Not true, you can still tank using the terrain and spells like the crystal wall to bottle neck what you are fighting and keep the mobs from running past the tanking player or players.
That actually makes a bit more of a concrete picture in my head on how the fights may play out using existing game combat, which he must be close due to the SmokeJumper comment.
Lol I am fine with more intelligent AI, as long as they aren't so intelligent that they begin kiting and LOS'ing "pillar humping" to avoid damage lol.
I sorta think it be cool to have, at maximum, in combat healing using a small HoT and give support classes an out of combat burst heal...bet it would become wayyyyy more tense combat when you can't rely on that burst heal every few seconds lol.
Originally posted by kruss11 Advanced AI is having mobs choose random targets... sounds so advanced. Holy trinity is heals/tanks/dps not ENCHANTER some random enc probably made that up. Its the 3 things you need to kill stuff, everything else is fluff. EQN class system is so WACK it doesn't matter how advanced and AI is. Theres nothing else an AI can do besides attack a healer after a while and not focus on the tank. Which is completely annoying for a tank and makes them useless. You want to run around knocking things back that are on ppl, sounds not fun. I want to ENGAGE the enemy not run around knocking things back.
The term "Holy Trinity" was coined by EQ players and referred to a warrior (a class that could reduce damage taken by 40% for a set amount of time, making them the only player class that could tank certain content) the cleric (the class with the fastest and the most powerful heals) and the enchanter (the class that could "mezmorize" monsters to stun them for up to 2 minutes, so that the warrior and cleric and DPS could kill one target at a time, and slow the main target's attacks so that the cleric did not run out of healing). There was content in Everquest that basically could only be handled if you had these three classes in your group. That's where the term came from. Want to do X camp? Do you have a cleric, warrior and enchanter already? Ok sign me up.
World of Warcraft did not have a class dedicated solely to crowd control, and the term over the years got changed to the "Trinity" meaning three archetypes, tanking, healing and damage.
So, whenever you see "Holy Trinity" - it is an EQ term, and includes the enchanter class. The other three group members (EQ groups had 6 people), were expected to do DPS, a 4th archetype.
What are you smoking? The holy trinity is the same as the trinity. It is the DPS Tank and Healer. Whether or not it had some slightly different meaning in the past is irrelevant.
EQN devs said that tanking won't be the slightest bit effective in EQN.
Tanking in the form you mean yes, but "tanking" will still be possible. A class that can stun-snare-knock back-unarm etc etc an enemy is "tanking". Are they spamming taunt, no, they are actually having to work for it. Taunt defining a tank is a fairly shallow system.
Who in the hell said Taunt? In what shit game is tanking spamming taunt?
You can't be a tank in EQN, sorry, cant be done. You can be an annoyance, but what is the point in being defensive? Hey, that gives me a good idea. The new title of this role will be pest.
"Please explain to me how a non trinity AI proliferates role structure. In other words, describe an AI that produces challenging game play that is neither a zerg or a trinity.
If you cant do that, then I think we are done here."
UO, Asheron's Call, Puzzle Pirates, EVE Online.
Each one has dedicated roles and none of them use the trinity. This has been brought up many times before. Catch up.
I'll add Guild Wars to that. The game came out 7 years ago, has no trinity, and an AI smart enough to work without a zerg. In fact a good team can shut down and roll a zerg any day of the week because a zergball isn't working together. They are just steamrolling, but if you shutdown that momentum they're lost and disorganized. They can't react fast to tactics.
The former CM for Guild Wars, Gaile Gray, once said something to the effect that they could tune up the AI so tight players could never work their way past it. She didn't mean bumping up health, defense, or offense, she meant the tactics and decision making they use. She pointed out that balance is trickier than it sounds because players want to feel like they're challenged, but they want to win a majority of the time. Since players think of clever unexpected strategies it's hard to know where lies the line between overtuned and frustrating, comfortable illusion of challenge, and faceroll easy.
I think the reason "holy trinity" (tank with snap aggro/taunts) became so popular with designers is because it pretty much makes the need for control trivial. Control with all the myriad types (snare, stun, daze, knockback, fear, etc) is a lot more complicated to deal with and balance, from a design view, than simple snap aggro tactics. So for dungeons and raids they design around holy trinity because it's easy. Control is mostly useless in these areas, but works well in overland public areas where smaller parties might face larger groups of mobs. It's just cheap lazy design in my opinion.
The holy trinity only refers to PvE. Why is this hard to grasp?
Bad games without a trinity do not suffice as examples of a good non-trinity system.
Originally posted by kruss11 Advanced AI is having mobs choose random targets... sounds so advanced. Holy trinity is heals/tanks/dps not ENCHANTER some random enc probably made that up. Its the 3 things you need to kill stuff, everything else is fluff. EQN class system is so WACK it doesn't matter how advanced and AI is. Theres nothing else an AI can do besides attack a healer after a while and not focus on the tank. Which is completely annoying for a tank and makes them useless. You want to run around knocking things back that are on ppl, sounds not fun. I want to ENGAGE the enemy not run around knocking things back.
The term "Holy Trinity" was coined by EQ players and referred to a warrior (a class that could reduce damage taken by 40% for a set amount of time, making them the only player class that could tank certain content) the cleric (the class with the fastest and the most powerful heals) and the enchanter (the class that could "mezmorize" monsters to stun them for up to 2 minutes, so that the warrior and cleric and DPS could kill one target at a time, and slow the main target's attacks so that the cleric did not run out of healing). There was content in Everquest that basically could only be handled if you had these three classes in your group. That's where the term came from. Want to do X camp? Do you have a cleric, warrior and enchanter already? Ok sign me up.
World of Warcraft did not have a class dedicated solely to crowd control, and the term over the years got changed to the "Trinity" meaning three archetypes, tanking, healing and damage.
So, whenever you see "Holy Trinity" - it is an EQ term, and includes the enchanter class. The other three group members (EQ groups had 6 people), were expected to do DPS, a 4th archetype.
What are you smoking? The holy trinity is the same as the trinity. It is the DPS Tank and Healer. Whether or not it had some slightly different meaning in the past is irrelevant.
EQN devs said that tanking won't be the slightest bit effective in EQN.
Tanking in the form you mean yes, but "tanking" will still be possible. A class that can stun-snare-knock back-unarm etc etc an enemy is "tanking". Are they spamming taunt, no, they are actually having to work for it. Taunt defining a tank is a fairly shallow system.
Who in the hell said Taunt? In what shit game is tanking spamming taunt?
You can't be a tank in EQN, sorry, cant be done. You can be an annoyance, but what is the point in being defensive? Hey, that gives me a good idea. The new title of this role will be pest.
Now your just being stubborn, it can done but it will work differently then in the old mmos, tanking will be more fluid and more reactive to whats going on and it will still require the help of the party too keep mobs contained.
Originally posted by kruss11 Advanced AI is having mobs choose random targets... sounds so advanced. Holy trinity is heals/tanks/dps not ENCHANTER some random enc probably made that up. Its the 3 things you need to kill stuff, everything else is fluff. EQN class system is so WACK it doesn't matter how advanced and AI is. Theres nothing else an AI can do besides attack a healer after a while and not focus on the tank. Which is completely annoying for a tank and makes them useless. You want to run around knocking things back that are on ppl, sounds not fun. I want to ENGAGE the enemy not run around knocking things back.
The term "Holy Trinity" was coined by EQ players and referred to a warrior (a class that could reduce damage taken by 40% for a set amount of time, making them the only player class that could tank certain content) the cleric (the class with the fastest and the most powerful heals) and the enchanter (the class that could "mezmorize" monsters to stun them for up to 2 minutes, so that the warrior and cleric and DPS could kill one target at a time, and slow the main target's attacks so that the cleric did not run out of healing). There was content in Everquest that basically could only be handled if you had these three classes in your group. That's where the term came from. Want to do X camp? Do you have a cleric, warrior and enchanter already? Ok sign me up.
World of Warcraft did not have a class dedicated solely to crowd control, and the term over the years got changed to the "Trinity" meaning three archetypes, tanking, healing and damage.
So, whenever you see "Holy Trinity" - it is an EQ term, and includes the enchanter class. The other three group members (EQ groups had 6 people), were expected to do DPS, a 4th archetype.
What are you smoking? The holy trinity is the same as the trinity. It is the DPS Tank and Healer. Whether or not it had some slightly different meaning in the past is irrelevant.
EQN devs said that tanking won't be the slightest bit effective in EQN.
Tanking in the form you mean yes, but "tanking" will still be possible. A class that can stun-snare-knock back-unarm etc etc an enemy is "tanking". Are they spamming taunt, no, they are actually having to work for it. Taunt defining a tank is a fairly shallow system.
Who in the hell said Taunt? In what shit game is tanking spamming taunt?
You can't be a tank in EQN, sorry, cant be done. You can be an annoyance, but what is the point in being defensive? Hey, that gives me a good idea. The new title of this role will be pest.
Now your just being stubborn, it can done but it will work differently then in the old mmos, tanking will be more fluid and more reactive to whats going on and it will still require the help of the party too keep mobs contained.
A tank is defined as someone who soaks up damage, so the rest of the party doesn't have to.
The only way that appears to be possible is if you can form an artificial choke point.
I ran around and did all those things you are talking about in other games with threat based tanking. Stun, knockback, silence, disarm, etc.. are all tools used in the tanks repertoire.
Originally posted by kruss11 Advanced AI is having mobs choose random targets... sounds so advanced. Holy trinity is heals/tanks/dps not ENCHANTER some random enc probably made that up. Its the 3 things you need to kill stuff, everything else is fluff. EQN class system is so WACK it doesn't matter how advanced and AI is. Theres nothing else an AI can do besides attack a healer after a while and not focus on the tank. Which is completely annoying for a tank and makes them useless. You want to run around knocking things back that are on ppl, sounds not fun. I want to ENGAGE the enemy not run around knocking things back.
The term "Holy Trinity" was coined by EQ players and referred to a warrior (a class that could reduce damage taken by 40% for a set amount of time, making them the only player class that could tank certain content) the cleric (the class with the fastest and the most powerful heals) and the enchanter (the class that could "mezmorize" monsters to stun them for up to 2 minutes, so that the warrior and cleric and DPS could kill one target at a time, and slow the main target's attacks so that the cleric did not run out of healing). There was content in Everquest that basically could only be handled if you had these three classes in your group. That's where the term came from. Want to do X camp? Do you have a cleric, warrior and enchanter already? Ok sign me up.
World of Warcraft did not have a class dedicated solely to crowd control, and the term over the years got changed to the "Trinity" meaning three archetypes, tanking, healing and damage.
So, whenever you see "Holy Trinity" - it is an EQ term, and includes the enchanter class. The other three group members (EQ groups had 6 people), were expected to do DPS, a 4th archetype.
What are you smoking? The holy trinity is the same as the trinity. It is the DPS Tank and Healer. Whether or not it had some slightly different meaning in the past is irrelevant.
EQN devs said that tanking won't be the slightest bit effective in EQN.
Tanking in the form you mean yes, but "tanking" will still be possible. A class that can stun-snare-knock back-unarm etc etc an enemy is "tanking". Are they spamming taunt, no, they are actually having to work for it. Taunt defining a tank is a fairly shallow system.
Who in the hell said Taunt? In what shit game is tanking spamming taunt?
You can't be a tank in EQN, sorry, cant be done. You can be an annoyance, but what is the point in being defensive? Hey, that gives me a good idea. The new title of this role will be pest.
Now your just being stubborn, it can done but it will work differently then in the old mmos, tanking will be more fluid and more reactive to whats going on and it will still require the help of the party too keep mobs contained.
A tank is defined as someone who soaks up damage, so the rest of the party doesn't have to.
The only way that appears to be possible is if you can form an artificial choke point.
I ran around and did all those things you are talking about in other games with threat based tanking. Stun, knockback, silence, disarm, etc.. are all tools used in the tanks repertoire.
Now we back on the topic being talk about, with smart A.I and action combat a threat system will not work for it. They want mobs to try to flank your position or even run away and get more help, a magic button the that turns all mobs attention on the tank and nothing else is what they don't want. Terrain with many layers that you can destroy is perfect for creating choke points and will require some thinking in the group on how to do it.
Originally posted by kruss11 Advanced AI is having mobs choose random targets... sounds so advanced. Holy trinity is heals/tanks/dps not ENCHANTER some random enc probably made that up. Its the 3 things you need to kill stuff, everything else is fluff. EQN class system is so WACK it doesn't matter how advanced and AI is. Theres nothing else an AI can do besides attack a healer after a while and not focus on the tank. Which is completely annoying for a tank and makes them useless. You want to run around knocking things back that are on ppl, sounds not fun. I want to ENGAGE the enemy not run around knocking things back.
The term "Holy Trinity" was coined by EQ players and referred to a warrior (a class that could reduce damage taken by 40% for a set amount of time, making them the only player class that could tank certain content) the cleric (the class with the fastest and the most powerful heals) and the enchanter (the class that could "mezmorize" monsters to stun them for up to 2 minutes, so that the warrior and cleric and DPS could kill one target at a time, and slow the main target's attacks so that the cleric did not run out of healing). There was content in Everquest that basically could only be handled if you had these three classes in your group. That's where the term came from. Want to do X camp? Do you have a cleric, warrior and enchanter already? Ok sign me up.
World of Warcraft did not have a class dedicated solely to crowd control, and the term over the years got changed to the "Trinity" meaning three archetypes, tanking, healing and damage.
So, whenever you see "Holy Trinity" - it is an EQ term, and includes the enchanter class. The other three group members (EQ groups had 6 people), were expected to do DPS, a 4th archetype.
What are you smoking? The holy trinity is the same as the trinity. It is the DPS Tank and Healer. Whether or not it had some slightly different meaning in the past is irrelevant.
EQN devs said that tanking won't be the slightest bit effective in EQN.
Tanking in the form you mean yes, but "tanking" will still be possible. A class that can stun-snare-knock back-unarm etc etc an enemy is "tanking". Are they spamming taunt, no, they are actually having to work for it. Taunt defining a tank is a fairly shallow system.
Who in the hell said Taunt? In what shit game is tanking spamming taunt?
You can't be a tank in EQN, sorry, cant be done. You can be an annoyance, but what is the point in being defensive? Hey, that gives me a good idea. The new title of this role will be pest.
Now your just being stubborn, it can done but it will work differently then in the old mmos, tanking will be more fluid and more reactive to whats going on and it will still require the help of the party too keep mobs contained.
A tank is defined as someone who soaks up damage, so the rest of the party doesn't have to.
The only way that appears to be possible is if you can form an artificial choke point.
I ran around and did all those things you are talking about in other games with threat based tanking. Stun, knockback, silence, disarm, etc.. are all tools used in the tanks repertoire.
Now we back on the topic being talk about, with smart A.I and action combat a threat system will not work for it. They want mobs to try to flank your position or even run away and get more help, a magic button the that turns all mobs attention on the tank and nothing else is what they don't want. Terrain with many layers that you can destroy is perfect for creating choke points and will require some thinking in the group on how to do it.
Why do you guys keep repeating that bullshit taunt line over and over. It is completely false!
Tanking via choke point will not be common. That is just a hail marry pass a dev thought up to reassure you that tanking is possible.
Originally posted by kruss11 Advanced AI is having mobs choose random targets... sounds so advanced. Holy trinity is heals/tanks/dps not ENCHANTER some random enc probably made that up. Its the 3 things you need to kill stuff, everything else is fluff. EQN class system is so WACK it doesn't matter how advanced and AI is. Theres nothing else an AI can do besides attack a healer after a while and not focus on the tank. Which is completely annoying for a tank and makes them useless. You want to run around knocking things back that are on ppl, sounds not fun. I want to ENGAGE the enemy not run around knocking things back.
The term "Holy Trinity" was coined by EQ players and referred to a warrior (a class that could reduce damage taken by 40% for a set amount of time, making them the only player class that could tank certain content) the cleric (the class with the fastest and the most powerful heals) and the enchanter (the class that could "mezmorize" monsters to stun them for up to 2 minutes, so that the warrior and cleric and DPS could kill one target at a time, and slow the main target's attacks so that the cleric did not run out of healing). There was content in Everquest that basically could only be handled if you had these three classes in your group. That's where the term came from. Want to do X camp? Do you have a cleric, warrior and enchanter already? Ok sign me up.
World of Warcraft did not have a class dedicated solely to crowd control, and the term over the years got changed to the "Trinity" meaning three archetypes, tanking, healing and damage.
So, whenever you see "Holy Trinity" - it is an EQ term, and includes the enchanter class. The other three group members (EQ groups had 6 people), were expected to do DPS, a 4th archetype.
What are you smoking? The holy trinity is the same as the trinity. It is the DPS Tank and Healer. Whether or not it had some slightly different meaning in the past is irrelevant.
EQN devs said that tanking won't be the slightest bit effective in EQN.
Tanking in the form you mean yes, but "tanking" will still be possible. A class that can stun-snare-knock back-unarm etc etc an enemy is "tanking". Are they spamming taunt, no, they are actually having to work for it. Taunt defining a tank is a fairly shallow system.
Who in the hell said Taunt? In what shit game is tanking spamming taunt?
You can't be a tank in EQN, sorry, cant be done. You can be an annoyance, but what is the point in being defensive? Hey, that gives me a good idea. The new title of this role will be pest.
Now your just being stubborn, it can done but it will work differently then in the old mmos, tanking will be more fluid and more reactive to whats going on and it will still require the help of the party too keep mobs contained.
A tank is defined as someone who soaks up damage, so the rest of the party doesn't have to.
The only way that appears to be possible is if you can form an artificial choke point.
I ran around and did all those things you are talking about in other games with threat based tanking. Stun, knockback, silence, disarm, etc.. are all tools used in the tanks repertoire.
Now we back on the topic being talk about, with smart A.I and action combat a threat system will not work for it. They want mobs to try to flank your position or even run away and get more help, a magic button the that turns all mobs attention on the tank and nothing else is what they don't want. Terrain with many layers that you can destroy is perfect for creating choke points and will require some thinking in the group on how to do it.
Why do you guys keep repeating that bullshit taunt line over and over. It is completely false!
Tanking via choke point will not be common. That is just a hail marry pass a dev thought up to reassure you that tanking is possible.
Yes it will and I am sure most parties will want a wall of steel blocking those choke points. You think range will have a easy time in the lower tiers of terrain with enclosed areas and narrow passageways with out a plate wearer blocking the way?
Originally posted by kruss11 Advanced AI is having mobs choose random targets... sounds so advanced. Holy trinity is heals/tanks/dps not ENCHANTER some random enc probably made that up. Its the 3 things you need to kill stuff, everything else is fluff. EQN class system is so WACK it doesn't matter how advanced and AI is. Theres nothing else an AI can do besides attack a healer after a while and not focus on the tank. Which is completely annoying for a tank and makes them useless. You want to run around knocking things back that are on ppl, sounds not fun. I want to ENGAGE the enemy not run around knocking things back.
The term "Holy Trinity" was coined by EQ players and referred to a warrior (a class that could reduce damage taken by 40% for a set amount of time, making them the only player class that could tank certain content) the cleric (the class with the fastest and the most powerful heals) and the enchanter (the class that could "mezmorize" monsters to stun them for up to 2 minutes, so that the warrior and cleric and DPS could kill one target at a time, and slow the main target's attacks so that the cleric did not run out of healing). There was content in Everquest that basically could only be handled if you had these three classes in your group. That's where the term came from. Want to do X camp? Do you have a cleric, warrior and enchanter already? Ok sign me up.
World of Warcraft did not have a class dedicated solely to crowd control, and the term over the years got changed to the "Trinity" meaning three archetypes, tanking, healing and damage.
So, whenever you see "Holy Trinity" - it is an EQ term, and includes the enchanter class. The other three group members (EQ groups had 6 people), were expected to do DPS, a 4th archetype.
What are you smoking? The holy trinity is the same as the trinity. It is the DPS Tank and Healer. Whether or not it had some slightly different meaning in the past is irrelevant.
EQN devs said that tanking won't be the slightest bit effective in EQN.
Tanking in the form you mean yes, but "tanking" will still be possible. A class that can stun-snare-knock back-unarm etc etc an enemy is "tanking". Are they spamming taunt, no, they are actually having to work for it. Taunt defining a tank is a fairly shallow system.
Who in the hell said Taunt? In what shit game is tanking spamming taunt?
You can't be a tank in EQN, sorry, cant be done. You can be an annoyance, but what is the point in being defensive? Hey, that gives me a good idea. The new title of this role will be pest.
Now your just being stubborn, it can done but it will work differently then in the old mmos, tanking will be more fluid and more reactive to whats going on and it will still require the help of the party too keep mobs contained.
A tank is defined as someone who soaks up damage, so the rest of the party doesn't have to.
The only way that appears to be possible is if you can form an artificial choke point.
I ran around and did all those things you are talking about in other games with threat based tanking. Stun, knockback, silence, disarm, etc.. are all tools used in the tanks repertoire.
Now we back on the topic being talk about, with smart A.I and action combat a threat system will not work for it. They want mobs to try to flank your position or even run away and get more help, a magic button the that turns all mobs attention on the tank and nothing else is what they don't want. Terrain with many layers that you can destroy is perfect for creating choke points and will require some thinking in the group on how to do it.
Why do you guys keep repeating that bullshit taunt line over and over. It is completely false!
Tanking via choke point will not be common. That is just a hail marry pass a dev thought up to reassure you that tanking is possible.
Yes it will and I am sure most parties will want a wall of steel blocking those choke points. You think range will have a easy time in the lower tiers of terrain with enclosed areas and narrow passageways with out a plate wearer blocking the way?
Tanking isn't even necessary in the game. The devs already said tanking won't be effective. That choke point thing is just a gimmick that you can possibly use if you wanted to try. Surely, you don't think the whole game will rely on choke points.
Originally posted by kruss11 Advanced AI is having mobs choose random targets... sounds so advanced. Holy trinity is heals/tanks/dps not ENCHANTER some random enc probably made that up. Its the 3 things you need to kill stuff, everything else is fluff. EQN class system is so WACK it doesn't matter how advanced and AI is. Theres nothing else an AI can do besides attack a healer after a while and not focus on the tank. Which is completely annoying for a tank and makes them useless. You want to run around knocking things back that are on ppl, sounds not fun. I want to ENGAGE the enemy not run around knocking things back.
The term "Holy Trinity" was coined by EQ players and referred to a warrior (a class that could reduce damage taken by 40% for a set amount of time, making them the only player class that could tank certain content) the cleric (the class with the fastest and the most powerful heals) and the enchanter (the class that could "mezmorize" monsters to stun them for up to 2 minutes, so that the warrior and cleric and DPS could kill one target at a time, and slow the main target's attacks so that the cleric did not run out of healing). There was content in Everquest that basically could only be handled if you had these three classes in your group. That's where the term came from. Want to do X camp? Do you have a cleric, warrior and enchanter already? Ok sign me up.
World of Warcraft did not have a class dedicated solely to crowd control, and the term over the years got changed to the "Trinity" meaning three archetypes, tanking, healing and damage.
So, whenever you see "Holy Trinity" - it is an EQ term, and includes the enchanter class. The other three group members (EQ groups had 6 people), were expected to do DPS, a 4th archetype.
What are you smoking? The holy trinity is the same as the trinity. It is the DPS Tank and Healer. Whether or not it had some slightly different meaning in the past is irrelevant.
EQN devs said that tanking won't be the slightest bit effective in EQN.
Tanking in the form you mean yes, but "tanking" will still be possible. A class that can stun-snare-knock back-unarm etc etc an enemy is "tanking". Are they spamming taunt, no, they are actually having to work for it. Taunt defining a tank is a fairly shallow system.
Who in the hell said Taunt? In what shit game is tanking spamming taunt?
You can't be a tank in EQN, sorry, cant be done. You can be an annoyance, but what is the point in being defensive? Hey, that gives me a good idea. The new title of this role will be pest.
Now your just being stubborn, it can done but it will work differently then in the old mmos, tanking will be more fluid and more reactive to whats going on and it will still require the help of the party too keep mobs contained.
A tank is defined as someone who soaks up damage, so the rest of the party doesn't have to.
The only way that appears to be possible is if you can form an artificial choke point.
I ran around and did all those things you are talking about in other games with threat based tanking. Stun, knockback, silence, disarm, etc.. are all tools used in the tanks repertoire.
Now we back on the topic being talk about, with smart A.I and action combat a threat system will not work for it. They want mobs to try to flank your position or even run away and get more help, a magic button the that turns all mobs attention on the tank and nothing else is what they don't want. Terrain with many layers that you can destroy is perfect for creating choke points and will require some thinking in the group on how to do it.
Why do you guys keep repeating that bullshit taunt line over and over. It is completely false!
Tanking via choke point will not be common. That is just a hail marry pass a dev thought up to reassure you that tanking is possible.
Yes it will and I am sure most parties will want a wall of steel blocking those choke points. You think range will have a easy time in the lower tiers of terrain with enclosed areas and narrow passageways with out a plate wearer blocking the way?
um neither of you guys have enough information to say how things will be done in EQN your both speculating with almost no information.
By his definition of a tank being a damage soaker and taunt thrower then he is correct you probably won't be able to tank in EQN.But there are other ways of being a defensive asset to a team including damage mitigation to others,barriers and all sorts of CC and debuffs for examples look at how people play full defensive tanks in games like SW:TOR,DAoC and War in PvP.
Originally posted by kruss11 Advanced AI is having mobs choose random targets... sounds so advanced. Holy trinity is heals/tanks/dps not ENCHANTER some random enc probably made that up. Its the 3 things you need to kill stuff, everything else is fluff. EQN class system is so WACK it doesn't matter how advanced and AI is. Theres nothing else an AI can do besides attack a healer after a while and not focus on the tank. Which is completely annoying for a tank and makes them useless. You want to run around knocking things back that are on ppl, sounds not fun. I want to ENGAGE the enemy not run around knocking things back.
The term "Holy Trinity" was coined by EQ players and referred to a warrior (a class that could reduce damage taken by 40% for a set amount of time, making them the only player class that could tank certain content) the cleric (the class with the fastest and the most powerful heals) and the enchanter (the class that could "mezmorize" monsters to stun them for up to 2 minutes, so that the warrior and cleric and DPS could kill one target at a time, and slow the main target's attacks so that the cleric did not run out of healing). There was content in Everquest that basically could only be handled if you had these three classes in your group. That's where the term came from. Want to do X camp? Do you have a cleric, warrior and enchanter already? Ok sign me up.
World of Warcraft did not have a class dedicated solely to crowd control, and the term over the years got changed to the "Trinity" meaning three archetypes, tanking, healing and damage.
So, whenever you see "Holy Trinity" - it is an EQ term, and includes the enchanter class. The other three group members (EQ groups had 6 people), were expected to do DPS, a 4th archetype.
What are you smoking? The holy trinity is the same as the trinity. It is the DPS Tank and Healer. Whether or not it had some slightly different meaning in the past is irrelevant.
EQN devs said that tanking won't be the slightest bit effective in EQN.
Tanking in the form you mean yes, but "tanking" will still be possible. A class that can stun-snare-knock back-unarm etc etc an enemy is "tanking". Are they spamming taunt, no, they are actually having to work for it. Taunt defining a tank is a fairly shallow system.
Who in the hell said Taunt? In what shit game is tanking spamming taunt?
You can't be a tank in EQN, sorry, cant be done. You can be an annoyance, but what is the point in being defensive? Hey, that gives me a good idea. The new title of this role will be pest.
Now your just being stubborn, it can done but it will work differently then in the old mmos, tanking will be more fluid and more reactive to whats going on and it will still require the help of the party too keep mobs contained.
A tank is defined as someone who soaks up damage, so the rest of the party doesn't have to.
The only way that appears to be possible is if you can form an artificial choke point.
I ran around and did all those things you are talking about in other games with threat based tanking. Stun, knockback, silence, disarm, etc.. are all tools used in the tanks repertoire.
Now we back on the topic being talk about, with smart A.I and action combat a threat system will not work for it. They want mobs to try to flank your position or even run away and get more help, a magic button the that turns all mobs attention on the tank and nothing else is what they don't want. Terrain with many layers that you can destroy is perfect for creating choke points and will require some thinking in the group on how to do it.
Why do you guys keep repeating that bullshit taunt line over and over. It is completely false!
Tanking via choke point will not be common. That is just a hail marry pass a dev thought up to reassure you that tanking is possible.
Yes it will and I am sure most parties will want a wall of steel blocking those choke points. You think range will have a easy time in the lower tiers of terrain with enclosed areas and narrow passageways with out a plate wearer blocking the way?
Tanking isn't even necessary in the game. The devs already said tanking won't be effective. That choke point thing is just a gimmick that you can possibly use if you wanted to try. Surely, you don't think the whole game will rely on choke points.
Gimmick my ass , you can make you own tunnels and passageways in the game that will randomly spawn mobs once you open one up and I be sure to put the guy with the plate armor and shield in front of the party. The whole point of a sandbox is to make your own adventures.
Strategies may not always hinge on class comp but the environment.
Mage makes a big hole under boss X and the "tank" jumps down into said hole and the mob is forced to attack the tank whiole healers stay above and heal.
Line of sight could be used as well. Rangers are far away and the boss cant really tell where they are exactly especially if you shoot and move shoot and move.
The real AI is going to be when the boss fells that tree onto the raid before the raid fells it onto him. We dont want to go too far and be like Neverwinter where you knock mobs off ledges to win.
A tank is defined as someone who soaks up damage, so the rest of the party doesn't have to.
The only way that appears to be possible is if you can form an artificial choke point.
I ran around and did all those things you are talking about in other games with threat based tanking. Stun, knockback, silence, disarm, etc.. are all tools used in the tanks repertoire.
I understand that definition (which isn't universal) and that usually tank-soaking damage-taunt go hand in hand. Which usually relies on a player spamming taunt or other abilities that build threat, while mobs stand there and ignore the rest of the team.
Team of 20 with 5 Warriors in front holding shields knocking back the enemy, slowing them down, dazing them, etc or team of 20 with 1 player standing their taunting while 19 others are free to do whatever they want.
I'm not sure how the 2nd example is better or more exciting then the first. Both accomplish the same goal, but one requires a lot more teamwork and active playing.
Maybe it is because I've played a lot of DAoC PVP and get what EQN will be about, but I find the dated "Tank" role to be past it's prime.
To me, a "Tank" is someone that can hold their ground while defending their team. That doesn't mean they have to be wearing plate, holding a sword/shield, or be the biggest guy on the screen.
If a Rogue had the skills available to keep a mob off a team, while also evading damage, that to me is equal to a Warrior standing there taking full on hits and soaking up the damage. Both are getting the job done.
I'm sorry you can't think outside the box, but their will be different roles needed in EQN. One of them will be defense/tanking to a point. If they can pull off some high quality AI and complex combat encounters, I think we will see a lot of exciting game play.
What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
Originally posted by evilastro What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
My favorite post in the entire thread. Where were you 170 posts ago, evilastro?!?!?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by evilastro What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
As stated in the EQN panels from the SoE live event, there is no taunt, mobs will go after those they believe are hurting them the most, however I'm sure that emotes will be in the game so you could emote a shout at the mobs and see how far that gets you .
Originally posted by evilastro What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
As stated in the EQN panels from the SoE live event, there is no taunt, mobs will go after those they believe are hurting them the most, however I'm sure that emotes will be in the game so you could emote a shout at the mobs and see how far that gets you .
Originally posted by evilastro What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
As stated in the EQN panels from the SoE live event, there is no taunt, mobs will go after those they believe are hurting them the most, however I'm sure that emotes will be in the game so you could emote a shout at the mobs and see how far that gets you .
DPS will have a field day with that
We haven't seen what defense system will be in place of the trinity's taunt.
CD? CC?
Who knows, wait and see!
Woohoo!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by evilastro What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
As stated in the EQN panels from the SoE live event, there is no taunt, mobs will go after those they believe are hurting them the most, however I'm sure that emotes will be in the game so you could emote a shout at the mobs and see how far that gets you .
DPS will have a field day with that
Yes they will, again as stated in the EQN panels everyone will have to take care of themselves. I hope it won't be the headless chicken fights I experienced in GW2, my guild mates from many MMO's just did not (and I include myself) know how to handle the boss fights without the traditional tank taunts and dedicated healers, it was a massive DPS burn to get the bosses down, while incurring plenty of corpse runs.
Originally posted by evilastro What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
As stated in the EQN panels from the SoE live event, there is no taunt, mobs will go after those they believe are hurting them the most, however I'm sure that emotes will be in the game so you could emote a shout at the mobs and see how far that gets you .
And here is the example of DUMB DEVS.. A group of 5 players run across a pack of wolves.. TELL me how wolves KNOW who is damaging them the most? I can tell YOU right now.. If you are on the ground being kicked by 4 people in a fight.. DO you really know who is doing the most damage.. What the devs are saying about smart AI is stupid to the Nth degree..
EDIT: or another example is you are brawling in a fight and 3 of his buddies are pelting you with their sling shots.. DO you honestly believe ANYONE could tell which sling shot is doing the most damage? HELL NO.. As the victem the only thing you're going to feel is pain and the person in front of you..
we dont know what they're capable of pulling off...
....because we haven't seen the game's AI in action
because it isn't even friggin beta yet and already people are saying gameplay statements are lies.....
...which makes this 18 pgs of rampant yet mostly baseless speculation...
/thread?
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Originally posted by evilastro What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
As stated in the EQN panels from the SoE live event, there is no taunt, mobs will go after those they believe are hurting them the most, however I'm sure that emotes will be in the game so you could emote a shout at the mobs and see how far that gets you .
And here is the example of DUMB DEVS.. A group of 5 players run across a pack of wolves.. TELL me how wolves KNOW who is damaging them the most? I can tell YOU right now.. If you are on the ground being kicked by 4 people in a fight.. DO you really know who is doing the most damage.. What the devs are saying about smart AI is stupid to the Nth degree..
EDIT: or another example is you are brawling in a fight and 3 of his buddies are pelting you with their sling shots.. DO you honestly believe ANYONE could tell which sling shot is doing the most damage? HELL NO.. As the victem the only thing you're going to feel is pain and the person in front of you..
1) In both your RL example the fight is practically over and you lost lol.
2) You also assume there is only one level of AI and than a pack of wolves has the same intelligence in the game as every other mob even humans etc.
3) People are reading to much into the SOE live quote it simply means there no taunt mechanic and that the AI can make it's own decisions on who to attack and how.
4) We don;t know what kind of AI systems will be in the game or if they truly are AI and not just marketing speak for a different kind of mob scripting.We have seen no evidence of AI in action as the demos didn't have any monsters moving that weren't being controlled by humans.
Originally posted by evilastro What would be the point of making better AI if everything in the world is dumb enough to turn around and attack the most heavily armoured person who is shouting mean things at them?
As stated in the EQN panels from the SoE live event, there is no taunt, mobs will go after those they believe are hurting them the most, however I'm sure that emotes will be in the game so you could emote a shout at the mobs and see how far that gets you .
And here is the example of DUMB DEVS.. A group of 5 players run across a pack of wolves.. TELL me how wolves KNOW who is damaging them the most? I can tell YOU right now.. If you are on the ground being kicked by 4 people in a fight.. DO you really know who is doing the most damage.. What the devs are saying about smart AI is stupid to the Nth degree..
EDIT: or another example is you are brawling in a fight and 3 of his buddies are pelting you with their sling shots.. DO you honestly believe ANYONE could tell which sling shot is doing the most damage? HELL NO.. As the victem the only thing you're going to feel is pain and the person in front of you..
1) In both your RL example the fight is practically over and you lost lol. True, but same can be said with military actions.. Your position if being blasted by 5 canons.. Do you really know which cannon to focus on? Honestly?
2) You also assume there is only one level of AI and than a pack of wolves has the same intelligence in the game as every other mob even humans etc. Even the smartest of AI"s it's impossible in most cases to tell which "range" dps is doing the most harm.. Face to face you have a better clue who is more harmful but not range damage..
3) People are reading to much into the SOE live quote it simply means there no taunt mechanic and that the AI can make it's own decisions on who to attack and how. Smart AI is just an excuse to justify random chaos..
4) We don;t know what kind of AI systems will be in the game or if they truly are AI and not just marketing speak for a different kind of mob scripting.We have seen no evidence of AI in action as the demos didn't have any monsters moving that weren't being controlled by humans. Again AI is just smoke and mirrors to REAL intelligence and actions.. I suspect we'll be dished a serving of random chaos that promotes zerging..
Comments
That actually makes a bit more of a concrete picture in my head on how the fights may play out using existing game combat, which he must be close due to the SmokeJumper comment.
Lol I am fine with more intelligent AI, as long as they aren't so intelligent that they begin kiting and LOS'ing "pillar humping" to avoid damage lol.
I sorta think it be cool to have, at maximum, in combat healing using a small HoT and give support classes an out of combat burst heal...bet it would become wayyyyy more tense combat when you can't rely on that burst heal every few seconds lol.
Who in the hell said Taunt? In what shit game is tanking spamming taunt?
You can't be a tank in EQN, sorry, cant be done. You can be an annoyance, but what is the point in being defensive? Hey, that gives me a good idea. The new title of this role will be pest.
The holy trinity only refers to PvE. Why is this hard to grasp?
Bad games without a trinity do not suffice as examples of a good non-trinity system.
Now your just being stubborn, it can done but it will work differently then in the old mmos, tanking will be more fluid and more reactive to whats going on and it will still require the help of the party too keep mobs contained.
A tank is defined as someone who soaks up damage, so the rest of the party doesn't have to.
The only way that appears to be possible is if you can form an artificial choke point.
I ran around and did all those things you are talking about in other games with threat based tanking. Stun, knockback, silence, disarm, etc.. are all tools used in the tanks repertoire.
Now we back on the topic being talk about, with smart A.I and action combat a threat system will not work for it. They want mobs to try to flank your position or even run away and get more help, a magic button the that turns all mobs attention on the tank and nothing else is what they don't want. Terrain with many layers that you can destroy is perfect for creating choke points and will require some thinking in the group on how to do it.
Why do you guys keep repeating that bullshit taunt line over and over. It is completely false!
Tanking via choke point will not be common. That is just a hail marry pass a dev thought up to reassure you that tanking is possible.
Yes it will and I am sure most parties will want a wall of steel blocking those choke points. You think range will have a easy time in the lower tiers of terrain with enclosed areas and narrow passageways with out a plate wearer blocking the way?
Tanking isn't even necessary in the game. The devs already said tanking won't be effective. That choke point thing is just a gimmick that you can possibly use if you wanted to try. Surely, you don't think the whole game will rely on choke points.
um neither of you guys have enough information to say how things will be done in EQN your both speculating with almost no information.
By his definition of a tank being a damage soaker and taunt thrower then he is correct you probably won't be able to tank in EQN.But there are other ways of being a defensive asset to a team including damage mitigation to others,barriers and all sorts of CC and debuffs for examples look at how people play full defensive tanks in games like SW:TOR,DAoC and War in PvP.
Gimmick my ass , you can make you own tunnels and passageways in the game that will randomly spawn mobs once you open one up and I be sure to put the guy with the plate armor and shield in front of the party. The whole point of a sandbox is to make your own adventures.
Dont forget destructibility.
Strategies may not always hinge on class comp but the environment.
Mage makes a big hole under boss X and the "tank" jumps down into said hole and the mob is forced to attack the tank whiole healers stay above and heal.
Line of sight could be used as well. Rangers are far away and the boss cant really tell where they are exactly especially if you shoot and move shoot and move.
The real AI is going to be when the boss fells that tree onto the raid before the raid fells it onto him. We dont want to go too far and be like Neverwinter where you knock mobs off ledges to win.
I understand that definition (which isn't universal) and that usually tank-soaking damage-taunt go hand in hand. Which usually relies on a player spamming taunt or other abilities that build threat, while mobs stand there and ignore the rest of the team.
Team of 20 with 5 Warriors in front holding shields knocking back the enemy, slowing them down, dazing them, etc or team of 20 with 1 player standing their taunting while 19 others are free to do whatever they want.
I'm not sure how the 2nd example is better or more exciting then the first. Both accomplish the same goal, but one requires a lot more teamwork and active playing.
Maybe it is because I've played a lot of DAoC PVP and get what EQN will be about, but I find the dated "Tank" role to be past it's prime.
To me, a "Tank" is someone that can hold their ground while defending their team. That doesn't mean they have to be wearing plate, holding a sword/shield, or be the biggest guy on the screen.
If a Rogue had the skills available to keep a mob off a team, while also evading damage, that to me is equal to a Warrior standing there taking full on hits and soaking up the damage. Both are getting the job done.
I'm sorry you can't think outside the box, but their will be different roles needed in EQN. One of them will be defense/tanking to a point. If they can pull off some high quality AI and complex combat encounters, I think we will see a lot of exciting game play.
My favorite post in the entire thread.
Where were you 170 posts ago, evilastro?!?!?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
As stated in the EQN panels from the SoE live event, there is no taunt, mobs will go after those they believe are hurting them the most, however I'm sure that emotes will be in the game so you could emote a shout at the mobs and see how far that gets you
.
DPS will have a field day with that
We haven't seen what defense system will be in place of the trinity's taunt.
CD? CC?
Who knows, wait and see!
Woohoo!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes they will, again as stated in the EQN panels everyone will have to take care of themselves. I hope it won't be the headless chicken fights I experienced in GW2, my guild mates from many MMO's just did not (and I include myself) know how to handle the boss fights without the traditional tank taunts and dedicated healers, it was a massive DPS burn to get the bosses down, while incurring plenty of corpse runs.
What we have in games has little to do with Artificial Intelligence.
I know it has become the norm to use the term to refer to what any computer controlled characters do, but in the end there's very little to it.
When it comes to "video game AI" it certainly isn't a matter of any sort of technology being needed. Just some good ideas.
And here is the example of DUMB DEVS.. A group of 5 players run across a pack of wolves.. TELL me how wolves KNOW who is damaging them the most? I can tell YOU right now.. If you are on the ground being kicked by 4 people in a fight.. DO you really know who is doing the most damage.. What the devs are saying about smart AI is stupid to the Nth degree..
EDIT: or another example is you are brawling in a fight and 3 of his buddies are pelting you with their sling shots.. DO you honestly believe ANYONE could tell which sling shot is doing the most damage? HELL NO.. As the victem the only thing you're going to feel is pain and the person in front of you..
we dont know what they're capable of pulling off...
....because we haven't seen the game's AI in action
because it isn't even friggin beta yet and already people are saying gameplay statements are lies.....
...which makes this 18 pgs of rampant yet mostly baseless speculation...
/thread?
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
1) In both your RL example the fight is practically over and you lost lol.
2) You also assume there is only one level of AI and than a pack of wolves has the same intelligence in the game as every other mob even humans etc.
3) People are reading to much into the SOE live quote it simply means there no taunt mechanic and that the AI can make it's own decisions on who to attack and how.
4) We don;t know what kind of AI systems will be in the game or if they truly are AI and not just marketing speak for a different kind of mob scripting.We have seen no evidence of AI in action as the demos didn't have any monsters moving that weren't being controlled by humans.