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Fewer Skills, Less Actionbars - Action Combat? Is this the new trend?

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  • Agnostic42Agnostic42 Member UncommonPosts: 405
    Originally posted by Talint
    Originally posted by agnostic4eve
    "It's a game, you play it, if you need a fucking macro or rotation to think for you, go play Life, or Monopoly, because seriously, thinking is hard, right?"

    I am sorry, but I am going to disagree with this.  There is going to ALWAYS be a way to output the greatest amount of damage.  This is done via a rotation.  Some rotations are better than others, and there will always be a 'best' rotation - that is how MMos are.  So please don't say that "if you need a rotation to play, go play something else because thinking is hard" - that is very ignorant.

    That is not the way games are, that is the way the modern day MMO's have become. Without a ton of hotbars, the need for rotations becomes less important, almost to the point of nil. It's not ignorant, that's newer MMO players thinking that DPS meters are the one and only definition of skill.

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada Member UncommonPosts: 1,282

    DAOC 2001 had 8 Button combat...more was only possible with Bar-Switching and you wont do that in the laggy environment that time.
    20, 30, 40 Button combat is bullshit, all you do is staring on timers etc and click the bar instead of playing a game.
    Some preplanning required now - this is only good!

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  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Originally posted by evilastro
    I love how people think that more skills makes it more strategic and complex. If its so engaging, why are these games the most multi-boxed / botted? Oh that's right, because it isn't complex or engaging at all. You can download programs that can play EQ, EQ2 and WoW for you, that's how simple the multi-hotbar 30+ skill systems are.

    Vindictus = action combat, full of bots

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270
    Correct, you can bot anything, but GW2 made it easy by having non-situational skills and areas where dodging and movement were not required. Those ranger bots were not doing Orr, dungeons or fractals but you can most certainly multibox EQ / EQ2 / WoW dungeons and raids. GW1 is a better example of strategic combat with limited skills than GW2.
  • Agnostic42Agnostic42 Member UncommonPosts: 405
    Originally posted by Thorqemada

    DAOC 2001 had 8 Button combat...more was only possible with Bar-Switching and you wont do that in the laggy environment that time.
    20, 30, 40 Button combat is bullshit, all you do is staring on timers etc and click the bar instead of playing a game.
    Some preplanning required now - this is only good!

    Cheers! Whack-a-mole is not fun. Strategy and quick thinking are fun. Same old rotation and macro's are dry and boring. Bring on the action combat.

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270
    Having a macro is no different to putting the skills in order on a hotbar based on priority. Pressing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc doesn't make the game any more skilful or engaging than pre planning your rotation in a macro and pressing 1 repeatedly. You are only fooling yourself if you think more buttons means deeper and more meaningful combat.
  • TalintTalint Member UncommonPosts: 168
    Originally posted by agnostic4eve
    Originally posted by Talint
    Originally posted by agnostic4eve
    "It's a game, you play it, if you need a fucking macro or rotation to think for you, go play Life, or Monopoly, because seriously, thinking is hard, right?"

    I am sorry, but I am going to disagree with this.  There is going to ALWAYS be a way to output the greatest amount of damage.  This is done via a rotation.  Some rotations are better than others, and there will always be a 'best' rotation - that is how MMos are.  So please don't say that "if you need a rotation to play, go play something else because thinking is hard" - that is very ignorant.

    That is not the way games are, that is the way the modern day MMO's have become. Without a ton of hotbars, the need for rotations becomes less important, almost to the point of nil. It's not ignorant, that's newer MMO players thinking that DPS meters are the one and only definition of skill.

    See this is even more funny to me because YOU'RE the one not thinking.  If you limit someone to 5 skills, there will always be five skills that are the best.  Therefore you will only be using those 5 skills out of all the skills you may have.

    And while I do agree that damage meters have ruined the MMO genre, they are a way of making people who love to theorycraft - like myself - better.

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  • WolfenprideWolfenpride Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 3,988

    Seems to be.

    Unfortunately most MMO's that goes this route do a crappy job of implementing mob AI that gives any kind of challenge. Guild Wars 2 was a complete failure in this regard to me personally, the AI was extremely stupid and predictable, so to simulate challenge they just made champion/boss monsters capable of one-two shotting players.

    SoE claims they can do better, but I won't believe it until I see it. Ideally I would see the AI/mob abilities improved up to something like the Monster Hunter series. I feel Tera's BAM's and Vindictus's bosses did a acceptable job at this.

    Honestly though I feel they are already going the wrong direction with this. During the gameplay segment AE hit zones are apparently marked with red circles several seconds before they go off. That removes a very large part of the appeal of action combat if you ask me.

     

    edit: The limited actionbars doesn't bother me. Pack the right tool for the job, I like the potential for it to make preparation actually matter. There should of course, be a large variety of skills you have to choose from though..

  • kilunkilun Member UncommonPosts: 829
    Originally posted by evilastro
    If you can dumb down those 30 abilities into one damage / threat / heal priority supermacro, what's the point? Have yet to play a hotbar game that I haven't been able to supermacro. I'd rather have 8 meaningful and strategic skills like in EQN or GW1, than 30+ skills that get shoved into one button like on EQ, EQ2, WoW, Rift etc.

    Exactly.  The day I made a macro on Rift, I quit 3 days later.  It became boring as hell.  Lets just hit 2 buttons in a dungeon.  I rather enjoy games that have a limited skill set.  5-8 or so is great.  Gives good skills.  I personally love TSWs passive set as well.  Lets you mix and match.  Sure for instances there are specific things you add, but once your in the meat of the game outside you have slews of different setups depending on the monster type.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183

    How exactly does more skills make a game's content harder? How does less abilities on the ready make a game's content easier?

    This has nothing to do with the difficulty of the content.

    And yes Op this is the new trend.

    I"m with those who prefer tab targeting & action bars in MMO's over twicth play in them, I have no delusion that my preference is "harderz" or less "facerollz" though.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Agnostic42Agnostic42 Member UncommonPosts: 405
    Originally posted by Talint
    Originally posted by agnostic4eve
    Originally posted by Talint
    Originally posted by agnostic4eve
    "It's a game, you play it, if you need a fucking macro or rotation to think for you, go play Life, or Monopoly, because seriously, thinking is hard, right?"

    I am sorry, but I am going to disagree with this.  There is going to ALWAYS be a way to output the greatest amount of damage.  This is done via a rotation.  Some rotations are better than others, and there will always be a 'best' rotation - that is how MMos are.  So please don't say that "if you need a rotation to play, go play something else because thinking is hard" - that is very ignorant.

    That is not the way games are, that is the way the modern day MMO's have become. Without a ton of hotbars, the need for rotations becomes less important, almost to the point of nil. It's not ignorant, that's newer MMO players thinking that DPS meters are the one and only definition of skill.

    See this is even more funny to me because YOU'RE the one not thinking.  If you limit someone to 5 skills, there will always be five skills that are the best.  Therefore you will only be using those 5 skills out of all the skills you may have.

    And while I do agree that damage meters have ruined the MMO genre, they are a way of making people who love to theorycraft - like myself - better.

    SOE is claiming that building a character will be challenging. What weapon you use will be important to how you want to play, i.e. the first 4 buttons. What character class(es) you use abilities from will determine the last 4 buttons you use. The whole idea is the implore strategy and make character building something the players wants to explore. Not everyone will have the same abilities to choose from based on how they act/react which determines which classes they can even have or quest. Google templates will take less importance because you cannot look up how someone received the class.

     

    There is a whole "Big picture" that you are missing. Sure only looking at one slide of the movie paints an awkward picture, but run them all together and you have a complete package. I hope SOE delivers on the whole package, and the glass is half full mentality I approach things with means that with this game being FTP, I will lose out on nothing while I play test to see if they did in fact reach that milestone.

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    lol
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by agnostic4eve
    Originally posted by Talint
    Originally posted by agnostic4eve
    Originally posted by Talint
    Originally posted by agnostic4eve
    "It's a game, you play it, if you need a fucking macro or rotation to think for you, go play Life, or Monopoly, because seriously, thinking is hard, right?"

    I am sorry, but I am going to disagree with this.  There is going to ALWAYS be a way to output the greatest amount of damage.  This is done via a rotation.  Some rotations are better than others, and there will always be a 'best' rotation - that is how MMos are.  So please don't say that "if you need a rotation to play, go play something else because thinking is hard" - that is very ignorant.

    That is not the way games are, that is the way the modern day MMO's have become. Without a ton of hotbars, the need for rotations becomes less important, almost to the point of nil. It's not ignorant, that's newer MMO players thinking that DPS meters are the one and only definition of skill.

    See this is even more funny to me because YOU'RE the one not thinking.  If you limit someone to 5 skills, there will always be five skills that are the best.  Therefore you will only be using those 5 skills out of all the skills you may have.

    And while I do agree that damage meters have ruined the MMO genre, they are a way of making people who love to theorycraft - like myself - better.

    SOE is claiming that building a character will be challenging. What weapon you use will be important to how you want to play, i.e. the first 4 buttons. What character class(es) you use abilities from will determine the last 4 buttons you use. The whole idea is the implore strategy and make character building something the players wants to explore. Not everyone will have the same abilities to choose from based on how they act/react which determines which classes they can even have or quest. Google templates will take less importance because you cannot look up how someone received the class.

     

    There is a whole "Big picture" that you are missing. Sure only looking at one slide of the movie paints an awkward picture, but run them all together and you have a complete package. I hope SOE delivers on the whole package, and the glass is half full mentality I approach things with means that with this game being FTP, I will lose out on nothing while I play test to see if they did in fact reach that milestone.

    Exactly...in the end EQ1 players still have EQ1, EQ2 players have EQ2, those who like EQN have it, for the rest of us, we can simply play something else.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • YizleYizle Member Posts: 517
    Originally posted by Kiyoris
    Originally posted by ice-vortex

    It's definitely Everquest, but not the original Everquest. They bastardized the game by trying to adopt many of the WoW designs. EQ had 8 spells slots through at least the first few expansions.

    Sigh, what does WoW have to do with EQ's spell slot. It came from the increased demand from the community and the constantly increasing AA system. Anyway......

    Sadly yes many people use WoW as an excuse for every change in a game. Not saying it is not an effect on some but as an EQ player I do not believe it had any merit on them increasing our spell slots.

     

     

    I have no desire to have to change out spells/gear/weaps every few fights. Sounds time consuming and a step backwards

     

  • DatawarlockDatawarlock Member Posts: 338
    The trend is here because parents aren't buying their children upgradable high powered gaming rigs anymore, so if you can't smudge your dirty little fingers all over a screen or use a gaystation controller, it's not a viable system for today's corporate sales.
  • ZeroPointNRGZeroPointNRG Member Posts: 70
    Originally posted by Talint

    If you look at the old juggernauts of the MMO world, EQ 1, EQ 2, and Vanilla WoW, you literally were able to use all of your skills (usually 30+) at any given point. 

    While that is true, that in no way means those games had deep or complex combat systems.

     

    I raided as a rogue in vanilla WoW. My max dps rotation generally consisted of standing behind a mob and spamming back stab non stop, or spamming sinister strike and then hitting my eviscerate button. Literally two buttons involved. Raiding as a fire mage in BC wasn't much better: cast scorch x5, then just spam fireballs, occasionally using combustion and dps trinket. Basically 2-4 buttons, 85+% of the time spent pressing just one, (fireball). Being able to use several hot-bars worth of skills at any given time is kind of meaningless if the majority of  the high end content is spent pressing only 1-2 buttons.

     

    *I do realize that WoW rotations are generally much more complex now, and certainly in pvp you need access to many more utility/situational skills. 

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Less action bars yes (which is a good thing imo no more playing the UI, But more skills, assuming every class just has 4 class skills which i bet u they have more thats 4 skills u can pick between every class uve unlocked which are 40 classes so far ir seems and they can add more thats 160 skill in class abilities u can choose to use, thats not including the different weapon skills and the assumption that each class only gets 4 class skills. Im thinkining there be around 300-500 characters skills on release although some will be similiar most likly.
  • YizleYizle Member Posts: 517
    Originally posted by ZeroPointNRG
     

     

    *I do realize that WoW rotations are generally much more complex now, and certainly in pvp you need access to many more utility/situational skills. 

    Yeah really interested in seeing how the severe limits on abilities and the fact they restrict what types of those 4 abilities you can use will affect pvp.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Member UncommonPosts: 2,773

    Time for change I believe. I do give credit to the devs for not only doing this but also not just using this combat system as the only reason to try the game out if tired of WoW,Rift, SWTOR, dare I say late Eq 1 and EQ2 MMOs.

    Cant say majority in the world agree and cant say some in the world agree, but one thing is certain there is a reason for this trend but also the new trend in trying to be unique with all distinct features put together. Why there games like GW2, Wildstar, ESO, and EQN. 

     

    But do not give up just yet there games for niches and Im sure more MMORPGs like the juggernauts mention in the OP will be made as seen the attempts of many MMOs pre 2012

    8)

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  • FoxyShoxzyFoxyShoxzy Member UncommonPosts: 120

    As an endgame raiding Retribution Paladin in WoW, I have around 28 abilities that I use on a regular basis. Around 8 of those are rotational combat abilities. The rest are personal damage and defensive cooldowns, raid utility cooldowns, and situational abilities. The only macros I use are to allow me to cast heals and beneficial spells on other player's Unit Frames without targeting them (mouseover macros), or to activate potions and short-term cooldowns that are off the GCD in combination with some of my other abilities.

    Could I play my character by facerolling with fewer abilities? Probably, but I wouldn't be nearly as effective in endgame raiding, because those endgame raid encounters in WoW are designed around those situational abilities and knowing when to use them. Could I make macros on my Razer Nostromo that would combine multiple abilities in a single keypress? Sure, but I would be absolutely terrible and no longer have a raid spot.

     

    My personal dislike of limited skillsets is that they have to reduce the overall number of abilities a player has access to through either combination or reduction; the only way to straight up remove abilities and utility is by designing classes that don't have them, and encounters that don't require them. This might sound pretty ironic coming from a WoW player, but it's a "dumbing down" of the genre. I have more fun managing a greater number of abilities in WoW, than I do when playing with a limited skillset in a game like Guild Wars 2. It's an issue of personal preference. In WoW I don't feel like I'm playing my UI, but I do get a lot of satisfaction from being able to manage such a large skillset in a fast paced raid environment.

     

    The only new game that has my interest at the moment, is FFXIV: ARR. I have pre-ordered 2 copies of because it is the ONLY game on the radar that has not followed these new trends of "action combat" and limited skillsets. It's a shiny, new version of the classic MMO playstyle I have enjoyed over the last 8 years, and I'm saying a silent prayer that it will finally be "the game" to get me away from WoW and into a better community.

  • dwarfkinglordsdwarfkinglords Member UncommonPosts: 75

    i absolutely hate this trend... i can't even have 4 warrior abilities + a few other abilities i would like from other classes because there are only 4 freakin slots.. way to limited..

     

    basically if you want skills from 4 classes you pretty much only can pick 1 abilty, i hate this limit... i want diversitiy in the cool powers i have and feel powerful.. i dont care if i dont use it that much, i might do it once in a while.. FFARR looks gorgoesu with its 2 hot bars... so stop with the overzelous,  YOU RATHER HAVE 8 HOT BARS OR THIS!!! RANT.. 

    we just want a little more divserity.. screens today are high res enough to accomadate.. i really dont undertand this

    if they are only gonna allow 4, i really hope they have some kind of  FF: LIGHTNING RETURNS battle system where you can switch classes like crazy.. to have access to more skills..

    DONT LIMIT US!

  • Whiskey_SamWhiskey_Sam Member UncommonPosts: 323
    I wouldn't dislike the limited skill bars in current games as much if I was allowed to customize it.  But with half my skills dictated by my weapon and the rest dependent on the kind of slot available, I'm forced to use certain skills I otherwise wouldn't use if I were allowed to just pick the 8 skills I wanted.

    ___________________________
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  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437

    Fast paced action combat that replaces strategy and slow combat with combos and button mashing is fun for a few months until you have blisters on your fingers and realise you still don't know anyone in the game because you had no time to talk.

    30 minutes of action games are fun on a console. What isn't fun is putting it inside an MMO hoping it will magically work.

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Member Posts: 1,059

    I can only say that I am in favor of changes to combat mechanics that keep me looking at the action onscreen rather than at a screen hogging hot bar. Just because its a simple seeming set of abilities doesn't mean it plays out simply, just give GO a whirl. I am also in favor of any setup that removes macros from gaming as games are things to be played rather than programmed to a button to play for you.

     

    I am not certain I would call this an action combat system yet but the previews make it look like a game half way there. Its a hybrid system. Is it a trend in MMORPG's? Well it sure seems that way when you consider all the recent releases just like attempts at multi-platform gaming are.

     

    I disagree that this will limit chat or socializing in games. I think text chat is a thing of the past on its way out of modern gaming in favor of voice based chat and such a hybrid combat mechanic plays into that well. It's also easier for cross platform gaming which is something I see as a real driving force in simplifying the game UI in modern releases. Its also changing the way people group as soon as we hear one another's voices and altering who we choose to hang out with.

     

    The thing I hope we don't lose with all this streamlining of controls and abilities is a sense of identity and purpose for our characters in games. Such a loss makes it harder to invest in a character rather than feeling like you are playing some form of tool kit that can learn or do everything.

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