Lol whales are imaginary but leeches are real, damn how the hell do those companies stay afloat year after year?! Must be that everyone pays an average amount each, wait that's not right them the model would be absolutely fair, if only we had whales to balance out those tha pay less.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Neo_ViperThose imaginary "whales" are only an excuse for the leeches to keep on leeching. But I'm confident, payback will come, soon. Do your local movie theater also let you in to see movies for free because it's only "entertainment"? People leeching in games are not better than people pirating movies..
Actually, a local movie chain here is running a promotion where some people get in to see movies for free. They are not doing it "because it's only entertainment" but as a promotional gimmick that they hope will attract more customers to their theaters. It would be idiotic to call the people who get their movie tickets and popcorn comped "leechers". They are getting free service in as part of the company's marketing campaign.
The "free" players in F2P games are a marketing tool the companies are using to attract paying customers.
I agree with this statement. If I were running a store, I would prefer the customers to be in my shop than someone else's (such as a competitor's) even if they are ONLY window shopping. The potential for the sale is much greater when the people are inside my store rather than someone else's. I wouldn't call them leeches if the model presented allows them to do it, I would be just as likely as call the people that actually pay into it "suckers" if we were to work with the "calling people leechers" logic.
Ultimately its all about the value acquired gained by making/not making said purchases and running within a capitalist economy, no one really ever loses because the money being paid into or gained isn't floored or capped at a specific price. This is where subscription MMO's lose out on and where some subscribers that were on the fence about paying (and are "forced" to pay in order to play) might feel a little sleighted by not seeing their entire value being fully realized, but are stuck at the same price as everyone else to play a certain game. That's the biggest and glaring disadvantage to the subscription model and why its losing popularity or at least its my theory to the trend.
I couldn't agree more with the OP. I'm just done arguing about the whole thing. I do market research 10 plus hours a day as part of my job. I have absolutely no interest in involving that aspect of gaming into my hobby. I only know what I like and enjoy and it matches up very nicely with what the OP is saying.
To the folks around here that really enjoy researching the target audience and money spent on MMO gaming, I bow to your knowledge of the subject. It used to really upset me because I really missed gaming the way I used to and I felt like I lost that hobby. I'm playing FF a realm reborn and it's fun. It's p2p and it's got a nice old school feel to it, even if it's not just like the classics, it's closer than anything I've played since Vanguard.
Again, I'm not trying to say that there is enough of a market for an old school game, so don't even bother with the numbers. I don't care anymore. I'm playing something that I enjoy and I'm not going to change my personal taste in gaming so that it matches up better with the popular vote. I'm going to continue to support p2p, tab target games and not even try the others. Maybe, just maybe something really oldschool will come out eventually. If not, I have other hobbies.
If the F2P model didn't work, Western companies wouldn't be trying to shift in that direction. The only problem working against them is mistrust developed by many Westerners that companies are trying to use it to nickle and dime them to death, it merely is just new and not quite understood. But if it works for Dota 2 and LoL, surely it can work for MMO's despite higher development costs, the online service part is pretty much in tact. Both companies constantly have to develop content to keep people happy and to keep developing customers.
Providing the players the option to pay on their own terms invites more people into their game where they otherwise wouldn't even be playing if a subscription was utilized instead. That's the part you forget is that subscriptions also act as a wall for some consumers and a wall that some might not care to pay. So even if only 10% of players that play an MMO actually pay for items on a monthly basis, those 10% probably would be the only ones in the game if a subscription was used instead.
The other point you forget too is the amount of money spent per spending player has much greater potential because you aren't pidgeon holing them into a set amount per month, the freedom to spend as little or as MUCH is there. Again, if you understood simple business, you definitely invest in potential otherwise the advertising industry wouldn't be taking over America, Idiocracy-style because that's all people pay when they invest in ads is for potential.
I can see future MMO's doing away with subs together or implementing free and sub options both into each MMO because giving the consumer freedom to spend as little or much is much better than forcing the profit out of them on a monthly basis.
Completely missed this before. Great post on how the model works, Jairoe3.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Those imaginary "whales" are only an excuse for the leeches to keep on leeching. But I'm confident, payback will come, soon. Do your local movie theater also let you in to see movies for free because it's only "entertainment"? People leeching in games are not better than people pirating movies..
If whales are imaginery, how are those companies staying afloat?
And why would anyone needs an excuse? The devs already sanction playing for free. You can call it leeching or whatever. It is not like calling people names will stop them from enjoying free games that devs make possible to play free.
Those imaginary "whales" are only an excuse for the leeches to keep on leeching. But I'm confident, payback will come, soon. Do your local movie theater also let you in to see movies for free because it's only "entertainment"? People leeching in games are not better than people pirating movies..
If whales are imaginery, how are those companies staying afloat?
Because a significant majority of players are paying to play.
And why would anyone needs an excuse? The devs already sanction playing for free. You can call it leeching or whatever. It is not like calling people names will stop them from enjoying free games that devs make possible to play free.
Be a man then and accept your title. You are someone who uses an entertainment form that others pay for for free. You are a leech.
I don't try to say it's wrong or right. I'm just appalled by the hypocrisy. And FACT is that those games would NOT exists if only leeches were playing them - the paying people are those who make those games possible.
I'm far beyond asking any kind of honesty on the Internet. I personally have a collection of over 150 movies on Blu-Ray disc, all original, not copies. Yet you have millions of people pirating the same movies all over the world (with more or less crappier quality, but that's food for other thoughts). Why are good movies still existing? Not because of the leeches downloading them for free... but because of people like me who PAY for what they think is good entertainment.
Freeloaders make me sick. And that's what the current generation is more and more all about.
I don't try to say it's wrong or right. I'm just appalled by the hypocrisy. And FACT is that those games would NOT exists if only leeches were playing them - the paying people are those who make those games possible.
Actually, those games would completely tank if the free players weren't there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't try to say it's wrong or right. I'm just appalled by the hypocrisy. And FACT is that those games would NOT exists if only leeches were playing them - the paying people are those who make those games possible.
Actually, those games would completely tank if the free players weren't there.
You don't make any sense here, man... if only free players were playing, there would be no revenue, and no revenue means no way to pay the developers, CS team, etc... which means the game dies.
If F2P games exist, it's because a significant amount of people PAY to play. Without those people, those games wouldn't exist at all.
At the end of the day, both subscription based and free to play games only exist because people pay to play them. Leeches are a sad byproduct of free to play games, but definitely not the reason why those games can survive and thrive.
I don't try to say it's wrong or right. I'm just appalled by the hypocrisy. And FACT is that those games would NOT exists if only leeches were playing them - the paying people are those who make those games possible.
Actually, those games would completely tank if the free players weren't there.
You don't make any sense here, man... if only free players were playing, there would be no revenue, and no revenue means no way to pay the developers, CS team, etc... which means the game dies.
If F2P games exist, it's because a significant amount of people PAY to play. Without those people, those games wouldn't exist at all.
At the end of the day, both subscription based and free to play games only exist because people pay to play them. Leeches are a sad byproduct of free to play games, but definitely not the reason why those games can survive and thrive.
You are correct that the paying players need to be there for the game to make money. What I am saying is that the free players are part of the system, and without them the game would fail.
The vanity case isn’t going to buy new bling if there’s no one to show it off to.
The raider/grinder isn’t going to buy the xp boosts if he doesn’t have players to group with or compete against.
The socialiser isn’t going to run his tavern or buy new toys if he’s logging in and just playing alone.
Without the free players, the paying ones quickly leave. They are as vital to the success of a free to play game as the paying players are.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't try to say it's wrong or right. I'm just appalled by the hypocrisy. And FACT is that those games would NOT exists if only leeches were playing them - the paying people are those who make those games possible.
Actually, those games would completely tank if the free players weren't there.
You don't make any sense here, man... if only free players were playing, there would be no revenue, and no revenue means no way to pay the developers, CS team, etc... which means the game dies.
If F2P games exist, it's because a significant amount of people PAY to play. Without those people, those games wouldn't exist at all.
At the end of the day, both subscription based and free to play games only exist because people pay to play them. Leeches are a sad byproduct of free to play games, but definitely not the reason why those games can survive and thrive.
You are correct that the paying players need to be there for the game to make money. What I am saying is that the free players are part of the system, and without them the game would fail.
The vanity case isn’t going to buy new bling if there’s no one to show it off to.
The freeloaders don't have any "bling" since you need to pay to get it. Those who make people want to play are the paying customers.
The raider/grinder isn’t going to buy the xp boosts if he doesn’t have players to group with or compete against.
True, but still, what's the point? How do freeloaders encourage competition?
The socialiser isn’t going to run his tavern or buy new toys if he’s logging in and just playing alone.
And what does this have to do with F2P?
Without the free players, the paying ones quickly leave. They are as vital to the success of a free to play game as the paying players are.
This seems to be utopia to me. Actually, I could even reverse the scenario - paying players leave because free player introduce a demographic to the game which downgrades the social environment - aka freeloaders like our "friend", but also immature adolescents or even kids who wouldn't have access to those games in a subscription based model. Nobody wants people like "Naruwhateverhisnameis" in their guild. Antisocial people only using others for their own enjoyment, and not social players trying to help each other.
I've been playing LOTRO on Laurelin (RP server) since the preorder times. I've witnessed what F2P can do to a community, even a "controlled" one like Laurelin, first hand. I've witnessed RP guilds falling appart and quitting because the game has become a cesspool of immaturity.
So what's that socializer thing you're talking about?
You are correct that the paying players need to be there for the game to make money. What I am saying is that the free players are part of the system, and without them the game would fail.
That's a self-serving remark, as P2P games have been successful for many years (WoW dominated the market despite the expense of the expansions on top of the sub, itself).
So it's not truly about who can or can't pay, it's more like what pirate can get to play for free. The dudes that once went to Pirate Bay to get hacked games to play for free, now flock to "F2P" MMOs as the FPS games are also going the MMORPG route, and bringing their bad manners in tow, too.
In the days when the internet cost $300+/mon people protected their investment more. As soon as it became pay monthly not hourly, every riftraft known was online.
History is a great teacher in what F2P will bring to MMOs, and they're not so special to be so different from what apathy; anarchy and general lawlessness brings.
From a RP perspective, it may seem that the games could be deeper. Which game would you rather play? Game A offers raiding instances for character advancement alone, so you can get better gear and raid more instances. Game B asks you to save your home city from an invasion, if you succeed then you can wear gear looted off the invaders and there will be consequences if you fail. My view is that character advancement should not be an end in itself, but secondary to what impact your character makes in the world at large. An example of this hopefully being handled correctly is Everquest Next, but time and again it was proven that players do not let the story get in the way of good rewards (for example opposing teams avoiding each other in pvp games to finish the battleground quicker or trading keeps), so the rewards must complement the story.
Originally posted by Neo_ViperThose imaginary "whales" are only an excuse for the leeches to keep on leeching. But I'm confident, payback will come, soon. Do your local movie theater also let you in to see movies for free because it's only "entertainment"? People leeching in games are not better than people pirating movies..
Actually, a local movie chain here is running a promotion where some people get in to see movies for free. They are not doing it "because it's only entertainment" but as a promotional gimmick that they hope will attract more customers to their theaters. It would be idiotic to call the people who get their movie tickets and popcorn comped "leechers". They are getting free service in as part of the company's marketing campaign.
The "free" players in F2P games are a marketing tool the companies are using to attract paying customers.
I agree with this statement. If I were running a store, I would prefer the customers to be in my shop than someone else's (such as a competitor's) even if they are ONLY window shopping. The potential for the sale is much greater when the people are inside my store rather than someone else's. I wouldn't call them leeches if the model presented allows them to do it, I would be just as likely as call the people that actually pay into it "suckers" if we were to work with the "calling people leechers" logic.
That is only true to a point, but I will follow your analogy a bit further to the real world case of cyber-cafes / wi-fi coffee shops.
I read an article this week talking about how "freeloaders" are killing the revenue in many of these places, because people show up in the morning, buy a small coffee or request a free water (and by law the store has to provide it) and then take up the tables/seats/couches/IPad stations/etc. for most of the day and turn it into a virtual office. By doing so, the non-paying or almost non-paying customers are taking up all the space and not giving the other paying customers space.
As a result, table turn over time is high, sales are relatively low, and repeat customer numbers fall, because if someone wants to go someplace and have a coffee and read the paper but can't ever find a place to sit, they will go somewhere else. It also upset people that paid $6+ for a double-mocha half-whip latte whatever could not get a seat.
The article also detailed the measures stores were taking to get rid of the free loaders. So, even though these cafes were always or usually at high capacity, because of the business model, the shops were not making much money.
I see a very strong parallel to so called "F2P" games. At some point, enough people have to pay. And advertising money and marketing partnerships and all of that crap is not enough if people are not paying. Only because MMOs are so cheap to keep running, is this not more obvious.
Having a lot of people in your store or game means nothing if you can't monetize the traffic. And even more so, if many of these players that pay nothing, do things that turn paying players off and make them quit (spamming, hacking, trash talking, flooding/farming instances etc), that actually costs the games money. (Just like in the cyber-cafe example.)
And that is what a lot of people who embrace "totally free" F2P games and criticize P2P titles don't get.
We have all heard that, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."
Well, there is no such thing as a free game, either.
You are correct that the paying players need to be there for the game to make money. What I am saying is that the free players are part of the system, and without them the game would fail.
That's a self-serving remark, as P2P games have been successful for many years (WoW dominated the market despite the expense of the expansions on top of the sub, itself).
Irrelevant. Completely different business model.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Neo_ViperThose imaginary "whales" are only an excuse for the leeches to keep on leeching. But I'm confident, payback will come, soon. Do your local movie theater also let you in to see movies for free because it's only "entertainment"? People leeching in games are not better than people pirating movies..
Actually, a local movie chain here is running a promotion where some people get in to see movies for free. They are not doing it "because it's only entertainment" but as a promotional gimmick that they hope will attract more customers to their theaters. It would be idiotic to call the people who get their movie tickets and popcorn comped "leechers". They are getting free service in as part of the company's marketing campaign.
The "free" players in F2P games are a marketing tool the companies are using to attract paying customers.
I agree with this statement. If I were running a store, I would prefer the customers to be in my shop than someone else's (such as a competitor's) even if they are ONLY window shopping. The potential for the sale is much greater when the people are inside my store rather than someone else's. I wouldn't call them leeches if the model presented allows them to do it, I would be just as likely as call the people that actually pay into it "suckers" if we were to work with the "calling people leechers" logic.
That is only true to a point, but I will follow your analogy a bit further to the real world case of cyber-cafes / wi-fi coffee shops.
I read an article this week talking about how "freeloaders" are killing the revenue in many of these places, because people show up in the morning, buy a small coffee or request a free water (and by law the store has to provide it) and then take up the tables/seats/couches/IPad stations/etc. for most of the day and turn it into a virtual office. By doing so, the non-paying or almost non-paying customers are taking up all the space and not giving the other paying customers space.
As a result, table turn over time is high, sales are relatively low, and repeat customer numbers fall, because if someone wants to go someplace and have a coffee and read the paper but can't ever find a place to sit, they will go somewhere else. It also upset people that paid $6+ for a double-mocha half-whip latte whatever could not get a seat.
The article also detailed the measures stores were taking to get rid of the free loaders. So, even though these cafes were always or usually at high capacity, because of the business model, the shops were not making much money.
I see a very strong parallel to so called "F2P" games. At some point, enough people have to pay. And advertising money and marketing partnerships and all of that crap is not enough if people are not paying. Only because MMOs are so cheap to keep running, is this not more obvious.
Having a lot of people in your store or game means nothing if you can't monetize the traffic. And even more so, if many of these players that pay nothing, do things that turn paying players off and make them quit (spamming, hacking, trash talking, flooding/farming instances etc), that actually costs the games money. (Just like in the cyber-cafe example.)
And that is what a lot of people who embrace "totally free" F2P games and criticize P2P titles don't get.
We have all heard that, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."
Well, there is no such thing as a free game, either.
Are you being obtuse to troll? if that cafe had a capacity of say 10,000 tables then they would not have an issue with someone filling up those tables, because a shop with 10,000 empty tables is not going to attract any paying customers (aka whale within this context) to make your story 'work' you would need to have a scenario where paying players could not get onto a server because it was full to the max of non paying players - in which case the server would obviously prioritise paying players so moot point (edit this is actually what your cafes above are doing lol). Incidently I play games that are FTP, and i tend to spend a fare whack on the shops, and I much MUCH prefer a full and active server than a server that is empty, i pay money because i can afford it, and I dont mind one hoot if someone deosnt pay as much - why would i?
The FACTS are FTP server work, if it didn't work they wouldn't allow players to play for free, whats to debate exactly?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Neo_Viper ]Be a man then and accept your title. You are someone who uses an entertainment form that others pay for for free. You are a leech.
I don't try to say it's wrong or right. I'm just appalled by the hypocrisy. And FACT is that those games would NOT exists if only leeches were playing them - the paying people are those who make those games possible.
I'm far beyond asking any kind of honesty on the Internet. I personally have a collection of over 150 movies on Blu-Ray disc, all original, not copies. Yet you have millions of people pirating the same movies all over the world (with more or less crappier quality, but that's food for other thoughts). Why are good movies still existing? Not because of the leeches downloading them for free... but because of people like me who PAY for what they think is good entertainment.
Freeloaders make me sick. And that's what the current generation is more and more all about.
You are only correct if DVD sales are what keep the movie industry afloat but I want to think they actually make more money off the licensing they charge to allow movie theatres to sell to the crowd as a much larger contributor to the profits of movie producers. Even with people pirating and distributions become so much cheaper to get out to people, these things aren't creating losses for these movies.
Here you have a great example provided by the dissenter himself on how people access the same content at varying prices and don't see any major loss in regards to the people that produced the movie itself. Some people want to pay $10-20 at a movie theater, some prefer to pirate it and watch it for free, others don't mind paying $10-20 a month to stream a collection of movies and others like this poster prefer to buy actual DVD's at $15-20 per DVD and be given to watch it as many times as he pleases.
Has the pirates or the cheaper forms of distribution somehow created a downfall for the movie industry? Certainly not. Why would the same be applied to F2P MMO's?
New MMOs are too easy and that is the problem. They require no skill to beat the content. It is becuase of the new generation of gamers which is unfortunite.
Anyone who argues that MMOs are not easy has to ask himself, when was the last time you were stuck and couldn't get past content in an MMO? The only thing that makes them difficult is when you have to get other people involved and make a group. This will lead to what said before and the new generation of gamers lacking the skill and being too impatient to complete the content so you will just keep dieing because of them.
They complain to the game company that the content is too hard even though it is their own fault for being bad and the game company listen because as we all know regardless of what the majority think its the people willing to complain that get their way. The people willing to complain are again the new gamers who feel they deserve everything with little effort.
There is no going back, there may be few new gamers who think like the old but not enough. Games will continue to be dumbed down for the new generation allowing them to get everything right away.
The old gamers will play old games and be sad about how spoiled kids could ruin MMOs.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Are you being obtuse to troll? if that cafe had a capacity of say 10,000 tables then they would not have an issue with someone filling up those tables, because a shop with 10,000 empty tables is not going to attract any paying customers (aka whale within this context) to make your story 'work' you would need to have a scenario where paying players could not get onto a server because it was full to the max of non paying players - in which case the server would obviously prioritise paying players so moot point (edit this is actually what your cafes above are doing lol). Incidently I play games that are FTP, and i tend to spend a fare whack on the shops, and I much MUCH prefer a full and active server than a server that is empty, i pay money because i can afford it, and I dont mind one hoot if someone deosnt pay as much - why would i?The FACTS are FTP server work, if it didn't work they wouldn't allow players to play for free, whats to debate exactly?
I don't think he's being a troll, I just think he doesn't get it (kinda reminds of the South Park "Fishsticks" episode with Kanye West....Carlos Mencia: "Come on get ittt....just get ittt homess", I digress).
This post illustrates the difference in volume between stores and MMO's that can't be compared. I think it also illustrated what I was getting at but let me re-explain what I was getting at so it can be easier for people like himself to catch. The analogy I used was mainly to point out that customers under my roof gives my business a greater chance at producing money than if the customers were under someone else's roof even if they don't plan to buy anything immediately.
Maybe they see something they like, maybe they go back and tell others how great the store is, it isn't a price per head thing regarding MMO's and it's trying to get as many in the door to increase that potential of having players that want to pay into the game.
BTW: I don't think customers having a hard time finding seats is representative of a business actually failing. You merely stated they saw a decrease in revenue which happens to many and every business and by no means were able to state a sudden failure in the cafe industry due to these "freeloaders". It's also hard to call them "freeloaders" when they buy a small coffee. That technically makes them paying customers. The potential of them purchasing more is also far greater being in that cafe as opposed to letting them sit inside a Starbucks. That cafe isn't making money if they choose to "freeload" and buy a small coffee from Starbucks and hang out there.
There's many times where I frequent a place and maybe order something small regularly but maybe one day I find myself needing lunch and I'm in a hurry so because I conveniently was located inside a cafe, I ended up purchasing more from that place later on.
Originally posted by JVasquez New MMOs are too easy and that is the problem. They require no skill to beat the content. It is becuase of the new generation of gamers which is unfortunite.Anyone who argues that MMOs are not easy has to ask himself, when was the last time you were stuck and couldn't get past content in an MMO? The only thing that makes them difficult is when you have to get other people involved and make a group. This will lead to what said before and the new generation of gamers lacking the skill and being too impatient to complete the content so you will just keep dieing because of them.They complain to the game company that the content is too hard even though it is their own fault for being bad and the game company listen because as we all know regardless of what the majority think its the people willing to complain that get their way. The people willing to complain are again the new gamers who feel they deserve everything with little effort.There is no going back, there may be few new gamers who think like the old but not enough. Games will continue to be dumbed down for the new generation allowing them to get everything right away. The old gamers will play old games and be sad about how spoiled kids could ruin MMOs.
That's a generalization and I have not seen any post on any forum complain about the difficulty of MMO's in quite some time. This post provides no basis on what grounds that players actually have done this within the last couple years. It also depends on what terms you call easy...getting to max level? Maybe. You just admitted to yourself though that grouping isn't as easy (and therefore challenging).
I'm not sure what majority you are speaking for since quite obviously this reflects your own opinion. Just because an MMO isn't catering to hardcore elite people requiring every encounter to demand mad skillz out of players doesn't diminish the value of the MMO. Some players actually just want to play the game so there is presented a happy medium between the two. Plus there's always hard modes/heroic modes that are presented by some MMO's which shows that some MMO's actually do try to cater the hardcore and it isn't always catering to the person screaming the loudest.
Originally posted by JVasquez New MMOs are too easy and that is the problem. They require no skill to beat the content. It is becuase of the new generation of gamers which is unfortunite.
Anyone who argues that MMOs are not easy has to ask himself, when was the last time you were stuck and couldn't get past content in an MMO? The only thing that makes them difficult is when you have to get other people involved and make a group. This will lead to what said before and the new generation of gamers lacking the skill and being too impatient to complete the content so you will just keep dieing because of them.
They complain to the game company that the content is too hard even though it is their own fault for being bad and the game company listen because as we all know regardless of what the majority think its the people willing to complain that get their way. The people willing to complain are again the new gamers who feel they deserve everything with little effort.
There is no going back, there may be few new gamers who think like the old but not enough. Games will continue to be dumbed down for the new generation allowing them to get everything right away.
The old gamers will play old games and be sad about how spoiled kids could ruin MMOs.
That's a generalization and I have not seen any post on any forum complain about the difficulty of MMO's in quite some time. This post provides no basis on what grounds that players actually have done this within the last couple years. It also depends on what terms you call easy...getting to max level? Maybe. You just admitted to yourself though that grouping isn't as easy (and therefore challenging).
I'm not sure what majority you are speaking for since quite obviously this reflects your own opinion. Just because an MMO isn't catering to hardcore elite people requiring every encounter to demand mad skillz out of players doesn't diminish the value of the MMO. Some players actually just want to play the game so there is presented a happy medium between the two. Plus there's always hard modes/heroic modes that are presented by some MMO's which shows that some MMO's actually do try to cater the hardcore and it isn't always catering to the person screaming the loudest.
I'm still in that crowd that believes that if you've been playing MMO's hardcore for 15+ years, good luck finding something that will challenge you anyways...
I'm still in that crowd that believes that if you've been playing MMO's hardcore for 15+ years, good luck finding something that will challenge you anyways...
WoW Hard Mode Raids and EVE Online would like to have a word. :P
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I'm still in that crowd that believes that if you've been playing MMO's hardcore for 15+ years, good luck finding something that will challenge you anyways...
WoW Hard Mode Raids and EVE Online would like to have a word. :P
Not really. Wow hardmodes were dances like regulars...the difference between your first time and the farm status time is that your tanks can take a blow, your weapon stab deeper, and your bandades are bigger. Same strategy...different clothes...
Maybe Eve, and yet that's probably because there's no game like it. If you were hardcore at EvE, do you think if another variant was released, you'd struggle at it?
There aren't a significant number because if there were, market research conducted by MMOs would find them and assuming there are enough people to make a game financially worthwhile, they'd be making games for them. The fact that they do not shows that there just aren't that many people that want an old-school game.
You people can keep trying to convince yourself that old-school games are still viable, they just aren't.
Actually, the poll associated with this thread counters your argument nicely.
You are correct that the paying players need to be there for the game to make money. What I am saying is that the free players are part of the system, and without them the game would fail.
That's a self-serving remark, as P2P games have been successful for many years (WoW dominated the market despite the expense of the expansions on top of the sub, itself).
Irrelevant. Completely different business model.
It's there to show you how wrong your assumption is -- millions of people in the "dark days" of gaming paid for subscription fees, unless they're used to playing trashed games that were hacked to play for "free".
Comments
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I agree with this statement. If I were running a store, I would prefer the customers to be in my shop than someone else's (such as a competitor's) even if they are ONLY window shopping. The potential for the sale is much greater when the people are inside my store rather than someone else's. I wouldn't call them leeches if the model presented allows them to do it, I would be just as likely as call the people that actually pay into it "suckers" if we were to work with the "calling people leechers" logic.
Ultimately its all about the value acquired gained by making/not making said purchases and running within a capitalist economy, no one really ever loses because the money being paid into or gained isn't floored or capped at a specific price. This is where subscription MMO's lose out on and where some subscribers that were on the fence about paying (and are "forced" to pay in order to play) might feel a little sleighted by not seeing their entire value being fully realized, but are stuck at the same price as everyone else to play a certain game. That's the biggest and glaring disadvantage to the subscription model and why its losing popularity or at least its my theory to the trend.
I couldn't agree more with the OP. I'm just done arguing about the whole thing. I do market research 10 plus hours a day as part of my job. I have absolutely no interest in involving that aspect of gaming into my hobby. I only know what I like and enjoy and it matches up very nicely with what the OP is saying.
To the folks around here that really enjoy researching the target audience and money spent on MMO gaming, I bow to your knowledge of the subject. It used to really upset me because I really missed gaming the way I used to and I felt like I lost that hobby. I'm playing FF a realm reborn and it's fun. It's p2p and it's got a nice old school feel to it, even if it's not just like the classics, it's closer than anything I've played since Vanguard.
Again, I'm not trying to say that there is enough of a market for an old school game, so don't even bother with the numbers. I don't care anymore. I'm playing something that I enjoy and I'm not going to change my personal taste in gaming so that it matches up better with the popular vote. I'm going to continue to support p2p, tab target games and not even try the others. Maybe, just maybe something really oldschool will come out eventually. If not, I have other hobbies.
Completely missed this before. Great post on how the model works, Jairoe3.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If whales are imaginery, how are those companies staying afloat?
And why would anyone needs an excuse? The devs already sanction playing for free. You can call it leeching or whatever. It is not like calling people names will stop them from enjoying free games that devs make possible to play free.
Because a significant majority of players are paying to play.
Be a man then and accept your title. You are someone who uses an entertainment form that others pay for for free. You are a leech.
I don't try to say it's wrong or right. I'm just appalled by the hypocrisy. And FACT is that those games would NOT exists if only leeches were playing them - the paying people are those who make those games possible.
I'm far beyond asking any kind of honesty on the Internet. I personally have a collection of over 150 movies on Blu-Ray disc, all original, not copies. Yet you have millions of people pirating the same movies all over the world (with more or less crappier quality, but that's food for other thoughts). Why are good movies still existing? Not because of the leeches downloading them for free... but because of people like me who PAY for what they think is good entertainment.
Freeloaders make me sick. And that's what the current generation is more and more all about.
My computer is better than yours.
Actually, those games would completely tank if the free players weren't there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You don't make any sense here, man... if only free players were playing, there would be no revenue, and no revenue means no way to pay the developers, CS team, etc... which means the game dies.
If F2P games exist, it's because a significant amount of people PAY to play. Without those people, those games wouldn't exist at all.
At the end of the day, both subscription based and free to play games only exist because people pay to play them. Leeches are a sad byproduct of free to play games, but definitely not the reason why those games can survive and thrive.
My computer is better than yours.
You are correct that the paying players need to be there for the game to make money. What I am saying is that the free players are part of the system, and without them the game would fail.
Without the free players, the paying ones quickly leave. They are as vital to the success of a free to play game as the paying players are.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This seems to be utopia to me. Actually, I could even reverse the scenario - paying players leave because free player introduce a demographic to the game which downgrades the social environment - aka freeloaders like our "friend", but also immature adolescents or even kids who wouldn't have access to those games in a subscription based model. Nobody wants people like "Naruwhateverhisnameis" in their guild. Antisocial people only using others for their own enjoyment, and not social players trying to help each other.
I've been playing LOTRO on Laurelin (RP server) since the preorder times. I've witnessed what F2P can do to a community, even a "controlled" one like Laurelin, first hand. I've witnessed RP guilds falling appart and quitting because the game has become a cesspool of immaturity.
So what's that socializer thing you're talking about?
My computer is better than yours.
That's a self-serving remark, as P2P games have been successful for many years (WoW dominated the market despite the expense of the expansions on top of the sub, itself).
So it's not truly about who can or can't pay, it's more like what pirate can get to play for free. The dudes that once went to Pirate Bay to get hacked games to play for free, now flock to "F2P" MMOs as the FPS games are also going the MMORPG route, and bringing their bad manners in tow, too.
In the days when the internet cost $300+/mon people protected their investment more. As soon as it became pay monthly not hourly, every riftraft known was online.
History is a great teacher in what F2P will bring to MMOs, and they're not so special to be so different from what apathy; anarchy and general lawlessness brings.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
That is only true to a point, but I will follow your analogy a bit further to the real world case of cyber-cafes / wi-fi coffee shops.
I read an article this week talking about how "freeloaders" are killing the revenue in many of these places, because people show up in the morning, buy a small coffee or request a free water (and by law the store has to provide it) and then take up the tables/seats/couches/IPad stations/etc. for most of the day and turn it into a virtual office. By doing so, the non-paying or almost non-paying customers are taking up all the space and not giving the other paying customers space.
As a result, table turn over time is high, sales are relatively low, and repeat customer numbers fall, because if someone wants to go someplace and have a coffee and read the paper but can't ever find a place to sit, they will go somewhere else. It also upset people that paid $6+ for a double-mocha half-whip latte whatever could not get a seat.
The article also detailed the measures stores were taking to get rid of the free loaders. So, even though these cafes were always or usually at high capacity, because of the business model, the shops were not making much money.
I see a very strong parallel to so called "F2P" games. At some point, enough people have to pay. And advertising money and marketing partnerships and all of that crap is not enough if people are not paying. Only because MMOs are so cheap to keep running, is this not more obvious.
Having a lot of people in your store or game means nothing if you can't monetize the traffic. And even more so, if many of these players that pay nothing, do things that turn paying players off and make them quit (spamming, hacking, trash talking, flooding/farming instances etc), that actually costs the games money. (Just like in the cyber-cafe example.)
And that is what a lot of people who embrace "totally free" F2P games and criticize P2P titles don't get.
We have all heard that, "there is no such thing as a free lunch."
Well, there is no such thing as a free game, either.
Irrelevant. Completely different business model.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Are you being obtuse to troll? if that cafe had a capacity of say 10,000 tables then they would not have an issue with someone filling up those tables, because a shop with 10,000 empty tables is not going to attract any paying customers (aka whale within this context) to make your story 'work' you would need to have a scenario where paying players could not get onto a server because it was full to the max of non paying players - in which case the server would obviously prioritise paying players so moot point (edit this is actually what your cafes above are doing lol). Incidently I play games that are FTP, and i tend to spend a fare whack on the shops, and I much MUCH prefer a full and active server than a server that is empty, i pay money because i can afford it, and I dont mind one hoot if someone deosnt pay as much - why would i?
The FACTS are FTP server work, if it didn't work they wouldn't allow players to play for free, whats to debate exactly?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
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I'm not going to go in there and play because I'm not a leecher, and leechers are bad
I am doing it right?
You are only correct if DVD sales are what keep the movie industry afloat but I want to think they actually make more money off the licensing they charge to allow movie theatres to sell to the crowd as a much larger contributor to the profits of movie producers. Even with people pirating and distributions become so much cheaper to get out to people, these things aren't creating losses for these movies.
Here you have a great example provided by the dissenter himself on how people access the same content at varying prices and don't see any major loss in regards to the people that produced the movie itself. Some people want to pay $10-20 at a movie theater, some prefer to pirate it and watch it for free, others don't mind paying $10-20 a month to stream a collection of movies and others like this poster prefer to buy actual DVD's at $15-20 per DVD and be given to watch it as many times as he pleases.
Has the pirates or the cheaper forms of distribution somehow created a downfall for the movie industry? Certainly not. Why would the same be applied to F2P MMO's?
New MMOs are too easy and that is the problem. They require no skill to beat the content. It is becuase of the new generation of gamers which is unfortunite.
Anyone who argues that MMOs are not easy has to ask himself, when was the last time you were stuck and couldn't get past content in an MMO? The only thing that makes them difficult is when you have to get other people involved and make a group. This will lead to what said before and the new generation of gamers lacking the skill and being too impatient to complete the content so you will just keep dieing because of them.
They complain to the game company that the content is too hard even though it is their own fault for being bad and the game company listen because as we all know regardless of what the majority think its the people willing to complain that get their way. The people willing to complain are again the new gamers who feel they deserve everything with little effort.
There is no going back, there may be few new gamers who think like the old but not enough. Games will continue to be dumbed down for the new generation allowing them to get everything right away.
The old gamers will play old games and be sad about how spoiled kids could ruin MMOs.
I don't think he's being a troll, I just think he doesn't get it (kinda reminds of the South Park "Fishsticks" episode with Kanye West....Carlos Mencia: "Come on get ittt....just get ittt homess", I digress).
This post illustrates the difference in volume between stores and MMO's that can't be compared. I think it also illustrated what I was getting at but let me re-explain what I was getting at so it can be easier for people like himself to catch. The analogy I used was mainly to point out that customers under my roof gives my business a greater chance at producing money than if the customers were under someone else's roof even if they don't plan to buy anything immediately.
Maybe they see something they like, maybe they go back and tell others how great the store is, it isn't a price per head thing regarding MMO's and it's trying to get as many in the door to increase that potential of having players that want to pay into the game.
BTW: I don't think customers having a hard time finding seats is representative of a business actually failing. You merely stated they saw a decrease in revenue which happens to many and every business and by no means were able to state a sudden failure in the cafe industry due to these "freeloaders". It's also hard to call them "freeloaders" when they buy a small coffee. That technically makes them paying customers. The potential of them purchasing more is also far greater being in that cafe as opposed to letting them sit inside a Starbucks. That cafe isn't making money if they choose to "freeload" and buy a small coffee from Starbucks and hang out there.
There's many times where I frequent a place and maybe order something small regularly but maybe one day I find myself needing lunch and I'm in a hurry so because I conveniently was located inside a cafe, I ended up purchasing more from that place later on.
That's a generalization and I have not seen any post on any forum complain about the difficulty of MMO's in quite some time. This post provides no basis on what grounds that players actually have done this within the last couple years. It also depends on what terms you call easy...getting to max level? Maybe. You just admitted to yourself though that grouping isn't as easy (and therefore challenging).
I'm not sure what majority you are speaking for since quite obviously this reflects your own opinion. Just because an MMO isn't catering to hardcore elite people requiring every encounter to demand mad skillz out of players doesn't diminish the value of the MMO. Some players actually just want to play the game so there is presented a happy medium between the two. Plus there's always hard modes/heroic modes that are presented by some MMO's which shows that some MMO's actually do try to cater the hardcore and it isn't always catering to the person screaming the loudest.
I'm still in that crowd that believes that if you've been playing MMO's hardcore for 15+ years, good luck finding something that will challenge you anyways...
WoW Hard Mode Raids and EVE Online would like to have a word. :P
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Not really. Wow hardmodes were dances like regulars...the difference between your first time and the farm status time is that your tanks can take a blow, your weapon stab deeper, and your bandades are bigger. Same strategy...different clothes...
Maybe Eve, and yet that's probably because there's no game like it. If you were hardcore at EvE, do you think if another variant was released, you'd struggle at it?
Actually, the poll associated with this thread counters your argument nicely.
It's there to show you how wrong your assumption is -- millions of people in the "dark days" of gaming paid for subscription fees, unless they're used to playing trashed games that were hacked to play for "free".
EvE is a splendid example, even.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.