Originally posted by ThomasN7 Well done OP. Now if we can only get the developers and publishers on the same page with this train of thought we would be in a better genre. If the greedy would actually put game first instead of business model first we would be ok. Less people would be posting on forums and more people would be playing, enjoying their hobby.
YESS lol, that's my situation, I never heard about these forums until the entire MMO market went stale lol.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
Originally posted by ThomasN7 Well done OP. Now if we can only get the developers and publishers on the same page with this train of thought we would be in a better genre. If the greedy would actually put game first instead of business model first we would be ok. Less people would be posting on forums and more people would be playing, enjoying their hobby.
YESS lol, that's my situation, I never heard about these forums until the entire MMO market went stale lol.
Putting gaming model first brought in the punters in the past. What we are seeing now is a business model first with the gaming model as a secondary priority. The issues this has caused are why many have eventually joined us. You do get your MMO cheerleaders as well who think the industry is wonderful. It is interesting that some of those who are happiest with MMOs seem to have time to post on here more than us who are unhappiest with them.
The poor souls can't be as happy as they think or they would be playing one of their beloved F2P ezMMO's.
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour You assume that market research is flawless and that people know exactly what they would enjoy in different situations without actually being in those situations.
They assume even more than that; that MMO creators actually do market research; when it is quite obvious that they do not. Can any gamer here say they've been contacted by a market research firm asking MMO related questions?
Market researchers also tend to give reports their clients (they are paid to make points) want to hear. Statistics are fun that way. They can be shown in any light favorable to what needs to be shown.
The best part is the theory that a small segment (less .1%) can be expanded to an accurate overall conclusion. Not too dissimilar from using a poll on a website to gather facts, yes?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by ThomasN7 Well done OP. Now if we can only get the developers and publishers on the same page with this train of thought we would be in a better genre. If the greedy would actually put game first instead of business model first we would be ok. Less people would be posting on forums and more people would be playing, enjoying their hobby.
YESS lol, that's my situation, I never heard about these forums until the entire MMO market went stale lol.
Putting gaming model first brought in the punters in the past. What we are seeing now is a business model first with the gaming model as a secondary priority. The issues this has caused are why many have eventually joined us. You do get your MMO cheerleaders as well who think the industry is wonderful. It is interesting that some of those who are happiest with MMOs seem to have time to post on here more than us who are unhappiest with them.The poor souls can't be as happy as they think or they would be playing one of their beloved F2P ezMMO's.
And... my favorite part, many that are pleased as punch admittedly spend nothing on the games they enjoy. That makes so much sense. "Let's cater to the players who will spend nothing and keep them happy!" What bright mogul thought that one up?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
And... my favorite part, many that are pleased as punch admittedly spend nothing on the games they enjoy. That makes so much sense. "Let's cater to the players who will spend nothing and keep them happy!" What bright mogul thought that one up?
Yeah .. it makes a lot of sense. Let's the whales pay. As long as my taste is close to some whales, i am all set.
The bright mogul who is making tons of money off f2p games now?
Originally posted by Scot Originally posted by DrCokePepsiOriginally posted by ThomasN7Well done OP. Now if we can only get the developers and publishers on the same page with this train of thought we would be in a better genre. If the greedy would actually put game first instead of business model first we would be ok. Less people would be posting on forums and more people would be playing, enjoying their hobby.
YESS lol, that's my situation, I never heard about these forums until the entire MMO market went stale lol.Putting gaming model first brought in the punters in the past. What we are seeing now is a business model first with the gaming model as a secondary priority. The issues this has caused are why many have eventually joined us. You do get your MMO cheerleaders as well who think the industry is wonderful. It is interesting that some of those who are happiest with MMOs seem to have time to post on here more than us who are unhappiest with them.
The poor souls can't be as happy as they think or they would be playing one of their beloved F2P ezMMO's.
So damn true, the market is just confused right now. It's catering to the wrong crowd.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
So damn true, the market is just confused right now. It's catering to the wrong crowd.
It's making more money today and there are more people playing today than at any time in the past and you think they're catering to the wrong crowd? They've never been more successful!
So damn true, the market is just confused right now. It's catering to the wrong crowd.
It's making more money today and there are more people playing today than at any time in the past and you think they're catering to the wrong crowd? They've never been more successful!
Its not the wrong crowd, its just the largest crowd. With that the lowest common denominator deciding what makes a good MMO. Part of why these games cannot hold on to players is down to designing for the LCD. Such design has no long term appeal as no one is truly catered for. Instead the majority are catered for enough to maintain their interest for a couple of months, then they go.
I am getting quite tired of all this willful ignorance and the holier-than-thou-attitude of the fans of MMOs past. Anyone who tries to take a moderate stance, an objective stance gets labelled as the enemy. This has grown into a religion; Rational arguments don't apply.
Church of Old-School
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I am not sure you are referring to me, perhaps you could point out where I am going wrong? If modern MMOs are full of niche genres and not one huge mish mash, please tell me the names of all these niche MMOs? If modern MMOs are retaining most players beyond the 2 to 3 month point, do tell us which ones. Gaming company senior figures have expressed their concern about how this model is effecting their companies. Put yourself in their shoes. If you were on the staff of a company that only employed you for one or two years and then you had to look for another game to work on would you stick with that as a career for life?
Its not the wrong crowd, its just the largest crowd. With that the lowest common denominator deciding what makes a good MMO. Part of why these games cannot hold on to players is down to designing for the LCD. Such design has no long term appeal as no one is truly catered for. Instead the majority are catered for enough to maintain their interest for a couple of months, then they go.
Nah .. such design is catered for game hoppers. If players want many short fun games, instead of a one long one, devs should accomodate that.
Originally posted by Scot I am not sure you are referring to me, perhaps you could point out where I am going wrong? If modern MMOs are full of niche genres and not one huge mish mash, please tell me the names of all these niche MMOs? If modern MMOs are retaining most players beyond the 2 to 3 month point, do tell us which ones. Gaming company senior figures have expressed their concern about how this model is effecting their companies. Put yourself in their shoes. If you were on the staff of a company that only employed you for one or two years and then you had to look for another game to work on would you stick with that as a career for life?
Earthrise, Eve, Darkfall ....
Who says a company has to make only one game? Who says a company cannot keep making 3 months game? A long career does not equate working on only one game.
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi So damn true, the market is just confused right now. It's catering to the wrong crowd.
It's making more money today and there are more people playing today than at any time in the past and you think they're catering to the wrong crowd? They've never been more successful!
Its not the wrong crowd, its just the largest crowd. With that the lowest common denominator deciding what makes a good MMO. Part of why these games cannot hold on to players is down to designing for the LCD. Such design has no long term appeal as no one is truly catered for. Instead the majority are catered for enough to maintain their interest for a couple of months, then they go.
So just who does get to decide what makes a good MMO?
I, for one, would not pick DrCokePepsi as my representative.
How shall we vote?
Oh, right, we already voted, marketplace, dollars...
Lots of sour grapes from the consumers who were ineffective at taking control of the production machinery...But then their feelings of proprietary ownership (of individual games, or of the entire genre) have always been highly misplaced anyway.
It's like listening to the losing party after every election. Except, you know, nearly everyone believes their party lost. And it never, ever stops.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
So damn true, the market is just confused right now. It's catering to the wrong crowd.
It's making more money today and there are more people playing today than at any time in the past and you think they're catering to the wrong crowd? They've never been more successful!
Its not the wrong crowd, its just the largest crowd. With that the lowest common denominator deciding what makes a good MMO. Part of why these games cannot hold on to players is down to designing for the LCD. Such design has no long term appeal as no one is truly catered for. Instead the majority are catered for enough to maintain their interest for a couple of months, then they go.
Actually its the crowd they think is the largest. The reason the "largest crowd" doesn't know they want those things is because they've never played those old games that DID deliver more to the players than facebook games.
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi So damn true, the market is just confused right now. It's catering to the wrong crowd.
It's making more money today and there are more people playing today than at any time in the past and you think they're catering to the wrong crowd? They've never been more successful!
Its not the wrong crowd, its just the largest crowd. With that the lowest common denominator deciding what makes a good MMO. Part of why these games cannot hold on to players is down to designing for the LCD. Such design has no long term appeal as no one is truly catered for. Instead the majority are catered for enough to maintain their interest for a couple of months, then they go.
So just who does get to decide what makes a good MMO?
I, for one, would not pick DrCokePepsi as my representative.
How shall we vote?
Oh, right, we already voted, marketplace, dollars...
Lots of sour grapes from the consumers who were ineffective at taking control of the production machinery...But then their feelings of proprietary ownership (of individual games, or of the entire genre) have always been highly misplaced anyway.
It's like listening to the losing party after every election. Except, you know, nearly everyone believes their party lost. And it never, ever stops.
An interesting metaphor.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Scot I am not sure you are referring to me, perhaps you could point out where I am going wrong? If modern MMOs are full of niche genres and not one huge mish mash, please tell me the names of all these niche MMOs? If modern MMOs are retaining most players beyond the 2 to 3 month point, do tell us which ones. Gaming company senior figures have expressed their concern about how this model is effecting their companies. Put yourself in their shoes. If you were on the staff of a company that only employed you for one or two years and then you had to look for another game to work on would you stick with that as a career for life?
Are you kidding? I would love to work on a completely new game every two years! That would be a dream job.
You don't dictate the standards for MMOs and you can't use a 10-year-old measuring stick to do it. The market and the industry are drastically different from those days. Have you even considered that sticking to one game for years is a thing of the past? That we will likely never see such games again. Its not a good thing or a bad thing. Its just how things are. For your sake, you should change with the times.
Turns out in another thread, Holophonist was in favor of innovation only when it suited him. I would also bet all my Internet coins that you would be hypocritical enough not to complain if your preferred style of MMOs returned as the mainstream niche.
Why can't you just quietly accept that you belong in a minority without any mud slinging? Why do you have the need to point fingers and demean the people who don't share your preferences?
For a self-proclaimed social and friendly community, the old-schoolers are portraying quite a different image outward.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
People just need to be reminded from time to time that they're consumers. We don't get to tell Ford what features to put on next year's model, no matter how interested you are in it, or how many hours you devote to talking about it and analyzing it in great detail.
Buy one, or not. That's the extent of your powers.
Oh, you can write Ford lots of letters, and try to make your opinions well known. But they aren't obligated to consider your purchase (or wishes) as binding on future Fords. And they're certainly not obligated to revive the Model T again, no matter how much you loved it.
(They do come out with Mustang reboots, pretty regularly, but we don't like talking about the Mustang II.)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
People just need to be reminded from time to time that they're consumers. We don't get to tell Ford what features to put on next year's model, no matter how interested you are in it, or how many hours you devote to talking about it and analyzing it in great detail.
Buy one, or not. That's the extent of your powers.
Oh, you can write Ford lots of letters, and try to make your opinions well known. But they aren't obligated to consider your purchase (or wishes) as binding on future Fords. And they're certainly not obligated to revive the Model T again, no matter how much you loved it.
Very true.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
So just who does get to decide what makes a good MMO?
I, for one, would not pick DrCokePepsi as my representative.
How shall we vote?
Oh, right, we already voted, marketplace, dollars...
Lots of sour grapes from the consumers who were ineffective at taking control of the production machinery...But then their feelings of proprietary ownership (of individual games, or of the entire genre) have always been highly misplaced anyway.
It's like listening to the losing party after every election. Except, you know, nearly everyone believes their party lost. And it never, ever stops.
Yeah .. lots of sour grapes. When they don't get their games, may be people should learn to a) vote with their dollars more, or b) move on to other forms of entertainment.
Personally if MMO devs stop catering to my preference, i will just leave. There is no point trying to change them.
People just need to be reminded from time to time that they're consumers. We don't get to tell Ford what features to put on next year's model, no matter how interested you are in it, or how many hours you devote to talking about it and analyzing it in great detail.
Buy one, or not. That's the extent of your powers.
Oh, you can write Ford lots of letters, and try to make your opinions well known. But they aren't obligated to consider your purchase (or wishes) as binding on future Fords. And they're certainly not obligated to revive the Model T again, no matter how much you loved it.
(They do come out with Mustang reboots, pretty regularly, but we don't like talking about the Mustang II.)
We have no problem moving along believe it or not. If these guys don't want our money there are plenty of entertainment companies that do.
But just when we're leaving they start claiming sandboxes and virtual worlds and crafting as a core again. Either stop marketing to us or let us leave. We've compromised enough already.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
People just need to be reminded from time to time that they're consumers. We don't get to tell Ford what features to put on next year's model, no matter how interested you are in it, or how many hours you devote to talking about it and analyzing it in great detail.
Buy one, or not. That's the extent of your powers.
Oh, you can write Ford lots of letters, and try to make your opinions well known. But they aren't obligated to consider your purchase (or wishes) as binding on future Fords. And they're certainly not obligated to revive the Model T again, no matter how much you loved it.
(They do come out with Mustang reboots, pretty regularly, but we don't like talking about the Mustang II.)
We have no problem moving along believe it or not. If these guys don't want our money there are plenty of entertainment companies that do.
But just when we're leaving they start claiming sandboxes and virtual worlds and crafting as a core again. Either stop marketing to us or let us leave. We've compromised enough already.
So, what you are saying is that all it takes is a little marketing, and you dont leave. The way I see it, this is your problem, not theirs. If I were to believe all the wonderful things promised by advertising... I would also be dissapointed.... but I dont.
So just who does get to decide what makes a good MMO?
I, for one, would not pick DrCokePepsi as my representative.
How shall we vote?
Oh, right, we already voted, marketplace, dollars...
Lots of sour grapes from the consumers who were ineffective at taking control of the production machinery...But then their feelings of proprietary ownership (of individual games, or of the entire genre) have always been highly misplaced anyway.
It's like listening to the losing party after every election. Except, you know, nearly everyone believes their party lost. And it never, ever stops.
Yeah .. lots of sour grapes. When they don't get their games, may be people should learn to a) vote with their dollars more, or b) move on to other forms of entertainment.
Personally if MMO devs stop catering to my preference, i will just leave. There is no point trying to change them.
Exactly. People need to give up on these mmorpg makers. They've chosen their audience. Let them pay for it and hype it as well. Give your money to those who actually want and deserve it.
If a game isn't catering to you, then silence is the best way to tell them.
Keep on telling em sir. Maybe it will sink in.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Yeah .. lots of sour grapes. When they don't get their games, may be people should learn to a) vote with their dollars more, or b) move on to other forms of entertainment.
Personally if MMO devs stop catering to my preference, i will just leave. There is no point trying to change them.
I feel, for many, playing pen & paper RPGs would serve their preferences better than playing MMORPGs. MMORPGs have never been adequate if you want RP and freedom to do whatever you want.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Turns out in another thread, Holophonist was in favor of innovation only when it suited him.
Wrong, as I told you at the time. I very clearly said (and repeated) that I am in favor of all innovation because it lets people pick and choose what they like and what they don't. What I don't like is when companies fail to innovate because they think they can copy other games' winning formulas to make an easy buck.
Comments
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Putting gaming model first brought in the punters in the past. What we are seeing now is a business model first with the gaming model as a secondary priority. The issues this has caused are why many have eventually joined us. You do get your MMO cheerleaders as well who think the industry is wonderful. It is interesting that some of those who are happiest with MMOs seem to have time to post on here more than us who are unhappiest with them.
The poor souls can't be as happy as they think or they would be playing one of their beloved F2P ezMMO's.
The best part is the theory that a small segment (less .1%) can be expanded to an accurate overall conclusion. Not too dissimilar from using a poll on a website to gather facts, yes?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Yeah .. it makes a lot of sense. Let's the whales pay. As long as my taste is close to some whales, i am all set.
The bright mogul who is making tons of money off f2p games now?
Putting gaming model first brought in the punters in the past. What we are seeing now is a business model first with the gaming model as a secondary priority. The issues this has caused are why many have eventually joined us. You do get your MMO cheerleaders as well who think the industry is wonderful. It is interesting that some of those who are happiest with MMOs seem to have time to post on here more than us who are unhappiest with them.
The poor souls can't be as happy as they think or they would be playing one of their beloved F2P ezMMO's.
So damn true, the market is just confused right now. It's catering to the wrong crowd.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
It's making more money today and there are more people playing today than at any time in the past and you think they're catering to the wrong crowd? They've never been more successful!
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Its not the wrong crowd, its just the largest crowd. With that the lowest common denominator deciding what makes a good MMO. Part of why these games cannot hold on to players is down to designing for the LCD. Such design has no long term appeal as no one is truly catered for. Instead the majority are catered for enough to maintain their interest for a couple of months, then they go.
I am getting quite tired of all this willful ignorance and the holier-than-thou-attitude of the fans of MMOs past. Anyone who tries to take a moderate stance, an objective stance gets labelled as the enemy. This has grown into a religion; Rational arguments don't apply.
Church of Old-School
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Nah .. such design is catered for game hoppers. If players want many short fun games, instead of a one long one, devs should accomodate that.
Earthrise, Eve, Darkfall ....
Who says a company has to make only one game? Who says a company cannot keep making 3 months game? A long career does not equate working on only one game.
So just who does get to decide what makes a good MMO?
I, for one, would not pick DrCokePepsi as my representative.
How shall we vote?
Oh, right, we already voted, marketplace, dollars...
Lots of sour grapes from the consumers who were ineffective at taking control of the production machinery...But then their feelings of proprietary ownership (of individual games, or of the entire genre) have always been highly misplaced anyway.
It's like listening to the losing party after every election. Except, you know, nearly everyone believes their party lost. And it never, ever stops.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Actually its the crowd they think is the largest. The reason the "largest crowd" doesn't know they want those things is because they've never played those old games that DID deliver more to the players than facebook games.
An interesting metaphor.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Are you kidding? I would love to work on a completely new game every two years! That would be a dream job.
You don't dictate the standards for MMOs and you can't use a 10-year-old measuring stick to do it. The market and the industry are drastically different from those days. Have you even considered that sticking to one game for years is a thing of the past? That we will likely never see such games again. Its not a good thing or a bad thing. Its just how things are. For your sake, you should change with the times.
Turns out in another thread, Holophonist was in favor of innovation only when it suited him. I would also bet all my Internet coins that you would be hypocritical enough not to complain if your preferred style of MMOs returned as the mainstream niche.
Why can't you just quietly accept that you belong in a minority without any mud slinging? Why do you have the need to point fingers and demean the people who don't share your preferences?
For a self-proclaimed social and friendly community, the old-schoolers are portraying quite a different image outward.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
People just need to be reminded from time to time that they're consumers. We don't get to tell Ford what features to put on next year's model, no matter how interested you are in it, or how many hours you devote to talking about it and analyzing it in great detail.
Buy one, or not. That's the extent of your powers.
Oh, you can write Ford lots of letters, and try to make your opinions well known. But they aren't obligated to consider your purchase (or wishes) as binding on future Fords. And they're certainly not obligated to revive the Model T again, no matter how much you loved it.
(They do come out with Mustang reboots, pretty regularly, but we don't like talking about the Mustang II.)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Very true.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Yeah .. lots of sour grapes. When they don't get their games, may be people should learn to a) vote with their dollars more, or b) move on to other forms of entertainment.
Personally if MMO devs stop catering to my preference, i will just leave. There is no point trying to change them.
We have no problem moving along believe it or not. If these guys don't want our money there are plenty of entertainment companies that do.
But just when we're leaving they start claiming sandboxes and virtual worlds and crafting as a core again. Either stop marketing to us or let us leave. We've compromised enough already.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
So, what you are saying is that all it takes is a little marketing, and you dont leave. The way I see it, this is your problem, not theirs. If I were to believe all the wonderful things promised by advertising... I would also be dissapointed.... but I dont.
Exactly. People need to give up on these mmorpg makers. They've chosen their audience. Let them pay for it and hype it as well. Give your money to those who actually want and deserve it.
If a game isn't catering to you, then silence is the best way to tell them.
Keep on telling em sir. Maybe it will sink in.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I feel, for many, playing pen & paper RPGs would serve their preferences better than playing MMORPGs. MMORPGs have never been adequate if you want RP and freedom to do whatever you want.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Wrong, as I told you at the time. I very clearly said (and repeated) that I am in favor of all innovation because it lets people pick and choose what they like and what they don't. What I don't like is when companies fail to innovate because they think they can copy other games' winning formulas to make an easy buck.