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Trinity vs. Non-Trinity
TyranusPrime
Member UncommonPosts: 306
So, one of the primary topics now seems to be the lack of a trinity (or possible lack of it) for EQNext.. It wasn't very long ago that a great number of people (many of them being tired of WoW's mechanics) were screaming and yelling about being rid of the trinity all together.. This discontent seemed to almost directly spawn the genesis of GW2, which many heralded as amazing for its lack of trinity.. But now, hilariously enough, EQNext's not-too-clear stance on the trinity has brought out throngs of trinity-loving statements all over the place..
So.. If you were able to discuss the trinity with the next generation of game developers, what would you say? Where do you stand on the whole trinity issue.. Are you for it? Against it?
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
Comments
..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)
Guild Wars 2 was originally praised for its lack of trinity because it seemed like a good idea, an innovative idea.
It turns out, we were wrong. Did you play GW2? The group play was awful. The dungeons were awful. There was no reason to focus on being a support player, leaving everyone to just build a max DPS character. In dungeons, it was every man/woman for him/herself just spamming attacks and running around in chaos. No tactics. No group play. No coordination. Sure, there might be a few minor exceptions on very specific dungeons, but in a nutshell, spamming keys and running was all it was.
In light of that, we know all know that the trinity is good for group gameplay. It encourages things like I mentioned earlier; tactics and coordination. The complexity of dungeons in trinity-based games vastly exceeds the level of complexity in a non-trinity game. There is just such better combat and more potential for exciting dungeons.
I play Rift right now and because the macro system is so broken almost any spec can be done in 8 or less anyways you might have some movement things but overall it's mash 8 or less.
That's fairly easy to explain. No trinity sounded freaking awesome. So people were optimistic about it, then when they tried it they realized it didn't work and are now wanting the system back. I myself NEVER liked the idea of no trinity because I love to tank and see no reason I should be forced into being a glass cannon.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
Get over yourself. GW2 is not just a button mash, have you played it lately? The dungeons have changed and therefore tactics for boss fights have changed. Sure there is a few dungeons like CoF that are based around pure DPS builds but there dungeons (eg. Arah explorable) that need co-ordination and team play to complete it else you'd fail hard.
Lack of Trinity is a good thing I believe as it allows players to play the way they want, not be restricted to "tanking" or "dps". Being free of the shackles of the "trinity" has opened up doors, making dungeons not as predictable nowadays.
I think people need to be open to change and not set in there ways that "this is how an MMORPG needs to be mechanically else it sucks".
If you want to play a good trinity game go play WoW or something along those lines.
Was there a genuine backlash against the trinity or was it a marketing gimmick for games like GW2 that unsuccessfully tried to break away from tradition? I lost interest in WoW years ago but not because of the way it handled classes.
I feel like this whole 'sandbox vs. theme park' meme is also a marketing gimmick meant to encourage simplistic thinking. It turns people into reactionary extremists incapable of defining exactly what they want in an MMO without first putting it through a 'right or wrong' filter. I really wish people would resist using these terms because it takes shades of gray completely out of the conversation.
Well you certainly mastered the inductive fallacy. You can't assume because one game's attempt to remove the trinity is imperfect or even bad, that another game's attempt to remove the trinity is automatically bad.
Here's a thought, how about instead of removing it we simply improve upon it? New roles, new ways to achieve the existing ones and new situations in which they become necessary. Allow me to elaborate. Take the rogue for example, what is the Rogues role? DPS. How does this give the class any real identity? There are ten million other dpsers already. Sure you do it in a different way but the end result is the same, health is removed from the enemy. How about we create a new role for the Rogue, one only the rogue can do. Then design the game around it so that the rogue is always needed in every dungeon/raid/whatever.
Here's an example: When entering a dungeon, the dungeon is randomly generated like Diablo 2. Everything except the near area is black, and you can't tell how many of what is where, or where to go. Except for the Rogue, whose class role is to be the scout. The rogue has the ability to stealth through areas of the map see where everything is and then create a map of it. He can also get through traps and pick chests meaning if you want any loot you need the rogue. DPS is still there, but the class truly shines by completing this Scout role.
Here's another example, The tank doesn't just have to be someone who takes lots of damage. You could have an illusionist class who simply redirects damage by making mobs attack eachother, the trade-off being that the damage they do to each other is not very high. You could create a berserker, who can tank by going into temporary rages where all damage is redirected into attack and actually makes him or her more powerful as it's done. The trade off being that it's a temporary state with a very long cool down. This could make the berserker a situational tank used for situations where more dps is needed than tanking.
Also you can add loads of non-combat roles that need to be fill, npc's who may speak another language or are distrusting of you will need to be talked to in order to learn about the dungeon and what to do. Ancient artifacts and wall writing will need to be figured out, Items may need to be rushed from one area to another very quickly etc.
All in all my Point is if people would stop trying to reinvent the wheel and worry more about putting a tire on it we would have much better games by now.
iv never played gw2, but doesn't it have that if a mage lays fire on the ground and a ranger shoots arrows threw it, they light on fire?
if there is absolutely no trinity, and not even a variation or hybrid of it, like skills that are all def or all support that you can equip to make a sorta tank or sorta healer type. then EQN better have alot of crossover skills that will react to each other.
no trinity doesn't sound like very fun tatics, you run this way i run that way, when i have argo you hit him and ill run away heal and then we repeat. then wouldn't there be a point where the boss just spins around in circles cause everyone is the same amount of danger or how ever the AI will work.
Absolutely. Giving everyone in a group the tools to Control mobs, mitigate damage, heal a little bit and still do damage brings a much more dynamic and interactive group scenario, why would you need any one person in the group to fill one specific task. The trinity is highly restrictive and very boring where non trinity group play is more about coordination a tactics. In my opinion Teamwork exists more in a non trinity system.
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Trinity is the best system so far still for me. I think it also slows gameplay down a bit so you can add strategy.
When I play non-trinity games you are constantly rushing mobs and it becomes a free for all faceroll game.
A group in a non-trinity game doesn't feel like a group, it feels like button mashing solo game, your group members might not even be there.
Also no one talks in non-trinity games, everyone is too busy facerolling mobs.
Seems I've already replied to at least one or two Trinity posts but whatever...
In a nutshell, just because GW2's non-trinity system is not liked, loved, failed or whatever - it is not Everquest Next's system. Some of us are automatically lumping EQN into a clone of GW2 and that may end up being the case... but right now we just don't know. Are Wow and EQ alike? Is threat handled the same way? Well they are both Trinity games... see what I did there?
If their AI system is truly emergent we may be in for a real gem of a game. For all we know, they may building a system of threat and retreat none of us have imagined. Aggro, movement, buffs/debuff, crowd control and of course healing can still be an integral part of the encounter.
Open your mind a bit to change.. not all change is bad, some is quite good. EQ defined many MMO standars... perhaps EQN can as well.
SOE May not be making EQN for you!
well if you look at it from that point, but what if I want my trinity of dps, tank, and healers then im being restricted from that in guildwars2. Main thing with the lack of trinity in gw2 is the difficulty isn't their that games easy as shit, and its just a farm fest, theirs no progression its just different skins. If they ramped up the difficulty maybe they can make the non-trinity system seem better.
And for a refrence i played guildwars 1 and i find it much better then guildwars 2. It didn't have the traditional trinity. Although they had classes that where more towards dps/tank/heals. For instance i tanked on my elementalist with certain builds, because i had a sub class to take abilites from them plus my own set form my main class. Also had smart Ai in that game so the dps/healer/bonder stayed in the back and we'd nuke them down. Guild wars 1 was pretty much a farm fest as well, but it still had that difficulty their, fully customazlible builds so things didn't get rusty. Guild wars 2 is very limited in builds, and everything is retarded easy =/.
Why can't we have both in one game. For example, lets take the healer. Allow player A to choose the "trinity" healer and put all their experience into just becoming the best healer in the game. But also allow player B to be a multiclass healer who spends x points in healer and y points in another class. This way everyone is happy.
Personally, i would go for the multiclass healer/other just because I am not the raid healing type. I prefer to just free play with various mixed groups as a PLAYER not as a TRINITY HEALER.
Nanulak
Are you serious? You think GW2 style of "no trinity" combat is more dynamic? I still play GW2 for shits and giggles and it is not dynamic at all.. I mash the same buttons for EVERY SINGLE encounter.. There is no strategy in GW2.. It is nothing more then people soft grouping and ZERG'ing anything that rewards Karma.. That has both pro's and con's.. Parts of it a approve of, while I feel in general they homogenized combat to simple DPS.. I can't charm or mez a DAMN thing in GW2.. I can't KITE anything reliably in GW2.. The only pet worth a darn is the Rangers.. EQ original had much more dynamics then any game I've played since.. WoW was a close second before they nerfed it to high heaven as well..
Exactly. This is what all combat without some sort of aggro management system will become. Its the whole reason the "trinity" has existed since long before MMOs. Without tanks that block, knock down or somehow aggro the mobs, all the other classes lose their worth and viability. No more healers, no more debuffers or other support classes. None of that stuff works, the whole traditional role system collapses and everyone because a solo dps class of one form or another. The aggro system is one of the most fun meta games in a good MMO. Most people just have no idea what they're talking about because they never played classic EQ where tanks had to actually work hard to keep aggro weapons and clickies on them for aggro to keep shamans from dying when they slowed, healers from dying when they healed, and casters from dying every time they nuke.
Its just bad, theres no debating it.
GW2 has a trinity.
It is dps, support, control.
That is why the PvE favours dps over everything, and it is a chaotic mess.
The PvP is awesomesauce though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmImV7a3lzM
Anet always preferred PvP since GW1 and it shows. XD
A trinity system is completely independent of how fast paced combat is. TERA has a trinity system and it is much faster paced than WoW.
How many non-trinity games have you played?
the problem is theyve replaced the trinity with a unity (if you get what i mean).
3 roles has now gone down to one tank/healer/dps -> dps.
I dont think the trinity needs to be used but the system they use to replace it has to have some sort of dependance on other characters otherwise there wont be any real teamwork.
it changes teamwork to everyone is doing dps on the same target and tries to survive.
i don't understand the ranting... the ppl who are complaining about the lack of trinity must not have watched the full char panel video.. they showed some of the alternatives to traditional tank/healer/dps.. in a fantasy universe warriors are not the only chars that can tank.. or cc. priests/mages aren't the only ones who can heal. there is nothing wrong with breaking the traditional mold and making it something more. mages use the environment to create shields... that has a lot of potential.. why ignore that fact? i'm sure they have even more planned...
I for one read lots of fantasy books.. and I've never seen a single situation.. where a tank stands in front of a mob.. doesn't move.. and maintains its attention until the battle is over.. .it doesn't happen. they want to get everyone involved in the combat... nothing is wrong with that... as long as the char abilities support and sustain each other in group play there isn't a problem.
I'd love to see a game someday where a group of mages could go into a dungeon and using only spells and tactical teamwork do just as well as a trinity group. Unfortunately, MMO's have not reached the complexity yet to do this. That's why I'm so excited about the destructible environment as it opens up even more crowd control options so that tanks are unnecessary. I'd love it just as much if a group of tanks could do a dungeon too. I'm not against trinity roles as much as I am the fact that you always need to have tank, DPS, healer to be effective in group PvE. The more tactical options the better the way I see it. Football or any other sport would be dull if every team used the exact same strategy because it is the only one that was effective.
Just because ArenaNet fucked up without a trinity does not mean non-trinity is bad.
I liked the GW1 "trinity".
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