The thing is that the reason cartoony graphics age better is because the brain is not judging it against the real world around us. So called realistic graphics age a lot faster because the things we have to compare with are everywhere.
It is not so much that WoW for an example have better graphics... It have one of the most basic art-styles out there seeing as it is built on the WC3 style. But since it has no connection to reality in any way shape or form the brain have an easier time to accept anything that is not real.
I am not explaning this very good. The best way i can describe it is early Pixar movies compare to the CGI effects in regular movies at the time. Both have aged but the effects are more cringe worthy because they strive to look realistic.
Am i making sense..?
I agree, realism ages horribly when it comes to video games. There's no doubt about it stylized graphics look better over time.
I agree with you both but i still think WOW could do A LOT better than this. character models are horrible, so horrible that i DO NOT create any character anymore. don't really wanna go through the pain of looking at those hideous cartoons. even Tom & Jerry looks much better.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
IMO the wow one looks extremely more detailed. EQ2 looks old and looks like plastic.
That's not max settings, or you have some things turned off for EQ2. Also, there's no detail in that WoW ss. What exactly are you talking about?
You also are in the Ice starting area for Qeynos. It's literally an ice zone. Then you went to WoW and went into a very green zone.
Seriously, bias much ?
Doesn't stop that elf model from looking absolutely disgusting.
That's the "newer" presets they gave us access to. That's not the normal EQ2 elf model, and everyone has disavowed any knowledge of knowing about the new ones because they DO look horrible. The older ones ironically look nicer . Oh, and that model looks infinitely better than what SOE has in store for EQ:N. So....yea
WoW's graphics have looked aged since the day it released. WoW's graphics was simply released at a point where it couldn't get any worse so how could it have aged any more than it already was at release? That's no excuse whatsoever for EQ:N to go the cartoony kindergarten route by any means whatsoever.
When you release a game at its worst, and make minor shader improvements (WoW) you're not going to age anymore than you did when you released.
However, when you release in an unoptimized mess, but then make major improvements over the years you age VERY WELL regardless of the fact that they tried a different graphical approach. EQ2 used more mipmapping and physical model graphics than they spent on textures themselves. This left a VERY VERY plastic looking game at launch.
Over the years the EQ2 dev team have made major strides in making the characters & game look less plastic looking. If i were home right now I'd boot up my old EQ2 account on Ultra graphics and show you what I mean. These google images are all I can give you for now, and many of them are on low-medium graphics with ZERO mimap, highest textures, etc.
For those of you claiming the "Cartoony" look ages better than a more realistic approach, I respectfully disagree. If i could disagree more than 100% I would !
-Bear
ps: Although fan-art, this is how I had hoped the Kerran would look in EQ:N [Link]
pss: please excuse the offensive wow comparison screenshot of the new EQ:N Kerran. It's the only clear screeny I could find detailing them.
I play WoW at 120+ FPS max settings DX11
I Play AoC 75+ FPS max settings DX10
I Play GW2 80+ FPS Max settings
I PLay TSW 65+ FPS MAX Settings DX11
I Play SWTOR at 70+ FPS Max settings
To get EQ2 running at least a consistant 60 FPS with no dips to 30- while moving in open areas, I need to lower the graphics to the point that it looks worse than EQ1...
Get out of here with your "However, when you release in an unoptimized mess, but then make major improvements over the years you age VERY WELL "
There is actual science in this answer....WARNING... You may learn sumzthins!
Lifelike humans and graphics appeal to human nature, people find them pleasing to look at and interact with. BUT, there is a time when graphic cards and processors get better where the human mind can begin to notice flaws in the movements and reactions of the simulated humans. Science has shown that once these flaws are noticed, the mind counteracts with a sense of revulsion. As the game ages, and the graphics no longer look as lifelike, the human mind actually pushes it away.
I'll post a link to Uncanny Valley wiki, so people can read all about it and then adhere it to game graphics, because it does apply.
Cartoon graphics do not have this problem, because the image is not trying to emulate actual life, but a hand drawn depiction. This is where they say, the characters hold up over time.
Although a fun thought exorcise this doesn't actually fit with this scenario. If it were in the "Uncanny Valley" then then an ArtStyle aimed towards a more realistic approach would look gross or wrong...they don't.
In this case it is the opposite direction. Cartoony graphics just look wrong, and seem like they're imitating life which just doesn't fit in realistic looking environments.
If that were the case, explain why Disney classic movies still outsell many of the newer movies released.
Just because you do not like the answer does not make it less valid.
Screenshots arent enough, you gotta actually play the games to see the difference which is what I did in the last few days. And WoW seemed a little more pleasing to the eye overall. EQ2 looked very bland, the environments are the worst part.
Originally posted by tkreep Screenshots arent enough, you gotta actually play the games to see the difference which is what I did in the last few days. And WoW seemed a little more pleasing to the eye overall. EQ2 looked very bland, the environments are the worst part.
I notice that more and more with the newer graphics. The modern shaders and mapping work much better in motion than in a static image.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I will gladly settle for stylized design to avoid distraction in game or the game dying from requiring a monster rig that cuts itself off from significant revenue streams.
THIS. Stylized graphics mean that you don't have to spend thousands on a whole new monster rig each time a new game comes out. And they're not as jarring to the eye as hyper-realistic graphics can be.
I like realistic graphics as much as the next person, but at the same time, I want to be able to enjoy an MMO with other people. If that means stylized graphics so that the devs make money and so my graphics card doesn't commit seppuku every time I log in, so be it.
Originally posted by tkreep Screenshots arent enough, you gotta actually play the games to see the difference which is what I did in the last few days. And WoW seemed a little more pleasing to the eye overall. EQ2 looked very bland, the environments are the worst part.
EQ2 does look cool with all of the graphical settings set to max....it just runs at 10-15FPS, and still only looks like a "good" 9 year old game.
Originally posted by newbinator I think WoW looks better than EQ2. But preference in art style is entirely subjective.
Looks is in the eyes of the beholder sometimes, BUT I can say that WoW game performance far exceeds EQ2. The combat in EQ2 is just missing something and no matter how I config. it EQ2 is just a resource hog or something.... always glitchy.
EQ2's graphics were very advanced for the time, but the aesthetic has always looked horrible to me. Just so plasticky & unnatural, and the fact that they move like robots doesn't help either. Not to mention the horribly unoptimized engine which is capable of bringing even modern high-end PCs to their knees.
WoW's graphics aren't very good, but the aesthetics are fantastic. The world still feels as vibrant & alive as ever, and the only disconnect I've experienced is when the newer character models (goblins, pandaren, worgen) are standing next to the older ones. Even then, it's not that bad.
WoW is like a Don Bluth film, holds up very well and is always a pleasure to watch. EQ2 is like an early 90's CGI film, sure it looked impressive at the time, but now it's just cringe-worthy.
Oh, and to say that Diablo 3 & WoW have the same art style is laughable at best, and pretty much destroys the credibility of anyone who puts forth such a ridiculous claim. The similarities are superficial at best.
Spot on. This is a Opinion VS Opinion thread. Here Ill log onto EQ2 right now and take a SS on max settings and compare it to a wow screenshot.
IMO the wow one looks extremely more detailed. EQ2 looks old and looks like plastic.
That's not max settings, or you have some things turned off for EQ2. Also, there's no detail in that WoW ss. What exactly are you talking about?
You also are in the Ice starting area for Qeynos. It's literally an ice zone. Then you went to WoW and went into a very green zone.
Seriously, bias much ?
Not max settings? Ill literally take a video of me showing my settings. I am not lying and dont call me one. That is max settings. You just dont want to admit that it looks like complete garbage.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
ps: Although fan-art, this is how I had hoped the Kerran would look in EQ:N [Link]
That looks worse than the original EQ2 models. Awful, bland, boring art that has no character at all. It looks like a pissed off, drowned alley cat in a suit of armor.
I couldn't even imagine trying to play a Kerran all that long if they looked anything like that.
Now with all this being said... The Kerran head model was not all that... nice.. It was a bit too cartoony and looked.. well goofy.
If they sharpen the lines a bit and slim parts of the mouth a bit i think it will look a lot better.
Sure. There's room for improvement for the Kerran model. Clean up the lines a bit and it would look a lot better.
Still, we're talking about a race of cat people. Trying to be hyper-realistic about that is silly. It's like wanting a realistic looking Orc or Troll or Ratonga. It makes no sense. The larger concern is if the world has a seamless, coherent feel to it, with the environments and the character models blending together well.
I guess it could be true. I hate WoWs graphics just as much today as the day it launched. Its the main reason I could never stick with it. The kiddie graphics drove me crazy.
WoW has in my opinion the smoothest animation and most precise combat in any MMO's. Plus the game itself looked Warcraft 10 years ago, 10 years later, it still looks Warcraft. So on those fronts, WoW's graphics did hold up better over time. We're talking about smooth animation and combat controls, plus the look & feel of the game has always looked and felt like Warcraft universe.
Although for EQN, they can't claim that the graphics & feel of the game look Everquest. But they could possibly rival WoW in smooth animation and precise combat controls. We don't know yet, we haven't seen enough of the game to know that yet.
People underestimate the importance of smooth animation and combat controls for gamers. EQ1 & EQ2's animations have always sucked, I'm saying this as a die hard Everquest fan. And when it comes to combat controls, there's no worse combat control than what EQ2 has to offer. It just doesn't feel right with EQ2, and I've played it for many years. Combat controls are just clunky in EQ2, not smooth at all.
Stop reading when you called EQN's graphics 'kindergarteny crap'. Your maturity level is too low to understand that stylized =/= for children, so whatever you have to say on the subject isn't worth anyone's time.
For the people that understand that EQN's graphics aren't aimed at children:
SoE should have just said the two biggest things in favor of a system like this:
easier to run
easier to develop for
Given that the graphics certainly don't look bad (unless you have a bias against heroic fantasy), these 2 things should be the biggest factors.
I have issues with the way they portray the Kerrans too, as well as not being a huge fan of the oversized shoulderpads. however I think the 'disney' faces with the expressiveness will be a cool addition to the game. And the environments look really good. So while its not my first choice, the game certainly looks very good to me.
And i happen to think both WoW and EQ2 still look good today, so it was an odd thing to say. except the EQ2 player models. outside of a few races theyve looked absolutely atrocious since day 1, soga or non soga. Worst hair ever.
I didn't think the models fit the world at all. The models = cartoony (goofy as someone said). The world = WOW-like, but not as cartoony as the models.
This is a disjoint here and I don't mean the one smouldering in your hand.
Has SOE given any indication that the game's even in Alpha right now? What I saw at SOE Live was a tech demo more than anything else. Seems like there's plenty of time for them to fix any disjoints and to clean up their character models.
Comments
Here's a good comparison;
Panda vs Panda
I agree with you both but i still think WOW could do A LOT better than this. character models are horrible, so horrible that i DO NOT create any character anymore. don't really wanna go through the pain of looking at those hideous cartoons. even Tom & Jerry looks much better.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
How about a game that's 11 years old and looks, looked, and has aged better than both WoW or EQ2?
That's the "newer" presets they gave us access to. That's not the normal EQ2 elf model, and everyone has disavowed any knowledge of knowing about the new ones because they DO look horrible. The older ones ironically look nicer
. Oh, and that model looks infinitely better than what SOE has in store for EQ:N. So....yea
I play WoW at 120+ FPS max settings DX11
I Play AoC 75+ FPS max settings DX10
I Play GW2 80+ FPS Max settings
I PLay TSW 65+ FPS MAX Settings DX11
I Play SWTOR at 70+ FPS Max settings
To get EQ2 running at least a consistant 60 FPS with no dips to 30- while moving in open areas, I need to lower the graphics to the point that it looks worse than EQ1...
Get out of here with your "However, when you release in an unoptimized mess, but then make major improvements over the years you age VERY WELL "
You win the thread, sir.
I notice that more and more with the newer graphics. The modern shaders and mapping work much better in motion than in a static image.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
THIS. Stylized graphics mean that you don't have to spend thousands on a whole new monster rig each time a new game comes out. And they're not as jarring to the eye as hyper-realistic graphics can be.
I like realistic graphics as much as the next person, but at the same time, I want to be able to enjoy an MMO with other people. If that means stylized graphics so that the devs make money and so my graphics card doesn't commit seppuku every time I log in, so be it.
EQ2 does look cool with all of the graphical settings set to max....it just runs at 10-15FPS, and still only looks like a "good" 9 year old game.
Looks is in the eyes of the beholder sometimes, BUT I can say that WoW game performance far exceeds EQ2. The combat in EQ2 is just missing something and no matter how I config. it EQ2 is just a resource hog or something.... always glitchy.
That looks like a rat.
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Not max settings? Ill literally take a video of me showing my settings. I am not lying and dont call me one. That is max settings. You just dont want to admit that it looks like complete garbage.
Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
Waiting on: Ashes of Creation
That looks worse than the original EQ2 models. Awful, bland, boring art that has no character at all. It looks like a pissed off, drowned alley cat in a suit of armor.
I couldn't even imagine trying to play a Kerran all that long if they looked anything like that.
Now with all this being said... The Kerran head model was not all that... nice.. It was a bit too cartoony and looked.. well goofy.
If they sharpen the lines a bit and slim parts of the mouth a bit i think it will look a lot better.
This have been a good conversation
Sure. There's room for improvement for the Kerran model. Clean up the lines a bit and it would look a lot better.
Still, we're talking about a race of cat people. Trying to be hyper-realistic about that is silly. It's like wanting a realistic looking Orc or Troll or Ratonga. It makes no sense. The larger concern is if the world has a seamless, coherent feel to it, with the environments and the character models blending together well.
This thread outlines why I'd rather see WoW's simple and low end graphics with all the people bragging about system specs and the like..
Gee, limiting your player base to look pretty? What could go wrong!!!
Pfft..
WoW has in my opinion the smoothest animation and most precise combat in any MMO's. Plus the game itself looked Warcraft 10 years ago, 10 years later, it still looks Warcraft. So on those fronts, WoW's graphics did hold up better over time. We're talking about smooth animation and combat controls, plus the look & feel of the game has always looked and felt like Warcraft universe.
Although for EQN, they can't claim that the graphics & feel of the game look Everquest. But they could possibly rival WoW in smooth animation and precise combat controls. We don't know yet, we haven't seen enough of the game to know that yet.
People underestimate the importance of smooth animation and combat controls for gamers. EQ1 & EQ2's animations have always sucked, I'm saying this as a die hard Everquest fan. And when it comes to combat controls, there's no worse combat control than what EQ2 has to offer. It just doesn't feel right with EQ2, and I've played it for many years. Combat controls are just clunky in EQ2, not smooth at all.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
Stop reading when you called EQN's graphics 'kindergarteny crap'. Your maturity level is too low to understand that stylized =/= for children, so whatever you have to say on the subject isn't worth anyone's time.
For the people that understand that EQN's graphics aren't aimed at children:
SoE should have just said the two biggest things in favor of a system like this:
easier to run
easier to develop for
Given that the graphics certainly don't look bad (unless you have a bias against heroic fantasy), these 2 things should be the biggest factors.
I have issues with the way they portray the Kerrans too, as well as not being a huge fan of the oversized shoulderpads. however I think the 'disney' faces with the expressiveness will be a cool addition to the game. And the environments look really good. So while its not my first choice, the game certainly looks very good to me.
And i happen to think both WoW and EQ2 still look good today, so it was an odd thing to say. except the EQ2 player models. outside of a few races theyve looked absolutely atrocious since day 1, soga or non soga. Worst hair ever.
Yet to get EQ2 running a consistant 60+ FPS with a freakin 7990, you need to lower the settings to the point that it looks worse than EQ1...go figure
Has SOE given any indication that the game's even in Alpha right now? What I saw at SOE Live was a tech demo more than anything else. Seems like there's plenty of time for them to fix any disjoints and to clean up their character models.