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Beta 3 Combat Overview: Discuss
Murugan
Member Posts: 1,494
As I think by now people have heard their fill of the enlightened opinions of those who play FFXIV by standing in one spot pressing 1, 2, 3 or rolling their face on their keyboard I thought some people might be interested in a different perspective. Perhaps a more in depth look at combat as of beta 3. This is not a post defending it, I don't care if you like combat in this game or not I would just like an opportunity for a slightly more intelligent conversation regarding it.
Some people claim that the game has the "same" combat as X other game. This is factually incorrect, even as of phase 3 there are many facets of the combat system that when taken together offer a unique experience within the genre. Like it or hate it, these are the facts:
I want to talk about this first because it should affect how you play in a party in order to maximize its usefulness. As you score critical hits, heals, do damage, avoid being damaged by special attacks, earn the full potency of abilities by using them in the proper combination and from the correct positional requirement, stripping buffs, and perform heroic actions like healing a player with critical health or stunning/otherwise preventing a special attack you fill a gauge called the Limit Break meter.
How fast your group fills this meter depends on how every person in that group plays their role, and if you don't work together to maximize it you run the risk of not having it available as often as you could or when needed by a particular situation.
The gauge can fill as much as 3x, however this limit is dependent upon the encounter with certain encounters allowing only lower level limit breaks to be performed. The actual limit break themselves break down by the role of the person who fires it, they are:
Youtube video of limit breaks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LWeTxlVXVTE#t=173s
- Tier I. Braver- Delivers a 2300 potency attack.
- Tier II. Bladedance: Delivers a 5000 potency attack.
- Tier III. Final Heaven: Delivers a 9000 potency attack.
- Tier I. Skyshard- Deals elementally neutral damage with a potency of 1400 to all enemies near point of impact.
- Tier II. Starstorm: Deals elementally neutral damage with a potency of 3000 to all enemies near point of impact.
- Tier III. Meteor Deals elementally neutral damage with a potency of 5400 to all enemies near point of impact.
To gauge how powerful and encounter changing these attacks are most weapon skills deal from 100-200 potency, these can be 50x more powerful..
Tank (Warrior, Paladin)
- Tier I. Shield Wall- Reduces damage taken by all party members by 10% for 10 seconds.
- Tier II. Bladedance: Reduces damage taken by all party members by 20% for 15 seconds.
- Tier III. Last Bastion: (giant wall in video): Reduces damage taken by all party members by 50% for 12 seconds.
Support (White Mage, Scholar, Bard)
- Tier I. Healing Wind- Restores 25% of own HP and HP of all nearby party members.
- Tier II. Breath of Earth: Restores 60% of own HP and HP of all nearby party members.
- Tier III. Pulse of Life: Restores 100% of own HP and HP of all nearby party members including those KO'd.
Their use is up to the party, and will have to be weighed on a by encounter, and possibly per situation basis depending on the fight's course. It is important to pay attention to fine play, and to raise the gauge as fast as possible. This is a total team effort and the team benefits greatly from these abilities so it is worth it to do whatever you can to help.
All I can say is as difficulty ramps up, teams that fill the gauge quickly and use the limit breaks appropriately will have very powerful tools at their disposal to help them.
2. Group Play: Tanking, and holding aggro
There are two primary tanks so far in FFXIV: the Paladin, which has very impressive defensive abilities; and Warrior whose mechanics revolve around generating massive amounts of enmity. Both are suitable defensive tanks, and both can generate acceptable enmity on both single targets and groups when played effectively.
Provoke in FFXIV is not a force target, and it is not an enmity generator. Provoke raises the tank to the top of the hate list matching the previous holder of aggro's enmity. As enmity is equal any action by the person you provoked from will result in the mob's focus returning to them until you can generate enmity of your own.
Due to this mechanic there is a great benefit to having multiple tanks in group/raid who can share tanking responsibilties as well as jointly raise the enmity bar for the group.
All other members of the party should keep an eye on their enmity which appears, along with a ranking next to your character's name in the group panel.
3. Group Play: Avoiding Damage
This is straightforward and pretty basic, but this is what kills every group and every player. Enemies have special attacks, you want to avoid or minimize their damage to you so that you can survive the encounter. Though hopefully the enemy's focus is on your tank 100% of the time, that doesn't mean the rest of the group is safe.
FFXIV encounters have a high number of special attacks, many of which can quickly wipe an unexpecting and unprepared party. Many of these have casting times, next to the mob's HP bar a casting bar will appear. This is your chance to act, you have two options.
Try and prevent it
There are a variety of stuns available in this game spread out across jobs. Paladin, Warrior, Monk, White Mage, and Dragoon all have stuns. They all work differently, with limitations and advantages.
For example Monk's Steel Peak ignores the Skill cooldown, so they are generally able to react the fastest. Paladin has a pacification ability that requires a block in order to stun, however it does not suffer from the same immunity problems other jobs run into if they spam their stun too often.
You have a limit amount of time, depending upon the casting ability to stun it. Not all special abilities can be stunned, and as mentioned immunities to certain stuns build with use so choosing the right time to use them is important.
Try and avoid it
Run away. Seems simple, "get out of the fire", and it is simple. If it is a frontal move to the side, or just run through the mob (but please don't turn the mob on your group only to have it recast another frontal and wipe them). If it is an AOE generally you get this nice big red circle outlining its range (or other visual cues like the plumes and cracks in the Ifrit fight). However people get tunnel vision focusing on playing their role effectively, they don't pay attention to the mob for a second and they die.
4. Group Play: Crowd Control
Ideally you want to sleep adds if you can. For that you have Black Mages with sleep, and White Mages with Repose. Sleep has the bonus of being an AOE after you obtain the level 36 trait. Sleeping gives diminishing returns, and eventually you will have to deal with slept enemies another way.
Binding is great for mobs that do not have a devastating ranged attack. Bard, Warrior, and Black Mage have access to binds. They all work differently.
Bard has a single target bind that lasts for a solid 10 seconds (no diminishing returns), however it has a 12 second recast. So one bard cannot keep a mob indefinitely in one place. It is also broken upon damage.
Warrior's Holmgang is another good single target bind, with the advantage of not being broken by damage, However it also binds the warrior in the same spot.
Black Mages have a ground target AOE that covers an area in ice, binding them as soon as they enter dealing ice damage over time, it has a high mana cost. Also seems to suffer from diminishing returns.
5. Group Play: Debuffing
Debuffing has two meanings. There is the literal definition, removing an enemy's buff and there is the common use definition of applying negative status effects to weaken an enemy. Both are present in FFXIV. Many classes also have debuffs which weaken enemies to their attacks, but I'll talk about that more in discussions on specific jobs dealing damage.
One Lim Punch- A raptor form attack that removes one beneficial status effect from the enemy (can only be used in Raptor form).
Negative status effects are available in the form of Slow (Dragoon *able to be substituted to Monk*, and Black Mage), Blind (Bard, and self AOE as Black Mage), Silence (Bard, Paladin, and Monk), and Gravity or movement speed reduction (Black Mage and White Mage), Virus (Summoner, White Mage, Black Mage, Scholar), and Foe Requiem.
Summoners and scholars can cast cast Virus to debuff the enemy's STR/DEX/INT/MND by 15% (Black Mages and White Mages can only debuff STR/DEX).
6. Group Play: Support
Paladins, White Mages, Bards, and Scholars can heal other players. The rest can heal themselves in a limited fashion.
Healing
Primary healers are White Mage and Scholar. Not much is known about Scholar abilities yet, but White Mage is the only job currently with the ability to use upper tier curing magic and Regen.
Raising
Can currently only be done in battle by a White Mage (exception being a bard with a level 3 Limit Break)
Healing Potency Buffs
The Monk ability Mantra increases curing magic on the monk and in an Aura around him/her 10% for the next 15 seconds.
Damage Shield
Stoneskin is white magic usable by White Mage, Bard, Scholar and Paladin it grants a Damage Shield equal to 10% of the target's total HP (18% if White Mage).
Scholar's Succor is also a damage shield, and their Sacred Soil ability creates an area where everyone inside takes 10% less damage for 15s with a 20% chance your next Succor II will cost no MP. Can only proc under Aetherflow.
Esuna/Leeches
White Mage ability that removes one negative status effect. Leeches is the Summoner version.
Bard Songs
These are not something you throw up at the start of the fight and refresh when they wear off. Bard songs carry with them a pretty steep MP drain, and some also have a 20% personal damage reduction for the bard while singing them. They are meant to be situational. Right now in addition to Swiftsong (out of combat speed buff) there are three bard songs:
- Mage's Ballad: MP Regen, lowers Bard damage potency by 20% while singing.
- Foe Requim: Reduces Enemy Elemental Resistance by 10%
- Army's Paeon: Refreshes TP, lowers Bard damage potency by 20% while singing.
Healing Fairy abilities (Scholar)
-Whispering Dawn: AoE regen around pet. Potency 100 for 21s. 30s recast.
-Embrace (both forms): 300 potency cure.
-Silent Dawn: Silences for 1s. 40s recast.
Support Fairy abilities
-Fey Glow: Increases Spell speed around pet by 30% for 30s. 60s Recast. Cant use at same time as Fey Light.
-Fey Covenant: Increases Magic Defense around fairy by 20% for 20s. Recast 2m
-Fey Light: Increases skill speed around pet by 30% for 30s. 60s Recast. Cant use at same time as Fey Glow.
-Fey Illumination: Increases Cure magic potency around pet by 20% for 20s. Recast 2m.
7. Group Play: Dealing Damage
The main damage dealing jobs in the game are Black Mage, Dragoon, Monk, Bard and Summmoner. They all have different playstyles, I thought about detailing them all but it would be longer than everything I have written already combined. So I'll just go over two jobs, the two DD's I played most often in Beta 3.
Monk
Monk combat centers around “Form dancing”, this is different from other job's combos. Once you use a skill in one form, it transitions you into the next.
Opo-opo Form (which are also openers not requiring a form but losing their bonuses without it)>Raptor>Couerl
So at 50:
(Single Target DPS)
Starter/Opo=
Dragon Kick (flank): up until 50 this is Bootshine(rear), once you get Dragon Kick you will want to work it in for the debuff. Dragon kick has the same tp cost, higher potency 150>130, and adds another status effect for you to manage (Blunt resistance down 15 s).
The reason you want to keep Bootshine in rotation is that it is 100% crit, so it will do more damage as long as you are behind.
Raptor=
Twin Snakes (flank): 140 potency 10% damage bonus buff for 12s (roughly every other chain it needs to be reapplied to keep it up at all times)
True Strike (rear): 150 potency, 5%crit dmg bonus
Couerl (grants Greased Lightning: 7% dmg, 5% attack speed)=
Demolish (rear): 40 potency, 18 second DoT (assuming 3 sec tics that is 240 potency)
Snap Punch (flank): 180 potency.
Non-GCD, Non-Form requiring attacks:
Howling Fist: 170 Potency (warning, straight line frontal attack) 60 second recast
Steel Peak: 150 Potency + Stun
Subbed weapon skill:
Impulse Drive (rear): 180 potency,
Mercy Stroke (under 20%): 200 potency, 90 second recast (does not incur a GCD)
Buffs at 50:
Blood for Blood: DMG +20% (warning, dmg suffered also increased by 25%), recast 80 seconds
Internal Release: Increases crit rate by 30%, duration 15 seconds, recast 60 seconds.
Perfect Balance: Removes form restrictions for 10 seconds (4 min recast)
Monk play revolves around keeping up your Dragon Kick blunt damage debuff, your twin snakes damage buff, and most importantly your stack of 3 greased lightning buffs (you may decide to use Perfect Balance to stack these right away). Greased lightning makes monk arguably the fastest paced job in FFXIV, when you couple this with the heavy positional requirements to get the full benefit out of it's weapon skills it becomes a very "active" job to play.
The key to monk is remember that you have to plan ahead somewhat in your attacks, if you fail to do this you will drop one of your buffs/debuffs. If it is Greased Lightning, which happens to require Couerl form (only available after a sucessful Opo-Opo then Raptor form attack), you are going to have to rebuild your buff while no longer benefiting from increased skill speed/damage. Keeping Touch of Death, and Demolish DoT's up is also important. Bootshine (at least in Opo-opo form) is a very powerful attack, don't be misled by its low potency the 100% crit makes it very powerful.
Monks are not ONLY damage dealers in FFXIV, but even just dealing damage requires a lot more knowledge of the job than a simple rotation. A "unique" key log of 30+ actions is required to get the most out of your damage, and at that point it isn't much of a rotation at all. Add in delays due to dodging attacks, helping in your stun duties, removing enemy buffs, and more depending on a situation if you think you can go read some guide and then play this job effectively you are wrong.
A good monk knows what all of their abilities do, and has the ability to think fast on his/her feet to adjust to the rotation while keeping the synergy of its buffs/debuff and forms always in consideration and planning two steps ahead of the situation as it evolves.
At this point MMORPG.com deleted the rest of my post (which was about as much as is written up to this point), I'll update it later with more information on Monk, Black Mage, the Learning Curve and Balance. There is plenty to discuss already.
Learning Curve
Balance
There you have it an honest, and (somewhat) comprehensive overview of combat in FFXIV. Feel free to discuss any aspect, or I can answer any questions you might have.
I am a huge fan of group play in MMORPG's with endgame experience in a number of titles including FFXI, EQ1/2, Vanguard, LotRO, WoW, Warhammer Online, SWTOR, GW2, Tera, Aion, and AoC. The bulk of my MMORPG playtime has been spent in FFXI, EQ2, Vanguard, and FFXIV. I am not a game hopper valuing community and the people I play with above all else, however how MMORPG's allow us to play together is of utmost importance to me. If I used jargon you don't understand I apologize my MMORPG vocabulary was colored mostly by those four games.
Discussion so far:
Addition of Scholar for Phase 4
Originally posted by MuruganSo of the changes slated for phase 4 (presuming they are what we are getting as there is no official word yet) the biggest announcement is Scholar imo.
Scholar is a game changer for group combat in FFXIV. Specifically two things, the introduction of a different type of healer, and the support abilities of the Scholar's pet fairy.
These abilities tied to the support Fairy (there is also a healing fairy which looks interesting):
-Fey Glow: Increases Spell speed around pet by 30% for 30s. 60s Recast. Cant use at same time as Fey Light.
-Fey Covenant: Increases Magic Defense around fairy by 20% for 20s. Recast 2m
-Fey Light: Increases skill speed around pet by 30% for 30s. 60s Recast. Cant use at same time as Fey Glow.
-Fey Illumination: Increases Cure magic potency around pet by 20% for 20s. Recast 2m.
The other change is how the Scholar heals demonstrated by these abilities:
(Lv6) Aetherflow: Restores 20% of maximum MP.
(Lv8) Enhanced Aetherflow I: Grants 1 stack of Aetherflow when Aetherflow is cast.(Lv30) Succor: Restores target hp. Potency of 300. Erects a barrier nullifying damage equal to the amount of hp restored. When heal crits, barried doubles.
(Lv35) Succor II: Restores Hp in an area around the caster. Potency 150. Grants a shield to each member healed that nullifies damage equal to the cure.
(Lv40) Enhanced Aetherflow III: Grants 3 stack of Aetherflow when Aetherflow is cast.
(Lv45) Sacred Soil: Creates an area where everyone inside takes 10% less damage. Duration 15s. 20% Next Succor II will cost no MP. Can only proc under Aetherflow.
Lv50) Lustrate: Restores 20% of Target's maximum hp. 1s GCD. Only available under Aetherflow.
The addition of these support abilities, and an additional type of healing greatly changes (and imo improves) group play in FFXIV. I look forward to utilizing them in raids and single group content. I hope this is a hint that with the addition of future jobs we will see more styles of healing added.
I look forward to the day when our 24 person raids utilize varied healing styles on par with Vanguard. This is a nice step in that direction.
Moving in combat and "Tera" style combat
Originally posted by MuruganOriginally posted by Masterfuzzfuzz
Tera.
Almost all spells have secondary effects (debuffs, buffs, next spell modifiers, ground modifiers).
You actually have to move while playing. Side stepping will dodge a directional attack. All the attacks have cool animations without flooding your screen with particles. Your positioning determines damage, enemies have weak points. Hitting a mob in the back who has a shell does less damage. It's not perfect but it's definitely fun. It's better than spamming a rotation. GRANTED some of the casting classes can be boring and fall into a rotation like sorcs, but not in more complex dungeons with multiple mobs. Kiting is necessary sometimes and managing skills to not wake CC'd mobs.
In FFXIV, if an enemy casts on you, no matter how or where you move, it will hit you. almost every single ability is a targeted ability.
EDIT: Tera's COMBAT is amazing. The rest of the game is generic shit. Don't get me wrong.
FFXIV:
- Your positioning determines your damage.
- Almost all attacks have secondary and tertiary effects (mostly wh en used in combo or at a certain position relative to the mob)
- You can move to avoid enemy special attacks.
In FFXIV if an enemy casts on you depending on how you move it will not hit you, almost no special ability is a targeted ability that cannot be averted.
You obviously didn't read the OP at all, but that's okay this clearly is not the game for you so I can see why you wouldn't want to even skim through all of that before you posted.
But you were right about one thing Tera has weakpoints (it also has a simplified hotbar and lackluster abilities imo). Only certain encounters in FFXIV have this as part of their design. Which is good because if you coudln't attack from behind (or any direction) then most fights would put certain jobs at a huge disadvantage due to those jobs having positional requirements.
How FFXIV will handle this is to make separate targetable areas, rather than use a reticule for anything but ground attack attacks. This way someone can still do rear/flank damage to say Behemoth's tail, in order to disable a certain attack.
Oversimplification in early levels.
Originally posted by MuruganOriginally posted by gessekai332
great post, looking forward to more. the combat system in ffxiv seems like it has a lot to offer but its a shame they make it oversimplified for the first 20 levels or so :P.That's what I wanted to talk about in the Leveling Curve.
Basically it feels like they gave up on "jaded" MMORPG veterans. The intro dungeons, class quests, and guildhests are actually really awesome tools for what they are, introductions to important mechanics that players need to experience in order to learn properly.
Reading guides on the internet has ruined so many MMORPG gamers and communities. I think a lot of us older players have forgotten how we got hooked on MMORPG's. It was through learning by doing.
I certainly wouldn't be here today if I had gotten to the dunes and been screamed at by some nasely teenager over teamspeak because I was using a fire sword as a warrior (had no idea when I first started FFXI that the fire stats on the sword were elemental resistance, I thought they were elemental damage). Nor was I aware that swords had a low rating for Warrior and that I should be using a great axe. But you know without being able to be a noob, I never would have gotten hooked on the social aspect of MMORPG's. I would have likely continued to see them as the refuge of "neckbeards" whose idea of fun was harassing others in a virtual domain where they could feel more important than they did in their real lives.
I find it a shame that today's MMORPG player is more likely to be turned off of grouping/raiding/socializing due to the rabid elitism, impatience, and antisocial behavior that permeates all modern MMORPG's. It is no wonder in the face of that we have a majority of MMORPG studios, almost all contributors to this site, and legions of posters launching a full on attack on socializing and becoming a genuine part of a community in MMORPG's.
If Yoshida has to train a new generation of MMORPG players in an environment where the first time they mess up they are not crucified by their group in order to revive grouping in the industry then frankly I'm all for it. I know where to go for my challenging content, and I actually really enjoy helping new players learn the ropes.
Maybe some balancing is in order to find a more happy medium, but I'd gladly sacrifice everyone who has a problem with the learning curve for some real social players in my MMORPG.. That's what I'm all about. I don't even like to play Single Player RPG's unless I am given an NPC party to adventure with. I think a lot of Final Fantasy fans can identify with that. These games are about GROUP PLAY.
Comments
Excellent post!
Are those damage numbers for limit breaks confirmed? I'm a bit peeved that BLM limit break damage is way less than the melee dps limit break. Granted it's AoE, but I can imagine most endgame encounters will be single target bosses, no?
BTW would you mind talking a bit about BLM mechanics? What roles do they have? It's the job I'm most interested in. Is CC a big part of dungeon play? I really hope so. Very tired of new MMOs where you can just speed through a dungeon without any need for CC.
Does it look cool? Yes
Is it boring and generic? Yes
There isn't much skill behind the combat which is what I think most people complained about. I played with some friends and the game felt alright. Pretty normal MMO in our eyes. You walk up, tab-target, cast your highest damage spell or do your rotation, repeat. It never felt bad but it felt incredibly average and normal. It's hard for combat to be different and fun without it turning into an action game like Tera. Tera's game was pretty bad but their combat is unrivaled by a lot of my friends and I.
FFXIV's combat isn't bad, but it's nothing special. It's the same generic combat that everyone has played since 2004 and that's the main complaint I feel. Yeah maybe it adds some kind of combo system that you'll hit randomly without trying. Point is, you don't have to try to do anything to be successful at it. You press the buttons and use the skills. Damage skills aren't very different. They just do damage with different names/cast times
Potency ils not the same the same thing as damage, it is just showing a stat that in previous MMO's was unavailable (how strong one skill is in comparison with another).
Second yes it is AOE and a MASSIVE AOE at that. Compared to other AOE's available it is as powerful as Final Heaven if not more so, and I can think of a good number of encounters from 1.2x I would have liked to have such a limit break at our disposal on.
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Except it really isn't unless you over generalize to the point that every MMORPG from Everquest forward has the "same combat" with the exception of whatever MMORPG you hold as unique (like hack and slash games).
You don't cast your highest damage spell or do your rotation, and "repeat". That is why I made this thread, I guess you can play like that but you are not using the combat system as intended.
For example here is monk.. "spam your highest damage spell or do your rotation" okay... my highest damage ability (not on a long cooldown) is Bootshine.
So I just spam bootshine? Oh wait, I can't spam bootshine because it only gives 100% crit while in Opo Form, so it is more like something along the lines of:
Enter fight:
Run to the mob's flank:
Dragon Kick, Perfect Balance (Snap Punch, Snap Punch, Twin Snakes) (skill speed is now reduced by an additional 15%), Touch of Death
Run behind the mob
Blood for Blood (Demolish, Bootshine, Internal Release (Impulse Drive, True Strike ->
Run to the flank
Snap Punch, Dragon Kick+Howling Fist+Steel Peak), Twin Snakes, Snap Punch
Run to the back
Bootshine, True Strike, Demolish
Run to the flank
Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, Snap Punch, Touch of Death
Run to the back
Bootshine, True Strike
Run to the flank
Snap Punch, Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes
That's the first minute of the encounter and completely separate from reaction to any enemy abilities unique to the encounter.
For Black Mage I just spam my best spell?
Oh so Fire III? I can cast 3-4 of those then I am out of mp. Oh well I can transpose switch to Umbral ice and regen MP. Only that isn't my highest damage from a spell. My highest damage comes from my Thunder line thanks to Thunderstorm. I can stack three separate thunder DoT's, and then every time those tick there is a chance I can proc the ability to cast any thunder spell free of MP cost with full DoT damage delivered instantly in one attack (actually more potency than would be delivered through the DoT, plus reapplying that DoT).
So maybe I just spam Thunder then right? Oh except that Astral Fire gives me a damage boost with each stack, and the third tier gives me reduced casting time on all spells... but it also increases MP cost with every cast. So hmm which one spell do I use?
Anyways you play the way you describe the game, I'll play the way I decide to play the game and be grateful that I'm not limited by your playstyle/misconceptions about the way the combat system actually works.
I think it is only fair you describe the wonderful combat system you enjoy in your MMO of choice though so people have a frame of reference.
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You don't have to. But it's equally effective. I have no reason to do anything but cast my highest damaging combo. Even if the system allows or is designed for something else. You can't even move while casting like GW2. It's a step backwards imo. The point isn't what it's designed for. It's whats effective. There is no reason NOT to run a rotation when it's equally effective or effective enough to clear the game.. Most mobs will die before you run out of mana or be close enough that it doesn't matter. Also, managing mana is part of making a rotation.
EDIT: You're right, i over simplified. But my complaint with the combat was that the unique features they have and the way spells work isn't integral to succeeding in combat. I don't feel compelled to play your way, even though you enjoy it more.
Tera.
Almost all spells have secondary effects (debuffs, buffs, next spell modifiers, ground modifiers).
You actually have to move while playing. Side stepping will dodge a directional attack. All the attacks have cool animations without flooding your screen with particles. Your positioning determines damage, enemies have weak points. Hitting a mob in the back who has a shell does less damage. It's not perfect but it's definitely fun. It's better than spamming a rotation. GRANTED some of the casting classes can be boring and fall into a rotation like sorcs, but not in more complex dungeons with multiple mobs. Kiting is necessary sometimes and managing skills to not wake CC'd mobs.
In FFXIV, if an enemy casts on you, no matter how or where you move, it will hit you. almost every single ability is a targeted ability.
EDIT: Tera's COMBAT is amazing. The rest of the game is generic shit. Don't get me wrong.
Keep telling yourself that it is equally effective, it isn't. Also you haven't cleared the game, and so I find it amusing you think you know what is required. Based on what exactly?
Also casting while running is cheap, magic users should not be able to run while casting it completely defeats the purpose of giving them cast times if they can simply do whatever they want while they channel the spell.
But okay so you prefer GW2's combat. I myself am not a fan of that system. So a step in any direction away from that is a big step up in my opinion. But I hope you enjoy your MMORPG of choice, I just don't think you really quite understand this game's combat system very well if you think you can use your "highest damaging combo" or "highest damage spell" and that is all that will ever be demanded of you.
Though if you do think that, I can certainly see how it would bore you. I'm bored just talking about it, thank god I don't have to play that way in this game.
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FFXIV:
In FFXIV if an enemy casts on you depending on how you move it will not hit you, almost no special ability is a targeted ability.
You obviously didn't read the OP at all, but that's okay this clearly is not the game for you so I can see why you wouldn't want to even skim through all of that before you posted.
But you were right about one thing Tera has weakpoints (it also has a simplified hotbar and lackluster abilities imo). Only certain encounters in FFXIV have this as part of their design. Which is good because if you coudln't attack from behind (or any direction) then most fights would put certain jobs at a huge disadvantage due to those jobs having positional requirements.
How FFXIV will handle this is to make separate targetable areas, rather than use a reticule for anything but ground attack attacks. This way someone can still do rear/flank damage to say Behemoth's tail, in order to disable a certain attack.
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FFXIV wasn't bad but wasn't great. Would play but would not pay
Agree to disagree?
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Absolutely, as I said I kinda wish you had actually read my OP before you resopnded to my thread but it's okay. People like different things and this thread is not about convincing you or anyone else otherwise.
People who play MMORPG's they don't enjoy are the WORST. I can log out of forums if I don't want to hear someone ranting about something I enjoy, but a community in an MMORPG that is something I take pride in. I want to play with like minded people, who enjoy themselves, and I hope you find/already have that too. It is what these games are all about.
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Fair enough. Fortunately for you, you probably won't run into me in FFXIV then XD. Well done post man. Did you make the gifs?
That's what I wanted to talk about in the Leveling Curve.
Basically it feels like they gave up on "jaded" MMORPG veterans. The intro dungeons, class quests, and guildhests are actually really awesome tools for what they are, introductions to important mechanics that players need to experience in order to learn properly.
Reading guides on the internet has ruined so many MMORPG gamers and communities. I think a lot of us older players have forgotten how we got hooked on MMORPG's. It was through learning by doing.
I certainly wouldn't be here today if I had gotten to the dunes and been screamed at by some nasely teenager over teamspeak because I was using a fire sword as a warrior (had no idea when I first started FFXI that the fire stats on the sword were elemental resistance, I thought they were elemental damage). Nor was I aware that swords had a low rating for Warrior and that I should be using a great axe. But you know without being able to be a noob, I never would have gotten hooked on the social aspect of MMORPG's. I would have likely continued to see them as the refuge of "neckbeards" whose idea of fun was harassing others in a virtual domain where they could feel more important than they did in their real lives.
I find it a shame that today's MMORPG player is more likely to be turned off of grouping/raiding/socializing due to the rabid elitism, impatience, and antisocial behavior that permeates all modern MMORPG's. It is no wonder in the face of that we have a majority of MMORPG studios, almost all contributors to this site, and legions of posters launching a full on attack on socializing and becoming a genuine part of a community in MMORPG's.
If Yoshida has to train a new generation of MMORPG players in an environment where the first time they mess up they are not crucified by their group in order to revive grouping in the industry then frankly I'm all for it. I know where to go for my challenging content, and I actually really enjoy helping new players learn the ropes.
Maybe some balancing is in order to find a more happy medium, but I'd gladly sacrifice everyone who has a problem with the learning curve for some real social players in my MMORPG.. That's what I'm all about. I don't even like to play Single Player RPG's unless I am given an NPC party to adventure with. I think a lot of Final Fantasy fans can identify with that. These games are about GROUP PLAY.
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Monk is definitely can be a crazy job to play, and you can get similar damage numbers if that is all you are looking for without as much work playing those two jobs you suggested (not that they are "faceroll" or "easymode" either they have a lot of depth if you look for it in the right places). But I felt like in my playtime Monk while daunting at first, was in the end a very rewarding experience, plus it has some awesome utility.
One lim punch removing beneficial enemy buffs is huge.
Steel Peak being non-GCD is huge.
Plus Monk might be the most effective DD at raising the limit break meter depending on the weighting of positional bonuses, and "combo/form use" in the final version.
My favorite monk in video games was Vanguard's Drunken Monk. But I think Yoshida and the team here might have made the most faithful adaptation to monk as per the typical RPG description of them. You just gotta get used to playing it, there is no substitute to playtime spent in a group (at least until we get dummies we can palce in our houses). No theorycrafting will prepare you to be a good monk in FFXIV (as it stands right now), and if you follow that little "rotation" I gave you I don't think you are going to be happy with the experience..
You are right it is super easy to forget what you are doing, what buffs you need to refresh, how long you have on a DoT when you are running around and balancing all this crap.
But keep at it and eventually it becomes more like your 2nd nature, you lose that tunnel vision you will almost undoubtedly start off with and just go with it. It really has this flow in it that I think captures the essence of being a Monk.
As for what you should play, play everything. Tell yourself you are going to stick to one job if you need to in order to reach endgame levels, but you can always go backa nd level something else. This is just a sample of the total number of jobs that will be in game, and I think if you stick iwth it long term you will end up enjoying a good number of other jobs.
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Ok, sounds good.
This is the only thing you said that supports your intro paragraph. The rest of that gigantic blurb of text just reiterates basic MMO combat elements that have been repeated game to game.. The limit breaks are unique and interesting and have potential (and at the very least look awesome), and that's pretty much all that (positively) differentiates this game from any other tab>target MMO as far as combat is concerned.
Regardless, I don't think the main complaint about the combat is the overall mechanics. It's the god awful and needlessly SSSSSLLLLOOOOWWW pacing. I mean if you're going to use tab>target combat, fine... but don't make it even more dreary that it already is.
I'm sure the combat gets more interesting at end-game, but that's just speculation at this point. From the little I've played, it's just short of a glass of warm milk when it comes to putting me to sleep.
And yet it is probably too much for most to handle honestly at max level unless they really took the time to truly learn their jobs on the way up (something I think most "modern" MMO veterans will not bother doing).. But the extra letters really drives home your point of disatisfaction, good edit. I love how people think two seconds for attacks and spells (not abilities, not non-cooldown skills, not movement) is unbareable. I mean it doesn't surprise me, but I just laugh when people like you say it is "god awful" and yet I don't see people "facerolling" correctly too often.
I guess it still isn't slow enough for most people. Either you are exceptional or you really don't know what you are talkign about, but I'm feeling nice so here is a smiley face. You are "too good" to play this MMORPG, go play one that requires real skill like GW2 or Tera. You are the future! Don't worry about me here, just go show the world how amazing you are.
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That the combat system pacing is terrible has nothing to do with my skill or yours. It just means the combat systems pacing is terrible. You sound a little defensive about being bad at gaming, don't worry... I won't judge you.
Thank you, but I need my terrible pacing. If they took it away I couldn't play a job like monk as it is designed currently, you could probably but you are better than I. You can run faster, attack faster, push buttons faster (I mean it is all pushing buttons) but you do it lightning quick and with all the strategic thinking of a grandmaster at chess or equivelent super computer. [mod edit]
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[mod edit]
Pointing out a single class with unique mechanics that might require that sort of pacing doesn't discount for the other "x" amount of classes that are twiddling their thumbs. That's bad game design.
I also want to point out how ridiculous this statement is. Because it's not just 2 seconds... it's 2 seconds almost every 2 seconds. That's nearly half the pace of every other major tab>target game. If you can't comprehend how a 100% slowdown in pace over the standard tab>target game might not be received favorably by people that have been playing games with 1-1.5 second GCD games for the last decade, you're hopelessly lost.
SWTOR was criticized for it's combat pacing and it's 50% faster than FF XIV.
What does 2 seconds almost every 2 seconds mean? I don't even know what you are talking about now, are you talking about casting spells? Because that is not true, the spell cool down is incurred as soon as you start casting not onced it finishes.
SWTOR had bad combat. It was extremely simple, and easy to master. I don't care if it had 1 second global cooldowns or 10, I didn't need any time to know what I was going to use next. FFXIV is different, I'm sorry if you don't see that. But ithat's just the way it is.
Keep convincing yourself that you are a ninja in training with your "action combat" or whatever in games with limited hotbars and simple systems. Ooooh you press click click click or 1, 1, 1, sooooooo fast that looks exhilarating. What part of it do you think takes more skill painting the gaming equivalant of the side of a barn with a reticule to "aim", or the durability of your mouse as you pound away furiously. Let's put it in perspective I've played the games you have. Here are my thoughts on them:
WoW'c combat is a balance mess.
Rift's combat is a macro simplified snoozefest.
SWTOR is simplistic as it relies on a limited prioity rotation for most of its combat classes, much of endgame is spent spamming a few abilities.
GW2 has no trinity and is a complete mess of a PvE grouping experience.
Vanguard was never balanced right, and suffered from many issues with macro simplification of certain classes, regressed rotations, but still was better than most of the above. Many good ideas like the weakness system were underutilized due to engine problems.
FFXI did it right with skill chains, but suffered from balance and ultimately neglected the best part about it (the skill chains) in favor of pathetically simple spamming.
EQ2 underutilized sympathetic actions, boring and often short rotations, auto attack weaving is ridiculous for certain melee DD (that is not my idea of fun timing skills with auto attack)
What FFXIV has to make it stand out as exceptional are these three things that all these other games don't offer together:
People look for different things, you look for the fastest button mashers maybe. But this is what I want from my MMORPG: good grouping. We have it in FFXIV, it has been lacking in MMORPG's for far too long. Call me when you think you have an MMORPG in mind with better group mechanics because I have looked. Maybe it is "too slow for you", but your games don't exactly meet my standards either or I would be playing them. Hell most of them are cash shop games now, I not only wouldn't buy their pixels but I'd evidently rather play nothing at all than continue to play them for FREE.
I feel bad, I take flyers from people on the street and stand and listen to them drone on about their band or a product I would never buy just to be polite, but here are these people trying to give me a game for free I can play with thousands of people over the internet that they (and you) say are fun and I'm just saying to them "no thanks".
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Maybe I can offer another perspective on combat in MMOs, coming from my own experience.
I am turning 32 in August. The game will release 2 days before my birthday. I have played MMOs since FFXI released in the states, so maybe over 10 years how. I have played practically every major mmo released, bu the ones I played for an extended period of time were FFXI (2 years), WoW (4 years), LoTRO (6 months), Aion (6 months), SWTOR (4 months), GW2 (4 months), Tera (2 weeks) and FFXIV (from release until now, but took 6 months off because the game was horrendous until YoshiP took over)..
Having gone through that, I've come to the realization that action combat is too draining for me at this stage of my life. I don't enjoy it in long sessions. It makes my fingers tired and my brain numb. Though I like WoW's combat, no one here can say it has the best animations but it's refined, has an amazingly responsive engine and the classes have depth. However, I remember just spamming my keyboard because the GCD is too fast for my taste. I was spamming devestate between shield slams on my warrior, weaving in situational abilities and cooldowns in between the GCD, but I just can't do that anymore. I am starting to really appreciate FFXIV and the pacing.
I'm glad GW2 doesn't have any end game raiding because the combat would be horrible. A gigantic cluster fuck of 20+ people running like chickens with their heads cut off, dodging little red circles on the ground, while they use limited number of abilities as soon as they are off the cooldown, while battle rezzing fallen comrades. REGARDLESS of the encounter, majority of your time is spent running around, dodging. In short spurts, it's fun, and some of the countent design is also, like the ice fractal and the fractal requiring the use of crystals to reflect the beam on the boss. But can you imagine this type of combat during a 2 hour raid? It would be draining and shallow IMHO. GW2 combat is responsive, but it doesn't save the game for those of us who love raiding and who learned (because of GW2) that we prefer a holy trinity game.
Tera.... my first BAM was soooo cool. You had to dodge, and or block.... Then I realized that the whole combat was a shallow gimmick. The BAM abilities were recycled so predicting them was super easy.... Dodge attack.... block attack... dodge attack... block attack. The combat is still better than some other games but with Tera, everything else was terrible (the questing, and WoW art style, etc). Again, my opinion.
I think Murugan has done an amazing job with summarizing the aspects of FFXIV's battle system. However, that's only 50% of the total consideration on whether the battle system is "fun." The other half is the PvE and PvP encounter design for end game content. More PvE than PvP since this is SE, and PvE is their thing. What made WoW special wasn't the combat per se, but the encounter design in conjunction with the combat. WoW doesn't play like an action game where you have the urge to just go kill because the combat is its own reward. The reward came in the raid setting, where the combat is intricately woven into the encounter itself.
I feel SE is trying to accomplish the same thing. AT lvl 50, and btw, I have every class at lvl 50, half of my abilities are on the global cooldown and half are not. What this means is, I can weave in an ability in between the GCD while keeping my weapon skills on a priority rotation. My DRG is using the Chaos Thrust combo finisher chain to add a DoT on boss with self buff on you, to transitioning to your main DPS combo.... if Adds spawn you transition to your AoE combo.. or use your AoE abilties such as Ring of Thorns or Disembowel.
For warrior, it's using your primary hate weapon skill rotation, while weaving in your self-buff Maim rotation, which also includes a debuff on the boss. You strategically build Wrath stacks which gives you an innate +10% chance to crit, making you infuriated, and opening up two abilities that can be used situationally, Inner Beast (Single Target Burst Weapon Skill) or Aoe Burst Steel Cyclone, with a healing component built into the damage. Not to mention, strategically using your defensive cooldowns to mitigate damage, while you use offensive abilities like Berserk in between your weapon skills to either increase enmity generation or, do additional damage by combining it with inner beast.
Some of the abilities hve LONG cooldowns, which means, there are the correct times to use them in battle. You need the 2.5 second GCD to determine which ability should be used at a given time. Which ability is determined by the intracacies and requirements of the encounter itself.
I dont' know how many of you actually tried to do the Guildhests, especially the lvl 30 and 35 ones. Some of the encounter designs were AWESOME and it showed that this team has some amazing fights planned for us. People who complain about the battle system havn't really seen it in action in the circumstance it was designed to shine, namely, end game dungeon and raid settings.
Reserve your judgement until then. If you hate the combat to the point you will never get to end game, that's on you. Move onto another game that offers you "better pacing" or "better combat." As for me, I enjoy what FFXIV has done and can't wait to see more.
I'm 47 at the end of this month and whole-heartedly agree with this.