Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by ScotThere's nothing like a bad metaphor and some condescension to get the day going.Of course MMOs have come on leaps and bounds as well. It is the better in every way crowd that I question. As to the difficulty level, gaming overall was harder. Saying you can find a few games which have hard modes does not cut it. Not everything old school was better by any means, the lack of grouping strategy now needed is a loss, corpse runs are not.
I agree, games in general have become easier. But as long as I am provided with alternate difficulty options, I am not really bothered by it. I am happy to play my games on harder difficulty settings. However it was worse back in the day when there was only one mode which was hard.
And regarding grouping, people are merely playing the game the way they want. If they want to solo, so be it. Most players play alone most of the time. There's no point fighting it.
I'd like to believe that as well, but It's just simply not the case for me, games with difficulty sliders aren't as good, I believe, as games with a solid difficulty. If you make the game harder, your simply making it more difficult, if there's an obstacle you can't pass on hard, you can't help but lower it rather than trying for hours to bypass it.
In a perfectly disciplined person who would sit there for hours then good for them, but I personally don't believe in them. I ofc play games with difficulty options but it just doesn't work out well.
A difficulty option in an MMO is a no go though. I can say that, purposely increasing the difficulty on yourself when there's other people and competition involved is just wayyy too carebear. That should hopefully not happen in future titles.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
I am keen on different difficulty settings in solo games but you can't do that in a MMO. I would question the underlining difficulty in some franchises as well. Franchises which are taking genres down a path they are setting out. Take CoD a game where you can send in your squad and they can sometimes do the level for you. That's not a question of difficulty, it is a question of how the game has been set up, with handholding becoming so extreme you do not need to play.
Of course you can, and it has been done before. WOW has 3 levels of raiding. DDO has difficulty levels in dungeons. You can argue it is not done enough, but certainly it is not only can be done, it has been done multiple times.
CoD is just one game. Take any stealth game, no NPC is doing anything for you.
I will not support something just because most people do it, that is a strange way to decide your opinions. But on the grouping issue I am referring to the dumping down of the technique as much as lack of grouping. MMO's are too solo and what grouping there is has less strategy.
I agree. That is why i am not shy from stating that i like solo MMORPGs, despite most here do not like it.
Difficulty levels in dungeons is not the same as difficulty levels in a whole MMO. So sure you can ramp up the hardcore in a dungeon but in 95% or more of the MMO it is all one difficulty level and has to be.
I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.
The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
I pose a question for you, How many New school players have even played an oldschool MMO back in its glory days maybe 10% or so if that. So how can somone determin wether or noth there a player base to be financially viable when 90% of these new player only know one thing and thats WoW and its Clones cause nothing else. Ive been talking to alot of people and broqsing many game forums and 95% of what ive talked to would like to see somthing that isnt a WoW clone so maybe an oldschool style MMO would be that breath of new air these people have been waiting for.
The games don't need to go back to their original, tedious, long-grinded roots to be successful community-driven games again.
I agree. Just have good story content, sell it, and let players finish and move on.
Produce more content to sell them to get them to pay more. GW1, GW2 are doing so, as well as many SP games with DLCs. MMOs should learn something from that.
Man i dislike players like yourself. You want a half assed game where you blow through the content waitng for the next DLC payment. A mmorpg should be engagning enough that the players are never bored of the core elements, features, and content and when the developers do add to the game it adds more depth.
I think this analogy works: What we should be getting is a mutli layer cake, but instead we get a single slice of cake with stale cake bread and too much frosting and each WoW clone is the same stale bread, but a different flavor of frosting. A mmorpg should be a layered cake with, fruit, frosting, different cake batters, and all the bells and whistles.
The reason why SW :TOR died was the exactly things you are wanting in a mmorpg. This genre is not for you.
Want to see the next big mmorpg ? Instead of TESO being linear and restrictive: make it open, immersive sandbox like Skyrim. Add elements to the game from other sandbox mmorpgs like territory control and guild vs guild pvp. Sandbox mmorpgs have already been shown to be highly profitable and yearned after through past mmorpgs and other games like Elder scroll and Grand theft auto. There is a massive amount of players bored with themeparks and the WoW model in general and would litterally throw money at their monitor to play a true, deep, engaging, long-lasting sandbox mmorpg.
Casual players want more games built around themselves so they can get instant gratification. I wholeheartily believe mainstream and causuals ruined this genre and I never played the UO and SWG in their prime. Just from player shard servers, sandbox games and runescape I"ve learned this.
Casual players want more games built around themselves so they can get instant gratification. I wholeheartily believe mainstream and causuals ruined this genre and I never played the UO and SWG in their prime. Just from player shard servers, sandbox games and runescape I"ve learned this.
It is always amusing to see people claim that 'casuals' ruined the genre.
Yeah, they ruined it by making MMO one of the largest money making genre and also allowing people to say 'I play MMOs' and not be judged as 'not normal' by society. /Sarcasm
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I am keen on different difficulty settings in solo games but you can't do that in a MMO. I would question the underlining difficulty in some franchises as well. Franchises which are taking genres down a path they are setting out. Take CoD a game where you can send in your squad and they can sometimes do the level for you. That's not a question of difficulty, it is a question of how the game has been set up, with handholding becoming so extreme you do not need to play.
I will not support something just because most people do it, that is a strange way to decide your opinions. But on the grouping issue I am referring to the dumping down of the technique as much as lack of grouping. MMO's are too solo and what grouping there is has less strategy.
Open world content has never been hard. Most often the insistence on trinity varies. Sometimes its mandatory, sometimes not, but you can always rely on that the trinity beats everything. Not much strategy I'd say.
Increasing the incoming damage and mob HP to a level where a tank becomes mandatory, healer to keep him alive and DPS specialized classes to eat through that HP pool in a sensible enough time is not my idea of a challenge.
You can probably tell I am quite tired of it. Sure you can garnish it with stuff, but the core stays the same.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Gameplay mechanics in EQ was total crap. Horrible combat system, bland classes, leveling is all about grind, camps, long running. Many players adore it since it was their first MMORPG (people always have warm feeling about their first). But truth is - you wouldnt want game like this now.
Same thing with many other old MMOs. Genre is evolving and we need completely new mechanics, not turning back to same old crap
Originally posted by jpnz I don't care what it used to be about. Advocating that certain players shouldn't play a genre of games is awful.
I'm sure it'll work though /sarcasm
No one is saying certain players should not play. He just stated what mmos were designed to be and the type of player they were designed to make happy. Of course that has all changed and people can argue why that changed till the end of time and they probably will. Todays mmos are not about creating a living breathing world that players feel a part of, it is all about making a buck the fastest way possible and making a shallow no content game, throwing some fluff in a cash shop (or outright pay to win) and making all the money they can off people too stupid to realize they just bought a polished turd. People have been spending tons of money on stupid stuff at least Michael Jordan first debuted the Air Jordan shoe, 115 bucks back for the same sneaker you could get for 25 dollars with another company. MMOS are no different and quite frankly I am pretty convinced the human race is getting even dumber so this trend will continue. I remember the old school mmos quite fondly, some things about them I didn't like, mainly the long tedious grinds, I don't mind hard or complex but make it fun in the process but the gameplay overall was much better than it is today. Luckily we got a few games coming out that seem to want to try to revive the pay to play model as well as the old school model of work for what you get rather than the new school philosophy of we know you will leave soon so here is some epic gear for logging in. People gamehop so much these days because mmos are just shallow with no content. Look at TSW, great setting, great game, for about 30 hours. MMOs were designed to be games that were played long term, but companies are making them to be played as single player games. The design vs intended functionality is what is out of place right now and has been for quite a while.
I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.
The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
I pose a question for you, How many New school players have even played an oldschool MMO back in its glory days maybe 10% or so if that. So how can somone determin wether or noth there a player base to be financially viable when 90% of these new player only know one thing and thats WoW and its Clones cause nothing else. Ive been talking to alot of people and broqsing many game forums and 95% of what ive talked to would like to see somthing that isnt a WoW clone so maybe an oldschool style MMO would be that breath of new air these people have been waiting for.
If those older MMOs didn't exist anymore, you'd have a valid point. However, not only do they exist but they have been updated, expanded and improved to even more massively content-filled versions of what they are before. They are bigger and better than 'back in the day' and most new players still prefer the newer MMOs.
If new MMOs gamers were logging into EQ, UO, AC and DAoC instead of WOW and LOTRO, devs would be making more EQs, UOs, ACs and DAoCs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I am keen on different difficulty settings in solo games but you can't do that in a MMO. I would question the underlining difficulty in some franchises as well. Franchises which are taking genres down a path they are setting out. Take CoD a game where you can send in your squad and they can sometimes do the level for you. That's not a question of difficulty, it is a question of how the game has been set up, with handholding becoming so extreme you do not need to play.
Of course you can, and it has been done before. WOW has 3 levels of raiding. DDO has difficulty levels in dungeons. You can argue it is not done enough, but certainly it is not only can be done, it has been done multiple times.
CoD is just one game. Take any stealth game, no NPC is doing anything for you.
I will not support something just because most people do it, that is a strange way to decide your opinions. But on the grouping issue I am referring to the dumping down of the technique as much as lack of grouping. MMO's are too solo and what grouping there is has less strategy.
I agree. That is why i am not shy from stating that i like solo MMORPGs, despite most here do not like it.
Difficulty levels in dungeons is not the same as difficulty levels in a whole MMO. So sure you can ramp up the hardcore in a dungeon but in 95% or more of the MMO it is all one difficulty level and has to be.
NO, they are not the same. But given that in some MMO, instanced content is where players spend 95% of their time, a difficulty slider solves 95% of the problem.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by sanshi44Originally posted by Cephus404I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
I pose a question for you, How many New school players have even played an oldschool MMO back in its glory days maybe 10% or so if that. So how can somone determin wether or noth there a player base to be financially viable when 90% of these new player only know one thing and thats WoW and its Clones cause nothing else. Ive been talking to alot of people and broqsing many game forums and 95% of what ive talked to would like to see somthing that isnt a WoW clone so maybe an oldschool style MMO would be that breath of new air these people have been waiting for.If those older MMOs didn't exist anymore, you'd have a valid point. However, not only do they exist but they have been updated, expanded and improved to even more massively content-filled versions of what they are before. They are bigger and better than 'back in the day' and most new players still prefer the newer MMOs.
If new MMOs gamers were logging into EQ, UO, AC and DAoC instead of WOW and LOTRO, devs would be making more EQs, UOs, ACs and DAoCs.
In addition to your excellent examples, we even have some newer games that are based off of more old school principles, like Mortal Online and Darkfall. Players don't have to play an 'old' game, they can play a newer game to see if they like the older styles of game play.
Gamers have a good idea of what they like. They have preferences about FPS games, horror survival games, control schemes, amount of travel, having other players in a game with them, PvP and graphics. If a gamer reads information about UO and the game is filled with things that the gamer doesn't like, there's not much point in them trying it out. It's the same way gamers have been picking games for years. Look at what the game offers, and based on other games that the gamer has played, decide whether or not to play it. If old school game play was somehow the epitome of what people wanted, they would be playing those games. It wouldn't require a brand new game to force people into the play style.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
In addition to your excellent examples, we even have some newer games that are based off of more old school principles, like Mortal Online and Darkfall. Players don't have to play an 'old' game, they can play a newer game to see if they like the older styles of game play.
Gamers have a good idea of what they like. They have preferences about FPS games, horror survival games, control schemes, amount of travel, having other players in a game with them, PvP and graphics. If a gamer reads information about UO and the game is filled with things that the gamer doesn't like, there's not much point in them trying it out. It's the same way gamers have been picking games for years. Look at what the game offers, and based on other games that the gamer has played, decide whether or not to play it. If old school game play was somehow the epitome of what people wanted, they would be playing those games. It wouldn't require a brand new game to force people into the play style.
Precisely. Gamers are pretty good at finding out what they like, and devs are pretty good at finding their audience.
That is how a capitalistic market should work.
Personally, it is quite easy to find games i like. I am never stuck in a game that i don't like for more than 5-10 min (worse case, give it 10 min, and if it is no fun, i am out of there).
I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.
The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
I pose a question for you, How many New school players have even played an oldschool MMO back in its glory days maybe 10% or so if that. So how can somone determin wether or noth there a player base to be financially viable when 90% of these new player only know one thing and thats WoW and its Clones cause nothing else. Ive been talking to alot of people and broqsing many game forums and 95% of what ive talked to would like to see somthing that isnt a WoW clone so maybe an oldschool style MMO would be that breath of new air these people have been waiting for.
That's entirely irrelevant. Developers can only go with the data they have at hand and since there are no successful old-school games out there and all the data shows that new-school games are extremely popular, where is the data that supports your claim? There have been dozens of polls around here and very few people actually want to play old-school games or want to see old-school elements incorporated into games. There are a few very vocal fans, but numerically they're very small.
The overwhelming majority of people playing MMOs don't come to these forums, they're too busy playing and enjoying the games that are on the market.
I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.
The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
I pose a question for you, How many New school players have even played an oldschool MMO back in its glory days maybe 10% or so if that. So how can somone determin wether or noth there a player base to be financially viable when 90% of these new player only know one thing and thats WoW and its Clones cause nothing else. Ive been talking to alot of people and broqsing many game forums and 95% of what ive talked to would like to see somthing that isnt a WoW clone so maybe an oldschool style MMO would be that breath of new air these people have been waiting for.
That's entirely irrelevant. Developers can only go with the data they have at hand and since there are no successful old-school games out there and all the data shows that new-school games are extremely popular, where is the data that supports your claim? There have been dozens of polls around here and very few people actually want to play old-school games or want to see old-school elements incorporated into games. There are a few very vocal fans, but numerically they're very small.
The overwhelming majority of people playing MMOs don't come to these forums, they're too busy playing and enjoying the games that are on the market.
No successful old school games? What are you talking about? Do you even live on this planet? Yes, most of them have gone free to play but that doesn't make them not successful. There's a reason why so many people still play those old games, and why so many leave the new ones to go back to the old games they know and love. Because they ARE successful. Want an example? WoW, EQ2, and others. They are NOT new MMO's. Though they aren't 2D, that doesn't make them not old school MMO's. The new school MMO's are basically anything that's been released since LOTRO (including LOTRO since they are the game that started the "storyline" mmo gig). And even those are losing their appeal.
The truly successful MMO's are the sandbox MMO's (unless you count that facebook game stuff). The new MMO's, people play for 6 months to a year and then everyone starts jumping ship for the new big one.
People are looking for new MMO's that carry the same features as the old MMO's and the same involvement from the players, but with better graphics, better sound, and expansions of features. Instead what we are getting is better graphics, and better sound, but fewer features than ever , linear story game play, and pvp and nothing else.
I'm not sure where you come from but if you read these threads the players complain almost non-stop about the state of MMO's these days both here and elsewhere.
In addition to your excellent examples, we even have some newer games that are based off of more old school principles, like Mortal Online and Darkfall. Players don't have to play an 'old' game, they can play a newer game to see if they like the older styles of game play.
Gamers have a good idea of what they like. They have preferences about FPS games, horror survival games, control schemes, amount of travel, having other players in a game with them, PvP and graphics. If a gamer reads information about UO and the game is filled with things that the gamer doesn't like, there's not much point in them trying it out. It's the same way gamers have been picking games for years. Look at what the game offers, and based on other games that the gamer has played, decide whether or not to play it. If old school game play was somehow the epitome of what people wanted, they would be playing those games. It wouldn't require a brand new game to force people into the play style.
Precisely. Gamers are pretty good at finding out what they like, and devs are pretty good at finding their audience.
That is how a capitalistic market should work.
Personally, it is quite easy to find games i like. I am never stuck in a game that i don't like for more than 5-10 min (worse case, give it 10 min, and if it is no fun, i am out of there).
The problem with a capitalist marketplace is that it can stifle creativity by focusing on purely what is immediately profitable.
Hopefully MMOs will become cheaper to make. Right now they're too pricey to take risks on.
It can take time to establish an audience or create brand awareness.
I am keen on different difficulty settings in solo games but you can't do that in a MMO. I would question the underlining difficulty in some franchises as well. Franchises which are taking genres down a path they are setting out. Take CoD a game where you can send in your squad and they can sometimes do the level for you. That's not a question of difficulty, it is a question of how the game has been set up, with handholding becoming so extreme you do not need to play.
Of course you can, and it has been done before. WOW has 3 levels of raiding. DDO has difficulty levels in dungeons. You can argue it is not done enough, but certainly it is not only can be done, it has been done multiple times.
CoD is just one game. Take any stealth game, no NPC is doing anything for you.
I will not support something just because most people do it, that is a strange way to decide your opinions. But on the grouping issue I am referring to the dumping down of the technique as much as lack of grouping. MMO's are too solo and what grouping there is has less strategy.
I agree. That is why i am not shy from stating that i like solo MMORPGs, despite most here do not like it.
Difficulty levels in dungeons is not the same as difficulty levels in a whole MMO. So sure you can ramp up the hardcore in a dungeon but in 95% or more of the MMO it is all one difficulty level and has to be.
NO, they are not the same. But given that in some MMO, instanced content is where players spend 95% of their time, a difficulty slider solves 95% of the problem.
Players spend most of their time getting to top level, as most are gone after a couple of months the average player does not get to see much end game content. Not all MMO's offer variable content at end game let alone in dungeons as you level up anyway.
So your idea that for 95% of the time you can use a difficulty slider in a MMO is rather astounding. Even players who stay on after a couple of months usually play alts, so that's more time spent in areas where you cannot have a difficulty slider.
Also people take the easy option. If you can only get the Sword of Doom by doing a dungeon at insane difficulty, then that's what players will do. If you can get it by doing weeks of dailies players will do that instead. If you can boost your dailies by buying something in the cash shop, players will take that route too.
In a MMO there are inherent problems in allowing players to have more then one way of achieving something. In these days of cash shop MMO's those problems are exposed for all to see.
I am keen on different difficulty settings in solo games but you can't do that in a MMO. I would question the underlining difficulty in some franchises as well. Franchises which are taking genres down a path they are setting out. Take CoD a game where you can send in your squad and they can sometimes do the level for you. That's not a question of difficulty, it is a question of how the game has been set up, with handholding becoming so extreme you do not need to play.
Of course you can, and it has been done before. WOW has 3 levels of raiding. DDO has difficulty levels in dungeons. You can argue it is not done enough, but certainly it is not only can be done, it has been done multiple times.
CoD is just one game. Take any stealth game, no NPC is doing anything for you.
I will not support something just because most people do it, that is a strange way to decide your opinions. But on the grouping issue I am referring to the dumping down of the technique as much as lack of grouping. MMO's are too solo and what grouping there is has less strategy.
I agree. That is why i am not shy from stating that i like solo MMORPGs, despite most here do not like it.
Difficulty levels in dungeons is not the same as difficulty levels in a whole MMO. So sure you can ramp up the hardcore in a dungeon but in 95% or more of the MMO it is all one difficulty level and has to be.
NO, they are not the same. But given that in some MMO, instanced content is where players spend 95% of their time, a difficulty slider solves 95% of the problem.
Players spend most of their time getting to top level, as most are gone after a couple of months the average player does not get to see much end game content. Not all MMO's offer variable content at end game let alone in dungeons as you level up anyway.
So your idea that for 95% of the time you can use a difficulty slider in a MMO is rather astounding. Even players who stay on after a couple of months usually play alts, so that's more time spent in areas where you cannot have a difficulty slider.
Also people take the easy option. If you can only get the Sword of Doom by doing a dungeon at insane difficulty, then that's what players will do. If you can get it by doing weeks of dailies players will do that instead. If you can boost your dailies by buying something in the cash shop, players will take that route too.
In a MMO there are inherent problems in allowing players to have more then one way of achieving something. In these days of cash shop MMO's those problems are exposed for all to see.
The alt, in many cases, is a player-created difficulty slider.
On your point about the easy option, one way to remedy that is to have each of those items differ in appearance or name. I mean, the more logical approach is to make the content people are avoiding more compelling or to make the game less of a spreadsheeted item grind, but if the aim is to placate the people who care where a person got their item, having same stat items with different names or visuals allows them to judge others accordingly. This way when I see your True Warrior's Axe of Godsmack, I know you braved the depths of Hell a few times to get it. When you see my Tireless Warrior's Axe of Godsmack, you know I did my 100 dailies to get it. This way you know who is a real gamer and who to look down upon.
Sarcasm aside, I fully understand that some will have issue with others getting something through a route they perceive to be easier than the route they themselves went. I just don't buy into the thinking that the devs should really concern themselves with that and just concern themselves with making the content enjoyable for their target audiences.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by jpnz I don't care what it used to be about. Advocating that certain players shouldn't play a genre of games is awful.
I'm sure it'll work though /sarcasm
/SNIP
MMOs were designed to be games that were played long term, but companies are making them to be played as single player games. The design vs intended functionality is what is out of place right now and has been for quite a while.
Where have you been?
2004 called and they want their MMOs back.
Preaching that certain players shouldn't play MMOs because it wasn't designed for them is an awful argument. No matter how many 'words' you write to hide that fact.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Without limits or scaling, people can also out-level or zerg open world encounters. Engaging the "right" content for you with the "right" amount of friends is entirely voluntary. It is more common in games with harsh death penalties to play the game "the easy way": bring more friends and/or engage content which is meant for weaker characters.
It is quite peculiar, I think, that the proponents of harsh death penalties also try their best to eliminate the chance of dying. Where is the risk if there is no risk? Where is the challenge if you only engage easy content?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.
The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
You are insulting the new players tbh, just because you only get fastfood mmorpgs today does not mean that there's no one in the new players group who would like to play a bit more deeper games. When you dont even have the choise it's kinda hard to argue how well or how bad a big budget mmorpg with more depth and complexion, something that strays from the basic formula, would do currently.
There aren't a significant number because if there were, market research conducted by MMOs would find them and assuming there are enough people to make a game financially worthwhile, they'd be making games for them. The fact that they do not shows that there just aren't that many people that want an old-school game.
You people can keep trying to convince yourself that old-school games are still viable, they just aren't.
You assume that market research is flawless and that people know exactly what they would enjoy in different situations without actually being in those situations.
You assume that market research is flawless and that people know exactly what they would enjoy in different situations without actually being in those situations.
We have market research where MILLIONS of dollars are on the line.
vs
We have anecdote evidence by forum posters where there are nothing on the line.
This isn't exactly a hard choice on who to believe.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
No...Because even back then I found those game horrible, tedious, grindfests...And to play them I had to go above and beyond with computer requirements and networking, I had to get an ISDN connection because dialup was all that was available. So I had to jerry rig two dial up lines together basically with this funky box thing and a german ISP provider in the area. And it cost a lot....
Furthermore it was like having a second job, a boring repeatitive job that made me want to claw my eyes out...
The only redeeming quality was that people were more social. And that is it....I have never and will never look back at older gaming with some kinda nostalgic fondness..EVER.
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis--- NZXT Phantom 410 Case Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0 Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
Comments
And regarding grouping, people are merely playing the game the way they want. If they want to solo, so be it. Most players play alone most of the time. There's no point fighting it.
I'd like to believe that as well, but It's just simply not the case for me, games with difficulty sliders aren't as good, I believe, as games with a solid difficulty. If you make the game harder, your simply making it more difficult, if there's an obstacle you can't pass on hard, you can't help but lower it rather than trying for hours to bypass it.
In a perfectly disciplined person who would sit there for hours then good for them, but I personally don't believe in them. I ofc play games with difficulty options but it just doesn't work out well.
A difficulty option in an MMO is a no go though. I can say that, purposely increasing the difficulty on yourself when there's other people and competition involved is just wayyy too carebear. That should hopefully not happen in future titles.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Difficulty levels in dungeons is not the same as difficulty levels in a whole MMO. So sure you can ramp up the hardcore in a dungeon but in 95% or more of the MMO it is all one difficulty level and has to be.
I pose a question for you, How many New school players have even played an oldschool MMO back in its glory days maybe 10% or so if that. So how can somone determin wether or noth there a player base to be financially viable when 90% of these new player only know one thing and thats WoW and its Clones cause nothing else. Ive been talking to alot of people and broqsing many game forums and 95% of what ive talked to would like to see somthing that isnt a WoW clone so maybe an oldschool style MMO would be that breath of new air these people have been waiting for.
Man i dislike players like yourself. You want a half assed game where you blow through the content waitng for the next DLC payment. A mmorpg should be engagning enough that the players are never bored of the core elements, features, and content and when the developers do add to the game it adds more depth.
I think this analogy works: What we should be getting is a mutli layer cake, but instead we get a single slice of cake with stale cake bread and too much frosting and each WoW clone is the same stale bread, but a different flavor of frosting. A mmorpg should be a layered cake with, fruit, frosting, different cake batters, and all the bells and whistles.
The reason why SW :TOR died was the exactly things you are wanting in a mmorpg. This genre is not for you.
Want to see the next big mmorpg ? Instead of TESO being linear and restrictive: make it open, immersive sandbox like Skyrim. Add elements to the game from other sandbox mmorpgs like territory control and guild vs guild pvp. Sandbox mmorpgs have already been shown to be highly profitable and yearned after through past mmorpgs and other games like Elder scroll and Grand theft auto. There is a massive amount of players bored with themeparks and the WoW model in general and would litterally throw money at their monitor to play a true, deep, engaging, long-lasting sandbox mmorpg.
Casual players want more games built around themselves so they can get instant gratification. I wholeheartily believe mainstream and causuals ruined this genre and I never played the UO and SWG in their prime. Just from player shard servers, sandbox games and runescape I"ve learned this.
MurderHerd
It is always amusing to see people claim that 'casuals' ruined the genre.
Yeah, they ruined it by making MMO one of the largest money making genre and also allowing people to say 'I play MMOs' and not be judged as 'not normal' by society. /Sarcasm
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Open world content has never been hard. Most often the insistence on trinity varies. Sometimes its mandatory, sometimes not, but you can always rely on that the trinity beats everything. Not much strategy I'd say.
Increasing the incoming damage and mob HP to a level where a tank becomes mandatory, healer to keep him alive and DPS specialized classes to eat through that HP pool in a sensible enough time is not my idea of a challenge.
You can probably tell I am quite tired of it. Sure you can garnish it with stuff, but the core stays the same.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Gameplay mechanics in EQ was total crap. Horrible combat system, bland classes, leveling is all about grind, camps, long running. Many players adore it since it was their first MMORPG (people always have warm feeling about their first). But truth is - you wouldnt want game like this now.
Same thing with many other old MMOs. Genre is evolving and we need completely new mechanics, not turning back to same old crap
No one is saying certain players should not play. He just stated what mmos were designed to be and the type of player they were designed to make happy. Of course that has all changed and people can argue why that changed till the end of time and they probably will. Todays mmos are not about creating a living breathing world that players feel a part of, it is all about making a buck the fastest way possible and making a shallow no content game, throwing some fluff in a cash shop (or outright pay to win) and making all the money they can off people too stupid to realize they just bought a polished turd. People have been spending tons of money on stupid stuff at least Michael Jordan first debuted the Air Jordan shoe, 115 bucks back for the same sneaker you could get for 25 dollars with another company. MMOS are no different and quite frankly I am pretty convinced the human race is getting even dumber so this trend will continue. I remember the old school mmos quite fondly, some things about them I didn't like, mainly the long tedious grinds, I don't mind hard or complex but make it fun in the process but the gameplay overall was much better than it is today. Luckily we got a few games coming out that seem to want to try to revive the pay to play model as well as the old school model of work for what you get rather than the new school philosophy of we know you will leave soon so here is some epic gear for logging in. People gamehop so much these days because mmos are just shallow with no content. Look at TSW, great setting, great game, for about 30 hours. MMOs were designed to be games that were played long term, but companies are making them to be played as single player games. The design vs intended functionality is what is out of place right now and has been for quite a while.
If those older MMOs didn't exist anymore, you'd have a valid point. However, not only do they exist but they have been updated, expanded and improved to even more massively content-filled versions of what they are before. They are bigger and better than 'back in the day' and most new players still prefer the newer MMOs.
If new MMOs gamers were logging into EQ, UO, AC and DAoC instead of WOW and LOTRO, devs would be making more EQs, UOs, ACs and DAoCs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
NO, they are not the same. But given that in some MMO, instanced content is where players spend 95% of their time, a difficulty slider solves 95% of the problem.
If those older MMOs didn't exist anymore, you'd have a valid point. However, not only do they exist but they have been updated, expanded and improved to even more massively content-filled versions of what they are before. They are bigger and better than 'back in the day' and most new players still prefer the newer MMOs.
If new MMOs gamers were logging into EQ, UO, AC and DAoC instead of WOW and LOTRO, devs would be making more EQs, UOs, ACs and DAoCs.
In addition to your excellent examples, we even have some newer games that are based off of more old school principles, like Mortal Online and Darkfall. Players don't have to play an 'old' game, they can play a newer game to see if they like the older styles of game play.
Gamers have a good idea of what they like. They have preferences about FPS games, horror survival games, control schemes, amount of travel, having other players in a game with them, PvP and graphics. If a gamer reads information about UO and the game is filled with things that the gamer doesn't like, there's not much point in them trying it out. It's the same way gamers have been picking games for years. Look at what the game offers, and based on other games that the gamer has played, decide whether or not to play it. If old school game play was somehow the epitome of what people wanted, they would be playing those games. It wouldn't require a brand new game to force people into the play style.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Precisely. Gamers are pretty good at finding out what they like, and devs are pretty good at finding their audience.
That is how a capitalistic market should work.
Personally, it is quite easy to find games i like. I am never stuck in a game that i don't like for more than 5-10 min (worse case, give it 10 min, and if it is no fun, i am out of there).
That's entirely irrelevant. Developers can only go with the data they have at hand and since there are no successful old-school games out there and all the data shows that new-school games are extremely popular, where is the data that supports your claim? There have been dozens of polls around here and very few people actually want to play old-school games or want to see old-school elements incorporated into games. There are a few very vocal fans, but numerically they're very small.
The overwhelming majority of people playing MMOs don't come to these forums, they're too busy playing and enjoying the games that are on the market.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
No successful old school games? What are you talking about? Do you even live on this planet? Yes, most of them have gone free to play but that doesn't make them not successful. There's a reason why so many people still play those old games, and why so many leave the new ones to go back to the old games they know and love. Because they ARE successful. Want an example? WoW, EQ2, and others. They are NOT new MMO's. Though they aren't 2D, that doesn't make them not old school MMO's. The new school MMO's are basically anything that's been released since LOTRO (including LOTRO since they are the game that started the "storyline" mmo gig). And even those are losing their appeal.
The truly successful MMO's are the sandbox MMO's (unless you count that facebook game stuff). The new MMO's, people play for 6 months to a year and then everyone starts jumping ship for the new big one.
People are looking for new MMO's that carry the same features as the old MMO's and the same involvement from the players, but with better graphics, better sound, and expansions of features. Instead what we are getting is better graphics, and better sound, but fewer features than ever , linear story game play, and pvp and nothing else.
I'm not sure where you come from but if you read these threads the players complain almost non-stop about the state of MMO's these days both here and elsewhere.
Know how to find out the other 99%? Look at what people are playing like GW2 Diablo 3.
Truly successful games are sandbox? Lolwut?
Yeah cause Wow is a sandbox. Right? /sarcasm
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
The problem with a capitalist marketplace is that it can stifle creativity by focusing on purely what is immediately profitable.
Hopefully MMOs will become cheaper to make. Right now they're too pricey to take risks on.
It can take time to establish an audience or create brand awareness.
Double post.
Players spend most of their time getting to top level, as most are gone after a couple of months the average player does not get to see much end game content. Not all MMO's offer variable content at end game let alone in dungeons as you level up anyway.
So your idea that for 95% of the time you can use a difficulty slider in a MMO is rather astounding. Even players who stay on after a couple of months usually play alts, so that's more time spent in areas where you cannot have a difficulty slider.
Also people take the easy option. If you can only get the Sword of Doom by doing a dungeon at insane difficulty, then that's what players will do. If you can get it by doing weeks of dailies players will do that instead. If you can boost your dailies by buying something in the cash shop, players will take that route too.
In a MMO there are inherent problems in allowing players to have more then one way of achieving something. In these days of cash shop MMO's those problems are exposed for all to see.
The alt, in many cases, is a player-created difficulty slider.
On your point about the easy option, one way to remedy that is to have each of those items differ in appearance or name. I mean, the more logical approach is to make the content people are avoiding more compelling or to make the game less of a spreadsheeted item grind, but if the aim is to placate the people who care where a person got their item, having same stat items with different names or visuals allows them to judge others accordingly. This way when I see your True Warrior's Axe of Godsmack, I know you braved the depths of Hell a few times to get it. When you see my Tireless Warrior's Axe of Godsmack, you know I did my 100 dailies to get it. This way you know who is a real gamer and who to look down upon.
Sarcasm aside, I fully understand that some will have issue with others getting something through a route they perceive to be easier than the route they themselves went. I just don't buy into the thinking that the devs should really concern themselves with that and just concern themselves with making the content enjoyable for their target audiences.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Where have you been?
2004 called and they want their MMOs back.
Preaching that certain players shouldn't play MMOs because it wasn't designed for them is an awful argument. No matter how many 'words' you write to hide that fact.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Without limits or scaling, people can also out-level or zerg open world encounters. Engaging the "right" content for you with the "right" amount of friends is entirely voluntary. It is more common in games with harsh death penalties to play the game "the easy way": bring more friends and/or engage content which is meant for weaker characters.
It is quite peculiar, I think, that the proponents of harsh death penalties also try their best to eliminate the chance of dying. Where is the risk if there is no risk? Where is the challenge if you only engage easy content?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You assume that market research is flawless and that people know exactly what they would enjoy in different situations without actually being in those situations.
We have market research where MILLIONS of dollars are on the line.
vs
We have anecdote evidence by forum posters where there are nothing on the line.
This isn't exactly a hard choice on who to believe.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
No...Because even back then I found those game horrible, tedious, grindfests...And to play them I had to go above and beyond with computer requirements and networking, I had to get an ISDN connection because dialup was all that was available. So I had to jerry rig two dial up lines together basically with this funky box thing and a german ISP provider in the area. And it cost a lot....
Furthermore it was like having a second job, a boring repeatitive job that made me want to claw my eyes out...
The only redeeming quality was that people were more social. And that is it....I have never and will never look back at older gaming with some kinda nostalgic fondness..EVER.
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis---
NZXT Phantom 410 Case
Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz
Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard
Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0
Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB