Seriously? An enemy also takes more than two arrows in the chest. Reality is not meant for games. It can not coexist unless you have some really lame type of gameplay.
Lets have 40 people attack this one enemy, sure that makes sense. Yet combat of all things? Wow
We are not asking for reality.
We simply want a combat system that makes sense. When i play Halo i don't question the fact that I can jump over vehicles 8 ft in the air because it makes sense to me that master chief is in a combat suit that amplifies his human abilities. This was explained to me. What is unexplainable is the type of combat the OP brought up...The infinite amount of jumping while shooting fireballs while kiting your opponent while running away while holding the enemy teams flag while...etc. This does not make sense to me.
so again, we don't want realism, we want things to make sense and be more engaging, something we can wrap our head around and immerse ourselves which allows us to strategically act and react to our environment and opponents with purpose. That is the bottom line, to act and react with purpose as opposed to aimlessly mashing buttons.
Seriously? An enemy also takes more than two arrows in the chest. Reality is not meant for games. It can not coexist unless you have some really lame type of gameplay.
Lets have 40 people attack this one enemy, sure that makes sense. Yet combat of all things? Wow
We are not asking for reality.
We simply want a combat system that makes sense. When i play Halo i don't question the fact that I can jump over vehicles 8 ft in the air because it makes sense to me that master chief is in a combat suit that amplifies his human abilities. This was explained to me. What is unexplainable is the type of combat the OP brought up...The infinite amount of jumping while shooting fireballs while kiting your opponent while running away while holding the enemy teams flag while...etc. This does not make sense to me.
so again, we don't want realism, we want things to make sense and be more engaging, something we can wrap our head around and immerse ourselves which allows us to strategically act and react to our environment and opponents with purpose. That is the bottom line, to act and react with purpose as opposed to aimlessly mashing buttons.
How can you wrap your head around 10 guys beating on one boss. Please explain that to me. I can not wrap my head around that at all.
It's nice in theory, but usually implemented poorly. I'm all for characters being able to make evasive rolls/dodges/hops or whatever, but holding down your strafe key and bunny hopping around a target is stupid and should not be a rewarding tactic.
If dodging is going to be a thing in a game, make the direction and timing of those moves really matter. If you roll yourself into an attack, it should still hit. Making the entire maneuver a period of invincibility like Guild Wars 2 did really sets the skill cap for a game to the lowest bar possible, and becomes a very unfulfilling chore. I also think those "don't stand here" red circles that are becoming way to common also remove a large part of the fun in a dodging system. Make monster attacks recognizable through actual experience and practice. Make dodges an actual attempt to get out of the way of an attack and put some distance.
I'm not as picky with regards to attacks rooting you in place or not. I prefer the root in place overall as it makes timing and positioning factors you need to consider before you make an attack, but better yet, i'd prefer to see skills that move your character a certain appropriate direction according to the skill. Vindictus and Tera did this well to some extent.
Originally posted by Wolfenpride I also think those "don't stand here" red circles that are becoming way to common also remove a large part of the fun in a dodging system. Make monster attacks recognizable through actual experience and practice. Make dodges an actual attempt to get out of the way of an attack and put some distance.
Players seem to have enough issues not standing in huge red circles that could have text pop up telling them to move.
I'll take fake and fun over real and crappy. Any day. When you show me an example of real and fun, why not - but I like my games to be fun before anything else.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
Originally posted by gessekai332 Why did this EVER become a thing? In any kind of real life combat whenever you are executing a strike you have to standing still or at the very least lunging in the direction of the strike (most of the time forward). And casting while moving?? what?? most people cant even walk and eat at the same time how the hell can u expect to do something that requires an extreme amount of concentration while running? Even in FPS games, when you are running and trying to shoot you get penalized in terms of accuracy of your target reticule. I dont know why gamers expect such an unnatural thing to be standard in mmorpg games. You know why in a lot of games the character models look weird while attacking and running? IT'S BECAUSE ITS UNNATURAL AND DOESNT MAKE SENSE. Maybe because people are so used to watching crazy anime shows where people are fighting each other while flying in mid air or while sprinting in a field.
I have not read far very yet, so forgive me if this has already been said.
I see this as the break between the "*I* am my character!" camp and the "My character is my character!" camp. Those that desire to micromanage every battle are the ones who like their own "manual dexterity skills" included in combat situations. Most of them cannot hit buttons fast enough to suit their need.
The other camp enjoys seeing how the character they took time building reacts in fighting situations. Many are content to just sit back back and basically watch, letting the points they put into their "dodge skill" take effect, not their own personal dexterity kicking in, maybe pushing a button here and there to execute a "special move" that they took time to give their character every now and again.
I am of the second camp The less influence my own mouse control has in a fight, the better I like it. I'm one of those players where my mouse will be looking at the ground or at the sky in any given 1 second span. When consoles got more than 4 buttons and 1 directional pad, I could not keep up. These are not good reasons, though, and make me sound like I am totally inept in action combat games. Not quite, but pretty close.
Another big reason is I can play "static" combat games for hours on end, or marathon sessions. Action combat games I can play for a couple of hours, tops. Then I am mentally and physically tired and need to log off. My own personal ability, or lack thereof, also factors in too much for me to be comfortable being "counted on" to do my part and leads to me not grouping as much as I would like.
In some aspects, I do like moving behind obstacles to avoid range damage, but when my mage casts a spell, I expect them to be concentrating on controlling the powerful forces they have access to, not rolling on the ground while casting. If my archer is moving while firing, I hope they don't find an unexpected rock to trip over. Oh wait, tripping is not a part of action combat games. No worries
As you pointed out, unlike FPS games where a character's head bobs as they move and they have penalties for moving while firing, MMO games just do not copy this style of play very well.
PS: I should also say that I view combat as most other players view leveling, a means to an end. I do not seek combat out just to fight, but rather fight when given a quest or get attacked to defend myself. Combat for me is not that important, though it has become a very major part of every MMO for the past few years.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Age of Conan had your rooted to the ground while you were performing your combo/spell animation but you were free to move and just swing your weapon or use certain insta-casts. Although that put melee classes at a disadvantage because by the time they'd finish their animation a caster would have ran away. It worked well for a time with the combo skipping "exploit" which made you skip a portion of your animation while maintaining the damage output. This made the combat a lot more dynamic but still rooted you to the ground for a short period of time. It was also balanced around it for a time, because a fix was nowhere in sight so it was still fair game to an extent.
The only modern example that I have played with this type of combat OP is referring to is GW2. The reason it feels unrealistic and as if you're just spamming all your attacks on the move is because all your attacks are unrealistic and usually centered around moving. For example the warrior with Greatsword. Most of his abilities are plausible while moving, such as his basic sword swing, throwing your weapon or charging (that locks you in animation anyway). The other skill 100blades makes you stand still for the duration of the animation but you would never see someone swinging their sword in front of them like a madman that is 2x bigger than them. Same goes for all the other classes, they have their simple abilities which can be cast on the run and powerful ones that need to be chanelled which I see no problem with. You can't shoot fireballs in real life and if games were modelled after real life we'd all be bored to death.
I know thing's like Mount & Blade, Chivalry and similar games have a more realistic approach to combat but they don't have to deal with having activated skills which all have specific animations nor do they have mages. The latency issues would be dreadful with this type of combat system in a full fledged mmo. Think of the hit registry since everything is based on such individual attack or block timing. In terms of MMO's the closest example I can think of that uses both of those mechanics is TESO but have you seen the combat? It's doesn't look very entertaining and quite clunky. We also don't know how laggy it will be when everyone gets to play it.
GunZ is probably the hardest game you can master, tried it years ago and was impressed how long it took me to do a few K style moves, i never got good. There were some crazy as people in the game, doing butterfly all over the place and shotgun hip shot and shit.
Comments
We are not asking for reality.
We simply want a combat system that makes sense. When i play Halo i don't question the fact that I can jump over vehicles 8 ft in the air because it makes sense to me that master chief is in a combat suit that amplifies his human abilities. This was explained to me. What is unexplainable is the type of combat the OP brought up...The infinite amount of jumping while shooting fireballs while kiting your opponent while running away while holding the enemy teams flag while...etc. This does not make sense to me.
so again, we don't want realism, we want things to make sense and be more engaging, something we can wrap our head around and immerse ourselves which allows us to strategically act and react to our environment and opponents with purpose. That is the bottom line, to act and react with purpose as opposed to aimlessly mashing buttons.
How can you wrap your head around 10 guys beating on one boss. Please explain that to me. I can not wrap my head around that at all.
It's nice in theory, but usually implemented poorly. I'm all for characters being able to make evasive rolls/dodges/hops or whatever, but holding down your strafe key and bunny hopping around a target is stupid and should not be a rewarding tactic.
If dodging is going to be a thing in a game, make the direction and timing of those moves really matter. If you roll yourself into an attack, it should still hit. Making the entire maneuver a period of invincibility like Guild Wars 2 did really sets the skill cap for a game to the lowest bar possible, and becomes a very unfulfilling chore. I also think those "don't stand here" red circles that are becoming way to common also remove a large part of the fun in a dodging system. Make monster attacks recognizable through actual experience and practice. Make dodges an actual attempt to get out of the way of an attack and put some distance.
I'm not as picky with regards to attacks rooting you in place or not. I prefer the root in place overall as it makes timing and positioning factors you need to consider before you make an attack, but better yet, i'd prefer to see skills that move your character a certain appropriate direction according to the skill. Vindictus and Tera did this well to some extent.
Players seem to have enough issues not standing in huge red circles that could have text pop up telling them to move.
I'm in agreement though.
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
I see this as the break between the "*I* am my character!" camp and the "My character is my character!" camp. Those that desire to micromanage every battle are the ones who like their own "manual dexterity skills" included in combat situations. Most of them cannot hit buttons fast enough to suit their need.
The other camp enjoys seeing how the character they took time building reacts in fighting situations. Many are content to just sit back back and basically watch, letting the points they put into their "dodge skill" take effect, not their own personal dexterity kicking in, maybe pushing a button here and there to execute a "special move" that they took time to give their character every now and again.
I am of the second camp
The less influence my own mouse control has in a fight, the better I like it. I'm one of those players where my mouse will be looking at the ground or at the sky in any given 1 second span. When consoles got more than 4 buttons and 1 directional pad, I could not keep up. These are not good reasons, though, and make me sound like I am totally inept in action combat games. Not quite, but pretty close.
Another big reason is I can play "static" combat games for hours on end, or marathon sessions. Action combat games I can play for a couple of hours, tops. Then I am mentally and physically tired and need to log off. My own personal ability, or lack thereof, also factors in too much for me to be comfortable being "counted on" to do my part and leads to me not grouping as much as I would like.
In some aspects, I do like moving behind obstacles to avoid range damage, but when my mage casts a spell, I expect them to be concentrating on controlling the powerful forces they have access to, not rolling on the ground while casting. If my archer is moving while firing, I hope they don't find an unexpected rock to trip over. Oh wait, tripping is not a part of action combat games. No worries
As you pointed out, unlike FPS games where a character's head bobs as they move and they have penalties for moving while firing, MMO games just do not copy this style of play very well.
PS: I should also say that I view combat as most other players view leveling, a means to an end. I do not seek combat out just to fight, but rather fight when given a quest or get attacked to defend myself. Combat for me is not that important, though it has become a very major part of every MMO for the past few years.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Yeah, that's quite a disappointment.
Ironically, whenever I hear "action combat", I think about Mount&Blade, because it's simply my best experience with such.
Now, these aren't the best players, but still... In my eyes, it's interesting, tactical and skill-based.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Y89GFt5Io
And this video... The one guy against those three players at 1 minute mark. Sadly that is TDM - worst gamemode ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZZnl09qBKM
We?re all dead, just say it.
Well good news, there are a lot more mmorpgs that don't have you move while attacking.
So you know, you can play one of those.
Age of Conan had your rooted to the ground while you were performing your combo/spell animation but you were free to move and just swing your weapon or use certain insta-casts. Although that put melee classes at a disadvantage because by the time they'd finish their animation a caster would have ran away. It worked well for a time with the combo skipping "exploit" which made you skip a portion of your animation while maintaining the damage output. This made the combat a lot more dynamic but still rooted you to the ground for a short period of time. It was also balanced around it for a time, because a fix was nowhere in sight so it was still fair game to an extent.
The only modern example that I have played with this type of combat OP is referring to is GW2. The reason it feels unrealistic and as if you're just spamming all your attacks on the move is because all your attacks are unrealistic and usually centered around moving. For example the warrior with Greatsword. Most of his abilities are plausible while moving, such as his basic sword swing, throwing your weapon or charging (that locks you in animation anyway). The other skill 100blades makes you stand still for the duration of the animation but you would never see someone swinging their sword in front of them like a madman that is 2x bigger than them. Same goes for all the other classes, they have their simple abilities which can be cast on the run and powerful ones that need to be chanelled which I see no problem with. You can't shoot fireballs in real life and if games were modelled after real life we'd all be bored to death.
I know thing's like Mount & Blade, Chivalry and similar games have a more realistic approach to combat but they don't have to deal with having activated skills which all have specific animations nor do they have mages. The latency issues would be dreadful with this type of combat system in a full fledged mmo. Think of the hit registry since everything is based on such individual attack or block timing. In terms of MMO's the closest example I can think of that uses both of those mechanics is TESO but have you seen the combat? It's doesn't look very entertaining and quite clunky. We also don't know how laggy it will be when everyone gets to play it.
Ironically, whenever I hear "action combat", I think about Mount&Blade, because it's simply my best experience with such.
Now, these aren't the best players, but still... In my eyes, it's interesting, tactical and skill-based.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Y89GFt5Io
And this video... The one guy against those three players at 1 minute mark. Sadly that is TDM - worst gamemode ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZZnl09qBKM
GunZ is probably the hardest game you can master, tried it years ago and was impressed how long it took me to do a few K style moves, i never got good. There were some crazy as people in the game, doing butterfly all over the place and shotgun hip shot and shit.