Theorycrafting

Kajidourden

So, I found it really odd the way SE announced Anarchist, Scholar and Summoner.  Not only did they add a new base class and two new jobs....but it's also the only one that has more than one job associated with it.  I don't think it would be any easier to do the same for any of the other classes (adding another job to it that is)....so maybe just as a way to bring in those two specific ones then?  We all know we needed another healer....but that could have come from CNJ as well, so it's an interesting decision to be sure.

Anyhow...what I really wanted to get into was theorycrafting for the other classes and their eventual second jobs.  Don't want to get TOO into the weeds, with abilities, etc though.  My list goes as follows:

MRD: Dark Knight, Berserker.  Something to add another DD to the MRD class since we already have the (sort of) hybrid WAR right now.  I can't see SAM coming out of this very likely though, since it would have to be an axe wielder...so DRK gets the nod from me.

ARC: Hunter, Sniper.  Now with this one I imagine it going a couple of different ways.  For example....Hunter could be your WoW-esque class with a bow and a pet, or it could be what everyone would imagine Sniper to be...pure ranged DD.  I suppose that would depend on how they want to go about it.  Though another pet class would be interesting...I really don't know which way they would go with this.  It all depends on if they actually bring Musketeer to life as an actual class. 

These were the only ones I could really come up with that have any real potential.  Anyone got anything for TMH, CNJ, PUG, LNC, and/or GLD?

Really I just wanted to gather other people's ideas.  Nothing serious, just casual interest.

Edit:  Perhaps another tank out of LNC?  They do have the ability to wear heavy armor after all.

Kajidourden

Bump for live letter post flood.  Will not bump again

twrule

They definitely are planning multiple jobs per class; not sure if confirmed but safe to assume.

I wrote a lengthy post about this elsewhere on these forums, so I'm just going to copy-paste it here (in goldenrod text):

I've been hearing a lot about 'Musketeer' as the next likely class (or more precisely, the next 'job' - I'm thinking it will be a job corresponding to the archer class, an alternative to Bard), so I think you are right here; we'll see them instead of 'Engineer', or at least first. Though I guess it's possible that Musketeer will be a class, not a job - in which case Engineer will be one of the jobs growing from it, and maybe Corsair or 'Gunner' as the other, with Ranger taking the other archer slot...

They have all but confirmed Samurai and Ninja - those two are way too popular throughout the franchise to be passed up, though which classes they will grow out of I don't know...I could see a Thief class growing into Ninja...maybe Lancer into Samurai? I don't know...

Also, Dark Knight is extremely likely - I don't think there has ever been an FF game with Paladins that didn't also have Dark Knights. It would be a pretty simple match-up to have Dark Knight be the second job growing from Marauder too. I think we can expect this before too long.

So, basically all those in the article are pretty likely and coming soon, I'd say, with the possible exception of Blue Mage (likely to show up eventually, not sure how soon - might be a second job growing out of the Thief or Gladiator classes maybe).

As for my own guesses:

-Conjurer > Geomancer (the lore for Conjurer would make this extremely natural - no pun intended - would expand on the offensive wind/earth/water spells of the Conjurer to make a more damage/off-healer hybrid)

-Thaumaturge > Oracle (Debuff-Centric support that will also tap into Arcanist skills probably)

-Thief or Gladiator (whichever Blue Mage does not come from) > Beastmaster (Also an iconic/popular class, though this one might come later on just because there are already 3 classes with pets, 1 of which is a dedicated pet class - dd and/or off-tank)

-Pugilist > Dancer (Support Buff/Debuff DD) or possibly Puppetmaster (versatile role support)

-Archer > Ranger (Heavy DD)

I'd also like it if they added a 3rd main healing and 3rd main tanking class...I'm sure they will be in demand...maybe another class like 'fencer' that uses a rapier with magic and grows into Red Mage (healer) and Rune Fencer/Mystic Knight, etc. (something that can pass as a tanking class).

So in summary (TL;DR):

All the jobs listed by the article are likely, but Musketeer instead of Engineer (or both plus Corsair).

Geomancer, Oracle, Beastmaster, Dancer (or Puppetmaster), Ranger, and maybe Red Mage and Rune Fencer are my guesses for down the road.

That'd make 22-24 jobs just for combat (more than FFXI has after a decade!) in additional to all the crafting and gathering jobs! (So if we do see that many, it'll take SOME time...)

Edit: Now that I think about it, it seems like they are trying to make the more iconic FF archetypes into 'jobs' while the classes are sort of generic. If that's the case, if that pattern holds, 'thief' would be a job if it is in at all, not a class. But that means Samurai and ninja might have to be bound to some generic katana-wielding class ('Far Eastern Blade'?), while there needs to be a generic dagger class ('Rogue'/Knife-fighter??) for Thief to grow out of. That'd still leave 2 job slots open in my above predictions though - a second job growing from Lancer (Knight??), and a second growing from the dagger class (Maybe *this* is Dancer and the Pugilist slot is Puppetmaster??, or maybe this is where Beastmaster or Blue Mage will come from??). Ah, speculation... 

Basically, I assumed not only that there would be at least 2 jobs to every class, but that it is possible for there to be more classes added eventually, and that only iconic Final Fantasy jobs will make appearances, even if some obscure ones are used (I referenced ones that only appeared in FF Tactics, FFXI or FFV) or perhaps even entirely new ones invented. I think they will add at least one more tanking and one more healing job, and diversify the dps jobs/roles more.

Kajidourden

As high as the demand for Samurai and Ninja is...I just don't think it'll happen, at least any time soon.

Even with another class "far eastern blade" for example....ninjas and samurai use vastly different weapon types.  Not just that, but even coming out of a rogue type class....that would mean ninjas would be dagger wielders.

I can definitely see the LNC>Tank job though.  And Geomancer from CNJ is honestly about as likely as we're going to get as the secondary given their lore and current ability set.

PUG> DNC/PUP is definitely one that I thought about as well. Both are just as likely given the current job setup.

I also think you're right about musketeer.  Given that so far every guild has belonged to a class and not a job and the fact that if musketeer was an archer job they would be using a bow, I can easily see musketeer growing into Corsair/Engineer both.  They fit the bill so perfectly, and likely the alternative to BRD will be a DD job...though my idea of a hunter could be another possibility.

Unfortunately, so far all we have that we can use for solidarity are weapon types for the current classes that only have one job, and the fact that there's a musketeers guild that is not utilized.  Although honestly that's a lot of information to work with lol.  It eliminates possibilites and cooberates others.

I can't wait to see what they come up with though.

twrule

Originally posted by Kajidourden

As high as the demand for Samurai and Ninja is...I just don't think it'll happen, at least any time soon.

Even with another class "far eastern blade" for example....ninjas and samurai use vastly different weapon types.  Not just that, but even coming out of a rogue type class....that would mean ninjas would be dagger wielders.

I can definitely see the LNC>Tank job though.  And Geomancer from CNJ is honestly about as likely as we're going to get as the secondary given their lore and current ability set.

PUG> DNC/PUP is definitely one that I thought about as well. Both are just as likely given the current job setup.

I also think you're right about musketeer.  Given that so far every guild has belonged to a class and not a job and the fact that if musketeer was an archer job they would be using a bow, I can easily see musketeer growing into Corsair/Engineer both.  They fit the bill so perfectly, and likely the alternative to BRD will be a DD job...though my idea of a hunter could be another possibility.

Unfortunately, so far all we have that we can use for solidarity are weapon types for the current classes that only have one job, and the fact that there's a musketeers guild that is not utilized.  Although honestly that's a lot of information to work with lol.  It eliminates possibilites and cooberates others.

I can't wait to see what they come up with though.

I don't think it is necessary to assume that all jobs growing out of a single class must use the same weapon type of that class - without any changes to the current system, they could make job crystals allow more weapon types to be equipped. Heck, right now, technically some classes can equip more than one weapon type; for example CNJ can equip both wands/shields and staves. The main thing we should consider is whether it would make sense for both jobs to use the core abilities of the class they grow out of, as we at least know that that will be the case.

Therefore, I also assume that some second jobs could use different weapons. Dark Knights, for example, are a likely job, but they are known for using scythes or greatswords more than axes, so why not? They could still be made to use most marauder abilities as is, and those will be augmented by their job-specific abilities. Most classes have abilities that are generic enough to be used even with very different weapon-types.

I think the devs have hinted strongly at Samurai and Ninja making it in, and it wouldn't be too hard to design a class with generic abilities that suit them both, though I don't know if that's how it will shake out. Ninja could share a dagger-ish class with Thief, and Samurai with something else, Lancer maybe - we'll see. It would make sense for them to fill out existing classes with additional jobs before they went about adding new classes.

If I'm right, then we just have to look at the general pattern of abilities that a class gets and how they could be specialized differently than the way the existing jobs specialize them without any of them being made entirely obsolete (though we can use a little imagination because job abilities can pretty substantially change how those abilities are used).

Kajidourden

Originally posted by twrule

Originally posted by Kajidourden

As high as the demand for Samurai and Ninja is...I just don't think it'll happen, at least any time soon.

Even with another class "far eastern blade" for example....ninjas and samurai use vastly different weapon types.  Not just that, but even coming out of a rogue type class....that would mean ninjas would be dagger wielders.

I can definitely see the LNC>Tank job though.  And Geomancer from CNJ is honestly about as likely as we're going to get as the secondary given their lore and current ability set.

PUG> DNC/PUP is definitely one that I thought about as well. Both are just as likely given the current job setup.

I also think you're right about musketeer.  Given that so far every guild has belonged to a class and not a job and the fact that if musketeer was an archer job they would be using a bow, I can easily see musketeer growing into Corsair/Engineer both.  They fit the bill so perfectly, and likely the alternative to BRD will be a DD job...though my idea of a hunter could be another possibility.

Unfortunately, so far all we have that we can use for solidarity are weapon types for the current classes that only have one job, and the fact that there's a musketeers guild that is not utilized.  Although honestly that's a lot of information to work with lol.  It eliminates possibilites and cooberates others.

I can't wait to see what they come up with though.

I don't think it is necessary to assume that all jobs growing out of a single class must use the same weapon type of that class - without any changes to the current system, they could make job crystals allow more weapon types to be equipped. Heck, right now, technically some classes can equip more than one weapon type; for example CNJ can equip both wands/shields and staves. The main thing we should consider is whether it would make sense for both jobs to use the core abilities of the class they grow out of, as we at least know that that will be the case.

Therefore, I also assume that some second jobs could use different weapons. Dark Knights, for example, are a likely job, but they are known for using scythes or greatswords more than axes, so why not? They could still be made to use most marauder abilities as is, and those will be augmented by their job-specific abilities. Most classes have abilities that are generic enough to be used even with very different weapon-types.

I think the devs have hinted strongly at Samurai and Ninja making it in, and it wouldn't be too hard to design a class with generic abilities that suit them both, though I don't know if that's how it will shake out. Ninja could share a dagger-ish class with Thief, and Samurai with something else, Lancer maybe - we'll see. It would make sense for them to fill out existing classes with additional jobs before they went about adding new classes.

If I'm right, then we just have to look at the general pattern of abilities that a class gets and how they could be specialized differently than the way the existing jobs specialize them without any of them being made entirely obsolete (though we can use a little imagination because job abilities can pretty substantially change how those abilities are used).

That's true, CNJ can use the wand and Shield, along with THM.  The fact that nobody else can use any other weapon combined with the fact that even though both can use wand and shield they also both have relic staves though leads me to believe that it'll be be one weapon per class.  A definite possibility, I just don't know if I buy it.

 A LNC changing into let's say SAM would have LNC abilities/WS'....wouldn't make much sense for a SAM to be using mostly skills/weaponskills with "thrust" in the name if their weapon is going to change after all, so I say nein to that one.  The only way that would work is if SAM was made into a polearm user, which is kinda reaching.

Edit: Maybe MRD then, since the type/skills are slashing.  Buuuut then we're back to square one with Dark Knight.  I think Samurai would require it's only class not just because of the above stuff, but also because of the secondary job requirement.  Obviously Dark Knight would use THM, but SAM?  PUG maybe...?  Plus...I think adding weapons is going to create a LOT of problems unless they don't start until level 30 and are job-specific, unless they are at the exact same level with the exact same stats as great axes.  Ahhh the baffling possibilities lol!

I do think though that Ninja using daggers is much more possible.

 

BadSpock

Way I see it-

Limsa Lominsa has only 2 classes - 3rd class will go there.

My thought is Thief, fits in the Limsa Lominsa theme of pirates well, melee DPS type uses Daggers, focus on DoTs and other such debuffs to kind of match what people are saying Summoner does as a ranged spell DPS.

Thief 30 - Pugilist 15 = Ninja job - evolution from Thief, uses daggers, melee dps + debuffs, has some limited stealth / teleportation mechanics.

 

Then after that -

They'll need another Tank and another Healer.

What I think they should do?

Tier 3 jobs.

Instead of two base-classes at 30 and 15 to unlock, two jobs at 50 and 30 to unlock.

Not any more powerful, but more versatile. Can fill one or two roles in end-game based on gearing - cross job skills from parent jobs instead of cross-class.

Red Mage - healer/ranged caster DD hybrid - Black Mage 50, White Mage 30

Blue Mage - ranged/melee hybrid support - Bard 50, Scholar 30

Samurai - tank/melee DPS hybrid - Dragoon 50, Warrior 30

 

There are only so many combinations of classes at 30/15 that would make sense, I think going Tier 3 with Jobs like 50/30 instead would be super cool.

NetSage

I imagine the level cap will be raised eventually and that's where more jobs may come from as well.

Gormogon

Seeing what they did with Arcanist I just figured they'd eventually add a second job with a different role to each of the other classes:

 

CNJ - Geomancer, mentioned earlier, classic job, sounds right on the money.   DD or support.

THM - Oracle, mentioned earlier, sounds good.  Support.

ARC - Hunter, mentioned earlier, yep.  DD.

PGL - Dancer, mentioned earlier, agree here too.  I know there's been a push for an evasion tank, but Dancer as an alternative to Bard for players who want to play melee is better IMO.

GLA - Mystic/Magic/Dark Knight, mentioned earlier, seems to fit as the Paladin's DD complement. 

MRD - Berserker, though I imagine it as a DD support role using "shouts" more than DD focused.

LNC - ???, they've had different _____ Knight enemy classes in Tactics they could probably pull from here, but none of them use a lance AFAIK.  Alternatively, some sort of pet job maybe.

 

Additional classes:

Swashbuckler - fits as LL's third class.  Leads to Thief job and ???

Musketeer - a lot of players seem to want it.  Jobs: Cannoneer (DD) and Chemist (tossed AOE heals and buffs).

 

I like the idea suggested earlier of a third tier.  Since the level cap will be raised eventually, perhaps they could combine the two and make this next tier require three classes at the new level cap.  Possibilities would be the much desired Red Mage, Samurai, and Ninja jobs.

twrule

Originally posted by Kajidourden

That's true, CNJ can use the wand and Shield, along with THM.  The fact that nobody else can use any other weapon combined with the fact that even though both can use wand and shield they also both have relic staves though leads me to believe that it'll be be one weapon per class.  A definite possibility, I just don't know if I buy it.

Admittedly, I was reaching a bit here - but I think it's actually significantly more likely that job-specific weapon types will make it in. Remember that every piece of gear in the game has some job or class requirement already (or it says 'all classes' on it to indicate the absence). It would be a simple matter to make weapons that were say 'DRK' only and only show up at level 30+. They did the same thing in FFXI more or less.

 A LNC changing into let's say SAM would have LNC abilities/WS'....wouldn't make much sense for a SAM to be using mostly skills/weaponskills with "thrust" in the name if their weapon is going to change after all, so I say nein to that one.  The only way that would work is if SAM was made into a polearm user, which is kinda reaching.

I agree with you here - that SAM would come from LNC was just an off the top of my head possibility, but after thinking on it more, it's pretty unlikely. I mean, samurai were known to sometimes thrust their weapons forward, and they did sometimes use polearms, but the FF samurai always use 'great katanas' so it would be a stretch maybe.

The question is what the second job from Lancer would be - that is probably the most difficult slot to speculate for. There are only 3 classes whose title (and guild's title) focuses on the type of weapon they use: Pugilists, Archers, and Lancers. If our predictions are right for archers and pugilists, they will still use the same weapon type, so it's not an issue. Lancers, however, are tough, because you'd think they should still use a lance - after all, the lore has you spending a lot of time perfecting your use of the polearm - but there are no lance-using jobs other than Dragoon in the FF mythos that I am aware of. This means one of 3 things - either 1) SE is going to invent an entirely new lance-using job, which seems unlikely, 2) They are going to give us a lance-using variant of a classic job, maybe 'Knight', a tank job that uses a shield in one hand an a short lance in the other, even though classically 'Knights' only ever used sword/shield, or 3) They will give us a job that has a different weapon type that is wielded in a reasonably similar fashion to a lance; among the classic weapon types, I can only think of 'rods', in their specific variant that made them work like bo-staves, which were thrusted mainly - this type of weapon was generally reserved for certain types of magic-using classes though, which would mean that the second job of Lancer is some sort of magic/melee hybrid. Maybe THAT could be Oracle, or one of the other obscure mage classes, I'm not sure. 

Edit: Maybe MRD then, since the type/skills are slashing.  Buuuut then we're back to square one with Dark Knight.  I think Samurai would require it's only class not just because of the above stuff, but also because of the secondary job requirement.  Obviously Dark Knight would use THM, but SAM?  PUG maybe...?  Plus...I think adding weapons is going to create a LOT of problems unless they don't start until level 30 and are job-specific, unless they are at the exact same level with the exact same stats as great axes.  Ahhh the baffling possibilities lol!

I suppose it's possible that DRK will be from THM, MRD will have Berzerker or something like that, and SAM would probably have its own class in that case. I really feel like DRK is going to come from MRD though - it's got all the 'blood' oriented abilities and what not - the weapon abilities are well-suited, and THM really doesn't have much in the way of 'dark' spells or debuffs which fit the Dark Knight motif - I can't imagine a DRK using spells like blizzard and fire in rotation the way THM does, so they would have to really overhaul the playstyle for DRK somehow.

I do think though that Ninja using daggers is much more possible.

 Even if they come from a dagger-centric class, I'm pretty sure NIN will have its own weapon type - katanas or 'ninja edges', like they did in previous games, even if they are wielded similarly to twin daggers. And remember that NIN always dual-wield in FF games, so either the class they come from has to dual-wield, or the job crystal will allow dual-wielding.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Way I see it-

Limsa Lominsa has only 2 classes - 3rd class will go there.

My thought is Thief, fits in the Limsa Lominsa theme of pirates well, melee DPS type uses Daggers, focus on DoTs and other such debuffs to kind of match what people are saying Summoner does as a ranged spell DPS.

Thief 30 - Pugilist 15 = Ninja job - evolution from Thief, uses daggers, melee dps + debuffs, has some limited stealth / teleportation mechanics.

This was pretty much my way of thinking too - though Limsa might actually end up with 4 classes if they add in Musketeers as well...

Tier 3 jobs.

Instead of two base-classes at 30 and 15 to unlock, two jobs at 50 and 30 to unlock.

There are only so many combinations of classes at 30/15 that would make sense, I think going Tier 3 with Jobs like 50/30 instead would be super cool.

Not that I disagree that that would be cool, but I think it's unlikely. Right now the pattern is that you start with a generic class and you grow into an iconic FF job. I don't think they would want to stomp on the iconic jobs by making the final jobs something different (and they would have to invent a lot of new jobs, abandoning the classic ones, if what you are suggesting was going to work mechanically across the board). 

Originally posted by Gormogon

Seeing what they did with Arcanist I just figured they'd eventually add a second job with a different role to each of the other classes:

LNC - ???, they've had different _____ Knight enemy classes in Tactics they could probably pull from here, but none of them use a lance AFAIK.  Alternatively, some sort of pet job maybe.

Yeah, like I mentioned above, this is the hardest one to guess - we can probably safely assume only that it won't be a straight DD like Dragoon, but instead either a tank or some kind of support/dd hybrid. If it were a tank, it'd probably be an original variant on the 'Knight', and they would have to bring in job abilities that overhauled how the current weaponskills which have positional requirements work, maybe they would get an active stance ability that makes them tank-ier while removing those positional requirements too. Like I said above, if it were a DD/support, they would probably end up being something more magic-based but with a lot of 'rod' abilities, which would be pretty awkward as far as FF jobs go, but who knows. 

I feel like other magic/melee hybrids will make it in eventually - like red mage or blue mage, for example, so to have lancer go that route would probably be a tad redundant - which makes me think 'Knight' (with lance/shield) is more likely, even though it bends the classics a bit - but then when you ask what would make a lance/shield tank growing from lancer significantly different from a Paladin tank...then things become problematic again...This brings me back to my original post where I brought up Rune Fencer; a 'magic tank' (i.e. a tank that uses a mix of weapon and magic abilities and specializes in absorbing magic damage) is the niche that has not been filled yet, if there is one. It's *possible* that Lancer could grow into Rune Fencer, where Rune Fencer wielded a rapier (a 'thrusting' weapon which would be similar to a small lance). However, Red Mages also classically use the rapier, and if the later was to be in the game, it would make more sense for both Rune Fencer and Red Mage to grow out of their own separate class, 'Fencer', so if that's the case, I am at a loss as to what Lancer could grow into as a second job...maybe a 'rod' user like Oracle really is the most likely (since it focuses on buffs and debuffs, it might be different enough from red and blue mage) and THM becomes some other support based mage class like say...Time Mage?

But it seems somewhat strange lore-wise for a lancer to suddenly go down the Oracle path...that alone makes that seem unlikely...

So...Mystic Knight (magic tank), with a lance/shield combo or Rune Fencer (and Red Mage grows from something else or doesn't make it in at all) for Lancer?

OR...Beastmaster in a variant that now uses a lance/javelin....??...that could make pretty good lore sense...though that would definitely mean Ranger (with no permanent pet accompaniment - maybe like the FFV ranger where various animal helpers could be temporarily summoned) for ARC so as not to be redundant there...and then my idea of a 'fencer' class that grows into Red Mage and Rune Fencer would explain the last tank and healer...though RDM is as likely to be a melee dps/support/healing hybrid than a pure healer...maybe a healer whose offensive spells and melee abilities synergize with their heals?...bah...

Thoughts?

Edit: TL;DR: LNC>Beastmaster(?), new class 'Fencer'> Rune Fencer (Mage Tank) and Red Mage (Melee/magic/support healer, who attacks with spells and melee abilities to power up their heals)(??) - SAM I still think will have its own class - perhaps instead of the 'Fencer' class, we will have Mystic Knight as a mage tank coming from GLD, like Gormogon said, no Red mage (or coming from somewhere else), Ninja or Blue mage paired with Samurai coming from a new class, whichever of those two not paired with Samurai is paired with Thief. If no red mage, then the third healer would have to be Chemist/Engineer, coming from Musketeer...healing primarily with HoTs and support buffs while possibly also dealing damage to fuel heals, etc.