Lol, yes I know so little about the genre because you have assumptions? I am talking about the trends in mainstream AAA or even I guess AA MMORPG's. Why most games you see come out subscription based and have to switch.
Right, because your entire post wasn't one massive assumption, you are the world authority on the MMO industry.
Also love how you still call MMOs that are forced to go F2P due to lack of people playing them "AAA"...anything to help fit your narrow view into the little bubble you created for it.
F2P is taking over in the west because the west has been lagging behind the east on revenue for many years...and with games of far lower quality. Now that the quality of eastern games are catching up, the west has little choice but convert or be bought out like so many others already have. Nexon alone has spent more money buying out companies than Turbine, Funcom and Trion makes combined.
They switch because there is more money in the F2P field...now if only they actually went F2P and not FREEMIUM, which is NOT where the money is. The west better shape up quick before they lose it all...the only big guns that are going to remain are EA and Blizzard...EA is trash and Blizzard isn't exactly pushing out a lot of MMOs.
Many people have been tracking MMORPG trends since 99. (We were there and don't have to guess either.)
These developers are going F2P because of the overwhelming amounts of children in the market space. Spending very little time on their products and shoving them out the door hoping enough marketing causes a small percentage of those 20 million WoW'tardz to latch on to your game... for revenues. (even 5%)
But, we are not discussing the business model of F2P, or subscription mmorpgs... we are talking about WHY... why would you want to play a F2P, over a subscription based one...?
Not, how much money the devs make off free to play, or the building a MMORPG... but why a 25 year old adult seeks out a cheap frilly free game, over one that is subscription based. It mostly comes down to it was free.. and most youth are cheap. It is simple math and we have 15 years of MMO charts that tell us the whole story.
Seems to me, that people cannot separate their wants, from their haves.
You can't say that people who drive a Ford Focus, don't want a Porsche.. they do, they just can't afford it. That is not what I am asking here.... just why do you WANT a free game, over one that is subscription. But all I keep hearing is about people fears, excuses to play sub games. Not that they don't like them.
Sadly, nobody has refuted that free = children infested games.
Again, we all understand the easy MONEY is to be had with the happy-cakes crowd. Who are not discerning, or even care about quality, they just wants their trinkets. But none of that takes away from a premium game. Free games just make it easier to house all the kids.. whom, someday might graduate to a sub game.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
But why are you so overly concerned with a companies revenues and how much they can make VS players having a high quality premium game..?
I'm not overly concerned with it. I was responding to a false impression the other poster had.
He didn't have a false impression.
You are talking about revenues, or players..? Because they ONLY go hand-in-hand when you are talking about subscription based model, not free to play games. 50% of the people who play free games, do not buy anything. They are just there playing and taking up resources.
I have played nearly every free game there was... created a char, ran around, never log in again. Most everyone "tries" a free game... that is not revenue.. those people are a negative asset.
THESE DEVELOPERS MAKE MONEY, because of the mass influx of WoW refugees storm their cheap server farm and load them up on cash.
THAT HAS NOTHING to do with having a good game to play for 10 years... while others will play 5 free games in a 10 year period.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
its been stated many times allready. The quality of many free to play games is just as good or bad as pay to play games and it givea people choice on where and how to spend their money. Why wouldnt they choose free to play if the game they wantto play gives them thay choice
And ftp doesn't mean children. There is just as big a percentage in pay to play.
And you are dead wrong in why games went free to play. Nothing to do with kids. Everything to do with hundreds of games to choose from.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I read your original post and simply shook my head at you clear lack of knowledge of today's world here in the USA.
In case you are unaware.the US economy is a shambles.Food stamp usage is at record highs and growing exponentially.Bankrupsies continue to soar.A large percentage of college grads are moving back to their parents homes because they cannot find a job.....who do you think companies target when the have to make cuts ...the older workers who are costing the company more to keep them.The construction industry is comatose.Huge segments of the housing market(the home owners are older not younger) have mortgages that are underwater(you owe more than the house is worth)....tens of millions have left the job market and given up even looking for work. The price of gasoline sucks discretionary dollars out of every household budget.(I could continue the litany but hope you begin to understand my point)
Discretionary income has shrunk dramatically
Game playing uses discretionary income
Having to buy a game then pay for it each month has become for an increasing number something they cannot afford
Op you really need to take a closer look at today's reality....a much closer look.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar its been stated many times allready. The quality of many free to play games is just as good or bad as pay to play games and it givea people choice on where and how to spend their money. Why wouldnt they choose free to play if the game they wantto play gives them thay choice
And ftp doesn't mean children. There is just as big a percentage in pay to play.
And you are dead wrong in why games went free to play. Nothing to do with kids. Everything to do with hundreds of games to choose from.
Please name one high quality, free to play game, comparable to a modern MMORPG..
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar its been stated many times allready. The quality of many free to play games is just as good or bad as pay to play games and it givea people choice on where and how to spend their money. Why wouldnt they choose free to play if the game they wantto play gives them thay choice
And ftp doesn't mean children. There is just as big a percentage in pay to play.
And you are dead wrong in why games went free to play. Nothing to do with kids. Everything to do with hundreds of games to choose from.
Yes exactly, hundreds of other games to choose from...
IN which you mean non-mmorpg games. You do not understand, that we are discussing the same thing, you are just unwilling (or too new) to understand that most of these things you speak of, are not mmorpg, but mmo's.. & we don't care about them. They are graphic arcades.
Can you imagine the whole entire world of Middle-earth rendered in open world, immense. & in It's entirety.. with incredible depth.
It cost you $25 a month, to try and make your mark.
Or, RIFT..?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar its been stated many times allready. The quality of many free to play games is just as good or bad as pay to play games and it givea people choice on where and how to spend their money. Why wouldnt they choose free to play if the game they wantto play gives them thay choice
And ftp doesn't mean children. There is just as big a percentage in pay to play.
And you are dead wrong in why games went free to play. Nothing to do with kids. Everything to do with hundreds of games to choose from.
Yes exactly, hundreds of other games to choose from...
IN which you mean non-mmorpg games. You do not understand, that we are discussing the same thing, you are just unwilling (or too new) to understand that most of these things you speak of, are not mmorpg, but mmo's.. & we don't care about them. They are graphic arcades.
Can you imagine the whole entire world of Middle-earth rendered in open world, immense. & in It's entirety.. with incredible depth.
It cost you $25 a month, to try and make your mark.
Or, RIFT..?
I'm discussing MMORPG, there are hundreds of MMORPG"s now.
I have no problem with any developer making a great big game and charging for it. I'm playing EQ subbed right now (well one account is subbed).
You asked for reasons why, I gave them.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
EQ, EQ2, Lotro, CoH (when it was around), Age of Wushu, Aion, DCUO, VG (in some respects).
All just as good if not better than WoW, Eve (can't talk about ffx1iv yet).
OMG... r u really that myopic..? Er, those^ game went to that business model.
NONE OF THEM are viable for the arguments you've been making. We are talking about a tried and true REALEASED as a free to play game. (That is of the same quality as a modern MMORPG)
Otherwise, you are just an unclever bridge hugger.
edit: How many of those "hundreds of MMORPG's.." are you playing each day, or are even worth your time... let-alone a discerning roleplayer's..?
We are not talking about those... we are talking about something above them, in the premium market. A premium world !!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar its been stated many times allready. The quality of many free to play games is just as good or bad as pay to play games and it givea people choice on where and how to spend their money. Why wouldnt they choose free to play if the game they wantto play gives them thay choice
And ftp doesn't mean children. There is just as big a percentage in pay to play.
And you are dead wrong in why games went free to play. Nothing to do with kids. Everything to do with hundreds of games to choose from.
Yes exactly, hundreds of other games to choose from...
IN which you mean non-mmorpg games. You do not understand, that we are discussing the same thing, you are just unwilling (or too new) to understand that most of these things you speak of, are not mmorpg, but mmo's.. & we don't care about them. They are graphic arcades.
Can you imagine the whole entire world of Middle-earth rendered in open world, immense. & in It's entirety.. with incredible depth.
It cost you $25 a month, to try and make your mark.
Or, RIFT..?
I'm discussing MMORPG, there are hundreds of MMORPG"s now.
I have no problem with any developer making a great big game and charging for it. I'm playing EQ subbed right now (well one account is subbed).
You asked for reasons why, I gave them.
I see.
So would you give that developer that is "making a great big game and charging for it" and support? And if they delivered, would you sub to that game @ $20~25/month ..? (assuming it met your expectations..?)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
EQ, EQ2, Lotro, CoH (when it was around), Age of Wushu, Aion, DCUO, VG (in some respects).
All just as good if not better than WoW, Eve (can't talk about ffx1iv yet).
OMG... r u really that myopic..?
Those^ game went to that business model.
NONE OF THEM are viable for the arguments you've been making. We are talking about a tried and true REALEASED as a free to play game. (That is of the same quality as a modern MMORPG)
Otherwise, you are just an unclever troll.
edit: How many of those "hundreds of MMORPG's.." are you playing each day, or are even worth your time... let-alone a discerning roleplayer's..?
We are not talking about those... we are talking about something above them, in the premium market. A premium world !!
All of them are viable arguments. They are all free to play games today, they impact the free to play and pay to play games today. They are competition for other free to play and pay to play games today. They impact the business models of the market today.
I'm only playing a few of those hundreds of MMORPG's a week. However how many games I'm playing is not the argument. Those games exist today, they are competitiong today.
And Age of Wushu has let you play f2p from day one.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar its been stated many times allready. The quality of many free to play games is just as good or bad as pay to play games and it givea people choice on where and how to spend their money. Why wouldnt they choose free to play if the game they wantto play gives them thay choice
And ftp doesn't mean children. There is just as big a percentage in pay to play.
And you are dead wrong in why games went free to play. Nothing to do with kids. Everything to do with hundreds of games to choose from.
Yes exactly, hundreds of other games to choose from...
IN which you mean non-mmorpg games. You do not understand, that we are discussing the same thing, you are just unwilling (or too new) to understand that most of these things you speak of, are not mmorpg, but mmo's.. & we don't care about them. They are graphic arcades.
Can you imagine the whole entire world of Middle-earth rendered in open world, immense. & in It's entirety.. with incredible depth.
It cost you $25 a month, to try and make your mark.
Or, RIFT..?
I'm discussing MMORPG, there are hundreds of MMORPG"s now.
I have no problem with any developer making a great big game and charging for it. I'm playing EQ subbed right now (well one account is subbed).
You asked for reasons why, I gave them.
I see.
So would you give that developer that is "making a great big game and charging for it" and support? And if they delivered, would you sub to that game @ $20~25/month ..? (assuming it met your expectations..?)
If it was a fun game that I liked, wanted to play and a sub was the only way to pay for it, I would have no problems with paying it. To me the cost model is irrelevant (mostly). The only thing that matters is if I'm having fun and I like the game. If I do and the cost is not prohibitive I'll play it, sub, buy things in the shop with it...
I don't think I'm unusual with that. Maybe, but I don't think so. I don't think most people care too much about a few things in a shop or 15 dollars a month or so. It's just most people are enjoying the games free so why would they leave?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
EQ, EQ2, Lotro, CoH (when it was around), Age of Wushu, Aion, DCUO, VG (in some respects).
All just as good if not better than WoW, Eve (can't talk about ffx1iv yet).
OMG... r u really that myopic..?
Those^ game went to that business model.
NONE OF THEM are viable for the arguments you've been making. We are talking about a tried and true REALEASED as a free to play game. (That is of the same quality as a modern MMORPG)
Otherwise, you are just an unclever troll.
edit: How many of those "hundreds of MMORPG's.." are you playing each day, or are even worth your time... let-alone a discerning roleplayer's..?
We are not talking about those... we are talking about something above them, in the premium market. A premium world !!
All of them are viable arguments. They are all free to play games today, they impact the free to play and pay to play games today. They are competition for other free to play and pay to play games today. They impact the business models of the market today.
I'm only playing a few of those hundreds of MMORPG's a week. However how many games I'm playing is not the argument. Those games exist today, they are competitiong today.
And Age of Wushu has let you play f2p from day one.
OK, how many premium MMORPGs do you see on the market...?
(btw: I edited my previous post.)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
EQ, EQ2, Lotro, CoH (when it was around), Age of Wushu, Aion, DCUO, VG (in some respects).
All just as good if not better than WoW, Eve (can't talk about ffx1iv yet).
OMG... r u really that myopic..?
Those^ game went to that business model.
NONE OF THEM are viable for the arguments you've been making. We are talking about a tried and true REALEASED as a free to play game. (That is of the same quality as a modern MMORPG)
Otherwise, you are just an unclever troll.
edit: How many of those "hundreds of MMORPG's.." are you playing each day, or are even worth your time... let-alone a discerning roleplayer's..?
We are not talking about those... we are talking about something above them, in the premium market. A premium world !!
All of them are viable arguments. They are all free to play games today, they impact the free to play and pay to play games today. They are competition for other free to play and pay to play games today. They impact the business models of the market today.
I'm only playing a few of those hundreds of MMORPG's a week. However how many games I'm playing is not the argument. Those games exist today, they are competitiong today.
And Age of Wushu has let you play f2p from day one.
OK, how many premium MMORPGs do you see on the market...?
(btw: I edited my previous post.)
Ah now that is a different questions.
All the ones I stated I see as premium games (actually I'm still dubious about DCUO and VG, but that may just be a personal bias).
Others I guess would be Eve, AC, DAOC.
Dubious ones that could be considered premium due to cost, but maybe not premium due to implementation (VG falls in this category) are DDO, STO, TSW, War, GW (it's close enough to an MMORPG for me), GW2 probably others I haven't played.
Others I like, were considered premium at one time and are not, or have garnered more respect over time. Atitd, Istaria.
Ones I'm not sure about at all because they are not aimed at me, but are very successfull in their own right, with large enough budges behind them and running for years and years: Club Penguin.
Those are all or most of the ones I'm familiar with.
Note this was a list of games I consider premium or close to it. Some are f2p, some are p2p, most are mixed. I think I like the mixed most of all. I like choosing how to spend my money and that gives me the most choice IMO.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar its been stated many times allready. The quality of many free to play games is just as good or bad as pay to play games and it givea people choice on where and how to spend their money. Why wouldnt they choose free to play if the game they wantto play gives them thay choice
And ftp doesn't mean children. There is just as big a percentage in pay to play.
And you are dead wrong in why games went free to play. Nothing to do with kids. Everything to do with hundreds of games to choose from.
Yes exactly, hundreds of other games to choose from...
IN which you mean non-mmorpg games. You do not understand, that we are discussing the same thing, you are just unwilling (or too new) to understand that most of these things you speak of, are not mmorpg, but mmo's.. & we don't care about them. They are graphic arcades.
Can you imagine the whole entire world of Middle-earth rendered in open world, immense. & in It's entirety.. with incredible depth.
It cost you $25 a month, to try and make your mark.
Or, RIFT..?
I'm discussing MMORPG, there are hundreds of MMORPG"s now.
I have no problem with any developer making a great big game and charging for it. I'm playing EQ subbed right now (well one account is subbed).
You asked for reasons why, I gave them.
I see.
So would you give that developer that is "making a great big game and charging for it" and support? And if they delivered, would you sub to that game @ $20~25/month ..? (assuming it met your expectations..?)
If it was a fun game that I liked, wanted to play and a sub was the only way to pay for it, I would have no problems with paying it. To me the cost model is irrelevant (mostly). The only thing that matters is if I'm having fun and I like the game. If I do and the cost is not prohibitive I'll play it, sub, buy things in the shop with it...
I don't think I'm unusual with that. Maybe, but I don't think so. I don't think most people care too much about a few things in a shop or 15 dollars a month or so. It's just most people are enjoying the games free so why would they leave?
So you would play.
Then why argue against a premium game coming online..?
Edit: as to you post above^. I see it's is very difficult for you to name a premium MMORPG. That is because there really isn't one. Darkfall & Mortal Online came close... but towards the end of their development, they both moved away from their core designs, thus their core community and supporters.
Thus these game are bastardize versions, of what they could've been.
But even these are not the "Premium" style of gaming I am discussing. Perhaps you've played so many free games, you cannot envision a great game...?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar its been stated many times allready. The quality of many free to play games is just as good or bad as pay to play games and it givea people choice on where and how to spend their money. Why wouldnt they choose free to play if the game they wantto play gives them thay choice
And ftp doesn't mean children. There is just as big a percentage in pay to play.
And you are dead wrong in why games went free to play. Nothing to do with kids. Everything to do with hundreds of games to choose from.
Yes exactly, hundreds of other games to choose from...
IN which you mean non-mmorpg games. You do not understand, that we are discussing the same thing, you are just unwilling (or too new) to understand that most of these things you speak of, are not mmorpg, but mmo's.. & we don't care about them. They are graphic arcades.
Can you imagine the whole entire world of Middle-earth rendered in open world, immense. & in It's entirety.. with incredible depth.
It cost you $25 a month, to try and make your mark.
Or, RIFT..?
I'm discussing MMORPG, there are hundreds of MMORPG"s now.
I have no problem with any developer making a great big game and charging for it. I'm playing EQ subbed right now (well one account is subbed).
You asked for reasons why, I gave them.
I see.
So would you give that developer that is "making a great big game and charging for it" and support? And if they delivered, would you sub to that game @ $20~25/month ..? (assuming it met your expectations..?)
If it was a fun game that I liked, wanted to play and a sub was the only way to pay for it, I would have no problems with paying it. To me the cost model is irrelevant (mostly). The only thing that matters is if I'm having fun and I like the game. If I do and the cost is not prohibitive I'll play it, sub, buy things in the shop with it...
I don't think I'm unusual with that. Maybe, but I don't think so. I don't think most people care too much about a few things in a shop or 15 dollars a month or so. It's just most people are enjoying the games free so why would they leave?
So you would play.
Then why argue against a premium game coming online..?
I'm not arguing against a premium game coming online.
I'm arguing that the reasons you give of the market, of those that play f2p games and the reasons why f2p has gotten big are wrong.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar its been stated many times allready. The quality of many free to play games is just as good or bad as pay to play games and it givea people choice on where and how to spend their money. Why wouldnt they choose free to play if the game they wantto play gives them thay choice
And ftp doesn't mean children. There is just as big a percentage in pay to play.
And you are dead wrong in why games went free to play. Nothing to do with kids. Everything to do with hundreds of games to choose from.
Yes exactly, hundreds of other games to choose from...
IN which you mean non-mmorpg games. You do not understand, that we are discussing the same thing, you are just unwilling (or too new) to understand that most of these things you speak of, are not mmorpg, but mmo's.. & we don't care about them. They are graphic arcades.
Can you imagine the whole entire world of Middle-earth rendered in open world, immense. & in It's entirety.. with incredible depth.
It cost you $25 a month, to try and make your mark.
Or, RIFT..?
I'm discussing MMORPG, there are hundreds of MMORPG"s now.
I have no problem with any developer making a great big game and charging for it. I'm playing EQ subbed right now (well one account is subbed).
You asked for reasons why, I gave them.
I see.
So would you give that developer that is "making a great big game and charging for it" and support? And if they delivered, would you sub to that game @ $20~25/month ..? (assuming it met your expectations..?)
If it was a fun game that I liked, wanted to play and a sub was the only way to pay for it, I would have no problems with paying it. To me the cost model is irrelevant (mostly). The only thing that matters is if I'm having fun and I like the game. If I do and the cost is not prohibitive I'll play it, sub, buy things in the shop with it...
I don't think I'm unusual with that. Maybe, but I don't think so. I don't think most people care too much about a few things in a shop or 15 dollars a month or so. It's just most people are enjoying the games free so why would they leave?
So you would play.
Then why argue against a premium game coming online..?
I'm not arguing against a premium game coming online.
I'm arguing that the reasons you give of the market, of those that play f2p games and the reasons why f2p has gotten big are wrong.
Start a thread on that, I'll make you famous.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Then why argue against a premium game coming online..?
I'm not arguing against a premium game coming online.
I'm arguing that the reasons you give of the market, of those that play f2p games and the reasons why f2p has gotten big are wrong.
Start a thread on that, I'll make you famous.
An argument is made up of a statement or premise, reasons for that statement and a conclusion that is often a reflection of the statement.
I agree with your premise (wanting a premium sub game) however your reasons are flawed (the f2p market demographic, your selection and selection size, and views on money).
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I like the concept of being able to speak with my money so that I reinforce the design decisions that create better content.
For instance Warframe. When or if DE would release some good anti-farmville content, I'd throw down $10.00. If they create some amazing new assets and content to go along with it as well as events to extend the life of that content, I'd throw down $30.00.
However I would never buy into a founder program, even if the USD/Plat ratio is higher, mainly because the founders program is a disgusting system that allows players to buy into power thus creating an idiosyncratic design council that follows the dumbest of baits on the forums.
Ultimately the game went full on Pay to Win(Pay or Wait 3 Months to get the same content as everyone else) with the release of Forma which no doubt some CoD baby from the design council thought that prestige was the best creation ever vomited from that series.
Can any game with a cash shop not be designed around the cash shop? I'd like to believe, but I think we all know the answer to that.
I like the concept of being able to speak with my money so that I reinforce the design decisions that create better content.
For instance Warframe. When or if DE would release some good anti-farmville content, I'd throw down $10.00. If they create some amazing new assets and content to go along with it as well as events to extend the life of that content, I'd throw down $30.00.
However I would never buy into a founder program, even if the USD/Plat ratio is higher, mainly because the founders program is a disgusting system that allows players to buy into power thus creating an idiosyncratic design council that follows the dumbest of baits on the forums.
Ultimately the game went full on Pay to Win(Pay or Wait 3 Months to get the same content as everyone else) with the release of Forma which no doubt some CoD baby from the design council thought that prestige was the best creation ever vomited from that series.
Can any game with a cash shop not be designed around the cash shop? I'd like to believe, but I think we all know the answer to that.
"I'd throw down $30.00."
A friend of mine made a similar comment^.
He an oldschool Battlefield player (BF1942/Vietnam/2) but was new to EA's Origin, & after the 4th expansion pack we kept telling him to buy.. he chimed in over vent (quite mad) and said something like this:
"This is such frustratring phucktardary.. I just put an new LSD on my Mustang yesterday & that is a lot easier than trying to keep up with these packs & games you guys want me to install & buy.
Why can't I just drop a grand at DICE's doorstep and say I am in, FOR LIFE..! (?)"
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Being an ex EQer i'll throw in my 2 cents......I played EQ from 2000-05......I bought several expansions and paid 15 bucks a month that whole time...I estimated I spent about 1500 dollars or so total......You can analyze "its only 15 dollars" all yo uwant but the reality of it is if you want to play for any length of time it isn't 15 dollars...its considerably more (as you can see)......Now we come to the point where we ask: Should I really pay several hundred dollars to play a video game for any length of time?
Lets take Skyrim.....I paid about 50 bucks for Skyrim.......I can play it as long as I like and it is still 50 dollars unless I buy some mod or it has an expansion pack or something....I cant say that about alot of p2p MMOs......Once I stop paying I have nothing.....Thats why f2p games now appeal to me more than p2ps.....It isnt that I cant afford 15 dollars, its that I dont want to pay for every single game I play and then have nothing when I stop......I dont have to do that with many other games, why should I have to do it with a MMO?...Its not like they offer above and beyond for that 15 dollars.
So in the end did I enjoy EQ1? yes I still play it occasionally but now I have the option of playing it for free....Would I start over fresh and pay 15 bucks a month again? no....I felt in the end I wasted my money.....Now I play f2ps and spend what I want, when I want, on what I want......Also if I dont feel like spending I can still play and that is the key.
Being an ex EQer i'll throw in my 2 cents......I played EQ from 2000-05......I bought several expansions and paid 15 bucks a month that whole time...I estimated I spent about 1500 dollars or so total......You can analyze "its only 15 dollars" all yo uwant but the reality of it is if you want to play for any length of time it isn't 15 dollars...its considerably more (as you can see)......Now we come to the point where we ask: Should I really pay several hundred dollars to play a video game for any length of time?
Lets take Skyrim.....I paid about 50 bucks for Skyrim.......I can play it as long as I like and it is still 50 dollars unless I buy some mod or it has an expansion pack or something....I cant say that about alot of p2p MMOs......Once I stop paying I have nothing.....Thats why f2p games now appeal to me more than p2ps.....It isnt that I cant afford 15 dollars, its that I dont want to pay for every single game I play and then have nothing when I stop......I dont have to do that with many other games, why should I have to do it with a MMO?...Its not like they offer above and beyond for that 15 dollars.
So in the end did I enjoy EQ1? yes I still play it occasionally but now I have the option of playing it for free....Would I start over fresh and pay 15 bucks a month again? no....I felt in the end I wasted my money.....Now I play f2ps and spend what I want, when I want, on what I want......Also if I dont feel like spending I can still play and that is the key.
One of the more sensible posts I've read in this entire thread.
You are talking about revenues, or players..? Because they ONLY go hand-in-hand when you are talking about subscription based model, not free to play games. 50% of the people who play free games, do not buy anything. They are just there playing and taking up resources.
I have played nearly every free game there was... created a char, ran around, never log in again. Most everyone "tries" a free game... that is not revenue.. those people are a negative asset.
THESE DEVELOPERS MAKE MONEY, because of the mass influx of WoW refugees storm their cheap server farm and load them up on cash.
THAT HAS NOTHING to do with having a good game to play for 10 years... while others will play 5 free games in a 10 year period.
Pay attention to the conversation if you're going to comment on it. He was talking about the amount being made by F2P vs. Sub-based. I corrected his assumption.
Really the fact that you think 50% of players pay sheds light on why you're even bothering to argue about this. Knowing that these games survive on at most 30% payers, and typically 1-2% payers, is sort of the baseline knowledge to even enter a discussion on the model.
But what really matters is when you count up the various games and how many companies are being supported by F2P, compared with how many were supported by early subscription MMORPGs. It's a big difference, and indicates the general revenue being made, which is without a doubt more than pre-WOW MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Phelcher Why again are you playing your free game 20h week? Free clearly lacks quality that a 15 mmo veteran demands.
Originally posted by Velocinox ...I'm older than you.
There are a very select few old veterans on these forums who champion the F2P cause. I suspect it is because they want the freedom to play 15 different games in 15 different days. A sub would limit that freedom. It's all a bit hyperactive in my opinion, and that isn't something one outgrows. Whereas, I prefer to focus and set down roots in one game at a time. Add in a FPS too, but certainly not another MMORPG.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Comments
Many people have been tracking MMORPG trends since 99. (We were there and don't have to guess either.)
These developers are going F2P because of the overwhelming amounts of children in the market space. Spending very little time on their products and shoving them out the door hoping enough marketing causes a small percentage of those 20 million WoW'tardz to latch on to your game... for revenues. (even 5%)
But, we are not discussing the business model of F2P, or subscription mmorpgs... we are talking about WHY... why would you want to play a F2P, over a subscription based one...?
Not, how much money the devs make off free to play, or the building a MMORPG... but why a 25 year old adult seeks out a cheap frilly free game, over one that is subscription based. It mostly comes down to it was free.. and most youth are cheap. It is simple math and we have 15 years of MMO charts that tell us the whole story.
Seems to me, that people cannot separate their wants, from their haves.
You can't say that people who drive a Ford Focus, don't want a Porsche.. they do, they just can't afford it. That is not what I am asking here.... just why do you WANT a free game, over one that is subscription. But all I keep hearing is about people fears, excuses to play sub games. Not that they don't like them.
Sadly, nobody has refuted that free = children infested games.
Again, we all understand the easy MONEY is to be had with the happy-cakes crowd. Who are not discerning, or even care about quality, they just wants their trinkets. But none of that takes away from a premium game. Free games just make it easier to house all the kids.. whom, someday might graduate to a sub game.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
He didn't have a false impression.
You are talking about revenues, or players..? Because they ONLY go hand-in-hand when you are talking about subscription based model, not free to play games. 50% of the people who play free games, do not buy anything. They are just there playing and taking up resources.
I have played nearly every free game there was... created a char, ran around, never log in again. Most everyone "tries" a free game... that is not revenue.. those people are a negative asset.
THESE DEVELOPERS MAKE MONEY, because of the mass influx of WoW refugees storm their cheap server farm and load them up on cash.
THAT HAS NOTHING to do with having a good game to play for 10 years... while others will play 5 free games in a 10 year period.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
And ftp doesn't mean children. There is just as big a percentage in pay to play.
And you are dead wrong in why games went free to play. Nothing to do with kids. Everything to do with hundreds of games to choose from.
OP
I read your original post and simply shook my head at you clear lack of knowledge of today's world here in the USA.
In case you are unaware.the US economy is a shambles.Food stamp usage is at record highs and growing exponentially.Bankrupsies continue to soar.A large percentage of college grads are moving back to their parents homes because they cannot find a job.....who do you think companies target when the have to make cuts ...the older workers who are costing the company more to keep them.The construction industry is comatose.Huge segments of the housing market(the home owners are older not younger) have mortgages that are underwater(you owe more than the house is worth)....tens of millions have left the job market and given up even looking for work. The price of gasoline sucks discretionary dollars out of every household budget.(I could continue the litany but hope you begin to understand my point)
Discretionary income has shrunk dramatically
Game playing uses discretionary income
Having to buy a game then pay for it each month has become for an increasing number something they cannot afford
Op you really need to take a closer look at today's reality....a much closer look.
Please name one high quality, free to play game, comparable to a modern MMORPG..
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
EQ, EQ2, Lotro, CoH (when it was around), Age of Wushu, Aion, DCUO, VG (in some respects).
All just as good if not better than WoW, Eve (can't talk about ffx1iv yet).
Yes exactly, hundreds of other games to choose from...
IN which you mean non-mmorpg games. You do not understand, that we are discussing the same thing, you are just unwilling (or too new) to understand that most of these things you speak of, are not mmorpg, but mmo's.. & we don't care about them. They are graphic arcades.
Can you imagine the whole entire world of Middle-earth rendered in open world, immense. & in It's entirety.. with incredible depth.
It cost you $25 a month, to try and make your mark.
Or, RIFT..?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I'm discussing MMORPG, there are hundreds of MMORPG"s now.
I have no problem with any developer making a great big game and charging for it. I'm playing EQ subbed right now (well one account is subbed).
You asked for reasons why, I gave them.
OMG... r u really that myopic..? Er, those^ game went to that business model.
NONE OF THEM are viable for the arguments you've been making. We are talking about a tried and true REALEASED as a free to play game. (That is of the same quality as a modern MMORPG)
Otherwise, you are just an unclever bridge hugger.
edit: How many of those "hundreds of MMORPG's.." are you playing each day, or are even worth your time... let-alone a discerning roleplayer's..?
We are not talking about those... we are talking about something above them, in the premium market. A premium world !!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I see.
So would you give that developer that is "making a great big game and charging for it" and support? And if they delivered, would you sub to that game @ $20~25/month ..? (assuming it met your expectations..?)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
All of them are viable arguments. They are all free to play games today, they impact the free to play and pay to play games today. They are competition for other free to play and pay to play games today. They impact the business models of the market today.
I'm only playing a few of those hundreds of MMORPG's a week. However how many games I'm playing is not the argument. Those games exist today, they are competitiong today.
And Age of Wushu has let you play f2p from day one.
If it was a fun game that I liked, wanted to play and a sub was the only way to pay for it, I would have no problems with paying it. To me the cost model is irrelevant (mostly). The only thing that matters is if I'm having fun and I like the game. If I do and the cost is not prohibitive I'll play it, sub, buy things in the shop with it...
I don't think I'm unusual with that. Maybe, but I don't think so. I don't think most people care too much about a few things in a shop or 15 dollars a month or so. It's just most people are enjoying the games free so why would they leave?
OK, how many premium MMORPGs do you see on the market...?
(btw: I edited my previous post.)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Ah now that is a different questions.
All the ones I stated I see as premium games (actually I'm still dubious about DCUO and VG, but that may just be a personal bias).
Others I guess would be Eve, AC, DAOC.
Dubious ones that could be considered premium due to cost, but maybe not premium due to implementation (VG falls in this category) are DDO, STO, TSW, War, GW (it's close enough to an MMORPG for me), GW2 probably others I haven't played.
Slightly secondary ones: Dragon Prophet, Darkfall.
Others I like, were considered premium at one time and are not, or have garnered more respect over time. Atitd, Istaria.
Ones I'm not sure about at all because they are not aimed at me, but are very successfull in their own right, with large enough budges behind them and running for years and years: Club Penguin.
Those are all or most of the ones I'm familiar with.
Note this was a list of games I consider premium or close to it. Some are f2p, some are p2p, most are mixed. I think I like the mixed most of all. I like choosing how to spend my money and that gives me the most choice IMO.
So you would play.
Then why argue against a premium game coming online..?
Edit: as to you post above^. I see it's is very difficult for you to name a premium MMORPG. That is because there really isn't one. Darkfall & Mortal Online came close... but towards the end of their development, they both moved away from their core designs, thus their core community and supporters.
Thus these game are bastardize versions, of what they could've been.
But even these are not the "Premium" style of gaming I am discussing. Perhaps you've played so many free games, you cannot envision a great game...?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I'm not arguing against a premium game coming online.
I'm arguing that the reasons you give of the market, of those that play f2p games and the reasons why f2p has gotten big are wrong.
Start a thread on that, I'll make you famous.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
An argument is made up of a statement or premise, reasons for that statement and a conclusion that is often a reflection of the statement.
I agree with your premise (wanting a premium sub game) however your reasons are flawed (the f2p market demographic, your selection and selection size, and views on money).
I like the concept of being able to speak with my money so that I reinforce the design decisions that create better content.
For instance Warframe. When or if DE would release some good anti-farmville content, I'd throw down $10.00. If they create some amazing new assets and content to go along with it as well as events to extend the life of that content, I'd throw down $30.00.
However I would never buy into a founder program, even if the USD/Plat ratio is higher, mainly because the founders program is a disgusting system that allows players to buy into power thus creating an idiosyncratic design council that follows the dumbest of baits on the forums.
Ultimately the game went full on Pay to Win(Pay or Wait 3 Months to get the same content as everyone else) with the release of Forma which no doubt some CoD baby from the design council thought that prestige was the best creation ever vomited from that series.
Can any game with a cash shop not be designed around the cash shop? I'd like to believe, but I think we all know the answer to that.
"I'd throw down $30.00."
A friend of mine made a similar comment^.
He an oldschool Battlefield player (BF1942/Vietnam/2) but was new to EA's Origin, & after the 4th expansion pack we kept telling him to buy.. he chimed in over vent (quite mad) and said something like this:
"This is such frustratring phucktardary.. I just put an new LSD on my Mustang yesterday & that is a lot easier than trying to keep up with these packs & games you guys want me to install & buy.
Why can't I just drop a grand at DICE's doorstep and say I am in, FOR LIFE..! (?)"
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in.
I play for free. Whales pays. Devs get a business. That is how it works.
Being an ex EQer i'll throw in my 2 cents......I played EQ from 2000-05......I bought several expansions and paid 15 bucks a month that whole time...I estimated I spent about 1500 dollars or so total......You can analyze "its only 15 dollars" all yo uwant but the reality of it is if you want to play for any length of time it isn't 15 dollars...its considerably more (as you can see)......Now we come to the point where we ask: Should I really pay several hundred dollars to play a video game for any length of time?
Lets take Skyrim.....I paid about 50 bucks for Skyrim.......I can play it as long as I like and it is still 50 dollars unless I buy some mod or it has an expansion pack or something....I cant say that about alot of p2p MMOs......Once I stop paying I have nothing.....Thats why f2p games now appeal to me more than p2ps.....It isnt that I cant afford 15 dollars, its that I dont want to pay for every single game I play and then have nothing when I stop......I dont have to do that with many other games, why should I have to do it with a MMO?...Its not like they offer above and beyond for that 15 dollars.
So in the end did I enjoy EQ1? yes I still play it occasionally but now I have the option of playing it for free....Would I start over fresh and pay 15 bucks a month again? no....I felt in the end I wasted my money.....Now I play f2ps and spend what I want, when I want, on what I want......Also if I dont feel like spending I can still play and that is the key.
One of the more sensible posts I've read in this entire thread.
This could end up being very interesting.
Pay attention to the conversation if you're going to comment on it. He was talking about the amount being made by F2P vs. Sub-based. I corrected his assumption.
Really the fact that you think 50% of players pay sheds light on why you're even bothering to argue about this. Knowing that these games survive on at most 30% payers, and typically 1-2% payers, is sort of the baseline knowledge to even enter a discussion on the model.
But what really matters is when you count up the various games and how many companies are being supported by F2P, compared with how many were supported by early subscription MMORPGs. It's a big difference, and indicates the general revenue being made, which is without a doubt more than pre-WOW MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There are a very select few old veterans on these forums who champion the F2P cause. I suspect it is because they want the freedom to play 15 different games in 15 different days. A sub would limit that freedom. It's all a bit hyperactive in my opinion, and that isn't something one outgrows. Whereas, I prefer to focus and set down roots in one game at a time. Add in a FPS too, but certainly not another MMORPG.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit