What helps drive a good communty and are they a thing of the past?

kellian1

Was just thinking about this today running around Neverwinter (until EQnext comes) and just in general, thinking about all the MMO's I've played since EQ and EQ2.

 

The community aspect of MMO's seems to be sorely lacking. Maybe it's just me getting older, maybe it's real, maybe people just don't care like they used to about that sort of stuff, or maybe its just the way the games are made now. The community in EQ and EQ2, I thought, were spot on. Yeah you had your drama guilds, and some people who took the game WAY to seriously, but for the most part finding a good PUG (when the guild wasn't around), trading, even new players asking for help from nice, knowledgeable folks was common, not the exception to the rule like it seems like today.

 

The only decent community like this I have been a part of since the EQ/EQ2 (pre FTP) days was LotRo and granted it was a role play server. That community was nice, helpful and for the most part enjoyed that sense of community. Now to be fair, I can't lump every single person of every single game into this (naturally), I'm just using my experience and saying the curve has changed. Where it was common to find this type of player before, now it seems increasingly rare and the exception rather than the rule.

 

What changed? What can Eqnext do to bring back that community feeling? Is there anything they can do or is it symptomatic of the modern MMO landscape and player?

 

Waterlily

It's real, the communities in MMO are far far worse than they used to be.

 

Everquest had a few things going for it that drove the community:

 

-the gameplay was slow and tab based, you chatted during combat, none of this action button mashing

-you camped during combat, you didn't run around looking for mobs, you made a static camp and pulled mobs to it, which allowed you to chat <- this is a major reason I think

-massive amounts of downtime while regaining health or mana compared to today's standards

-you were forced to group with most classes

-there was a server chat, not just a local chat

-you were severely punished if you died, which made you seek out help

-you had no AH like in WoW in the beginning of EQ, you were forced to talk to others if you wanted to have an item

-the gameplay in early EQ was easy and simple, it was slow and time-consuming and it severely punished death, but it was easy to play for anyone

-travel was slow in a huge world, you had to run for miles and often stayed at a camp for days, you were forced to interact with people

 

There's more reasons, but I think those were the main ones.

 

nerovipus32

Things like world firsts and dungeon speed runs have destroyed mmo communities..it's now all about the individual and not the group. Everyone is competing against each other rather than working together to create a better community atmosphere.

nerovipus32

Let players create their path don't create it for them or else everyone will just zombie walk down that predefined path set in front of them.

Gallus85

Originally posted by Waterlily

It's real, the communities in MMO are far far worse than they used to be.

 

Everquest had a few things going for it that drove the community:

 

-the gameplay was slow and tab based, you chatted during combat

-you were forcded to group with most classes

-there was a server chat, not just a local chat

-you were severely punished if you died, which made you seek out help

-you had no AH like in WoW in the beginning of EQ, you were forced to talk to others if you wanted to have an item

-the gameplay in early EQ was easy and simple, it was slow and time-consuming and it severely punished death, but it was easy to play for anyone

 

 

There's more reasons, but I think those were the main ones.

 

Ya the main reasons behind the community was the severity of the game and required group play.  

Just about every class couldn't solo.  A lot of the loot was unobtainable solo (because kiting in dungeons was a death wish in most cases), so you had to make friend and socialize to progress your character from 1 to cap, not just at end game.

The corpse runs and severe death penalty was the main contributor of the great community.  If you were that guy screaming racist remarks in OOC, you were going to have a bad day getting your corpse out of the bottom of a dungeon.

I'd say personal trading might have helped a little bit, but really, you could get away with spamming your wares in EC tunnel with price, meeting and being on your way.

Overall, the exp loss, corpse runs and required group content really brought the community together.

Are those days gone? They are, but I don't think they're gone for good.  I feel that a lot of the core community strengthening mechanics (like the death penalty and group content) can be modernized to appeal to a new, broader audience, while still having the same effect.

August 2nd.

DamonVile

If the game doesn't appeal to people who think they're entitled to everything and are willing to put effort into earning what they get, will probably attract people who are willing to put effort into creating a better community. These games that are filled with people who have no use for anyone other than to get what they want as fast as possible, could care less if the game has it or not.

Making people need each other and force then to communicate may not be viable in an mmo anymore. Which may also mean that communities aren't either.

Braindome

Originally posted by Waterlily

It's real, the communities in MMO are far far worse than they used to be.

 

Everquest had a few things going for it that drove the community:

 

-the gameplay was slow and tab based, you chatted during combat, none of this action button mashing

-you camped during combat, you didn't run around looking for mobs, you made a static camp and pulled mobs to it, which allowed you to chat <- this is a major reason I think

-massive amounts of downtime while regaining health or mana compared to today's standards

-you were forced to group with most classes

-there was a server chat, not just a local chat

-you were severely punished if you died, which made you seek out help

-you had no AH like in WoW in the beginning of EQ, you were forced to talk to others if you wanted to have an item

-the gameplay in early EQ was easy and simple, it was slow and time-consuming and it severely punished death, but it was easy to play for anyone

-travel was slow in a huge world, you had to run for miles and often stayed at a camp for days, you were forced to interact with people

 

There's more reasons, but I think those were the main ones.

 

This. Just set the stage and the players will work together and many good points here on how to set the stage.

Boneserino

I dunno I find communities are what you make of them.   I think if you look hard enough there are good people to play with in any game, you just have to find them.  Takes some work, thats for sure,  but any game I have played, I have never had trouble finding good people.

As for the rest, the ignore button is every games best feature!

IG-88

In one word: interdependability

exwin

The near god like characters of modern mmos have eliminated the need to play with others. Why group when you (in wow) or you and your pet (swtor) can take out 4-7 at level mobs.

in EQ you felt good if you could hold a camp. You would gain familiarity with other people and eventually lasting friendships and regular group members.

Waterlily

Originally posted by Boneserino

I dunno I find communities are what you make of them.   I think if you look hard enough there are good people to play with in any game, you just have to find them.  Takes some work, thats for sure,  but any game I have played, I have never had trouble finding good people.

As for the rest, the ignore button is every games best feature!

I think each environment is either beneficial or detrimental to a community.

In hospitals they make people who are severely lacking in social contact, sit around with a few chairs, and they create an environment that allows you to make friends. This isn't a joke or fantasy, that's how many psychologists help people in major hospitals around the world.

To create a community, you need a specific environment, willingness to communicate is just a small part of the puzzle, you also need the right environment.

Telondariel

Originally posted by Waterlily

It's real, the communities in MMO are far far worse than they used to be.

 

Everquest had a few things going for it that drove the community:

 

-the gameplay was slow and tab based, you chatted during combat

-massive amounts of downtime while regaining health or mana compared to today's standards

-you were forced to group with most classes

-there was a server chat, not just a local chat

-you were severely punished if you died, which made you seek out help

-you had no AH like in WoW in the beginning of EQ, you were forced to talk to others if you wanted to have an item

-the gameplay in early EQ was easy and simple, it was slow and time-consuming and it severely punished death, but it was easy to play for anyone

-travel was slow in a huge world, you had to run for miles and often stayed at a camp for days, you were forced to interact with people

 

There's more reasons, but I think those were the main ones.

 

Very spot on.  After MMORPG's really caught on with the WoW anomoly, it became a matter of undoing all of the above to make it accessible to the masses.  8 year old's can easily play with the new MMO design.  Its no longer about working long hours at a game, get punished if you aren't aware, developing good communication skills to succeed, etc.  The genre has evolved to be pretty, easy, convenient on every level, so that anyone can play them.  Its no longer the niche market for old school D&D fans who had their 3D game realized; now its a corporate tool to rake in millions from as many demographics as possible.

 

Now, in the light of that, there is still community out there.  EQ and EQ2 are still pretty good, I hear EVE is good but I haven't touched it at all.  I'm sure there are others.  For the most part, people have retreated to guilds and built their own pocket communities, especially in games like WoW where the general population can seem quite toxic.    If EQN lives up to the expectations of the EQ fans, I have no doubts it will build and foster good community as well.

 

joeri123

Originally posted by Boneserino

I dunno I find communities are what you make of them.   I think if you look hard enough there are good people to play with in any game, you just have to find them.  Takes some work, thats for sure,  but any game I have played, I have never had trouble finding good people.

As for the rest, the ignore button is every games best feature!

It's not about finding good people. It's about the trend of communities that are going to shit. 

I really don't have the time nor do I want to put in the effort to weed through thousands of stupid people just to find a few good people to play with.

I think that's why I remember the early days of WoW so well and look back to it fondly. Not that the game was super great, but the fact that the community was much more awesome than it is today. My friendlist was packed with awesome people to play with.

gakule

Originally posted by Waterlily

 

-there was a server chat, not just a local chat

 

This came quite a while after release (PoP expansion I believe?) and IMO was a detriment to the game more than a benefit. It was like walking into a major city in WoW and getting bombarded by the idiotic bickering of WoW's trade chat channel that spans the entire server for all major cities.

Gallus85

Originally posted by Boneserino

I dunno I find communities are what you make of them.   I think if you look hard enough there are good people to play with in any game, you just have to find them.  Takes some work, thats for sure,  but any game I have played, I have never had trouble finding good people.

As for the rest, the ignore button is every games best feature!

I agree a lot.  People always talk about "Bad communities", but in the end, I've met tons of great people over the years.  I think EQ made people focus more on being social than other games did, but a lot of MMORPG players are people just like us, looking to make friends and have fun.

People say things like "Games that coddle entitled players creates a bad community", but some of the best community interactions in the past 5 or so years has come from Planetside 2.  A game where you don't really have to "earn" anything and you just log in to play for fun.

Communities are what you make of them, and a lot of people exaggerate how bad some communities actually are.  I think it's be nice to see a return to something a little more rugged when it comes to game play.  Make death hurt a bit.  Don't promote solo game play as being just as efficient or even better than group game play. Things like that.

The community will be what you make of it though, regardless of how the game turns out.

Boneserino

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by Boneserino

I dunno I find communities are what you make of them.   I think if you look hard enough there are good people to play with in any game, you just have to find them.  Takes some work, thats for sure,  but any game I have played, I have never had trouble finding good people.

As for the rest, the ignore button is every games best feature!

I think each environment is either beneficial or detrimental to a community.

In hospitals they make people who are severely lacking in social contact, sit around with a few chairs, and they create an environment that allows you to make friends. This isn't a joke or fantasy, that's how many psychologists help people in major hospitals around the world.

To create a community, you need a specific environment, willingness to communicate is just a small part of the puzzle, you also need the right environment.

  Yes I agree some games are not conducive to good community.  Is that what we are talking about here? 

If that is the case though, and you are concerned about it, then you should probably move to another game.    Yea, not many of them out there, but there are a few.   Of course the problem with designing a game for community means that it will be difficult to play without finding good people. And to some people that is a limitation to prevent them playing the game.  And game developers these days want maximum accessibity for players, more than any other feature, it seems.

Still, you are talking about game design here, not community.   If a game is designed to be played mostly as solo, then why would you expect a good community?  And why would you care?

kellian1

Originally posted by Gallus85

Originally posted by Boneserino

I dunno I find communities are what you make of them.   I think if you look hard enough there are good people to play with in any game, you just have to find them.  Takes some work, thats for sure,  but any game I have played, I have never had trouble finding good people.

As for the rest, the ignore button is every games best feature!

I agree a lot.  People always talk about "Bad communities", but in the end, I've met tons of great people over the years.  I think EQ made people focus more on being social than other games did, but a lot of MMORPG players are people just like us, looking to make friends and have fun.

People say things like "Games that coddle entitled players creates a bad community", but some of the best community interactions in the past 5 or so years has come from Planetside 2.  A game where you don't really have to "earn" anything and you just log in to play for fun.

Communities are what you make of them, and a lot of people exaggerate how bad some communities actually are.  I think it's be nice to see a return to something a little more rugged when it comes to game play.  Make death hurt a bit.  Don't promote solo game play as being just as efficient or even better than group game play. Things like that.

The community will be what you make of it though, regardless of how the game turns out.

I find some truth in this. There is always the option of just not dealing with people who don't fit your style of play or personality. I think the harder the game is, as others have mentioned, it helps weed out some and makes players rely on one another, hence helping the community aspect. But as someone else mentioned that is more a development decision than it is a community thing as I think the loss of group play has certainly hurt. 

 

Gallus85

Originally posted by kellian1

I find some truth in this. There is always the option of just not dealing with people who don't fit your style of play or personality. I think the harder the game is, as others have mentioned, it helps weed out some and makes players rely on one another, hence helping the community aspect. But as someone else mentioned that is more a development decision than it is a community thing as I think the loss of group play has certainly hurt. 

 

Ya one of the most recent worst culprits of the Solo Online RPG that I can recall was Tera.  The game had group content (BAMS and dungeons), but they were split up so drastically that once a dungeon or BAM hunting area became green/gray, you had to level another 5-8 levels through solo content to get to the next group content part.  It was mind boggling.

Almost half the game is forced solo content.  What was even worst was that the group content dungeons would have lock out timers, and no alternative dungeons to run in the mean time.  

I couldn't believe how catered to solo game play it was.  It didn't just promote solo game play, it forced it.

It was out of control.

I'm all for some solo content in an MMORPG. Really I am.  But it shouldn't be the best/fastest way to level and there should always be group content to do at any time, any level and the group content should always be more rewarding exp/loot wise.

Broomy

I agree with those that say, "The community is what you make of it".  If your too lazy to weed through the muck to find solid, good people and players, then today's MMOs are not for  you.  The game should not have to implement restrictions (camping, long down times, etc) in order for a game to have a great community.   Forced grouping is NEVER coming back, so get that out of your heads.  Making people have to interact and kiss butt to "get along" isn't what people want to do anymore.  I saw this in EQ2 a lot.  And contrary to what has been said here, EQ2 had the most TOXIC community of sexists, racists and every other "ist" known to the MMO world.  Need proof? Go to EQ2 Flames and read the RAR section, that's just a small taste of the venom that community spewed.   If you left a guild they wasted no time trying to badmouth and blacklist you even if you did nothing wrong.  And due to the fact that the entire game was group dependent you had no choice but to leave the game.  And many people did, then the same guilds that bad mouthed players  cried about having a hard time finding players and certain classes...please.

 

MMOs must adapt to what people want, and people want a more independent playstyle.  The person that has a 8am meeting in the morning doesn't have 6 hours to camp Vox at Vox Castle the night before.  MMOs cost MILLIONS of dollars to develop, they need to make that money back and catering to the gainfully employed is essential.  Games that require camping, groups etc are for stay-at-home losers with nothing better to do. 

 

So tell you what, you guys can make your own MMO and play that.  Long camps, long downtime, forced grouping can all be yours.  I'm sure you will have no problem raising the 30 Million needed to develop it with the expectation of a very limited audience.  Afterall,  that "hardcore" community is what lasts, right? /sarcasm

 

 

 

strangiato2112

The biggest factor in community decline is the combination of overly busy clickfests (GCD based systems where you have to spam skills every 1-1.5 seconds, plus off gcd abilities inbetween) combined with the rise of voice chat.

 

If there was a game where the use of voice chat was a lifetime bannable offense it would have an incredible in game community.  But now people prefer to talk to their small circle as opposed to type to the large circle.

arieste

complexity and lack of popularity.  if the game is complex and not very popular, all the morons quit and the people who truly enjoy and understand the game remain, making for a better community.

 

Gallus85

Originally posted by Broomy

I agree with those that say, "The community is what you make of it".  If your too lazy to weed through the muck to find solid, good people and players, then today's MMOs are not for  you.  The game should not have to implement restrictions (camping, long down times, etc) in order for a game to have a great community.   Forced grouping is NEVER coming back, so get that out of your heads.  Making people have to interact and kiss butt to "get along" isn't what people want to do anymore.  I saw this in EQ2 a lot.  And contrary to what has been said here, EQ2 had the most TOXIC community of sexists, racists and every other "ist" known to the MMO world.  Need proof? Go to EQ2 Flames and read the RAR section, that's just a small taste of the venom that community spewed.   If you left a guild they wasted no time trying to badmouth and blacklist you even if you did nothing wrong.  And due to the fact that the entire game was group dependent you had no choice but to leave the game.  And many people did, then the same guilds that bad mouthed players  cried about having a hard time finding players and certain classes...please.

 

MMOs must adapt to what people want, and people want a more independent playstyle.  The person that has a 8am meeting in the morning doesn't have 6 hours to camp Vox at Vox Castle the night before.  MMOs cost MILLIONS of dollars to develop, they need to make that money back and catering to the gainfully employed is essential.  Games that require camping, groups etc are for stay-at-home losers with nothing better to do. 

 

So tell you what, you guys can make your own MMO and play that.  Long camps, long downtime, forced grouping can all be yours.  I'm sure you will have no problem raising the 30 Million needed to develop it with the expectation of a very limited audience.  Afterall,  that "hardcore" community is what lasts, right? /sarcasm

 

 

 

I agree, except that EQ2 had a bad community.  I thought it was pretty solid.

I don't think I would ever suggest "Forced grouping".  You got a lot more fun out of people who want* to be there, not ones that are forced* to be there.  However, the problem is that so many games don't just have solo content, but they promote it as the most efficient and desirable way to level up.  Hell in some games, like Tera in my previous post expample, forces it on you as your only option.

That's just absurd!  

I don't think anyone in their right mind would advocate for a completely forced group-play experience in this day and age, but an MMORPG should have both ways of play available at all times, and grouping needs to not simply be on-par (or inferior) with soloing when it comes to rewards and exp rates.

Gallus85

Originally posted by strangiato2112

The biggest factor in community decline is the combination of overly busy clickfests (GCD based systems where you have to spam skills every 1-1.5 seconds, plus off gcd abilities inbetween) combined with the rise of voice chat.

 

If there was a game where the use of voice chat was a lifetime bannable offense it would have an incredible in game community.  But now people prefer to talk to their small circle as opposed to type to the large circle.

Or instead of living in the past you could embrace the future by incorporating an in game VOIP.  That way you can instantly voice chat with your group, or people you meet in town, or a passing adventurer when you're out exploring.

I have no problem typing.  I type for my work, I type in games, I type of forums.  I like the type.  But many people don't.  Embracing VOIP and making it work for a game is a far better solution than simply banning the technology lol.

Boneserino

Originally posted by joeri123

Originally posted by Boneserino

I dunno I find communities are what you make of them.   I think if you look hard enough there are good people to play with in any game, you just have to find them.  Takes some work, thats for sure,  but any game I have played, I have never had trouble finding good people.

As for the rest, the ignore button is every games best feature!

It's not about finding good people. It's about the trend of communities that are going to shit. 

I really don't have the time nor do I want to put in the effort to weed through thousands of stupid people just to find a few good people to play with.

I think that's why I remember the early days of WoW so well and look back to it fondly. Not that the game was super great, but the fact that the community was much more awesome than it is today. My friendlist was packed with awesome people to play with.

LOL maybe your attitude has something to do with that.

kellian1

Originally posted by Broomy

I agree with those that say, "The community is what you make of it".  If your too lazy to weed through the muck to find solid, good people and players, then today's MMOs are not for  you.  The game should not have to implement restrictions (camping, long down times, etc) in order for a game to have a great community.   Forced grouping is NEVER coming back, so get that out of your heads.  Making people have to interact and kiss butt to "get along" isn't what people want to do anymore.  I saw this in EQ2 a lot.  And contrary to what has been said here, EQ2 had the most TOXIC community of sexists, racists and every other "ist" known to the MMO world.  Need proof? Go to EQ2 Flames and read the RAR section, that's just a small taste of the venom that community spewed.   If you left a guild they wasted no time trying to badmouth and blacklist you even if you did nothing wrong.  And due to the fact that the entire game was group dependent you had no choice but to leave the game.  And many people did, then the same guilds that bad mouthed players  cried about having a hard time finding players and certain classes...please.

 

MMOs must adapt to what people want, and people want a more independent playstyle.  The person that has a 8am meeting in the morning doesn't have 6 hours to camp Vox at Vox Castle the night before.  MMOs cost MILLIONS of dollars to develop, they need to make that money back and catering to the gainfully employed is essential.  Games that require camping, groups etc are for stay-at-home losers with nothing better to do. 

 

So tell you what, you guys can make your own MMO and play that.  Long camps, long downtime, forced grouping can all be yours.  I'm sure you will have no problem raising the 30 Million needed to develop it with the expectation of a very limited audience.  Afterall,  that "hardcore" community is what lasts, right? /sarcasm

 

 

 

Pretty sure nobody is advocating forced grouping, long camp times or anything like that (matter of fact I've said in the past I hope camping is something EQnext won't have). I have no issue with soloing at all, every game needs it and should have it. I will say the balance between solo and group content seems skewed recently though.

 

I'm no fan of 3 hour dungeon runs, camping or even raids for that matter, but I also don't like speed runs. The idea that everyone who is interested in having some semblance of group play is as you described, is frankly absurd. I don't feel the need or have the time anymore (being a teacher and having a wife and kid) to log in every day of the week, but when I do have time...I certainly want to have fun and be challenged, instead of running around hack and slashing everything to death solo. I can just boot up any number of games like Torchlight and Diablo if I wanted to do that. I also don't feel asking for a little more grouping is in anyway "hardcore" (whatever that means nowadays).

 

I played EQ2 when it was first released for a few years and back then the community was actually pretty good (at least on my server and again it was a role play server so maybe that was why). What became of it since I have no idea.

Dejoblue

Another team to fight against. Resources to fight over. Consequences for your behavior.

A lot of people have never been in a real community where there are consequences for being a jerk. In EQ if you were tha jerk in chat always starting drama good luck getting a group. In EVE you can be that pirate and guess what if you become famous that means you are probably KOS for everyone.

There is also us versus them. In EQ it was players versus mobs. In EVE it is corp versus corp. The driving force was scarcity of resources. In EQ it was mob spawns. You fought over who got to tag the raid boss. In EVE battles are fought over moons because they have resources to extract. Territory is another driving force. EQ had whole zones claimed by an incoming guild telling everyone to leave because they were taking over. EVE has space that is owned by corps.

Another team to fight against. Resources to fight over. Consequences for your behavior.