveling you probably won't stick with the game. I really enjoyed playing WoW back in the day and leveling up to cap, but I hated the endgame. I really enjoyed leveling in old school ffxi (yes it was brutal to some degree). I don't see how someone can play a game for the endgame when they hate the entire game before that. You haven't found a mmorpg that had a good leveling experience to you, and honestly I can't say I disagree. The current crop of mmorpgs these days are mostly shit. All these games are trying to do too many things and appeal to too wide variety of audiences. Take me back to 2006ish; old school FFXI, old school WoW, SWG, EVE, EQ/2 (and many more to count). Those games the way they were back then were awesome. Now they're all changed.