Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
There are a very select few old veterans on these forums who champion the F2P cause. I suspect it is because they want the freedom to play 15 different games in 15 different days. A sub would limit that freedom. It's all a bit hyperactive in my opinion, and that isn't something one outgrows. Whereas, I prefer to focus and set down roots in one game at a time. Add in a FPS too, but certainly not another MMORPG.
"champion" is a strong word .. certainly in my case.
My view is that i am enjoying F2P, and i will continue to do so but i am not going to shed a tear if it is going away tomorrow. There are plenty of entertainment out there. If MMOs decide to lock players in with subs and i don't like that, i will just leave and find my entertainment somewhere else.
And yes, F2P does provide the freedom to gamehop, which is in-line with my preference, and that is why i do it.
The MMORPG industry has changed into the MMO industry.
But the luminaries & oldschoolers who built this genre of gaming are now in the 30's & 40's. Brad McQuaid, John Smedley, Lord British and any of the people who played Meridain, Ultima & EQ. We are all adults now, all earning income & have homes, boats, sportscars, Jet ski's, etc..
So who exactly is asking for, & seeking out Free to Play games..?
It is children and adolescent youth from ages 12 ~22^ who have limited, or no source of income.
Just had my NFL draft this past weekend and looked around the room at many of my EQ guildmates and wondered why they would want a free game to play... So I asked. The response was unanimous "No!" They don't want to be troubled with "free realms" community & mentality. (easy is not challenging)
Your data sample appears skewed, as many ex-EQers seem to feel that if they aren't being regularly held back or penalized, then the content sucks. Of course they'd want to pay when given the option of pay or free.
However, since the conclusion you presented is stated as fact, it's entirely possible you're basing that on some kind of actual data. Could you link that, please?
The actual data is based on the fact, as people get older... they have more wealth. Thus more to spend.
You know (?), as these strange creatures called "adults" as the mature from adolescents. These adults tend to seek out more and more challenging things to quench their thirst.
The move from checkers, to chess... as their thinking and problem solving grow dynamically.
How old are you?
I my self, am a victim of the economy. I was laid off and money isn't there like it used to be. I am 47 and Do play F2P. I don't think people should judge a game by it being non subscription based. I know I am not the only one. Just because a person can afford subs or not does not mean they are a good, mature, or a better gamer. I know quite a few games that are sub based filled with assholes.
I am a old MMO player myself and wouldnt mind playing a hard game like the original EQ at launch. Money doesnt mean quality in MMO cases I am afraid. Look at SWTOR, good game, not great for the amount of money spent. I think what most older MMO players crave is something that is hard. When you die your anus sphincter has convulsions. Of course I love a good graphic game, pushing my PC to it's limits. But I want a game that is alive and unforgiving. One where a gold piece makes you rich. You can't solo the whole game, you need a group to fight another group of monsters or tough monsters. Where you need to walk/ride from point A to B and there is no instant teleporters. It takes days to level from 1 to 2. A dev that doesnt listen to the whiners but does it's own investigation and acts accordingly!
If this gets made the instant gratificaton crew won't play it, but I will!
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar its been stated many times allready. The quality of many free to play games is just as good or bad as pay to play games and it givea people choice on where and how to spend their money. Why wouldnt they choose free to play if the game they wantto play gives them thay choice
And ftp doesn't mean children. There is just as big a percentage in pay to play.
And you are dead wrong in why games went free to play. Nothing to do with kids. Everything to do with hundreds of games to choose from.
Please name one high quality, free to play game, comparable to a modern MMORPG..
Lord of the Rings Online. RIFT. The Secret World. City of Heroes before it closed.
I'm sure there are others but I can't be arsed to think of them right now.
If you don't want another MMORPG, then why are on these forums?
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I am a old MMO player myself and wouldnt mind playing a hard game like the original EQ at launch. Money doesnt mean quality in MMO cases I am afraid. Look at SWTOR, good game, not great for the amount of money spent. I think what most older MMO players crave is something that is hard. When you die your anus sphincter has convulsions. Of course I love a good graphic game, pushing my PC to it's limits. But I want a game that is alive and unforgiving. One where a gold piece makes you rich. You can't solo the whole game, you need a group to fight another group of monsters or tough monsters. Where you need to walk/ride from point A to B and there is no instant teleporters. It takes days to level from 1 to 2. A dev that doesnt listen to the whiners but does it's own investigation and acts accordingly!
If this gets made the instant gratificaton crew won't play it, but I will!
I am older as well and I, as well am looking for something special. To date, no F2P game has offered that and few P2P games have much either. I do not like cash cows. Games where you gotta pay to get the good stuff. Someone said that a P2P is renting a game, I disagree. The Software is the license and the Sub is the content, the CS, the persistence and access to everything regardless of how I play.
I am a hardliner, I like contested content and burning real time to get somewhere or accomplish something cool. But that's just me. I'm patient and willing to wait my turn. People (Note I didn't say all!) now complain about lack of time (in other words, attention span), lack of money (but yet burn cash on F2P ingame stuff and content). In EQ there was some greatness and some flaws but it grabbed you. It's unyielding addiction factor made you log in. It took a long time to level and it forced you to cooperate, be a nice person and help out your fellows or you simply didn't succeed. So I can see how people are now flocking to Solo and Molo games like GW2. Pixels and asshatery at its finest without having to be considerate.
F2P games are constantly flaunting goods to buy all over the place and there are alot of people who seem to be willing to part with their coin in those games yet groan about a sub? I prefer to earn my pixels in the game or just not have it. But I can see the lure of having access to a cash shop when you're just not capable either by not having buds, patience or ability to get in game things the old fashioned way...by playing the game.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
I will give you a simple reason why an adult gamer even a hard core one would play a FREE game over a P2P game. The answer is stress. Subscriptions become just another bill one has to worry about. There is always this stress factor over the question "am I getting my money's worth." Back in the day I used to maintain multiple subs to Everquest, EQ2, Lineage II. Maintaining these subs was more than just $15/mo it was more like $60/mo and sometimes I would only spend a couple hours in one of the games but spend 40 hours in another. Then it would be flipped the next month. This was a big factor in eventually canceling some of those subs. When those games went FREE to play it became mush less stressful to maintain those gaming accounts. I could pay $50 one month and then $0 the next. This type of freedom is wonderful thing you can't put a price on.
Originally posted by Velocinox Originally posted by Arclan not another MMORPG.
If you don't want another MMORPG, then why are on these forums?
I meant that I prefer to dedicate myself to one MMORPG at a time, not two or more.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
If you don't want another MMORPG, then why are on these forums?
I meant that I prefer to dedicate myself to one MMORPG at a time, not two or more.
I know what you meant, I was taking your statement out of context deliberately to illustrate how out of context quotes can be used to manipulate the quoted posters intent.
Much like snipping and entire post and only using, '...I am older than you.'
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar its been stated many times allready. The quality of many free to play games is just as good or bad as pay to play games and it givea people choice on where and how to spend their money. Why wouldnt they choose free to play if the game they wantto play gives them thay choice
And ftp doesn't mean children. There is just as big a percentage in pay to play.
And you are dead wrong in why games went free to play. Nothing to do with kids. Everything to do with hundreds of games to choose from.
Please name one high quality, free to play game, comparable to a modern MMORPG..
Lord of the Rings Online. RIFT. The Secret World. City of Heroes before it closed.
I'm sure there are others but I can't be arsed to think of them right now.
Allods, Mabinogi, Eden Eternal, Wizard 101, Free Realms
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Velocinox Originally posted by ArclanOriginally posted by VelocinoxOriginally posted by Arclan not another MMORPG.
If you don't want another MMORPG, then why are on these forums?I meant that I prefer to dedicate myself to one MMORPG at a time, not two or more.I know what you meant, I was taking your statement out of context deliberately to illustrate how out of context quotes can be used to manipulate the quoted posters intent.
Much like snipping and entire post and only using, '...I am older than you.'
Oh I thought you just didn't get it.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
You are talking about revenues, or players..? Because they ONLY go hand-in-hand when you are talking about subscription based model, not free to play games. 50% of the people who play free games, do not buy anything. They are just there playing and taking up resources.
I have played nearly every free game there was... created a char, ran around, never log in again. Most everyone "tries" a free game... that is not revenue.. those people are a negative asset.
THESE DEVELOPERS MAKE MONEY, because of the mass influx of WoW refugees storm their cheap server farm and load them up on cash.
THAT HAS NOTHING to do with having a good game to play for 10 years... while others will play 5 free games in a 10 year period.
Pay attention to the conversation if you're going to comment on it. He was talking about the amount being made by F2P vs. Sub-based. I corrected his assumption.
Really the fact that you think 50% of players pay sheds light on why you're even bothering to argue about this. Knowing that these games survive on at most 30% payers, and typically 1-2% payers, is sort of the baseline knowledge to even enter a discussion on the model.
But what really matters is when you count up the various games and how many companies are being supported by F2P, compared with how many were supported by early subscription MMORPGs. It's a big difference, and indicates the general revenue being made, which is without a doubt more than pre-WOW MMORPGs.
I don't deny any of that^.
I was being generous with my % argument, so that even trolls won't chime in. The point is made though, that games that are free to play are fine... for those that like GAMES..!
In the MMORPG arena, the Free to play model is yet unproven. We know that is is a viable alternative for Developers that have semi-flops on their hand, and must downsize and merge servers (to recoup massive costs).. so going FREE TO PLAY... allows for a massive influx of cash. But all that does overrides the capability of the developers and people peter-out on content and move to the NEXT free to play game.
It's arcade.. and throw away. You... your character... nothing matters.
I bought two GW2 CE's... the game cannot hold my interest, because the action combat is worse than BF3 and tries to be all console'ee.. for the sake of revenues, at a loss of gameplay dynamics. (than being about roleplaying and random chance)
The GW2 community is stagnant, & has no permanent community.
That is what "cheap" brings with it.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
The MMORPG industry has changed into the MMO industry.
But the luminaries & oldschoolers who built this genre of gaming are now in the 30's & 40's. Brad McQuaid, John Smedley, Lord British and any of the people who played Meridain, Ultima & EQ. We are all adults now, all earning income & have homes, boats, sportscars, Jet ski's, etc..
So who exactly is asking for, & seeking out Free to Play games..?
It is children and adolescent youth from ages 12 ~22^ who have limited, or no source of income.
Just had my NFL draft this past weekend and looked around the room at many of my EQ guildmates and wondered why they would want a free game to play... So I asked. The response was unanimous "No!" They don't want to be troubled with "free realms" community & mentality. (easy is not challenging)
Your data sample appears skewed, as many ex-EQers seem to feel that if they aren't being regularly held back or penalized, then the content sucks. Of course they'd want to pay when given the option of pay or free.
However, since the conclusion you presented is stated as fact, it's entirely possible you're basing that on some kind of actual data. Could you link that, please?
The actual data is based on the fact, as people get older... they have more wealth. Thus more to spend.
You know (?), as these strange creatures called "adults" as the mature from adolescents. These adults tend to seek out more and more challenging things to quench their thirst.
The move from checkers, to chess... as their thinking and problem solving grow dynamically.
How old are you?
I my self, am a victim of the economy. I was laid off and money isn't there like it used to be. I am 47 and Do play F2P. I don't think people should judge a game by it being non subscription based. I know I am not the only one. Just because a person can afford subs or not does not mean they are a good, mature, or a better gamer. I know quite a few games that are sub based filled with assholes.
That's My opinion
So you support such games, it's just that currently you wouldn't want to afford such a luxury..?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
I meant that I prefer to dedicate myself to one MMORPG at a time, not two or more.
Sure you do.
I wonder how big of the market will do so. Personally i won't "dedicate" myself to any entertainment, not to mention MMORPGs.
Why not? People dedicate themselves to a TV show and to TV in general? I do not really even watch TV anymore. I joined EQ on April 23, 1999 and have been in and out of it ever since. For several years I had a group of friends and we were all in a guild together. That WAS what I dedicated my free time to because that is what the game and the comradery required. If I wasn’t there they had to find someone to take my place. (Instead of just hiring a MercBot) So I tried to be there and all of that was very addicting. Made me sub it for years without pause.
Like all things though, things change, my time was not always there and thus I could not dedicate myself to it. If I could have I sure as s**t would still be playing it. That is why games are now ‘max level’ in 2 weeks. They are small, little things. Created like a single player game for console gamers. Little depth, little contest, little required strategy. Now the mode of the day is Solo and Molo. Not only can you get through the game in 2 weeks or less, you can now do it by yourself? Sorry, I’m not seeing a great game in this model regardless if its F2P or P2P.
Right now I’m looking back into EQII because I have abou 2 ½ hours a night to play something and It’s not gunna be Rift or GW2, I can tell you that. I’m waiting on TESO myself. EQN looks and sounds cheesy as hell. Big surprise when they use their landmark feature as a selling point for the game. I do like crafting but I’m not going to sit around and move stones around and plant a flag into the ground.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
I like how because of my age, I'm being treated as a lesser being.... Because apparently my efforts and opinions are not of value due to my low income and age? Ummmmm...Doesn't that sound a bit childish?
And yeah, I've got a student loan near 50, 000 I have to repay, I can't pay rent working three jobs and with six roommates...WIth a degree, making minimum wage. I likely will never have a penny to my name, and pretty much all my money I do make goes towards bills or my student loans cause I tried to make something better for myself rather than be just another Jane and Finch Guttersnipe...
So excuse me Mr. OldandRich if I want a free experience for the 1 or 2 hours I get off a week? I'd rather save my money for food, and rent, and necessities...and every once in awhile, every few years...with the ten or twenty dollars I get to keep from my paycheck compounded, update my computer.
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis--- NZXT Phantom 410 Case Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0 Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
Not me, The games have been so bad with zero to almost no innovation for years though. I will not pay for another quest, battleground, dungeon, mmorpg that has the unmitigated gall to charge me 50$+ for a digital download of repackaged, and renamed, same old same.
I've happily payed 9$ a month since April for Wushu and I didn't have to pay a box fee. I hoping that one of these new big name titles can offer a pvp 1st, pve 2nd player like me more. Hell, it doesn't even have to be more, but I wont take less. If they can do that, I will happily pay them too.
As for me, my biased view is that with previous subscription-based models there was a gaming-defined-by-the-gaming-community sense that we were getting a premium service. I cannot put it into words right now and expand it further, but there was a sense that we were getting exactly for what we were paying off most of the time. Whether it was from customer support response, to server maintenance, to updates to other things. I do understand that my opinion on this is controversial and highly debatable.
But subscription-based models in a way legitimized us gamers to be able to push out more and make our demands more justified since we were are paying the same amount for the same game. So as a whole, it games us the feeling that we were able to be more demanding and we expected companies to actually listen to us and not have to go through empty promises. It gave us an identity of power to act as a pressuring consumer group.
On the other hand, free-to-play models has changed that perception turning into masses defending more and more the companies since "You are playing a game that is free. Ergo, you should not demand more than something that you didn't pay for". I simply do not think that are voices in free-to-play-models or buy-to-play are stronger right now nor our concerns because at the end of the day even if X number of players leave, others will arrive to taste the sweat honey of being a freeloader. I just do not think we can have more legit saying anymore than we used to have in the past.
One positive aspect of all types of free to play models is that casual players or hardcore players who can not invest the same amount of time they used to in comparison with every-day-8-hours-straight players is that they are able to always keep on par the game progress by throwing now and again a few bucks. Some gamers prefer to pay for things they do not want to waste their time on and progress from that while others prefer to use their cash flow and make their character more appealing. How each player spends his money is up to the gamer and no judgement should be made. It is private matters.
I meant that I prefer to dedicate myself to one MMORPG at a time, not two or more.
Sure you do.
I wonder how big of the market will do so. Personally i won't "dedicate" myself to any entertainment, not to mention MMORPGs.
Why not? People dedicate themselves to a TV show and to TV in general?
Because I prefer not to? There is so many types of entertainment i enjoy that i prefer to split my time between them. If so, i cannot say I "dedicate" myself to any entertainment. Real work, OTOH, is another matter.
Oh, don't get me wrong ... i will watch all the episodes of Homeland, Dexter, Arrow, (and likely the upcoming Agents of Shield) and even talk about them in some forum. But that is far from what i will call "dedication".
As for me, my biased view is that with previous subscription-based models there was a gaming-defined-by-the-gaming-community sense that we were getting a premium service. I cannot put it into words right now and expand it further, but there was a sense that we were getting exactly for what we were paying off most of the time. Whether it was from customer support response, to server maintenance, to updates to other things. I do understand that my opinion on this is controversial and highly debatable.
But subscription-based models in a way legitimized us gamers to be able to push out more and make our demands more justified since we were are paying the same amount for the same game. So as a whole, it games us the feeling that we were able to be more demanding and we expected companies to actually listen to us and not have to go through empty promises. It gave us an identity of power to act as a pressuring consumer group.
On the other hand, free-to-play models has changed that perception turning into masses defending more and more the companies since "You are playing a game that is free. Ergo, you should not demand more than something that you didn't pay for". I simply do not think that are voices in free-to-play-models or buy-to-play are stronger right now nor our concerns because at the end of the day even if X number of players leave, others will arrive to taste the sweat honey of being a freeloader. I just do not think we can have more legit saying anymore than we used to have in the past.
One positive aspect of all types of free to play models is that casual players or hardcore players who can not invest the same amount of time they used to in comparison with every-day-8-hours-straight players is that they are able to always keep on par the game progress by throwing now and again a few bucks. Some gamers prefer to pay for things they do not want to waste their time on and progress from that while others prefer to use their cash flow and make their character more appealing. How each player spends his money is up to the gamer and no judgement should be made. It is private matters.
Revenues... revenues..
But unfortunately, revenues only tell how well the Developers (& investors) like that game, not the players. Revenues do not decide how well a player likes subs, or item mall. Revenues are more based on marketing, than actual product. They might not even like the game they are playing, but it is free... and they are bored.
But, everything in those links was written by an oldschool peer. It adds very little to this conversation.
Buying items in game to keep the game afloat is the dumbest business model for a true MMORPG. Great business model for a developer, so he doesn't get fired for misdeveloping RIFT. But then again, RIFT wasn't worth monthly sub, & that's is why it went free to play. Because it had less worth, to the players. (It was worth free)
But RIFT has ZERO future so why would anyone continue to play when their character has no future? They play because it's an acrade game and the farthest thing from a premium game one can have.
I don't need to reward my character, with $5 gift, from myself. That is not a reward to him... Or to myself. It's just me spending $5 on a trinket, so I can feel good about my character.
But, that doesn't change my character deeds, or add any more accomplishments to him. I could spend $500 the first day on my character.. after that, why play a free to play game after I am already moAr better than everyone else. Nobody is going to look or have what I have. I WIN.
But, I can already do that in real life... and perhaps that is why children like item mall games, because it like playing house and they feel comfortable and can buy things that make them feel (personally) better. Because they can't buy that new car in real life... they will most certain buy that bad-azz flying Pegasus.
F2P = this:
Kids can't buy that Jet Ski they want, but Friday night they made up for it, by showing those in that dungeon.... when he spent $17 on that dark-metal shield, that his other teenage friends wanted & have been raving about @ school for weeks.. that he now has.
With that $17 he is the envy of someone... and that all that matters. (He is trying to serve his ego.)
VS
As an adult walks out of his house, gets in his Tahoe and trailers his boat to the water... thinking about buying that new Jet Ski that just came out. Because he gave his old JetSki to a nephew..
That is the difference between a 17 year old (just starting out in life teenager) VS a 43 year old who is a 18 year MMO veteran.
Simply put, someone making $50~$100k a year, a person is not concerned Or defined by a $5 trinket in a game. They are looking for the challenge & adventure... adults can already go to the mall and buy all the crap we want, no need to do it in game.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Ten bucks says this thread turns into a heated debate about what "dedication" actually means, and whether or not it can be applied to MMO gaming. Have fun with that, guys.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by Cecropia Ten bucks says this thread turns into a heated debate about what "dedication" actually means, and whether or not it can be applied to MMO gaming. Have fun with that, guys.
Isn't that why people are here? Have fun debating?
You don't think people are actually here to exchange ideas, learn and try to reach consensus, do you?
Originally posted by Cecropia Ten bucks says this thread turns into a heated debate about what "dedication" actually means, and whether or not it can be applied to MMO gaming. Have fun with that, guys.
er.. "Dedication" can be applied to anything.
There are dedicated crocheters in Russia... & dedicated qigong master's in china.. & dedicated EQ crafters in Korea.. all making a living of their dedication.
But, that is all for another thread. (thnx for thread-crapping tho)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
That is the difference between a 17 year old (just starting out in life teenager) VS a 43 year old who is a 18 year MMO veteran.
Simply put, someone making $50~$100k a year, a person is not concerned Or defined by a $5 trinket in a game. They are looking for the challenge & adventure... adults can already go to the mall and buy all the crap we want, no need to do it in game.
And the difference between a 43 year old that doesn't concern himself about tossing away small amounts of money and one who does is a 43 year old with a ton of money he is reinvesting so he can retire by the time he is 50.
Have fun working until you die.
Man, I really love people who think so highly of themselves yet put so little thought into life. So please, come back with $15 doesn't make a difference in the long run so I can come back and point out how you obviously don't limit your foolish spending to just MMOs.
Comments
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Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
"champion" is a strong word .. certainly in my case.
My view is that i am enjoying F2P, and i will continue to do so but i am not going to shed a tear if it is going away tomorrow. There are plenty of entertainment out there. If MMOs decide to lock players in with subs and i don't like that, i will just leave and find my entertainment somewhere else.
And yes, F2P does provide the freedom to gamehop, which is in-line with my preference, and that is why i do it.
I my self, am a victim of the economy. I was laid off and money isn't there like it used to be. I am 47 and Do play F2P. I don't think people should judge a game by it being non subscription based. I know I am not the only one. Just because a person can afford subs or not does not mean they are a good, mature, or a better gamer. I know quite a few games that are sub based filled with assholes.
That's My opinion
Lord of the Rings Online. RIFT. The Secret World. City of Heroes before it closed.
I'm sure there are others but I can't be arsed to think of them right now.
If you don't want another MMORPG, then why are on these forums?
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I am older as well and I, as well am looking for something special. To date, no F2P game has offered that and few P2P games have much either. I do not like cash cows. Games where you gotta pay to get the good stuff. Someone said that a P2P is renting a game, I disagree. The Software is the license and the Sub is the content, the CS, the persistence and access to everything regardless of how I play.
I am a hardliner, I like contested content and burning real time to get somewhere or accomplish something cool. But that's just me. I'm patient and willing to wait my turn. People (Note I didn't say all!) now complain about lack of time (in other words, attention span), lack of money (but yet burn cash on F2P ingame stuff and content). In EQ there was some greatness and some flaws but it grabbed you. It's unyielding addiction factor made you log in. It took a long time to level and it forced you to cooperate, be a nice person and help out your fellows or you simply didn't succeed. So I can see how people are now flocking to Solo and Molo games like GW2. Pixels and asshatery at its finest without having to be considerate.
F2P games are constantly flaunting goods to buy all over the place and there are alot of people who seem to be willing to part with their coin in those games yet groan about a sub? I prefer to earn my pixels in the game or just not have it. But I can see the lure of having access to a cash shop when you're just not capable either by not having buds, patience or ability to get in game things the old fashioned way...by playing the game.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
I meant that I prefer to dedicate myself to one MMORPG at a time, not two or more.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I know what you meant, I was taking your statement out of context deliberately to illustrate how out of context quotes can be used to manipulate the quoted posters intent.
Much like snipping and entire post and only using, '...I am older than you.'
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Allods, Mabinogi, Eden Eternal, Wizard 101, Free Realms
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I meant that I prefer to dedicate myself to one MMORPG at a time, not two or more.
I know what you meant, I was taking your statement out of context deliberately to illustrate how out of context quotes can be used to manipulate the quoted posters intent.
Much like snipping and entire post and only using, '...I am older than you.'
Oh I thought you just didn't get it.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I don't deny any of that^.
I was being generous with my % argument, so that even trolls won't chime in. The point is made though, that games that are free to play are fine... for those that like GAMES..!
In the MMORPG arena, the Free to play model is yet unproven. We know that is is a viable alternative for Developers that have semi-flops on their hand, and must downsize and merge servers (to recoup massive costs).. so going FREE TO PLAY... allows for a massive influx of cash. But all that does overrides the capability of the developers and people peter-out on content and move to the NEXT free to play game.
It's arcade.. and throw away. You... your character... nothing matters.
I bought two GW2 CE's... the game cannot hold my interest, because the action combat is worse than BF3 and tries to be all console'ee.. for the sake of revenues, at a loss of gameplay dynamics. (than being about roleplaying and random chance)
The GW2 community is stagnant, & has no permanent community.
That is what "cheap" brings with it.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
So you support such games, it's just that currently you wouldn't want to afford such a luxury..?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Sure you do.
I wonder how big of the market will do so. Personally i won't "dedicate" myself to any entertainment, not to mention MMORPGs.
Why not? People dedicate themselves to a TV show and to TV in general? I do not really even watch TV anymore. I joined EQ on April 23, 1999 and have been in and out of it ever since. For several years I had a group of friends and we were all in a guild together. That WAS what I dedicated my free time to because that is what the game and the comradery required. If I wasn’t there they had to find someone to take my place. (Instead of just hiring a MercBot) So I tried to be there and all of that was very addicting. Made me sub it for years without pause.
Like all things though, things change, my time was not always there and thus I could not dedicate myself to it. If I could have I sure as s**t would still be playing it. That is why games are now ‘max level’ in 2 weeks. They are small, little things. Created like a single player game for console gamers. Little depth, little contest, little required strategy. Now the mode of the day is Solo and Molo. Not only can you get through the game in 2 weeks or less, you can now do it by yourself? Sorry, I’m not seeing a great game in this model regardless if its F2P or P2P.
Right now I’m looking back into EQII because I have abou 2 ½ hours a night to play something and It’s not gunna be Rift or GW2, I can tell you that. I’m waiting on TESO myself. EQN looks and sounds cheesy as hell. Big surprise when they use their landmark feature as a selling point for the game. I do like crafting but I’m not going to sit around and move stones around and plant a flag into the ground.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
I like how because of my age, I'm being treated as a lesser being.... Because apparently my efforts and opinions are not of value due to my low income and age? Ummmmm...Doesn't that sound a bit childish?
And yeah, I've got a student loan near 50, 000 I have to repay, I can't pay rent working three jobs and with six roommates...WIth a degree, making minimum wage. I likely will never have a penny to my name, and pretty much all my money I do make goes towards bills or my student loans cause I tried to make something better for myself rather than be just another Jane and Finch Guttersnipe...
So excuse me Mr. OldandRich if I want a free experience for the 1 or 2 hours I get off a week? I'd rather save my money for food, and rent, and necessities...and every once in awhile, every few years...with the ten or twenty dollars I get to keep from my paycheck compounded, update my computer.
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis---
NZXT Phantom 410 Case
Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz
Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard
Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0
Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
Not me, The games have been so bad with zero to almost no innovation for years though. I will not pay for another quest, battleground, dungeon, mmorpg that has the unmitigated gall to charge me 50$+ for a digital download of repackaged, and renamed, same old same.
I've happily payed 9$ a month since April for Wushu and I didn't have to pay a box fee. I hoping that one of these new big name titles can offer a pvp 1st, pve 2nd player like me more. Hell, it doesn't even have to be more, but I wont take less. If they can do that, I will happily pay them too.
Some food for thought, regarding subscription versus free to play models;
http://gamegeex.blogomancer.com/post/1349/gaming-mechanics-subscription-based-vs-free-to-play-mmos/ & http://www.gamebreaker.tv/chat-bubble/free-to-play-buy-to-play-or-subscription/
As for me, my biased view is that with previous subscription-based models there was a gaming-defined-by-the-gaming-community sense that we were getting a premium service. I cannot put it into words right now and expand it further, but there was a sense that we were getting exactly for what we were paying off most of the time. Whether it was from customer support response, to server maintenance, to updates to other things. I do understand that my opinion on this is controversial and highly debatable.
But subscription-based models in a way legitimized us gamers to be able to push out more and make our demands more justified since we were are paying the same amount for the same game. So as a whole, it games us the feeling that we were able to be more demanding and we expected companies to actually listen to us and not have to go through empty promises. It gave us an identity of power to act as a pressuring consumer group.
On the other hand, free-to-play models has changed that perception turning into masses defending more and more the companies since "You are playing a game that is free. Ergo, you should not demand more than something that you didn't pay for". I simply do not think that are voices in free-to-play-models or buy-to-play are stronger right now nor our concerns because at the end of the day even if X number of players leave, others will arrive to taste the sweat honey of being a freeloader. I just do not think we can have more legit saying anymore than we used to have in the past.
One positive aspect of all types of free to play models is that casual players or hardcore players who can not invest the same amount of time they used to in comparison with every-day-8-hours-straight players is that they are able to always keep on par the game progress by throwing now and again a few bucks. Some gamers prefer to pay for things they do not want to waste their time on and progress from that while others prefer to use their cash flow and make their character more appealing. How each player spends his money is up to the gamer and no judgement should be made. It is private matters.
http://massauthority.blogspot.co.uk/
Because I prefer not to? There is so many types of entertainment i enjoy that i prefer to split my time between them. If so, i cannot say I "dedicate" myself to any entertainment. Real work, OTOH, is another matter.
Oh, don't get me wrong ... i will watch all the episodes of Homeland, Dexter, Arrow, (and likely the upcoming Agents of Shield) and even talk about them in some forum. But that is far from what i will call "dedication".
Revenues... revenues..
But unfortunately, revenues only tell how well the Developers (& investors) like that game, not the players. Revenues do not decide how well a player likes subs, or item mall. Revenues are more based on marketing, than actual product. They might not even like the game they are playing, but it is free... and they are bored.
But, everything in those links was written by an oldschool peer. It adds very little to this conversation.
Buying items in game to keep the game afloat is the dumbest business model for a true MMORPG. Great business model for a developer, so he doesn't get fired for misdeveloping RIFT. But then again, RIFT wasn't worth monthly sub, & that's is why it went free to play. Because it had less worth, to the players. (It was worth free)
But RIFT has ZERO future so why would anyone continue to play when their character has no future? They play because it's an acrade game and the farthest thing from a premium game one can have.
I don't need to reward my character, with $5 gift, from myself. That is not a reward to him... Or to myself. It's just me spending $5 on a trinket, so I can feel good about my character.
But, that doesn't change my character deeds, or add any more accomplishments to him. I could spend $500 the first day on my character.. after that, why play a free to play game after I am already moAr better than everyone else. Nobody is going to look or have what I have. I WIN.
But, I can already do that in real life... and perhaps that is why children like item mall games, because it like playing house and they feel comfortable and can buy things that make them feel (personally) better. Because they can't buy that new car in real life... they will most certain buy that bad-azz flying Pegasus.
F2P = this:
Kids can't buy that Jet Ski they want, but Friday night they made up for it, by showing those in that dungeon.... when he spent $17 on that dark-metal shield, that his other teenage friends wanted & have been raving about @ school for weeks.. that he now has.
With that $17 he is the envy of someone... and that all that matters. (He is trying to serve his ego.)
VS
As an adult walks out of his house, gets in his Tahoe and trailers his boat to the water... thinking about buying that new Jet Ski that just came out. Because he gave his old JetSki to a nephew..
That is the difference between a 17 year old (just starting out in life teenager) VS a 43 year old who is a 18 year MMO veteran.
Simply put, someone making $50~$100k a year, a person is not concerned Or defined by a $5 trinket in a game. They are looking for the challenge & adventure... adults can already go to the mall and buy all the crap we want, no need to do it in game.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Isn't that why people are here? Have fun debating?
You don't think people are actually here to exchange ideas, learn and try to reach consensus, do you?
er.. "Dedication" can be applied to anything.
There are dedicated crocheters in Russia... & dedicated qigong master's in china.. & dedicated EQ crafters in Korea.. all making a living of their dedication.
But, that is all for another thread. (thnx for thread-crapping tho)
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
And the difference between a 43 year old that doesn't concern himself about tossing away small amounts of money and one who does is a 43 year old with a ton of money he is reinvesting so he can retire by the time he is 50.
Have fun working until you die.
Man, I really love people who think so highly of themselves yet put so little thought into life. So please, come back with $15 doesn't make a difference in the long run so I can come back and point out how you obviously don't limit your foolish spending to just MMOs.
Simply put, a fool and his money are soon parted.