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There Should Be A Petition For A True Open World Experience And Non-Restricted Open World PVP
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OWPVP games are the most successful. Its not about being reasonable people are looking for an mmo to play, not a daycare center to worry about the superficial fears of the hypersensitive. I think most of us get enough of that in day to day life.
The DAOC model isnt going to work its a niche market and it will just feel like a single player themepark game with a battleground in the middle. Even when DAOC was new people had a lot of gripes about it. Even during its peak it could never compete with SW Galaxies and not anywhere close to Everquest.
This is tried formula with predictable results and no amount of feelings or name calling will change that.
Ohhh how I miss those days when I grew to love and hate people because of how they treated others in an OWPvP environment.
How I miss open worlds in general.
How long must the UO, L2 and perhaps even EVE fans wait for a decent follow up? This is the real question. We were teens, formed by these games. Learning that the world is not fair. We learned certain ppl are assholes, we learned to fight back. We learned to scheme and choose allies. We learned tactics and to be aware of our surroundings.
Now we are older and thoughtful. We want more complex interactions like in the old days that have taught us so much, that gave us real thrills. Let's not hate the next generation of WoW fans, let them have their games (like this one). Let's not hate the game. Just wait for the right game to come back to us. We don't understand how ppl like games like this. Just as they don't understand us.
"Heads up 100% pure opinion here*
I can understand both sides of the arguement here. First off I get why we want an open world PvP system, It helps give the feeling there's a war going on these factions are here for a reason not just we like to join teams but, hey I like this cause so I'll rally to support it. SO with OWPVP it gives us a " HOORAH MY TEAM FUCK YOUR TEAM" feeling, thats one of the things that made WoW fun. FOR THE HORDE or FOR THE ALLIANCE whom ever you sided with. It help emerse you into the game. Also who doesn't like competition, its one of the things that makes MMO, Hell online gaming Great! And come on some of the best "While I was playing (Insert game name here)" Stories.
I also understand those who don't want it or don't care. See one thing that did bug me while playing WoW was Griefers. Guys who chose to spend their time pissing other players off just because they could. Hey to each his own, but come on people get online to have fun not, get frustrated because that one rogue won't let him finish his quest because he's camping his corpse. No one likes griefers, the only time I liked greifers was when they finally got caught by the guards or I finally killed em back. People get on to play, relax and have fun, not have to keep their eyes peeled while gather mats for crafting.
My time in WoW and a handful of other MMO's I played both PVE and PVP I really like them both, they are both have unque flavors. But I feel to make everyone happy *which they probably won't* they should implement PVE and PVP servers. I mean why not? or make boarders on the factions territories. So say a guy from Faction red run in with a group of his allies into Faction blues territory dude they should be free game at that point!, Sorry there is a war going on right?
WoW had it right * one of the few things it did right of course* PVE and PVP servers so those who wanted to gank and harrass and have massive Horde vs Alliance Zergfests in the barrens could and those who were more PVE incline could stick to the RPG or PVE servers. *Unless I'm misunderstanding how ESO is handling servers*
I do think its a little rediculous they are restricting PVP to ONLY Cyrodill, That sounds like a big barrier to me. I've never griefed any other players before *just not that good at PVP* But I just feel like its a need to give the game that much more emerstion. There are three factions and no one is going to defend their home stead if Team blue is stomping around in Team Greens territory? No retaliation or " GET OFF OUR LAND!!!" I guess you just have to wait for the guards or somthing?
But hey just my two cents, No OWPVP less emertion.
The problem with griefers in open world PvP scenarios is that it's possible for a single griefer to annoy or anger tens or even hundreds of players. The effects of griefing so far outweigh the number of people who are actually griefing that stopping it is nearly impossible. I wish I could find the article and the website for the rogue that effectively blocked progression for hundreds of players trying to get through or to South Shore in WoW. It was epic. There was a website dedicated to him and everything. On the other hand, one person affected hundreds of people in a negative way. Open world PvP allows this kind of thing by design, and I can see why a developer would not make it their primary game mechanic in a commercial product targeted at millions of people.
It might be cool to have an "Open World PvP" server or channel/phase though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
OP
I could not agree LESS with just about everything you said.
THE greatest faction vs faction game of all time was DAOC...and this game utilizes many of the same game features / mechanics.
Will just probably be a GW2 zerg this zerg that casual mess that i will play for a month then drop.
I agree there should be open world PVP, All the PVE carebears should be able to play on a PVE server...
Exactly.
Sorry, OP, but the folks who want in depth immersive mmo gaming where RPG matters, are finally getting a game as well. I applaud the ESO developers for seeing this. But, when I look at the amount of talent that is putting this title together (the fact that the guy who invented realm vs realm vs realm warfare is leading the project)....
You want an endless pvp game because what you don't know is that ESO will have an endless pvp game. Persistant open battlefields with castles and towers, siege warfare, and pvp that matters for every person in each realm (no ladder rankings here folks)...means that pvp is the main part of the end game experience here.
The old Dark Age of Camelot folks know exactly what's coming down the pipeline. the OP can't be blamed. He honestly doesn't know because he isn't experienced in such a game. Hopefully ESO's release will open the eyes of all the people that had no idea pvp was something that could be in depth and organized - not just unemployed and bored Johnny Griefer bottom feeding off of Bob the Family Man when he finally puts the kids in bed.
Some of the same talent that did DAOC also did WAR. It doesnt really mean anything with a totally different game and a new team. DAOC itself was never the top mmo anyway its always had a loyal base and does have its place in mmorpgs, but all the DAOC vets in the world could not even fill the population of WoWs Stormrage server.
It is also a little shortsighted to say he or she has not played DAOC and thus does not know what they are missing, a lot of us have given DAOC a go as well as surviving the two DAOC clones that have come out recently. Chances are if they didn't like GW2 they wont like this either.
I disagree that pvp matters in this form of RVR, if anything it makes me feel like my character matters less since by its nature this kind of game decreases the value of PVE and PVP. You simply have to leave one to do the other and the game ends up not doing one thing great, just a lot of things so so. It ends up feeling like Two different games under one hood which makes my gaming experience in one game not matter at all in the other.
. There are griefers but there are also anti griefers, there are raids on villages and castles and anything you can imagine in any pvp centric game. I think the disconnect is that RVR fans want to have an engineered divide between those elements and totally structured pvp where as others like myself like a more organic set up.
PvE carebears lol. It's impossible to count how many PvPers I've seen whining about this and that in game forums I've played. Either there's severe imbalance (read: got ganked by another psycho) or fotm is not their class or carrot on the stick is wrong colour or too small/big. Good thing is that ESO will be what it will be and OWFFAPvPers have look elsewhere.
lol really? God this game gets worse the more i hear about it, I honestest don't even know why they're bothering with PvP, when you do it half assed anybody into pvp isn't even going to bother with it. (I was out as soon as they mentioned its 1 server)
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
Bull!
There is only one OW PvP game that works (EVE) And the reason that game works is because it is structured. This fallacy you have that a FFA world will police itself is just complete and utter bull! It exists only in your minds.
Organic setup? Organic setup its complete and utter chaos. Griefers and anti griefers my ass! Thousands of griefers versus the 100's of antigriefers. One sided raids. Massive power alliances that will be impossible to beat therefore every player will be forced to align with them.
And I can hear you now chuckling, oh this will be so wonderful! Except it won't because it will always degenerate into one massive clusterf..k as gaming history has proven. And thats when people get tired of it and start leaving. Why? Because they can always blame the game design for why they got their ass handed to them every time they logged in to play,thats why. Or they just get tired of constantly beating on lowby toons and move on looking for new fun. Uh oh, pretty soon nobody is left to kill! Time to ditch this game and move on to the next organic clusterf..k ... and the cycle continues.
Thats the reality of your fantasy.
Now explain something for me. Why is it a requirement that PvP include an entire world? Why does it seem to piss you people off that Bob the Family Guy might be living peacefully on a continent just across the sea but the fact that you just can't go and completely f..k with him seems to drive you all crazy with mad PvP rage. How much space do you need? Why can't you just play your games in your own part of the world? Seriously, what is the diff?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I have to agree. A structured system like Eve's works very well to satisfy a greater percentage of players on both ends of the pvp spectrum and everywhere in between. Whenever you introduce a system that is so called "player controlled" it becomes so niche that the population seems non existent.
It's one of those ideas that sounds extremely cool in thought and on paper, but when put into practice it never works out the way you think.
In my mind, the only way to truly empower the player and make it work is to create a political system that decides rules and then these rules are enforced through game mechanics and not through players.
Edit:
I just wanted to add that the only reason non secure areas in Eve ( 0.0 space where there is no game mechanic law) is because what basically happens is the pvpers go into these areas and create large forces to secure the area for the non pvpers to come in and farm their hearts out. This could potentially work in a Fantasy MMO but the idea is that there are non pvp players in the game already, meaning they need a place they can do their thing while the pvpers are securing the good stuff for them. You can't just have a 100% full on pvp area game and expect tons of people to play. Mortal online is one of the closer games to this thought and it still has "safe" areas.
EVE or WOW, TERA, RIFT or Lineage you mean? I hate to tell you this but even wow offers half of their servers up for OW pvp. Why is it everytime OWPVP is mentioned you automatically assume its going to be full loot UO style with corpse camping and town burning.
Its not really a fantasy its reality no matter how you cut up the semantics the RVR style of mmo will never get the subs OW pvp can produce. It is not the unpopular consensus its the majority.
I think what you and some others are doing is confusing Factions with PVP type. RVR is not the same thing as Factions with OW pvp.
Frankly the Crown jewel of RVR is DAOC a game that at its best was the third choice to begin with and at its peak had a little over 200k subs for one solid year and now struggles to hold on to 50k. Then what WAR, GW2 these games cannot even compete openly with SWTOR right now and you want people to accept this paradigm as something groundbreaking?
Also in reference to your last statement, its not games plural is a game an mmorpg to be sure and if you are in my game your going to participate. I am not going tp play an mmo so I can be forced to play in one giant friend zone with a designated combat mini game in the middle. If I wanted a pure social mmo I would just play Second life which will at least offer me sandbox features and also has a larger population than DAOC. Non pvp has never been able to compete with open pvp ever. This is an mmo not a socialism, its not about how much space I need its about options and what I want to do when I want to do it. You can finger wag in indignation about how evil and immoral world pvpers are but that doesnt matter, it wont make RVR the popular choice or make DAOCs sub retention anything to worry about.
1) Your comparisons with WOW are irrelevant. That game was released at the perfect time for what the market was looking for, especially for players who never tried an MMO. MMOs are much more popular nowadays, many more options are available for niche and non niche crowds, and there isn't always a direct correlation between the populations of a game and how good they are when millions played simply because sometimes change is difficult such as leaving friends behind, what you had built up behind, and trying something different. Its just human nature for most. If Vanilla WOW was released in 2013 it would have 1/12th the subs and we'd be having the same conversation as we do with other themeparks. Then we would be comparing it to games like Lord of the Rings online, AOC, Vanguard, EQ2, Warhammer, Aion, etc that it copied those games and brings nothing new to the genre and the latter games would have had larger populations for PVE and PVP (except LOTRO which didn't really have PVP).
2) If Open World Grief style PVP is so popular and all other games that don't have it will fail, whats your take on Darkfall which caters to Open World PVP and continues to be a niche game with very little impact on the market.
3) Then you wrote: "Then what WAR, GW2 these games cannot even compete openly with SWTOR right now and you want people to accept this paradigm as something groundbreaking?". That doesn't even make sense, so maybe reword it. For the third time, let me educate you on WAR. That game's issue at release is that too many people were playing battle grounds forcing the RVRs to be empty wastelands because people had no real incentive to level in those areas as compared to the battlegrounds. It caused several outrages and several patches to attempt to bring people into the RVR which for many was too late. Please stop writing incorrectly about a game you may not have even played and if you have, write about it accurately.
4) I for one am glad with their current direction and don't have the same gloom and doom feeling you continue to write about. At least wait until you've seen the PVP before writing it off.
There Is Always Hope!
i hate to break it to you but ESO will have OWpvp if you consider games like wow to have OWpvp (which i agree with by the way).
cyrodiil will be a huge OWPVP area, not just a GW2 style zerg fest. there will be pve questing and dungeons, there will be ganking, there will be small scale pvp as well as the large scale "zerg fest".
you cant pvp everywhere in wow either, the only difference is it isn't forced on you, its optional.
you don't have to go to cyrodiil if you don't want to and you wont be a newb getting ganked and camped by characters much higher level than you are.
is the inability to gank newbs or grief people that don't want to pvp the deal breaker for you?
DAOC style RVR is not OWPVP and is nothing like faction OWPVP systems in WOW and similar games. OWPVP also is not just Darkfall, both of those points are misleading. Basically all the pro arguments I keep hearing repeated for this game are misleading talking points in order to sell RVR as OWPVP, which it is most obviously is not , or to attempt to sell OWPVP as just Darkfall which is also preposterous.
Throwing Gank and grief at the end of every retort is not helping your case either. You are trying to sell this game to people who know better already.
How well they do Cyrodiil remains to be seen but regardless even if its the second coming of DAOC, I would still find that style of pvp boring and immersion killing. It wont attract enough people who are serious about pvp much like GW2 fell off with pvpers and end up catering to PVE in order to survivie the same way GW2 sold out its players and frankly the same way DAOC sold out its players as well. It took less than two years for them to release Trials of Atlantis boost their subs for a year and then bottom out. RVR just isn't palpable enough to anything but a niche group of players, they wont make enough revenue go into panic mode again and start churning out the PVE progression.
OP,
It all boils down to money. They want max number of subscriber not a niche product. Open world/full loot pvp is doing pretty bad aside EVE Online.
Don't get me wrong, I play Darkfall and love it, but 50% of the people in DF quit after 30 days because they can't stand full loot or open world pvp.
Now Playing: DARKFALL Unholy Wars "Return to Open World, Full Loot PvP, Conquest in a Sandbox MMO with player driven economy! Just like classic MMOs!"
I agree that OWPvP is not RvR...
I do NOT agree that there isn't a market for a good RvR game. There isn't a Large market for it by any means. We're never going to see a RvR focused AAA mmo, but I do think that a game that's really done WELL can thrive.
That's why I'm on the CU bandwagon. It's a small budget game completely focused on RvR. That means they wont have to water down the PvP with ANY PvE.
If CU fails however, I think the nail will be in the RvR coffin once and for all.
I am a PvE raiding guy myself, and detest PvP as endgame content. I also like to think of myself as a role player in games that I can. In Baldur's Gate I keep a d20 with me because my paladin will not go through peoples belongings. If lets say at the Friendly Arms Inn my paladin is busy talking and resting, and my neutral aligned thief goes upstairs and acquires some things I will roll the d20 to see if my Paladin notices. Makes the game harder on me, but I love the role play aspect as it makes for additional dynamic story the devs did not script.
Now Nirn is a VERY VERY BRUTAL world. To really role play there would require FFA ( free for all PvP). To tell me that others would not gank, kill, steal (just engage me for no reason) in Nirn is totally stupid and terribly shortsighted of any role player. Saying they do not want it in game as they are into RP or PvE in Nirn? Nirn is full of Daedric worship. Hell even the worshipers of the Divines kill or maim their own: Pelinal Whitestrake or Timber Septim anyone?
Also FF (Friendly Fire) adds realism and makes for much more strategy. Takes away the mindless boring zergs in PvP. I can even role play in PvP then.
Lol. I played for several years in the DAoC RP server, Guinevere. I don't know how we managed to immerse and RP in an RvR game with no friendly fire... I guess we were doing it wrong.
PS... you should use your imagination a bit more and branch out from stereotypes... naughty Paladins are even more fun than the anal-retentive, goody-two-shoes types
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I am sure they will be MORE than happy if they get 200k players .... Thats 3 million dollars a month with the subs lol!
People quit DF because it is a poor game. I think every game should have one PvP server though, doesn't really cost them anything to do it and it makes the game playable to part of the player base. I've had a lot of problems sticking with GW2 because the PvE gets so bland since they didn't have a PvP server. One tiny little server and I'd probably have played it straight through from day 1.
Hmm wierd, DAOC had OWPVP...... Best memory I have of that game is sneaking over to Midgard PVPing.
EVE Online and Ultima Online beg to differ. Two of the best MMO's in the world and are still running today. Although UO got killed by introducing carebare land Trammel.
Keep on rockin'!