Someone already said it, but if you act like your character would then you're role playing. I like RP and have even been in RP guilds. What I don't like about role playing is that it seems like RP guild means a guild that doesn't play the game.
Maybe there's some out there that both role play and take the game seriously enough to plan attacks and raids and pull them off, but I haven't been lucky enough to find one.
Then my other role playing gripe is that it seems like there's so many RP police out there. They worry about names and talk and immersion too much for me. I don't break character or cause grief, but it doesn't ruin my RP to have someone talk about RL for a bit. I'd like to leave any policing to officers in /tell to the offender and not have people embarrass the poor guy. I'm pretty easy going on most things though, so I'm not saying I'm right, just that it's a downside for me.
Do many people make that mistake? It seems the division is between whether it means roleplaying a character in the game world or the associated progression system.
Many make that mistake. Just about every day we have someone in here who doesn't understand that MMORPGs are RPGs in the sense of every videogame RPG ever, not in the sense of tabletop role-playing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It is depressing how commonly roleplaying is discouraged in RPGs.
In what way is roleplaying discouraged?
Wireframe models and a bare handful of emotes, lack of character customization, lack of props, support, lack of events, lack of enforcement of written policies, lack of staff dedicated to promoting RP...
Discouraged is not the proper word. Neglected is more accurate. Mmos are actually devolving with respect to roleplay, because it's expensive to support properly.
The PVP audience is much bigger, and relatively cheaper.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Do many people make that mistake? It seems the division is between whether it means roleplaying a character in the game world or the associated progression system.
Many make that mistake. Just about every day we have someone in here who doesn't understand that MMORPGs are RPGs in the sense of every videogame RPG ever, not in the sense of tabletop role-playing.
I don't doubt that, and you've pretty much repeated what I wrote. The OP, however, stated it is "Role" (Tank, Healer, DPS, Utility, Crowd Control) and "Role Play" that people seem to confuse. I haven't seen that in any thread or blog; have you?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Do many people make that mistake? It seems the division is between whether it means roleplaying a character in the game world or the associated progression system.
Many make that mistake. Just about every day we have someone in here who doesn't understand that MMORPGs are RPGs in the sense of every videogame RPG ever, not in the sense of tabletop role-playing.
I don't doubt that, and you've pretty much repeated what I wrote. The OP, however, stated it is "Role" (Tank, Healer, DPS, Utility, Crowd Control) and "Role Play" that people seem to confuse. I haven't seen that in any thread or blog; have you?
well OP is partially correct at least in that the RPG part of MMORPG comes from CRPG conventions and all those "roles" are part of that legacy but not the whole,they all existed in one form or another before MMORPGs were invented just didn't have specific names and was more how the player used his characters.
Originally posted by Senadina Single-player RPGs existed before MMORPGs. There was no one else to "roleplay" with. In the world of video games, RPG refers to the type of gaming mechanics one can expect in the game...i.e : levels, loot, inventory management. It is solely a term to distinguish it from FPS, RTS, platformers etc....when referring to video games at least.
This. It's just a term. It means different regarding video games than other things. That's why the RPG genre was created. It's just a name, not a literal meaning. Just like THEMEPARK and SANDBOX. Nether are literal terms but ways to name a subgenre.
Do many people make that mistake? It seems the division is between whether it means roleplaying a character in the game world or the associated progression system.
Many make that mistake. Just about every day we have someone in here who doesn't understand that MMORPGs are RPGs in the sense of every videogame RPG ever, not in the sense of tabletop role-playing.
The RP in MMORPG is "Role Play" it has nothing to do with TANKS, HEALERS and DPS. It is a term about social activity not combat.
The RP in MMORPG most certainly does deal with tanks, healers, dps, etc.
MMORPG's are simply large scale extensions of single player RPG's with multiple people to play with. Every RPG game consisted of two different ways that you RP'd
1) you followed a predetermined storyline of which you played a significant player in the outcome
2) you had different characters who each functioned fundamentally different from the other to the point that each character played a specific role
In MMORPG, you follow a predetermined storyline of which you play some role to the story, but more importantly you play a character who fundamentally behaves radically different from another type of character.
"You see a dwarf and you think to yourself..." has very little to do with it.
It is depressing how commonly roleplaying is discouraged in RPGs.
In what way is roleplaying discouraged?
I've had a few bad experiences. Two basic categories: people who freak out at the idea of someone doing anything with their character development that doesn't min/max dps and people who freak out at the idea of someone writing up a conversation between alts.
I don't doubt that, and you've pretty much repeated what I wrote. The OP, however, stated it is "Role" (Tank, Healer, DPS, Utility, Crowd Control) and "Role Play" that people seem to confuse. I haven't seen that in any thread or blog; have you?
Right.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't know dude, it seems like there are some pretty standard personalities that grow out of playing a particular class. In this way then, whether we like it or not, we are still roleplaying.
I mean who hasn't met the tank with the bad attitude because the only time people talk to him/her is when they need something?
Or the prima donna healer who thinks that they can treat you however they want because you NEED them.
Or the kid on vicodin and rum who can't stop pulling aggro with his thief.
Of the tank wizard with the Gandalf complex who thinks that because he can kill most things before they ever get to him, he should be the first one through every door?
These are not just stereotypes (although they certainly are) they are also roles that enhance our gameplay stories in almost every game we play. Sure, they don't really fall in line with the jargon being written for the game, but who's fault is that? Ours or the guys who wrote the games?
Maybe if a quest was worded like this......
"Gilgamesh has refused to tank for his group anymore because Alaran keeps giving the good drops to his boy. Help Gilgamesh kill Alaran so that he can regroup with the rest of the team and continue raiding."
We might read the stuff hehe.
Of course this entire post is in jest. But only kinda.
I don't know dude, it seems like there are some pretty standard personalities that grow out of playing a particular class. In this way then, whether we like it or not, we are still roleplaying.
I mean who hasn't met the tank with the bad attitude because the only time people talk to him/her is when they need something?
Or the prima donna healer who thinks that they can treat you however they want because you NEED them.
Or the kid on vicodin and rum who can't stop pulling aggro with his thief.
Of the tank wizard with the Gandalf complex who thinks that because he can kill most things before they ever get to him, he should be the first one through every door?
These are not just stereotypes (although they certainly are) they are also roles that enhance our gameplay stories in almost every game we play. Sure, they don't really fall in line with the jargon being written for the game, but who's fault is that? Ours or the guys who wrote the games?
Maybe if a quest was worded like this......
"Gilgamesh has refused to tank for his group anymore because Alaran keeps giving the good drops to his boy. Help Gilgamesh kill Alaran so that he can regroup with the rest of the team and continue raiding."
We might read the stuff hehe.
Of course this entire post is in jest. But only kinda.
.... or the emo dirge who keeps on and on about how sad things are.
It is depressing how commonly roleplaying is discouraged in RPGs.
In what way is roleplaying discouraged?
Wireframe models and a bare handful of emotes, lack of character customization, lack of props, support, lack of events, lack of enforcement of written policies, lack of staff dedicated to promoting RP...
Discouraged is not the proper word. Neglected is more accurate. Mmos are actually devolving with respect to roleplay, because it's expensive to support properly.
The PVP audience is much bigger, and relatively cheaper.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Better odds of finding Hoffa then decent RP in any MMO's these days.
mmoRPg used to mean "Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game"...
In most games nowadays, RPG means "Raid to Pharm Gear", and the massively is mostly gone too since people spend most of their time in instanced dungeons or queuing for them in a city hub.
I don't know when RPG for video games meant really anything but that. Whether you want to admit it or not, MMORPG's still have characters following a specific story, and the raids typically follow a story (not always).
The most important thing is that, like every single player RPG, every MMORPG has you playing a class that plays a specific role in a group dynamic. This is one of the most fundamental cores of RPG's and MMORPG's. Very few RPG's and MMORPG's deviate from this formula, and if they do, its not by far.
I don't know dude, it seems like there are some pretty standard personalities that grow out of playing a particular class. In this way then, whether we like it or not, we are still roleplaying.
A lot of gamers who encountered RP first/only on computers saw roleplay as 'too nerdy', and spent a great deal of time denying that.
...while standing there with their Orcfaces on...
The only question remaining for game producers is why even bother keeping the tolkein-esque high fantasy wrapping paper, when a Minecraft avatar would work just as well for gear collection games. Or a tiny spaceship floating in space. :shrug:
Simpler avatars would--without doubt--be easier on your animation crew. And we're all about making the games cheaper to produce these days, right?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Do many people make that mistake? It seems the division is between whether it means roleplaying a character in the game world or the associated progression system.
Well I do not see how it has anything to do with progression.
YES people make that mistake, I see it at least twice a day on these forums.
No there is no question, MMORPG and "Role Play" emerged as terms before the "Holy Trinity" and roles like TANK and HEALER came into existence in the way they are used today.
Well, a character that grows as you play is actually one of the classic ingredients in a oldschool roleplaying game. And that growth is both stat wise and emotionally. Not gear wise though, any type of game including RTS games can give you gear (Spellforce 2 comes to thought).
You are right about roleplay though, but there are more parts to a classic roleplaying game.
However the holy trinity did show up with the first MMORPG, Meridian 59 had it and it was the first modern MMO long before UO. But pen and paper roleplaying games have been around since the early 70s and computer RPGs since the early 80s and they did not have trinity combat back then.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard What I was meaning is that for the whole WoW generation, gear has become the focus, and not the adventure itself.
While I don't disagree, I think oldschool gamers tend to overestimate the adventure aspect by quite a bit.
As a pen and paper player since mid 80s I don't agree. Heck, in one of the best campaign I ever played (werewolf) did my character gain exactly zero gear during years of playing. I did gain stats though but it was the adventure in itself that was the cool part.
Problem in MMORPGs is that they don't do the adventure part right. You rarely have to think or make any decisions, your impact on the gameworld is very limited or none existing and "quests" are usually just menial tasks.
It is my belief that MMOs should become closer to pen and paper RPGs to become more fun.
Well, if we really want to start getting into catagorizing things, it'd be more of an OLGRPG than anything. You are still an RPG in the strictest sense, you're just straying further away from MMO as you really never have much massive multiplayer interaction. But that's beside the point.
I more or less agree with your assessment of there really only being 2 types of roleplay,
the thing of it though is that the type of RP that exists in table top games such as DnD does not even come close to existing in any video game yet. Yes there are SOME games that allow you to make choices on how you react, but you're really only making a choice out of a selection given too you. All posibilities are entirely accounted for by the game devs. That is not how DnD opperates, and as such no video game to date can really claim to be on the same level of immersion that DnD gives.
Current RPG games (by that I mean every video game that has been created from 1980's on) dont require any level of immersion to be successful, much less even play. Whether you actually do gain some sort of emotional investment in characters, develop your own spin offs with those characters etc, is not mutually exclusive to the RPG (a friend and I actually RP'd playing Starcraft) and is not inherently necessary in any video game RPG. The biggest dilemma facing people who are expecting for there to be RP on the level of the table top universe is this very issue
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard What I was meaning is that for the whole WoW generation, gear has become the focus, and not the adventure itself.
While I don't disagree, I think oldschool gamers tend to overestimate the adventure aspect by quite a bit.
As a pen and paper player since mid 80s I don't agree. Heck, in one of the best campaign I ever played (werewolf) did my character gain exactly zero gear during years of playing. I did gain stats though but it was the adventure in itself that was the cool part.
Problem in MMORPGs is that they don't do the adventure part right. You rarely have to think or make any decisions, your impact on the gameworld is very limited or none existing and "quests" are usually just menial tasks.
It is my belief that MMOs should become closer to pen and paper RPGs to become more fun.
Table top RPG is a whole different league. My comment pertained to video game RPG's which are only similar by name.
Table top RPG's are 100% about the adventure, I agree. Video game RPG's are about the adventure, to an extent. The key difference is that in table top RPG's, you literally cannot even play the game if you don't invest some level of immersion. In Video game RPG's, you can play the game on rails. Yes, Video game RPG's are MORE FOCUSED to story and adventure than nearly every other genre, but that doesn't at all dictate that people have to and/or will get full on into that adventure
Do many people make that mistake? It seems the division is between whether it means roleplaying a character in the game world or the associated progression system.
Well I do not see how it has anything to do with progression.
YES people make that mistake, I see it at least twice a day on these forums.
No there is no question, MMORPG and "Role Play" emerged as terms before the "Holy Trinity" and roles like TANK and HEALER came into existence in the way they are used today.
We have this difference in perception since early PnP roleplaying game. Some play for progression and stat/skill min/maxing other for playing a role in a fantasy world. And the introduction of CRPGs swifted that perception a lot more into the min/maxing category.. because there is not a lot of meaning to play a role in a single player game.
Another problem in computer games (MMORPGs included) is, that most of the time you can't really roleplaying in an environment.. everyone does the same (combat) and it is further reduced to min/maxing. Although in some sandbox games you play unintentionally a role, like in EvE. You are the trader, miner, pirate, or whatever. But a game have to support it, it will always fail as long as it requires the intention of players, to literally roleplay.
In MMORPG we have two terms "Role" and "Role Play" that people seem to confuse.
"Role" refers to a task performed in a group: Tank, Healer, DPS, Utility, Crowd Control etc.
Please do not confuse this with "Role Play" which is about acting out a personal story in conjunction with others: as in my Female Ranger flirts with your Male Troubador, we both go and have a few drinks together in a bar. We meet a dwarf and get involved in a discussion about the evil orcs etc.
The RP in MMORPG is "Role Play" it has nothing to do with TANKS, HEALERS and DPS. It is a term about social activity not combat.
When your in bar with this hansom troubador he can maybe mention in this lovely conversation he hurts his knee(he took a.....:P). Then you luckly are healer and say im a healer maybe i can help you heal your wounds becouse that my role:D
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard What I was meaning is that for the whole WoW generation, gear has become the focus, and not the adventure itself.
While I don't disagree, I think oldschool gamers tend to overestimate the adventure aspect by quite a bit.
As a pen and paper player since mid 80s I don't agree. Heck, in one of the best campaign I ever played (werewolf) did my character gain exactly zero gear during years of playing. I did gain stats though but it was the adventure in itself that was the cool part.
Problem in MMORPGs is that they don't do the adventure part right. You rarely have to think or make any decisions, your impact on the gameworld is very limited or none existing and "quests" are usually just menial tasks.
It is my belief that MMOs should become closer to pen and paper RPGs to become more fun.
I would have to say that I agree with both of you to an extent. While D&D is great, it is at heart a derivative of a miniatures war game. It is both about the adventure and also character development through stats, powers, and improved gear. I do agree that most MMO's are way to limiting and that most often no real decisions are made by the PC. I did like SWG for that reason. As buggy as it was, I felt that I lived in a world, and you could roleplayed without even trying. On a side note, I am introducing my son to PnP roleplaying. We are running a Barebones Fantasy game. If you haven't tried that system out you should if you like rules light systems.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Comments
In what way is roleplaying discouraged?
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Someone already said it, but if you act like your character would then you're role playing. I like RP and have even been in RP guilds. What I don't like about role playing is that it seems like RP guild means a guild that doesn't play the game.
Maybe there's some out there that both role play and take the game seriously enough to plan attacks and raids and pull them off, but I haven't been lucky enough to find one.
Then my other role playing gripe is that it seems like there's so many RP police out there. They worry about names and talk and immersion too much for me. I don't break character or cause grief, but it doesn't ruin my RP to have someone talk about RL for a bit. I'd like to leave any policing to officers in /tell to the offender and not have people embarrass the poor guy. I'm pretty easy going on most things though, so I'm not saying I'm right, just that it's a downside for me.
Asdar
Many make that mistake. Just about every day we have someone in here who doesn't understand that MMORPGs are RPGs in the sense of every videogame RPG ever, not in the sense of tabletop role-playing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Wireframe models and a bare handful of emotes, lack of character customization, lack of props, support, lack of events, lack of enforcement of written policies, lack of staff dedicated to promoting RP...
Discouraged is not the proper word. Neglected is more accurate. Mmos are actually devolving with respect to roleplay, because it's expensive to support properly.
The PVP audience is much bigger, and relatively cheaper.Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't doubt that, and you've pretty much repeated what I wrote. The OP, however, stated it is "Role" (Tank, Healer, DPS, Utility, Crowd Control) and "Role Play" that people seem to confuse. I haven't seen that in any thread or blog; have you?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
well OP is partially correct at least in that the RPG part of MMORPG comes from CRPG conventions and all those "roles" are part of that legacy but not the whole,they all existed in one form or another before MMORPGs were invented just didn't have specific names and was more how the player used his characters.
This. It's just a term. It means different regarding video games than other things. That's why the RPG genre was created. It's just a name, not a literal meaning. Just like THEMEPARK and SANDBOX. Nether are literal terms but ways to name a subgenre.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Pretty much this
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
The RP in MMORPG most certainly does deal with tanks, healers, dps, etc.
MMORPG's are simply large scale extensions of single player RPG's with multiple people to play with. Every RPG game consisted of two different ways that you RP'd
1) you followed a predetermined storyline of which you played a significant player in the outcome
2) you had different characters who each functioned fundamentally different from the other to the point that each character played a specific role
In MMORPG, you follow a predetermined storyline of which you play some role to the story, but more importantly you play a character who fundamentally behaves radically different from another type of character.
"You see a dwarf and you think to yourself..." has very little to do with it.
I've had a few bad experiences. Two basic categories: people who freak out at the idea of someone doing anything with their character development that doesn't min/max dps and people who freak out at the idea of someone writing up a conversation between alts.
Right.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't know dude, it seems like there are some pretty standard personalities that grow out of playing a particular class. In this way then, whether we like it or not, we are still roleplaying.
I mean who hasn't met the tank with the bad attitude because the only time people talk to him/her is when they need something?
Or the prima donna healer who thinks that they can treat you however they want because you NEED them.
Or the kid on vicodin and rum who can't stop pulling aggro with his thief.
Of the tank wizard with the Gandalf complex who thinks that because he can kill most things before they ever get to him, he should be the first one through every door?
These are not just stereotypes (although they certainly are) they are also roles that enhance our gameplay stories in almost every game we play. Sure, they don't really fall in line with the jargon being written for the game, but who's fault is that? Ours or the guys who wrote the games?
Maybe if a quest was worded like this......
"Gilgamesh has refused to tank for his group anymore because Alaran keeps giving the good drops to his boy. Help Gilgamesh kill Alaran so that he can regroup with the rest of the team and continue raiding."
We might read the stuff hehe.
Of course this entire post is in jest. But only kinda.
.... or the emo dirge who keeps on and on about how sad things are.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Better odds of finding Hoffa then decent RP in any MMO's these days.
Roleplaying died with MUDs.
MMORPG Gamers/Developers need a reality check!
I don't know when RPG for video games meant really anything but that. Whether you want to admit it or not, MMORPG's still have characters following a specific story, and the raids typically follow a story (not always).
The most important thing is that, like every single player RPG, every MMORPG has you playing a class that plays a specific role in a group dynamic. This is one of the most fundamental cores of RPG's and MMORPG's. Very few RPG's and MMORPG's deviate from this formula, and if they do, its not by far.
While I don't disagree, I think oldschool gamers tend to overestimate the adventure aspect by quite a bit.
A lot of gamers who encountered RP first/only on computers saw roleplay as 'too nerdy', and spent a great deal of time denying that.
...while standing there with their Orcfaces on...
The only question remaining for game producers is why even bother keeping the tolkein-esque high fantasy wrapping paper, when a Minecraft avatar would work just as well for gear collection games. Or a tiny spaceship floating in space. :shrug:
Simpler avatars would--without doubt--be easier on your animation crew. And we're all about making the games cheaper to produce these days, right?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well, a character that grows as you play is actually one of the classic ingredients in a oldschool roleplaying game. And that growth is both stat wise and emotionally. Not gear wise though, any type of game including RTS games can give you gear (Spellforce 2 comes to thought).
You are right about roleplay though, but there are more parts to a classic roleplaying game.
However the holy trinity did show up with the first MMORPG, Meridian 59 had it and it was the first modern MMO long before UO. But pen and paper roleplaying games have been around since the early 70s and computer RPGs since the early 80s and they did not have trinity combat back then.
No they don't.
As a pen and paper player since mid 80s I don't agree. Heck, in one of the best campaign I ever played (werewolf) did my character gain exactly zero gear during years of playing. I did gain stats though but it was the adventure in itself that was the cool part.
Problem in MMORPGs is that they don't do the adventure part right. You rarely have to think or make any decisions, your impact on the gameworld is very limited or none existing and "quests" are usually just menial tasks.
It is my belief that MMOs should become closer to pen and paper RPGs to become more fun.
Well, if we really want to start getting into catagorizing things, it'd be more of an OLGRPG than anything. You are still an RPG in the strictest sense, you're just straying further away from MMO as you really never have much massive multiplayer interaction. But that's beside the point.
I more or less agree with your assessment of there really only being 2 types of roleplay,
the thing of it though is that the type of RP that exists in table top games such as DnD does not even come close to existing in any video game yet. Yes there are SOME games that allow you to make choices on how you react, but you're really only making a choice out of a selection given too you. All posibilities are entirely accounted for by the game devs. That is not how DnD opperates, and as such no video game to date can really claim to be on the same level of immersion that DnD gives.
Current RPG games (by that I mean every video game that has been created from 1980's on) dont require any level of immersion to be successful, much less even play. Whether you actually do gain some sort of emotional investment in characters, develop your own spin offs with those characters etc, is not mutually exclusive to the RPG (a friend and I actually RP'd playing Starcraft) and is not inherently necessary in any video game RPG. The biggest dilemma facing people who are expecting for there to be RP on the level of the table top universe is this very issue
Table top RPG is a whole different league. My comment pertained to video game RPG's which are only similar by name.
Table top RPG's are 100% about the adventure, I agree. Video game RPG's are about the adventure, to an extent. The key difference is that in table top RPG's, you literally cannot even play the game if you don't invest some level of immersion. In Video game RPG's, you can play the game on rails. Yes, Video game RPG's are MORE FOCUSED to story and adventure than nearly every other genre, but that doesn't at all dictate that people have to and/or will get full on into that adventure
We have this difference in perception since early PnP roleplaying game. Some play for progression and stat/skill min/maxing other for playing a role in a fantasy world. And the introduction of CRPGs swifted that perception a lot more into the min/maxing category.. because there is not a lot of meaning to play a role in a single player game.
Another problem in computer games (MMORPGs included) is, that most of the time you can't really roleplaying in an environment.. everyone does the same (combat) and it is further reduced to min/maxing. Although in some sandbox games you play unintentionally a role, like in EvE. You are the trader, miner, pirate, or whatever. But a game have to support it, it will always fail as long as it requires the intention of players, to literally roleplay.
When your in bar with this hansom troubador he can maybe mention in this lovely conversation he hurts his knee(he took a.....:P). Then you luckly are healer and say im a healer maybe i can help you heal your wounds becouse that my role:D
I would have to say that I agree with both of you to an extent. While D&D is great, it is at heart a derivative of a miniatures war game. It is both about the adventure and also character development through stats, powers, and improved gear. I do agree that most MMO's are way to limiting and that most often no real decisions are made by the PC. I did like SWG for that reason. As buggy as it was, I felt that I lived in a world, and you could roleplayed without even trying. On a side note, I am introducing my son to PnP roleplaying. We are running a Barebones Fantasy game. If you haven't tried that system out you should if you like rules light systems.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?