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Class system
freakishbean
Member UncommonPosts: 176
The concept art (official too!) That was shown for the Space Marines showed a Space Wolf assault (or, Blood Claw), Blood Angel Terminator, Ultramarine Apothecary and Dark Angel Devestator. With this in mind, while it is nice to know that what we saw will be in game, I certainly hope that this is not the way the devs implement the classes. One thing that can be drawn from this is that each chapter will have its own class, but in my minds eye this would limit the games playability. Namely. each chapter has its own specialized units. I'd enjoy playing a Space Wolf Long Fang (devestator) or Wolf Guard, or Ultramarine Assault specialist (or Vanguard or Sternguard or Tacticle). Also, Dark Angles have their Ravenwing counterparts, Blood Angels their death company and other assorted goodness.
So, a request to the devs: Don't limit the Chapters to their classes. Rather, all classes should be made available to each chapter, but with their host of special abilities. In the end, it is my goal to be able to play a Wolf Guard with Power Claws, eating enemy infantry on the field or an Ultramarine Tactical Sergeant laying down suppressive fire.
On another note - how do y'all think the classes should be implemented?
Needing is Wanting...
Wanting is Coveting...
Coveting is Sinning...
I am SO going to Hell.
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
i agree with you about the "open" class system. a player should pick a chapter and then a starting specialization tree and then be free to unlock other specializations. specializations like terminator should have some requierments placed on them, would be a little odd to start out as a terminator.
each chapter will need ether a specialization added (death company) or a number of specializations tweeked (ravenwing, deathwing) other chapters will need changes across the board to reflect how much the differ from the codex chapters (space wolves). the ultramarines should serve as the archetypal codex chapter.
this sort of systemcould be extended to the other races via clans, trator leagons/warbands and craftworlds.
I hope its progression like the codex and each tier allows you access to different loadouts and gear from the armory that is allowed to that tier or if you really like a certain playstyle it be nice to get veteran status in that tier as your "Class" of course not just for Space Marines but I like the idea of limited vertical progression with lots of horizontal progression through specialization.
Example: Scount > Devestator > Assault > Tactical
Basic Scout gets access to Bolt pistol, combat knife, Frag/Krak Grenades+ Shotgun or Sniper rifle or Bolter
Veteran Scout gets access to all the above plus Plasma weapons, combi weapons, Power weapons, Melta bombs
Abilities: Map spotting, Infiltration into "restricted" enemy zones, limited stealth/camo
Basic Devastators get access to bolt pistols, boltguns, frag and krak grenades or choice of Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, LasCannon
Veteran Devastators get access to all the above plus Signum, melta bombs, Multi-Melta, Plasma Cannon
Abilities: Dig In (decreased damage taken, must remain still), Volley (increase rate of fire, must be standing still), Lock on (lock on or increase % chance hit/crit)
Basic Assault Marine gets access to bolt pistol, chainsword, flamer, plasma pistols, frag/krak grenades
Veteran Assault Marine can also carry melta bombs and a combat shield into battle. He can also replace his bolt pistol and/or chainsword with a storm shield, plasma pistol, power weapon, power fist, thunder hammer, and either one or a pair of Lightning Claws
Abilities: Jump jet ability, Combat landing (damage/stun on landing), Momentum (increased melee damage)
Basic Tactical Marine gets access to bolt pistol, chainsword, flamer, bolter, Meltaguns,Plasma Guns, Missile Launcher, Multi-meltas
Veteran Tacticalt Marine can also carry melta bombs and teleport homer, and can exchange his boltgun and/or bolt pistol for a Chainsword, Combi-melta, Combi-flamer, Combi-plasma, Storm Bolter, Plasma pistol, Power weapon, or Power fist
Abilities: "Ready for Anything" ability to switch up perks that boost firepower, close quarters, defense. Really to make this tier seem very flexible.
ELITE TIER: Can unlock after doing the basic tier and getting veteran status in the corresponding category. These loadouts also cost resources and/or have a cooldown on death to limit its abuse on the battlefield (Like PS2 max suits). This is more "Class" like in the sense each gives a very specific specialization/battlefield role instead of simply weaponry access.
Terminator (Assault or ranged loadouts): Similar perks as tactical marines with superior equipment and options from terminator armory, reduced mobility. When killed this loadout goes on cooldown
Techmarine: Similar perks as devastators but can repair vehicles and setup defenses, when killed this loadout goes on cooldown
Librarian: Similar perks to scouts with aoe firepower and crowdcontrol, maybe a stealth psychic ability? When killed this loadout goes on cooldown
Chaplain/Apothecary: Similar perks to assault marines with focus on "buffs" and close combat, may have assault pack as well? When killed this loadout goes on cooldown
Cooldown can be reduced with "speccing" into a specilization (only one of all elites as your preferred class) and/or through guild traits
Only problem is this progression/class system isnt universal to all chapters...like Space Wolves. Similar system can be used for progression from Troop/Fast choices up to elites in all 40k Armies.
While a good idea, I can't help but think of server population balance. Say out of the server there are like 20 Space Wolves, 60 Dark Angels, 0 Blood Angels and 70 Ultramarines, I can't help but think that the inner balance between the faction would be... weird. Especially when it comes to things like the 'Chapter Master' or Company Master directing objectives through their respective Chapter.
I think as time goes by, it might see the case of only one chapter being demonstrated just to make it easier to track etc.
On the other hand, I wholeheartedly agree that each chapter should have their own assault specialists, apothecaries etc.
WAR didn't stick to the classes from the original game. It was stupid of them to grossly change them and it pissed people off. I suspect 40k lovers would also be pissed off if they grossly strayed from the 40k game. Therefore, it would be stupid of them to not stick with the original material as closely as it reasonable.
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https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
MMOs are an entirely different type of game. It should be expected that classes won't function the same as they do on tabletop. As long as they capture the feel/look/style of the main ones it should be fine.
A few posts up had some good ideas (adopting the basics, and giving some of the advanced units cooldowns ala PS2).
I think once they said there wont be Space Marines sequel, but rather Space Marine was rather a testing ground for them to test new things.
Then came along Eternal Crusade, which said was to use Space Marine system as a model(or at least as an inspiration).
I think there might be a base classes (for example, SM might launch with Tacs, Assault,and Devs), with rather weapon selection as the `role` or rather tool to do the role.
For example, let`s say IF they use Space Marine as a base system.
Then, let`s take a vanilla Tac as the average squad
1) Player starts out with options between primary weapon Bolter(multi-purpose), Plasma gun(anti-personnel, anti light armor), melta gun(anti-armor).
2)More weapons unlocked through various system(achievements or whatnots, level?).
3)Perks to go along with 2 things: Weapons/loadout(similar to Space Marines system, improves primary weapons, combat capabilites, i.e more grenades, faster regen) or maybe a perk system similar to DoW2 perks (if they want to add progressions for the sake of progression). One interesting about DoW2 perk system is that it can make some classes more diverge.(akin to talent trees for standard mmos). I personally liked the system in DoW2 campaign, but it`s a rather normal mmo thing.
4)Advanced unit(terminator, for example) should be a limited unit rather than a class on its own. I dont play Planetside 2, but didnt they have vehicles, etc limited due to supply?Or as another example is siege golems from GW2, which costs tons of supply and takes time for both processing and deployment to the field. I believe this should apply to powerful units like terminator, nobs,wraithguards,obliterators etc). Special units(like Grey Knights) should be an elite thing(unlocked through multiple phases of war, with limited spots at one phase at a time). Think like Dreadnought mode in Space Marines.
5)Chapter(for SM),Craftworld(for Eldar) and Affliated god(for Chaos) -based class variants should stay as their own side exclusive.
6) Im not sure about some units that dont really comes in masses(Librarians, Chaos Sorceres, Weird Boyz,Warlock/Farseer for example). Perhaps makes them as 2nd tier/advancement classes?
Yes it is a different media than table top and miniatures. That doesn't mean you start mixing and matching like the OP suggested. Look at WAR. Learn the lesson of WAR. If not, YOU are suggesting it's ok to repeat the same STUPID mistakes. Do you want to repeat the same stupid mistakes?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I think that there has to be a happy medium. I'm split between the idea of trying to keep things to the lore (and say; whatever the Codex Astartes might supply) and enabling player agency.
Having said that, I think there must be some sort of line in the sand, I don't think I could handle it if I see something like a Tactical marine running around with a bolter in each hand.
Mix and match? How did you come to that conclusion? I meant that we should go by what the codecies for each chapter state - in terms of unit make up, they are similar. Grey Huners = Tactical squad, Long fangs = Devestators. My request was not to limit each chapter to 1 role.
Needing is Wanting...
Wanting is Coveting...
Coveting is Sinning...
I am SO going to Hell.
every chapter shall have all classes but with some changes to other chapters
(if a chapter have no warpuser cause of their fate then they shouldnt be able to pick that class)
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ah dont worry i think they will form squads with same chapters on they own cause many wh40k fans want to stay true to the lore
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oh im imagining a squad full of assault marines that would be so cool if they are well coordinated
all jumping the sametime on an enemysquad who fighting some1 else and slaugther them in brutal meleecombat that would be sooo hot *_*
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"Chaos forces sighted guarding objective, approx 7 hostiles armed with bolters and ccw's. They are in CC with a squad of approx 16 greenskins."
"Rgr. Combat ready?"
"Affirm. Assault Squad good to go, give the word."
"Confirm is a go. Weapons free."
"Engaging."
Then 10 or so Marines with jump packs splash down and begin hacking away. Love it.
Needing is Wanting...
Wanting is Coveting...
Coveting is Sinning...
I am SO going to Hell.
its a cool idea but the warhammer is usually not written this way, this is a story from the 3rd edition chaos codex
Brother Janus, champion of the Black Legion, Chosen of Chaos, fired his bolter as he sprinted forwards, bright explosions of blood flaring as his shots struck flesh. He and his black-armoured warriors darted through the twilit jungle, moving and firing with methodical precision. The Crimson Fists ahead occupied a slit trench dug at the edge of their camp, with two makeshift bunkers constructed from felled trunks on each flank. They were surrounded and outnumbered, yet still refused to accept the inevitability of their defeat and the utter impossibility of victory. For ten thousand years, Janus and his brethren had butchered the servants of the false Emperor, and these tawdry progeny of the Founding Legions though they could stand before the chosen of the gods?
Janus ducked into the cover of a thick tree trunk, enemy bolter rounds splintering its wood and showering his ornate power armor with thick, gummy sap as he slammed a fresh magazine into his weapon. He dimly remembered that the lackeys of the Emperor had once been worthy foes, but the long millennia had made them forget themselves. They were no longer the inheritors of the galaxy, merely faded echoes of their former glory. He spun low around the trunk, putting a round through the helmet of a Crimson Fist and sprinted forward. Dozens of Black Legion warriors followed him, but closer to the trenches and bunkers, the Crimson Fists' fire was more telling and more of his Black Legionnaires were falling.
Suddenly the jungle lit up, bright as day, as the bunker on the left flank exploded in a hail of white-hot plasma. An ululating howl echoed through the jungle as the mighty armoured behemoth of a blood-maddened dreadnought came into view, its plasma cannon hissing as it recharged. Its baroque sarcophagus contained the shattered remains of Amurael the Corrupted, the former leader of their band until a Khornate daemon had cleft him in two. Empires had once been claimed in his name and his shorn torso was now fused with the arcane technologies of the dreadnought's armoured shell. The dreadnought lumbered forwards, bolter impacts jangled around the mighty war machine's arms and legs, shackles that bound the bio-machine fast to its cage when not in battle.
Deafening gunfire roared from the massive weapon mounted on the dreadnought's other arm, spewing shots at a furious rate into the Crimson Fists' line. The barricades before the trench disintegrated, sending men and debris flying. The dreadnought howled with battle-lust, crashing into the enemy and hurling logs and Space Marines aside.
The Imperial flank was obliterated, the bunker burning with searing plasma fire. Janus leapt forward, the bolter kicking as he pumped shot after shot into the reeling Imperial defenders. Black Legion warriors charged the defences, leaping into the trench and hacking left and right with roaring chainswords. Janus dropped his bolter and drew his sword. He hammered his fist into the visor of a blazing Crimson Fist, whose left arm hung molten by his side. The Space Marine fell back and Janus rammed his chainsword two-handed through his breastplate.
He kicked the corpse off his blade in time to duck the lethal swing of a crackling power fist. A section of trench wall exploded under the impact. Janus rolled forwards, under the Crimson Fists Captain's reverse stroke and rose to his feet behind him, slashing his sword across his back. The Space Marine dropped to his knees and Janus spun on his heel, decapitating his foe with a single stroke. The dreadnought Amurael roared in triumph as it demolished the second bunker, the flames throwing lunatic shadows around the jungle. Janus added his howl to that of the dreadnought as the Black Legion completed the destruction of the Crimson Fists' position.
I personally imagine progression more like Battlefield. You have roles (Devastator, Assault, Tactic, Scout for example) with an xp bar for each. At first, you only have a "basic" weapon for your role (Heavy bolter for Devastator, Bolter for Tactic, Bolt pistol and chainsword for Assault, sniper for Scout). While playing with it and doing objectives/kills, you level up, gaining access to more choice, like unlocking Lascanon as Devastator or Power weapon for Assault.
Characters like Terminators, Dreadnought or Chaplains should cost resources and some kind of "energy" you gain while fighting, so that the more you fight (and the more you fight well), the more you can use those characters.
Sounds exactly like the progression system in THQ's Space Marine. In all honesty it was fun but it really lacked depth. Especially depth from what I've come to expect from something like an MMORPG.
I don't particularly want an incredibly laden talent tree or some sort, but I would like one. Xp could be gained for doing stuff which could be traded in for something like Certifications which could grant access to unique wargear. But the amount of Certifications you could actively use could be limited by rank. Then as you gain experience with that particular weapon it could open up a branching tree for special abilities, similiar in principle to Guild Wars 2, but actually have choice within the weapons.
I think roles such as Chaplains and Captains should be up to guild discretion. When promoted to such in a guild, it will reflect on your character and award different items and upgrades. Artificer armor, for one. Crozius Arcanum for Chaplains (and that smexy skull helm). Default bonuses should be higher health and damage.
Terminator honors should be awarded through XP, except limiting to what weapons you can use - storm bolter (for really rapid fire yet inaccurate at distance shooting), Assault Canon (stupidly accurate at long distance, if standing still, massive inaccuracy when on the move), and Heavy Flamers. as a default, they should come with Storm Bolters and Power Fists or Power Weapon. Special circumstances can award hurricane missile launchers.
Then, of course, we get into Assault Terminator territory with Storm Shields and Thunderhammers.
Needing is Wanting...
Wanting is Coveting...
Coveting is Sinning...
I am SO going to Hell.
I'm half with you there. I don't think Captains should be a reward in and of itself, as a captain is a pretty big deal really, being in command of a company for example. But it's frequently a company that gets deployed to a planet. Therefore, a Captain imo should be a guild leader voted for by other guild leaders, but that seems like a nightmare to try and organise some sort of semblence of cooperation and seems to be prone to corruption too.
I think Chaplains, Apothecaries etc should all be character classes, but I think there should be a difference.
Say you select for yourself a Space Marine.
You start off playing as a Scout. You gain experience, you like certain weapons all is awesome. You ding at some point, you become a Space Marine. Certain weapons you like you can spend xp on to gain Certifications (nice word). This way you can be a Tactical but you can buy (at a premium in certification points) a Plasma Gun. If you're in a Squad say of 5 people and you have a higher level of proficiency, you get the slot of a specialist weapon.
You play, you continue to have fun, you gain experience, and you ding. You've got a surplus of 'certification' so you decide to specialise and take the job of a Chaplain. Your job is now a Chaplain and while you are a Chaplain, you are locked in some way to Chaplain responsibilities/abilities and possibly in some way wargear as well. You become like a support class and you can continue to gain xp and abilities etc as a Chaplain. But maybe one day you get bored and want to be a Psyker, so you spend some certification and become a Psyker, or maybe when you specialise that's it, you can't respecialise at all.
i like this idea
i dont want to have to many chaplains and captains on the battlefield thats just unreal to the lore
everyone should be able to take a class they want but the "advanced classes" should be only for guildmembers and that guild need to reach requirements to get allowed to have a captain and other special classes for example guild level or an amount of member
for example:
the guild is level 9 and has put 4 skillpoints in brotherhood to extend the number of member the guild can have (max 100) then the special classes skill is unlocked and they put 3 points in it
cause they have reached the requirements of level 5 brotherhood and have 30 active member in the guild
now the guild can vote for 3 Terminators (or fight it out who will get one of this classes [perfect for orks and chaos])
the special classes get access to special equip for his class and abilities
if they invest more skillspoints in special classes like 10 the leader will become a captain with also special equip and some skills
if the special class carrier get inactive or lets say 1 week passes the guild can vote new members who get that class or keep the old one if he was that good
oh and all squadleaders shall be marked as that by carrying the banner of the chapter he fight for
a possible look of the specialclasses skill:
lvl 1 1 Terminator (need 10 members)
lvl 2 2 Terminators (need 20 members)
lvl 3 3 Terminators (need 30 members)
lvl 4 4 Terminators + 1 Chaplain (need 40 members)
lvl 5 5 erminators + 1 Chaplain + 1 Librarian (need 50 members)
lvl 6 6 Terminators + 2 Chaplains + 1 Librarian (need 60 members)
lvl 7 7 Terminators + 2 Chaplains + 2 Librarian (need 70 members)
lvl 8 8 Terminators + 3 Chaplains + 2 Librarians (need 80 members)
lvl 9 9 Terminators + 3 Chaplains + 3 Librarians (need 90 members)
lvl 10 10 Terminators + 4 Chaplains + 3 Librarians + 1 Captain (need 100 members)
would be 18 specials out of 100 that sounds good to me
that would take a realistic amount of special units to the battlefield i think (im not a tabletop player so i dont really know how it is there)
ah and ya the special units are abit stronger cause of their special skills and equip but all sides will have em if they are good organized by the councils
but maybe we need to balance that abit if one faction have much more palyers then others
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The problem with the vote system is that it removes player choice. Some people will want to be Chaplains, some wont, but some people will want to be a Chaplain but wont be able too if they have don't have the votes. By all means, make it so Chaplains are hard to access relatively speaking (a fresh character on a fresh account shouldn't be able to access it due to their rarity).
I've made a little diagram of what I have in mind at least, apologies if this screws up the aspect ratio of the page :S
I don't like giving special rewards to a few people in guilds. This way, everyone would create the smallest guild possible and upgrade themselves.
You have to be able to play a special class even without entering a guild, and more, without needing a high rank in it.Still, there must be a limit so that you don't have entire squads of chaplains or so. But a cooldown and a resource cost seems way more appropriated.
Tbh, I wanna play those special classes, even if I have to play for a while at the game. But I don't wanna be forced to join a guild and rank up in it for that. And I'm pretty sure the vast majority of players don't necessary want this social investment to upgrade their own strength.
This kind of unlocks should be accessible to "solo" players, even if only late in the game.
hm i may think to much about it
but imagine lots of players will stay to this game and level up quickly that they get access to all that special classes and then we will have thousands of librarians running around and burn the whole planet
my solution is bad but would keep realistic amount of special units
i would love a system that let a character stay to his choosen class for ever just rank up through different ranks of that class
and if i want to play another class i need another character
thats RPG for me
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