One thing that people seem to be missing is that we might not and probably won't know all the classes at launch.
When you pick a race, you would be rolling the dice hoping a particular class will be unlockable down the road. Not to mention ones they add later on.
With brand new lore and what seems to be much less focus on "good" "evil" I don't see them having racial restrictions. Maybe you can't work on paladin and shadow knight at the same time or can't use SK skills as a paladin, but I don't think hard restrictions will work.
40 classes seem to just be the 10 or so traditional ones split up into subclasses. Limiting access would just be limiting access to particular weapons and skills instead of limiting actual access to a whole fleshed out class.
For those going for "lore" as the backbone, which version do you choose from? D&D, EQ, EQ2, general common opinions on the matter? If you take a look at EQ's restrictions, most races would have a very small pool to choose from even with 40+, assuming there is an even amount of melee, caster, healer, support, etc. classes to choose from.
Then there is the whole "sandbox" idea and freedom. Maybe you can't start day one as an Wood Elf Necro or Ogre Mage, but it shouldn't be impossible.
SOE said that cookie cutter builds might well happen and they'll deal with it as and when it arises. Whenever you have customisation there will be those builds that are just simply better. Either the weight of certain mechanics is more useful or synergy in existing abilities is even more exaggerated with certain additional beneits.
Cookie cutter builds are not reliant on the number of choices, merely the varying results from those choices having different levels of output for any given task chosen. As systems become more complex they become more difficult to balance.
I'm not limiting my view on old games but merely on humanity. We find the most optimal result and run with it. We then pass it on and others begin using it (possibly not even knowing why beyond 'it's better'.
I have no idea why you brought up that anology - that speed and different fighting styles can overcome brute strength, which I assume is what you were trying to say when the benefit Ogres had was nothing to do with speed or strength it was a benefit they had that suited that role - stun immunity. In terms of EQNext if one race had a racial that was clearly better than all others in melee pvp which race do you believe would be the melee pvp choice?
Originally posted by McSire The people who voted for restrictions are clearly idiotic and are living in the past. I personally don't like being restricted, the more customization and the more ways for one to make themselves unique the better. Though if you look at option 4 and 2 and you combine them because they almost mean the same thing, it out votes the restrictions.
Fixed that for you. And if everyone can be anything than no one is unique.
It's not just me, it's the majority. Did you read the rest of the post?
It's not just me, it's the majority. Did you not see the Roundtable poll?
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
"I want to play any class with the race I choose, even if it means a penalty to some combinations"
because I think it is silly that some races can not be certain classes but on the other hand I still believe that certain races should still be better suited to some classes.
This actually makes the most sense to a degree. Outright blocking a race from a class seems silly, because a class is like a job to a degree, and people should be able to be trained regardless of background. However, at the same time, some people (or races in a game setting) are naturally more proficient at certain skill sets.
Someone else mentioned Conan the Thief, which he was. However, he was still big and headstrong, so he wasn't always exactly stealthy, not like his counterpart who was the better thief. Conan was a better swordsman though. So their skill sets combined allowed the two of them to overcome many obstacles, even though they were both thieves.
I voted that I didn't feel strongly either way. I tend to make alts for certain class types because I have a vision of that character in my head and my own little back story.
What I want them to avoid is X race for Y class or go home, because that gets to be too restrictive.
Originally posted by Allein One thing that people seem to be missing is that we might not and probably won't know all the classes at launch. When you pick a race, you would be rolling the dice hoping a particular class will be unlockable down the road. Not to mention ones they add later on. With brand new lore and what seems to be much less focus I "good" "evil" I don't see them having racial restrictions. Maybe you can't work on paladin and shadow knight at the same time or can't use SK skills as a paladin, but I don't think hard restrictions will work. 40 classes seem to just be the 10 or so traditional ones split up into subclasses. Limiting access would just be limiting access to particular weapons and skills instead of limiting actual access to a whole fleshed out class. I hope they make it challenging for an iksar to become a traditional "good" class, but not impossible.
Regardless of hidden classes. If it fits the lore I'm all with it. I would not be completely against allowing certain race class combos that are not considered racial norms. If they had penalties with them.
Maybe allowing them to get access to the class,however its harder to do so.. And maybe limiting their skill selection to how many of the skills the player could unlock and learn from the class.
This could even add more levels of depth overall to the game.
"Im all for a system that allows, for example, a non arcane inclined race like Halfling to eventually become Wizards after *substantial* work. Not like a lousy EQ2 betrayal quest, but a lengthy, time consuming, multi-month ordeal where you have to earn Solusek Ro's favor and work with him to get arcane attunement. So much work that when you saw one run by you would have to tell your guild "Holy shit! An Assling Wizard!"."
That line right there is the huge reason why I want restrictions. In everquest it was so epic when a paladin got a soulfire, and just the rarity of experiences in the game.
With restrictions on classes and race it allows for massive potential in immersion and quest story lines. Someone going through the difficult journey to become the disciple of Kithicor, The Great Ranger. And getting a unique Ranger set too add too the pool.
I want to be my usual Eyepatch wearing Monk, and go through some amazing journeys and adventures to compile druid and ranger like abilities to mesh with my great combat arts.
I dont just want to make a character of some wacky race that sucks at fighting, and go YES i got to mix and match all da abilities! That would trivialize and ruin this game.
Sounds crazy too me that the little ones are so adamant about 0 restrictions and Halfling Warrior wizards.... come on!
Restrictions = Immersion, and Potential for quest too unlock the greatness!
2 months to unlock a class, would be so epic.... almost like when we all did our Epic 1.0s.... on KUNARK release. Get with it EQ players ~
The problem with balancing with PVP first is everything ends up getting folded into a "min-max" template. Since most PVPers care less about lore or anything other than getting the edge, you end up with hordes of people using the same small set of skills. Imbalances get nerfed, then the next imbalance gets nerfed, you end up in a endless loop of FotM templates. Meanwhile, the boards are dominated by PVP balance discussion at the expense of everything else...
"Im all for a system that allows, for example, a non arcane inclined race like Halfling to eventually become Wizards after *substantial* work. Not like a lousy EQ2 betrayal quest, but a lengthy, time consuming, multi-month ordeal where you have to earn Solusek Ro's favor and work with him to get arcane attunement. So much work that when you saw one run by you would have to tell your guild "Holy shit! An Assling Wizard!"."
That line right there is the huge reason why I want restrictions. In everquest it was so epic when a paladin got a soulfire, and just the rarity of experiences in the game.
With restrictions on classes and race it allows for massive potential in immersion and quest story lines. Someone going through the difficult journey to become the disciple of Kithicor, The Great Ranger. And getting a unique Ranger set too add too the pool.
I want to be my usual Eyepatch wearing Monk, and go through some amazing journeys and adventures to compile druid and ranger like abilities to mesh with my great combat arts.
I dont just want to make a character of some wacky race that sucks at fighting, and go YES i got to mix and match all da abilities! That would trivialize and ruin this game.
Sounds crazy too me that the little ones are so adamant about 0 restrictions and Halfling Warrior wizards.... come on!
Restrictions = Immersion, and Potential for quest too unlock the greatness!
2 months to unlock a class, would be so epic.... almost like when we all did our Epic 1.0s.... on KUNARK release. Get with it EQ players ~
Sounds funny to me that some of those that are older can't get out of their old ways and try something new. Change is so scary!
I want no hard line restrictions and I was there at Kunark's release and before. I'm all for advantages/disadvantages for race/class combos, but think everything should be possible eventually (even if it takes 2 years to become an Iksar Paladin).
Personally I would like to see it be restricted based on lore, with about the equal amount of classes per race.
However I think it should be possible to unlock the remaining ones 1 by 1 by compleiting long and difficult quests similar to the original epic weapons in eq1.
Unlocking one or two of these should be something anyone could accomplish trough hard work.
However It should be next to impossible to unlock all classes on one character, to the point where only a handful of people would actually do it.
Also perhaps give players who manage to unlock all original classes on one char a unique title or apperance clothing.
Not only would this help immersion but I belive it would also increase the lifespan of the game as players would always have something to work toward, much like the epic in early eq and aa points later on.
Lore restrictions make sense from an RP standpoint. It would take extremely rare circumstances for a Troll to be a Wizard. So rare, that just allowing any player to make the character is an immersion breaker. Drizzt Do'urden was a cool character. It wasn't so cool when everyone started making Dark Elf Rangers.
The elephant in the room is balance. Consider you can attain four abilities fromany class, restricting classes could have unintended consequences on race/class balance. Ogres may be the worst Shadowknights because they don't have access to Necromancer abilities. Or perhaps Euradites will be terrible Shadowknights because they don't have access to warrior-like classes. Maybe Humans will roundly overpowered because they have access to both, ect..
One thing I don't particularly like to see is what happened in EQ. Where for the first 3 expansions or so: Ogres and Trolls were blatantly better warriors, Iksar (with the exception of necromancer) were terrible until Velious, and some races had hellishly difficult faction work to do for their epics.
Obviously it would be great if it was all balanced so that every race had equal advantages and disadvantages; so lore restriction could work perfectly. That however, is unrealistic. Most likely, lore will have to suffer in the name of balance.
So I was thinking and how about just having soft cap classes. For example an Ogre could be any class but to be a wizard you need 500 intelligence. Ogres have 500 strength, 200 agility, and 50 starting int. Let us pretend the Ogre race can only ever get to 450 int with the best gear and talents etc so Ogres will be soft capped out of being wizards and never meet the reqs. Having classes require certain stats and/or alignments would be ideal.
I voted for lore based class restrictions both on Ogre wizards, and Dark Elf Paladins. Picking your race should mean something.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
I voted for race/class restrictions on the round table. I don't want to limit races to 5 classes though; even in all of my arguments for race/class restrictions I am envisioning more like every race can access 30-36 different classes while a select few would be able to access all of them.
See, having no class restrictions creates the Cookie Cutter issue. Its the same issue that pops up when you take away racial abilities. No matter how small , all these things ( Class Restriction , Racial Abilities ) give a dash of immersion to the game. Take them away, and your back to cookie cutter.
And, whats the problem with cookie cutter races? Thats an easy one, if every race was the same and could be any class, then you loose Every reason to care about a race, other then just looks. And that takes a lot away from the whole reason we play MMORPGs in the first place. To immerse your self in a fantasy world.
To me having limits moves the game more towards a Themepark than a Sandbox.
In the real world, no matter where you live no matter where you come from you have the possibility to follow any profession. There no country that is innately incapable of producing a Bread maker or an Astrophycisist or a Game maker.
So this argument about immersion, and limits is really relative for me and immersion works both ways.
To me the world is more immersive if it reflects the dynamics of the reality of the real world I live in but within its fantasy setting.
Who is to say that an orphan Dark Elf was not raised by Humans and trained as A Paladin?
If you want you could have the game inform the player that such a combination is not traditional for the Dark Elves, and hey, the AI is new right? Why not have the AI react differently to a Dark Elf Paladin? Maybe in a negative way.
But at least the choice is up to the player to make and the opportunity for the player to create the Role Play profile of their character, and not the game taking the player by that hand and telling him what to do. That is the spirit of a Sandbox game anyways (and since EQN advertises itself as one).
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
To me having limits moves the game more towards a Themepark than a Sandbox.
In the real world, no matter where you live no matter where you come from you have the possibility to follow any profession. There no country that is innately incapable of producing a Bread maker or an Astrophycisist or a Game maker.
So this argument about immersion, and limits is really relative for me and immersion works both ways.
To me the world is more immersive if it reflects the dynamics of the reality of the real world I live in but within its fantasy setting.
Who is to say that an orphan Dark Elf was not raised by Humans and trained as A Paladin?
If you want you could have the game inform the player that such a combination is not traditional for the Dark Elves, and hey, the AI is new right? Why not have the AI react differently to a Dark Elf Paladin? Maybe in a negative way.
But at least the choice is up to the player to make and the opportunity for the player to create the Role Play profile of their character, and not the game taking the player by that hand and telling him what to do. That is the spirit of a Sandbox game anyways (and since EQN advertises itself as one).
If EQN only had the human race your silly "in the real world" arguement might have been slightly valid, but this is not the case.
Some of the races are bigger, some smaller, some smarter, some dumber, some agile, some not agile, some strong, some weak. They differ, as such it only makes sense that they would have specialize in diffrent things. (and while humans differ also, they don't differ to the same extent )
That said, Like I said before I would like all classes to be possible to gain trough hardwork, however that means those classes that don't fit the specific race should be extremly difficult to unlock, and unlocking all of them on 1 char should be something only a few people would do.
Unlocking each of the remaining classes should require weeks and weeks if not months of work per class.
To me having limits moves the game more towards a Themepark than a Sandbox.
In the real world, no matter where you live no matter where you come from you have the possibility to follow any profession. There no country that is innately incapable of producing a Bread maker or an Astrophycisist or a Game maker.
So this argument about immersion, and limits is really relative for me and immersion works both ways.
To me the world is more immersive if it reflects the dynamics of the reality of the real world I live in but within its fantasy setting.
Who is to say that an orphan Dark Elf was not raised by Humans and trained as A Paladin?
If you want you could have the game inform the player that such a combination is not traditional for the Dark Elves, and hey, the AI is new right? Why not have the AI react differently to a Dark Elf Paladin? Maybe in a negative way.
But at least the choice is up to the player to make and the opportunity for the player to create the Role Play profile of their character, and not the game taking the player by that hand and telling him what to do. That is the spirit of a Sandbox game anyways (and since EQN advertises itself as one).
If EQN only had the human race your silly "in the real world" arguement might have been slightly valid, but this is not the case.
Some of the races are bigger, some smaller, some smarter, some dumber, some agile, some not agile, some strong, some weak. They differ, as such it only makes sense that they would have specialize in diffrent things. (and while humans differ also, they don't differ to the same extent )
That said, Like I said before I would like all classes to be possible to gain trough hardwork, however that means those classes that don't fit the specific race should be extremly difficult to unlock, and unlocking all of them on 1 char should be something only a few people would do.
Unlocking each of the remaining classes should require weeks and weeks if not months of work per class.
Well in the real world you also have people that fit your descriptions. It does not stop them from choosing what profession they want to learn.
i think it is all possible, it is just a question of Changing the Lore to fit that reality so as to offer more role play possibilities and freedom to the player.
As for your silly vision, I am sorry I want to play a game and have fun, I do not want a new job for weeks and months...
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I'm getting a feeling that most of the people who voted for class restrictions are people who prefer to PVE. Like, you want to have that special ability that no other class has and it gives you a sense of purpose in the group/raid.
I'm more of a PVPer and would like to be as versatile as possible. If they do end up restricting classes based on lore, as long as they add an option where I can pay extra money to make my own class, I'll be fine :P
I'm not sure how strong that correlation would be considering I see a lot of comments about PvP being balanced. A limited combination of abilities per player would lend more to PvP I would think.
I voted no restrictions and I like PvE more. For one, it's different lore. The Combine army (of whom players will start out being I assume) has Elves, Humans, Ogres, Kerran, Dwarves and Gnomes (yes, Gnomes have been mentioned more than a few times in the ebook) fighting together. Plus, if the game remembers what you did and you can redeem yourself, why can't any race have the ability to be any class?
I could see certain races having a longer path to a class (such as an Iksar Paladin) but I don't think the path should be closed off. Deities are not class dependent anymore from what I've read and seen. It makes no sense in the scope of EQN from any aspect.
Edit: I realize that "following the lore" may be specificatlly for EQNl ore in which I can understand that. Hopefully they don't write the lore for EQN where the restrictions are there.
See, having no class restrictions creates the Cookie Cutter issue. Its the same issue that pops up when you take away racial abilities. No matter how small , all these things ( Class Restriction , Racial Abilities ) give a dash of immersion to the game. Take them away, and your back to cookie cutter.
And, whats the problem with cookie cutter races? Thats an easy one, if every race was the same and could be any class, then you loose Every reason to care about a race, other then just looks. And that takes a lot away from the whole reason we play MMORPGs in the first place. To immerse your self in a fantasy world.
I actually think it goes the other way, or rather you get people who roll dark elf mages not because of lore but because of number crunching on some forum. So you get people who don't care about race anyway but just care about numbers. In fact they probably care less about race than the person who rolls up a dark elf paladin (or seeks to earn it in game in this case) because that person took the time to decide what s/he wanted to play not based on numbers but on the type of character she wanted to be
Like I said twice before, I definatly belive all classes should have the ability to unlock the classes that don't fit they race, I don't think it should just be just longer path, it should be a considerably longer and more difficult path.
Unlocking one of these classes that don't fit your race should easily take several weeks or even months.
The fact that over 50% voted to have it locked does return some of my faith in the mmo community though, these round table polls might be more useful then I ever imagined if they actually listen to them. Even if they clearly left out a important option in this poll.
Like I said twice before, I definatly belive all classes should have the ability to unlock the classes that don't fit they race, I don't think it should just be just longer path, it should be a considerably longer and more difficult path.
Unlocking one of these classes that don't fit your race should easily take several weeks or even months.
Agreed. Like a hermit Paladin that allows you to do a good deed each day and has you come back "another time" maybe he travels here and there so you have to check.
I took it in a very general sense, and I voted in a way thinking that if small races wanted to have warrior builds, allow them, but they should do less damage with the warriors weapon sets due to lacking the physical build/strength of the larger races. I'm all for freedom of choice, but I'm also all about consequences for being silly and/or unique. That being said, if a game supports a DEX based warrior that is a bit less "loud" and destructive, I say let the smaller races partake but make their animations and moves fitting to a more precise and fluid fighting style. In another topic (same concept) If a player wants his weapon slot to look like he is holding a broom or a fish (Yes, some games allow this) he/she should do less damage than the guy who appears to be holding a sword. I don't expect everyone to share my feelings on this, but you asked, and thats why! Cheers.
Comments
One thing that people seem to be missing is that we might not and probably won't know all the classes at launch.
When you pick a race, you would be rolling the dice hoping a particular class will be unlockable down the road. Not to mention ones they add later on.
With brand new lore and what seems to be much less focus on "good" "evil" I don't see them having racial restrictions. Maybe you can't work on paladin and shadow knight at the same time or can't use SK skills as a paladin, but I don't think hard restrictions will work.
40 classes seem to just be the 10 or so traditional ones split up into subclasses. Limiting access would just be limiting access to particular weapons and skills instead of limiting actual access to a whole fleshed out class.
For those going for "lore" as the backbone, which version do you choose from? D&D, EQ, EQ2, general common opinions on the matter? If you take a look at EQ's restrictions, most races would have a very small pool to choose from even with 40+, assuming there is an even amount of melee, caster, healer, support, etc. classes to choose from.
Then there is the whole "sandbox" idea and freedom. Maybe you can't start day one as an Wood Elf Necro or Ogre Mage, but it shouldn't be impossible.
@Post #18
SOE said that cookie cutter builds might well happen and they'll deal with it as and when it arises. Whenever you have customisation there will be those builds that are just simply better. Either the weight of certain mechanics is more useful or synergy in existing abilities is even more exaggerated with certain additional beneits.
Cookie cutter builds are not reliant on the number of choices, merely the varying results from those choices having different levels of output for any given task chosen. As systems become more complex they become more difficult to balance.
I'm not limiting my view on old games but merely on humanity. We find the most optimal result and run with it. We then pass it on and others begin using it (possibly not even knowing why beyond 'it's better'.
I have no idea why you brought up that anology - that speed and different fighting styles can overcome brute strength, which I assume is what you were trying to say when the benefit Ogres had was nothing to do with speed or strength it was a benefit they had that suited that role - stun immunity. In terms of EQNext if one race had a racial that was clearly better than all others in melee pvp which race do you believe would be the melee pvp choice?
It's not just me, it's the majority. Did you not see the Roundtable poll?
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
This actually makes the most sense to a degree. Outright blocking a race from a class seems silly, because a class is like a job to a degree, and people should be able to be trained regardless of background. However, at the same time, some people (or races in a game setting) are naturally more proficient at certain skill sets.
Someone else mentioned Conan the Thief, which he was. However, he was still big and headstrong, so he wasn't always exactly stealthy, not like his counterpart who was the better thief. Conan was a better swordsman though. So their skill sets combined allowed the two of them to overcome many obstacles, even though they were both thieves.
I voted that I didn't feel strongly either way. I tend to make alts for certain class types because I have a vision of that character in my head and my own little back story.
What I want them to avoid is X race for Y class or go home, because that gets to be too restrictive.
Regardless of hidden classes. If it fits the lore I'm all with it. I would not be completely against allowing certain race class combos that are not considered racial norms. If they had penalties with them.
Maybe allowing them to get access to the class,however its harder to do so.. And maybe limiting their skill selection to how many of the skills the player could unlock and learn from the class.
This could even add more levels of depth overall to the game.
I know ogres couldn't be clerics was just making a point
if they have lore restrictions like eq1 along with the obvious good and evil choices some people will have a few alts
don't matter to me any way they do it i'll be playing it
"Im all for a system that allows, for example, a non arcane inclined race like Halfling to eventually become Wizards after *substantial* work. Not like a lousy EQ2 betrayal quest, but a lengthy, time consuming, multi-month ordeal where you have to earn Solusek Ro's favor and work with him to get arcane attunement. So much work that when you saw one run by you would have to tell your guild "Holy shit! An Assling Wizard!"."
That line right there is the huge reason why I want restrictions. In everquest it was so epic when a paladin got a soulfire, and just the rarity of experiences in the game.
With restrictions on classes and race it allows for massive potential in immersion and quest story lines. Someone going through the difficult journey to become the disciple of Kithicor, The Great Ranger. And getting a unique Ranger set too add too the pool.
I want to be my usual Eyepatch wearing Monk, and go through some amazing journeys and adventures to compile druid and ranger like abilities to mesh with my great combat arts.
I dont just want to make a character of some wacky race that sucks at fighting, and go YES i got to mix and match all da abilities! That would trivialize and ruin this game.
Sounds crazy too me that the little ones are so adamant about 0 restrictions and Halfling Warrior wizards.... come on!
Restrictions = Immersion, and Potential for quest too unlock the greatness!
2 months to unlock a class, would be so epic.... almost like when we all did our Epic 1.0s.... on KUNARK release. Get with it EQ players ~
I would rather have them design with PVE in mind.
The problem with balancing with PVP first is everything ends up getting folded into a "min-max" template. Since most PVPers care less about lore or anything other than getting the edge, you end up with hordes of people using the same small set of skills. Imbalances get nerfed, then the next imbalance gets nerfed, you end up in a endless loop of FotM templates. Meanwhile, the boards are dominated by PVP balance discussion at the expense of everything else...
Sounds funny to me that some of those that are older can't get out of their old ways and try something new. Change is so scary!
I want no hard line restrictions and I was there at Kunark's release and before. I'm all for advantages/disadvantages for race/class combos, but think everything should be possible eventually (even if it takes 2 years to become an Iksar Paladin).
Personally I would like to see it be restricted based on lore, with about the equal amount of classes per race.
However I think it should be possible to unlock the remaining ones 1 by 1 by compleiting long and difficult quests similar to the original epic weapons in eq1.
Unlocking one or two of these should be something anyone could accomplish trough hard work.
However It should be next to impossible to unlock all classes on one character, to the point where only a handful of people would actually do it.
Also perhaps give players who manage to unlock all original classes on one char a unique title or apperance clothing.
Not only would this help immersion but I belive it would also increase the lifespan of the game as players would always have something to work toward, much like the epic in early eq and aa points later on.
Lore restrictions make sense from an RP standpoint. It would take extremely rare circumstances for a Troll to be a Wizard. So rare, that just allowing any player to make the character is an immersion breaker. Drizzt Do'urden was a cool character. It wasn't so cool when everyone started making Dark Elf Rangers.
The elephant in the room is balance. Consider you can attain four abilities from any class, restricting classes could have unintended consequences on race/class balance. Ogres may be the worst Shadowknights because they don't have access to Necromancer abilities. Or perhaps Euradites will be terrible Shadowknights because they don't have access to warrior-like classes. Maybe Humans will roundly overpowered because they have access to both, ect..
One thing I don't particularly like to see is what happened in EQ. Where for the first 3 expansions or so: Ogres and Trolls were blatantly better warriors, Iksar (with the exception of necromancer) were terrible until Velious, and some races had hellishly difficult faction work to do for their epics.
Obviously it would be great if it was all balanced so that every race had equal advantages and disadvantages; so lore restriction could work perfectly. That however, is unrealistic. Most likely, lore will have to suffer in the name of balance.
So I was thinking and how about just having soft cap classes. For example an Ogre could be any class but to be a wizard you need 500 intelligence. Ogres have 500 strength, 200 agility, and 50 starting int. Let us pretend the Ogre race can only ever get to 450 int with the best gear and talents etc so Ogres will be soft capped out of being wizards and never meet the reqs. Having classes require certain stats and/or alignments would be ideal.
I voted for lore based class restrictions both on Ogre wizards, and Dark Elf Paladins. Picking your race should mean something.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I voted for race/class restrictions on the round table. I don't want to limit races to 5 classes though; even in all of my arguments for race/class restrictions I am envisioning more like every race can access 30-36 different classes while a select few would be able to access all of them.
When people (and the poll) speak of "lore" is that general lore, EQ lore, or EQN lore?
They are redoing the lore for EQN, couldn't they not include racial restrictions? Or would everyone still assume everything?
How do they explain multi-classing in the lore? How can a dark elf warrior instantly change into a cleric or necro, but not a bard?
Lore is great and all and gives us a story to be a part of, but some of the game mechanics don't seem to fit too well in a strict system.
I completely agree.
I don't know.
To me having limits moves the game more towards a Themepark than a Sandbox.
In the real world, no matter where you live no matter where you come from you have the possibility to follow any profession. There no country that is innately incapable of producing a Bread maker or an Astrophycisist or a Game maker.
So this argument about immersion, and limits is really relative for me and immersion works both ways.
To me the world is more immersive if it reflects the dynamics of the reality of the real world I live in but within its fantasy setting.
Who is to say that an orphan Dark Elf was not raised by Humans and trained as A Paladin?
If you want you could have the game inform the player that such a combination is not traditional for the Dark Elves, and hey, the AI is new right? Why not have the AI react differently to a Dark Elf Paladin? Maybe in a negative way.
But at least the choice is up to the player to make and the opportunity for the player to create the Role Play profile of their character, and not the game taking the player by that hand and telling him what to do. That is the spirit of a Sandbox game anyways (and since EQN advertises itself as one).
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
If EQN only had the human race your silly "in the real world" arguement might have been slightly valid, but this is not the case.
Some of the races are bigger, some smaller, some smarter, some dumber, some agile, some not agile, some strong, some weak. They differ, as such it only makes sense that they would have specialize in diffrent things. (and while humans differ also, they don't differ to the same extent )
That said, Like I said before I would like all classes to be possible to gain trough hardwork, however that means those classes that don't fit the specific race should be extremly difficult to unlock, and unlocking all of them on 1 char should be something only a few people would do.
Unlocking each of the remaining classes should require weeks and weeks if not months of work per class.
Well in the real world you also have people that fit your descriptions. It does not stop them from choosing what profession they want to learn.
i think it is all possible, it is just a question of Changing the Lore to fit that reality so as to offer more role play possibilities and freedom to the player.
As for your silly vision, I am sorry I want to play a game and have fun, I do not want a new job for weeks and months...
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I belive I clearly said humans also differ, but not nearly to the same extent.
But actually it does, you don't think someone who is 2meters tall vs half a meter tall have restrictions to what they can work as?
or someone who weights 300kg vs someone who weights 50kg?
or someone with a iq of 80 vs a iq of 150?
Fantasy races take the diffrences to a extreme, so it really dosn't make sense for them to all have the same choices.
I'm not sure how strong that correlation would be considering I see a lot of comments about PvP being balanced. A limited combination of abilities per player would lend more to PvP I would think.
I voted no restrictions and I like PvE more. For one, it's different lore. The Combine army (of whom players will start out being I assume) has Elves, Humans, Ogres, Kerran, Dwarves and Gnomes (yes, Gnomes have been mentioned more than a few times in the ebook) fighting together. Plus, if the game remembers what you did and you can redeem yourself, why can't any race have the ability to be any class?
I could see certain races having a longer path to a class (such as an Iksar Paladin) but I don't think the path should be closed off. Deities are not class dependent anymore from what I've read and seen. It makes no sense in the scope of EQN from any aspect.
Edit: I realize that "following the lore" may be specificatlly for EQNl ore in which I can understand that. Hopefully they don't write the lore for EQN where the restrictions are there.
I actually think it goes the other way, or rather you get people who roll dark elf mages not because of lore but because of number crunching on some forum. So you get people who don't care about race anyway but just care about numbers. In fact they probably care less about race than the person who rolls up a dark elf paladin (or seeks to earn it in game in this case) because that person took the time to decide what s/he wanted to play not based on numbers but on the type of character she wanted to be
a crazy dark elf.
Like I said twice before, I definatly belive all classes should have the ability to unlock the classes that don't fit they race, I don't think it should just be just longer path, it should be a considerably longer and more difficult path.
Unlocking one of these classes that don't fit your race should easily take several weeks or even months.
The fact that over 50% voted to have it locked does return some of my faith in the mmo community though, these round table polls might be more useful then I ever imagined if they actually listen to them. Even if they clearly left out a important option in this poll.
Agreed. Like a hermit Paladin that allows you to do a good deed each day and has you come back "another time" maybe he travels here and there so you have to check.
I took it in a very general sense, and I voted in a way thinking that if small races wanted to have warrior builds, allow them, but they should do less damage with the warriors weapon sets due to lacking the physical build/strength of the larger races. I'm all for freedom of choice, but I'm also all about consequences for being silly and/or unique. That being said, if a game supports a DEX based warrior that is a bit less "loud" and destructive, I say let the smaller races partake but make their animations and moves fitting to a more precise and fluid fighting style. In another topic (same concept) If a player wants his weapon slot to look like he is holding a broom or a fish (Yes, some games allow this) he/she should do less damage than the guy who appears to be holding a sword. I don't expect everyone to share my feelings on this, but you asked, and thats why! Cheers.