Originally posted by Eadric It was close for me, but I went with 'Emergent AI' as the one I'm most excited about. That said, 'Permanent Change' is a close, close second.
Same here. Voted Emergent AI, as I'm curious to see what, if any different mob AIs appear. Right now, I'm still thinking Permanent Change will be a slowly-revealing Expansion. Both ideas are very interesting, but as always, it will depend on the implementation.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Emergent AI is an about freakin time feature that should have been implimented years ago yet technology has limitations...and people still persist wanting what they want and wonder why characters look cartoony
If you want awesome graphics go play a different mmorpg with highly detailed characters. I personally want awesome game mechanics because its the only thing that truly matters in the long run.
Then again I was born in the 60s and played arcade games as well as games on the first consoles and personal computers and game mechanics was always a priority over graphics.
Everquest Next Debut was very impressive and yet there are so many other features we will have to wait and see in the coming days. I seriously cannot fathom how someone can start a negative thread about what they revealed during the unveiling of Everquest Next. Guessing our generation has dealt with charge much moreso and we've witnessed technology progress rather rapidly as we don't take much for granted.
Don't fret so much about Everquest Next. Virtual Reality is on its way and oddly enough it seems to go hand in hand with ourselves questioning our own reality....isn't that interesting O.o
Originally posted by Kuppa Wow, I'm impressed the AI is winning. Goes to show that people will always love what they cant see. Multiclassing is self explanatory and we know what it will be. We saw at least a tech demo of destruction. Permanent changes are pretty underwhelming(seen it before). But the AI, that is purely word of mouth. What everyone wants, dreams until reality sets in.
Take a few minutes and look up Storybricks. It's not as obscure as you may think.
*Minecraft, Vindictus, probably others I never played...
Emergent AI (a life of consequence)
*A bunch of scripts, scripted to work at random or to activate on some certain trigger, are still scripts, not AI
Permanent Change (rallying calls)
*Been done in some way shape or form, in devel with games that'll be out before EQN, etc. Another dead horse that isn't 'innovative'
Edited 'cause copy/pasting polls sucks =P
The OP asked what you were excited about. Not which features you felt were already done in other games. Your post was absolutely pointless.
I agree. It wasn't only pointless but even silly wrong.
Voxel:
Minecraft has huge blocks, and Vindictus only has some small, destroyable objects. Being able to destroy or create everything is obviously something almost completely different.
AI:
A pure arbitrary definition of AI which only would attribute "AI" to a machine with a real self-consciousness. Since science is questioning even the theoretical possibility of such a thing, it's an idiotic rhetoric. Contrary to that non-sense, what SOE is calling "Emergent AI" is actually complying with scientific terms of "AI".
Permanent Change:
Another silly "argument": "Will be in games out before EQN" -> "dead horse"
Fact is, that momentary commercial MMORPGs rely on a static world which can't be changed by players, or only on very rare occasions. To build a game entirely on such a concept so that in the end the players are shaping the world more than the designers do, is very innovative for a commercial AAA project.
[mod edit]
Others just shoot the zombies which are chasing us. Whereas I try to talk to them.
If the brainless realized that it is dead, maybe, just maybe, it would lay itself down to rest...
*Minecraft, Vindictus, probably others I never played...
Emergent AI (a life of consequence)
*A bunch of scripts, scripted to work at random or to activate on some certain trigger, are still scripts, not AI
Permanent Change (rallying calls)
*Been done in some way shape or form, in devel with games that'll be out before EQN, etc. Another dead horse that isn't 'innovative'
Edited 'cause copy/pasting polls sucks =P
So in order to please you, the Devs need to create true AI. Wow...lol
^exactly. i expect my game developers to create game changers not course of human history changers.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Destructability sounds awesome. Wouldn't it be amazing if you had a skill that let you dig a hole and law grass over it, and then kite an enemy boss over to the hole and they fall down it and you can rain death from above while they can't do anything.
The only more amazing thing would be is if the AI is smart enough to figure out a way to turn it against you, like destroying the walls around the hole so you fall in with them, but I doubt we will get anything that complex.
I voted for Emergent AI, it can really make or break EQN.
Destructible environments is fun and all, but I can take it or leave it.
Multi-classing also won't make or break the game, it's just a nice thing to have.
Rallying calls are okay, but they're basically "choose your own adventure" mini expansions. Which I'm almost certain will be less than what people are expecting. Think the recent elections in GW2. Global event, people choose, and you get a result based on the votes. I really can't imagine them churning out completely game altering changes via rallying calls, they'll be small and bite sized.
All 4 of them are weak and none of them innovative..
Destructibility is only eye candy and temporary.. As I recall it was mentioned that the world heals itself in 5 minutes.. Then even if you bust open a wall or ground and find a new area.. that wall or group seals back up in 5 minutes.. /boggled It's just a gimick..
Mult-Classing? That has yet to be shown that it's even versatile.. Having 8 so-called classes that cause the same damage but with different spell effects is NOT 8 classes.. It's 1 class with 8 looks..
Rally Calls? ARE they serious.. This is NOT new, it's been done before, by BLIZZARD.. and I'm sure others as well.. YOU have NO choices or options with rally calls.. These are nothing more then pre-designed content patches.. The Sunwell patch was a "Rally Call".. Players actions with dailies and dungeons had an effect on how fast the Sunwell area completed.. I remember the stages of Sunwell quite well.. Rally Calls are NO different.. You can't STOP a rally call, or change it. It will complete eventually..
Emergent AI.. Call it what you will.. Code is Code.. some are simple, some are complex.. When it comes to mobs, they only respond to code and yes/no checks.. There are multiple formulas a dev can make up, and that mob will always do what it is told, no more, no less.. This is NOT the robot from the movie "The Incredibles" that learns as it fights.. That is FICTION.. Now you can design a complete multi step code that gives the appearance of intelligence, but it isn't.. EQ's AI in my opinion was more dynamic then modern day MMO's such as WoW, Rift and GW2..
All 4 of them are weak and none of them innovative..
Destructibility is only eye candy and temporary.. As I recall it was mentioned that the world heals itself in 5 minutes.. Then even if you bust open a wall or ground and find a new area.. that wall or group seals back up in 5 minutes.. /boggled It's just a gimick..
Mult-Classing? That has yet to be shown that it's even versatile.. Having 8 so-called classes that cause the same damage but with different spell effects is NOT 8 classes.. It's 1 class with 8 looks..
Rally Calls? ARE they serious.. This is NOT new, it's been done before, by BLIZZARD.. and I'm sure others as well.. YOU have NO choices or options with rally calls.. These are nothing more then pre-designed content patches.. The Sunwell patch was a "Rally Call".. Players actions with dailies and dungeons had an effect on how fast the Sunwell area completed.. I remember the stages of Sunwell quite well.. Rally Calls are NO different.. You can't STOP a rally call, or change it. It will complete eventually..
Emergent AI.. Call it what you will.. Code is Code.. some are simple, some are complex.. When it comes to mobs, they only respond to code and yes/no checks.. There are multiple formulas a dev can make up, and that mob will always do what it is told, no more, no less.. This is NOT the robot from the movie "The Incredibles" that learns as it fights.. That is FICTION.. Now you can design a complete multi step code that gives the appearance of intelligence, but it isn't.. EQ's AI in my opinion was more dynamic then modern day MMO's such as WoW, Rift and GW2..
1. What they said about how destructibility works was more along the line of: It depends. If the world never healed and was completely destructible then in short order there would be nowhere to play but a flat canvas strewn with rubble. Some things heal quickly if they are needed as part of a quest line. Some things heal over time (the amount of time was not stated) like general terrain. Some things require player interaction to rebuild like structures and cities. And some things never rebuild like uncovered mine entrances. They also said that some things can't be destroyed by players, like cities and player housing.
2. Multi-Classing. We have so far only been given the slightest taste what we do know is that there will be at least 160 character skill to choose from. Balance was not discussed.
3. Rally calls are not patches where you log in one day and the city you were in is suddenly part of the other side. Again what they said and alluded to is that Rally Calls will be huge public quests/raids where player action or inaction will most definitely play a part.
4. Call it AI call it code. If it is intelligently programmed then it most certainly can feel like the game is learning. Go read about Storybricks to find out more about this one. As far as the mob yes he can only respond based on his code. Is it really hard to believe that a program can make decisions based on weighted input. That Warrior wiped out the entire keep of Orcs. Maybe the Orcs on the road will flee instead of fighting the Warrior. Certainly with the speed of servers today the mob can certainly make 10 decisions (sorry make that 10,000 decisions) before you reach it.
Originally posted by Kuppa Wow, I'm impressed the AI is winning. Goes to show that people will always love what they cant see. Multiclassing is self explanatory and we know what it will be. We saw at least a tech demo of destruction. Permanent changes are pretty underwhelming(seen it before). But the AI, that is purely word of mouth. What everyone wants, dreams until reality sets in.
Take a few minutes and look up Storybricks. It's not as obscure as you may think.
It is nowhere near what they are expecting either. BTW story bricks is pretty cool, but we will probably see how it runs out of things quickly. Only so many scenarios we can play just shuffled around.
The emergent AI is the one thing we haven't seen before in ANY genre.
The work and ideas the programmers need to put into the system to make the world feel alive without generating millions of bugs is... let's just say they deserve a gold star for even trying this.
1. What they said about how destructibility works was more along the line of: It depends. True, it does depend.. If the world never healed and was completely destructible then in short order there would be nowhere to play but a flat canvas strewn with rubble. Some things heal quickly if they are needed as part of a quest line. Some things heal over time (the amount of time was not stated) like general terrain. Some things require player interaction to rebuild like structures and cities. And some things never rebuild like uncovered mine entrances. They also said that some things can't be destroyed by players, like cities and player housing. What I heard was, "we can not talk about that right now".. especially things made my players.. They do NOT and WILL NOT, allow griefing of players.. It's unknown what is actually breakable or not..
2. Multi-Classing. We have so far only been given the slightest taste what we do know is that there will be at least 160 character skill to choose from. Balance was not discussed. No, but they did give an example.. You can swap out one movement skill for another.. Does it really matter if its done using a leap, or a mage blink.. It's the same result going from point A to point B.. only the graphic is dfferent.. Same with spells..
3. Rally calls are not patches where you log in one day and the city you were in is suddenly part of the other side. Again what they said and alluded to is that Rally Calls will be huge public quests/raids where player action or inaction will most definitely play a part. They are indeed patches.. Are you not familiar with the Sunwell public quest in WoW.. Infact much of the Lich King era was public quest and phasing.. From start to finish..
4. Call it AI call it code. If it is intelligently programmed then it most certainly can feel like the game is learning. Go read about Storybricks to find out more about this one. As far as the mob yes he can only respond based on his code. Is it really hard to believe that a program can make decisions based on weighted input. That Warrior wiped out the entire keep of Orcs. Maybe the Orcs on the road will flee instead of fighting the Warrior. Certainly with the speed of servers today the mob can certainly make 10 decisions (sorry make that 10,000 decisions) before you reach it. This is all code on two levels.. 1) how does immediate agro work in a combat situation. 2) FACTIONS.. EQ1 was all about factions.. almost everything you did either pissed someone off, or gained.. and BOTH.. All Emergent AI is a combination of bringing the two together in a code to tell the mob who to attack and when.. It's all about numbers..
The emergent AI is the one thing we haven't seen before in ANY genre.
The work and ideas the programmers need to put into the system to make the world feel alive without generating millions of bugs is... let's just say they deserve a gold star for even trying this.
True, but nothing new.. It simply is just an agro code that also included "faction" status based on past actions.. So a warrior with NO history has agro of zero, where as a warrior called the ORC SLAYER, has a history and his faction status is -1000.. All the devs are doing is telling the code (aka mob) attack person with lowest score.. Now as the fight goes along, those numbers will change depending on player actions, and the agro may or may not switch..
The emergent AI I think has the greatest potential to truly change how mmos work. It's not even just about combat either. That example of spawning orcs into the world and letting find their way according to their likes and dislikes, this could be a game changer.
Originally posted by donpopuki The emergent AI I think has the greatest potential to truly change how mmos work. It's not even just about combat either. That example of spawning orcs into the world and letting find their way according to their likes and dislikes, this could be a game changer.
So.. With the new uber AI.. let me ask you.. Assuming Pet classes are in the game.... Does this mean that super mobs will always ignore the pet and kill the master? Think about it for a second
the players affecting the game world is what has me going back to eve time and time again to the point i've pretty mch been steadily playing since 2007.
so permanent change is a big, big seller for me.
runner up would certainly be the Voxel based world.
multiclassing is cool, but i've done it in FF11 before with their sub {job}
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
All 4 of them are weak and none of them innovative..
Destructibility is only eye candy and temporary.. As I recall it was mentioned that the world heals itself in 5 minutes.. Then even if you bust open a wall or ground and find a new area.. that wall or group seals back up in 5 minutes.. /boggled It's just a gimick..
Mult-Classing? That has yet to be shown that it's even versatile.. Having 8 so-called classes that cause the same damage but with different spell effects is NOT 8 classes.. It's 1 class with 8 looks..
Rally Calls? ARE they serious.. This is NOT new, it's been done before, by BLIZZARD.. and I'm sure others as well.. YOU have NO choices or options with rally calls.. These are nothing more then pre-designed content patches.. The Sunwell patch was a "Rally Call".. Players actions with dailies and dungeons had an effect on how fast the Sunwell area completed.. I remember the stages of Sunwell quite well.. Rally Calls are NO different.. You can't STOP a rally call, or change it. It will complete eventually..
Emergent AI.. Call it what you will.. Code is Code.. some are simple, some are complex.. When it comes to mobs, they only respond to code and yes/no checks.. There are multiple formulas a dev can make up, and that mob will always do what it is told, no more, no less.. This is NOT the robot from the movie "The Incredibles" that learns as it fights.. That is FICTION.. Now you can design a complete multi step code that gives the appearance of intelligence, but it isn't.. EQ's AI in my opinion was more dynamic then modern day MMO's such as WoW, Rift and GW2..
Dang you're hard to please :S
I would have thought 4 innovative concepts packaged together in one game is enough...
I do hope rally cry was just a large scale example but I miss the type of change that a player could make in games like Star Wars pre NGE and UO...neither of those games let you move mountains (or dig caves) but you could leave your mark on the world all the same.
Originally posted by donpopuki The emergent AI I think has the greatest potential to truly change how mmos work. It's not even just about combat either. That example of spawning orcs into the world and letting find their way according to their likes and dislikes, this could be a game changer.
So.. With the new uber AI.. let me ask you.. Assuming Pet classes are in the game.... Does this mean that super mobs will always ignore the pet and kill the master? Think about it for a second
Depends on how the AI is programmed. Besides there will be multiclasing so if your pet tactics aren't working perhaps you should switch out your abilities for that particular fight.
If the emergent AI system works like it's supposed to work it's going to revolutionize and change the genre in much the same way the original did. This single aspect would of been enough to get me onboard with the program but adding on the others is extremely exciting. I like all 4 pillars and believe all 4 are great but the AI narrows out the destructibility/constructability by just a hair.
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Comments
Same here. Voted Emergent AI, as I'm curious to see what, if any different mob AIs appear. Right now, I'm still thinking Permanent Change will be a slowly-revealing Expansion. Both ideas are very interesting, but as always, it will depend on the implementation.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Emergent AI is an about freakin time feature that should have been implimented years ago yet technology has limitations...and people still persist wanting what they want and wonder why characters look cartoony
If you want awesome graphics go play a different mmorpg with highly detailed characters. I personally want awesome game mechanics because its the only thing that truly matters in the long run.
Then again I was born in the 60s and played arcade games as well as games on the first consoles and personal computers and game mechanics was always a priority over graphics.
Everquest Next Debut was very impressive and yet there are so many other features we will have to wait and see in the coming days. I seriously cannot fathom how someone can start a negative thread about what they revealed during the unveiling of Everquest Next. Guessing our generation has dealt with charge much moreso and we've witnessed technology progress rather rapidly as we don't take much for granted.
Don't fret so much about Everquest Next. Virtual Reality is on its way and oddly enough it seems to go hand in hand with ourselves questioning our own reality....isn't that interesting O.o
Go figure
The OP asked what you were excited about. Not which features you felt were already done in other games. Your post was absolutely pointless.
Always has to be one doesn't there... I didn't realize this post was about innovation did you not read the title of the thread?
So are posts by blind fanatic fanboys who defend their game at every turn.
Take a few minutes and look up Storybricks. It's not as obscure as you may think.
I agree. It wasn't only pointless but even silly wrong.
Voxel:
Minecraft has huge blocks, and Vindictus only has some small, destroyable objects. Being able to destroy or create everything is obviously something almost completely different.
AI:
A pure arbitrary definition of AI which only would attribute "AI" to a machine with a real self-consciousness. Since science is questioning even the theoretical possibility of such a thing, it's an idiotic rhetoric. Contrary to that non-sense, what SOE is calling "Emergent AI" is actually complying with scientific terms of "AI".
Permanent Change:
Another silly "argument": "Will be in games out before EQN" -> "dead horse"
Fact is, that momentary commercial MMORPGs rely on a static world which can't be changed by players, or only on very rare occasions. To build a game entirely on such a concept so that in the end the players are shaping the world more than the designers do, is very innovative for a commercial AAA project.
[mod edit]
Others just shoot the zombies which are chasing us. Whereas I try to talk to them.
If the brainless realized that it is dead, maybe, just maybe, it would lay itself down to rest...
^exactly. i expect my game developers to create game changers not course of human history changers.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Destructability sounds awesome. Wouldn't it be amazing if you had a skill that let you dig a hole and law grass over it, and then kite an enemy boss over to the hole and they fall down it and you can rain death from above while they can't do anything.
The only more amazing thing would be is if the AI is smart enough to figure out a way to turn it against you, like destroying the walls around the hole so you fall in with them, but I doubt we will get anything that complex.
Since when is Tuesday a direction?
I voted for Emergent AI, it can really make or break EQN.
Destructible environments is fun and all, but I can take it or leave it.
Multi-classing also won't make or break the game, it's just a nice thing to have.
Rallying calls are okay, but they're basically "choose your own adventure" mini expansions. Which I'm almost certain will be less than what people are expecting. Think the recent elections in GW2. Global event, people choose, and you get a result based on the votes. I really can't imagine them churning out completely game altering changes via rallying calls, they'll be small and bite sized.
Where is the "none of the above" option? lol
All 4 of them are weak and none of them innovative..
1. What they said about how destructibility works was more along the line of: It depends. If the world never healed and was completely destructible then in short order there would be nowhere to play but a flat canvas strewn with rubble. Some things heal quickly if they are needed as part of a quest line. Some things heal over time (the amount of time was not stated) like general terrain. Some things require player interaction to rebuild like structures and cities. And some things never rebuild like uncovered mine entrances. They also said that some things can't be destroyed by players, like cities and player housing.
2. Multi-Classing. We have so far only been given the slightest taste what we do know is that there will be at least 160 character skill to choose from. Balance was not discussed.
3. Rally calls are not patches where you log in one day and the city you were in is suddenly part of the other side. Again what they said and alluded to is that Rally Calls will be huge public quests/raids where player action or inaction will most definitely play a part.
4. Call it AI call it code. If it is intelligently programmed then it most certainly can feel like the game is learning. Go read about Storybricks to find out more about this one. As far as the mob yes he can only respond based on his code. Is it really hard to believe that a program can make decisions based on weighted input. That Warrior wiped out the entire keep of Orcs. Maybe the Orcs on the road will flee instead of fighting the Warrior. Certainly with the speed of servers today the mob can certainly make 10 decisions (sorry make that 10,000 decisions) before you reach it.
It is nowhere near what they are expecting either. BTW story bricks is pretty cool, but we will probably see how it runs out of things quickly. Only so many scenarios we can play just shuffled around.
The emergent AI is the one thing we haven't seen before in ANY genre.
The work and ideas the programmers need to put into the system to make the world feel alive without generating millions of bugs is... let's just say they deserve a gold star for even trying this.
True, but nothing new.. It simply is just an agro code that also included "faction" status based on past actions.. So a warrior with NO history has agro of zero, where as a warrior called the ORC SLAYER, has a history and his faction status is -1000.. All the devs are doing is telling the code (aka mob) attack person with lowest score.. Now as the fight goes along, those numbers will change depending on player actions, and the agro may or may not switch..
Emergent AI.
Things that I couldn't possibly be less interested in: destructibility. What a gimmick.
So.. With the new uber AI.. let me ask you.. Assuming Pet classes are in the game.... Does this mean that super mobs will always ignore the pet and kill the master? Think about it for a second
the players affecting the game world is what has me going back to eve time and time again to the point i've pretty mch been steadily playing since 2007.
so permanent change is a big, big seller for me.
runner up would certainly be the Voxel based world.
multiclassing is cool, but i've done it in FF11 before with their sub {job}
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Dang you're hard to please :S
I would have thought 4 innovative concepts packaged together in one game is enough...
Permanent Change,
I do hope rally cry was just a large scale example but I miss the type of change that a player could make in games like Star Wars pre NGE and UO...neither of those games let you move mountains (or dig caves) but you could leave your mark on the world all the same.
Depends on how the AI is programmed. Besides there will be multiclasing so if your pet tactics aren't working perhaps you should switch out your abilities for that particular fight.
My vote was emergent AI by the way. I imagine it will be super fun to interact with this living, breathing world that responds and reacts to YOU.
NPCs with minds of their own and that form opinions about you? Your actions have consequences? Who wouldn't want all that.
Best statement yet by Georgeson-- "What we do is we create Orcs and then we just release them into the world."
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Me: Double Facepalm.