Originally posted by enik3 EVE is a better game when carebears/miners aren't involved anyway.
I love this comment , now answer me this
Are you
A - Pirate or
B a Null sec PvPer
Now both of them require 'us carebears' to build their ships, who do you think does that, do the minerals magically become ships and modules, for every ship you lose it takes on average 12 hours build time PER SHIP (tried finding the post on Eve-O but couldn't)
So you want to get rid of crebears and miners, ok the new rule for you is each time you lose a ship you have ot spend the next 12 hours or so building a new one how does that suit you?
So it might take say 1hour to lose a ship but then you spend 12hours building, so the carebears are no longer in game
and ftr im not a major pvper maybe in region of 1,000 kill and 100 losses, nothing major but i am a major production on average 4000 modules per week + 100 t2 ships, so yes i have the title carebear but dont assume we suck
Now in terms of the OP
If your an old vet like me you will remember the speed nerf... oh my 18k m/s BS or how about the missile change that rendered ALL CALDARI Missile boats pointless
so you see your minor ice mining inconvenience isn't that big, yes it might be a pain, but how about normal mining, or is that too much of a pain for your BOT to change roids every 2cycles
So through out eve (and every MMO) changes happen you said game was great before last patch, but what made it great ?? the changes from the original game?
Heck if you want original game how would you fancy mining in a Harbinger, ? bugger your mackinaw and hulk you had to mine in cruisers / BC then BS
so you see without development of game it wouldn't of been the game you love, so your small minded (or anti BOT ) change might of ballsed your game up, but for alot of us it made it more worthwhile.
yes my 12 posses fuel have gone up, but meh small price to pay to rid 70% of the bots from game i say
The way EVE's skill system works kind of requires it to stay pay to play or everyone would have 20 alts perfectly specialized. This is probably the only MMORPG on the market that is worth paying a monthly sub for. The fact you can grind out your sub in game works even better.
It also has found the perfect balance between the PvP crowd and PvE crowd. Both are crucial parts of the game and removing either of them would ruin the game.
Currently, CCP are countering this by releasing content that can be quickly experienced and are marketing it as infinite content, e.g. - "Rubican - there is no turning back". (The implication being you could spend your whole life enjoying Eve!)
Actually, the tagline refers to the event the expansion was named after which is the Crossing of the Rubicon, an historical moment where Caesar's army knew that by crossing over, their actions would be seen as insurrection and there would be no turning back for them. In Rubicon, there are features, live events and storyline that focus on this turning point, as the players seize further control of the universe in which they inhabit, basically defying the NPC empires to which they normally answer. It's one of the first steps in CCP Seagull's vision for the direction of EVE Online, and an example of the type of the content you'll see in future expansions.
The rest of your post was... well, you seem rather convinced of it, so I'll leave you to your beliefs.
As it happens, I work for a PR company. It's common to see 'strap lines' that work on different levels.
For example, a third meaning of "no turning back", in the context of space ships, is reaching escape velocity.
However, often the meaning the advertiser wants you to understand is the one that requires the least thought. It's the understanding that the lowest common denominator, such as a 14 year old, would understand.
The solution is to enable players to generate infinite content - such as giving us a 'lego set' in space - similar to MineCraft.
Ok, that logic i flawed. Any player made content is still bound by limits, thus in the end will only deliver a finite amount of variations, not unlike your gate camp example, and thus turn repetitive and have deminishing returns following you own logic. Player made content is not some kind magic well that will turn out infinete content. It will create scenarios playing out within a given set of rules, and thus only marginally different from random generated content.
That aside you are completely misusing the concept of deminishing returns...
Well, philosophically if we all lived forever, every experience possible would eventually repeat and would be subject to the law of diminishing returns.
Therefore, what is required is for CCP to create enough 'lego blocks' to provide adequate variation to entertain humans up to their maximum human lifespan.
I don't know how many types of 'lego blocks' that is, but I expect it's rather a lot.
I'm enjoying the changes personally. One of the better expansions in my eye, and while we might have eight years worth of skillpoints, or whatever, I can also see that Odyssey takes some pretty big steps in making things a little more accessible, and I don't think that's a bad thing.
Yeah that's so much better than time dilation, revamped bounty hunter system, crimewatch, new ships, etc. etc. etc. Things that actually add to the game of eve online. Being able to go for a stroll in a station isn't going to be the rise or fall of a PC or player corp in the eve universe. No ships are destroyed when you have you toon sit down. No fortunes will be made when you opt to have your toon stand.
As far as price goes:
Rift : 14.99 a month or $65.94 for 6 months + pay to play expansion
WoW: 14.99 a month or 77.94 for 6 months + pay to play expansion
SWTOR: 14.99 a month or 77.94 for 6 months + pay to play expansion
Eve: 14.95 per month or 71.70 for 6 months + no additional cost for expansions
You can see that the subscription price scheme is in line with the other games listed above, infact, it's cheaper than a few and you don't directly pay for expansions as you do for the other games listed.
Of course you could just choose to pay in PLEX and get everything for free.
No. The list you mention are tweaks to gameplay already there. They are subject to the law of diminishing returns.
The other games you list are overpriced and are not representative of the MMORPG genre as it is becoming. For example, GW2 has no subscription but now gets better reviews than WoW. SWTOR has a reputation for awfulness.
You are going to have to explain what you mean by those features being subject to the laws of diminishing returns I'm not seeing the connection.
Those games I listed are the most popular for the subscription payment scheme which is what we were discussing. GW2 doesn't offer subsription fees so why would I list it? However, if you want to discuss the cheapest payment scheme it's CCP's PLEX scheme: Don't want to pay a sub fee? Don't want to pay for an expansion? Buy a plex with your ingame success and play for free. No sub fee and no expansion cost = Zero dollars only ISK which doesn't exist outside of the game. PLEX beats all the other MMORPG payment schemes.
One possible explanation as to why you're not aware of the "law of diminishing returns" is your relatively young age (or the relatively short length of time you've been playing MMORPGs). You simply haven't got to that stage in your gaming life yet.
Therefore, for you, the subscription probably is still worth it.
Non of what you typed above is relevant because I'm aware of the concept but I don't see how it applies in your example; but you've asserted that it does, so go ahead and explain your position.
Assuming you have first-hand experience of the concept of the 'law of diminishing returns', here goes:
Eve Online relies on an infinite variation of player-made interaction in order to maintain infinite player interest. However, the flaw is that Eve Online does not have an infinite variation of player-made interaction.
Many of the activities within Eve Online are similar and finite. For example, gate camping.
Once you have experienced several examples of each activity, interest tends to wain.
Waining of interest is delayed by the time-based skilling system that delays the gaining of experience of each activity.
Currently, CCP are countering this by releasing content that can be quickly experienced and are marketing it as infinite content, e.g. - "Rubican - there is no turning back". (The implication being you could spend your whole life enjoying Eve!)
The solution is to enable players to generate infinite content - such as giving us a 'lego set' in space - similar to MineCraft. But CCP have other plans - they are using most of the revenue from Eve to fund WoD, DUST, and Valkyrie etc.
I really hope that answers your question!
The activities I listed above have given the eve playerbase more opportunities to interact with each other and created a few new or at least now viable career paths. This is the formula that they've followed all along with the exception of WIS. Give the playerbase more control over the game world and the activities they are doing or want to do. This formula has lead to their current success and over the past 10 years built eve into the game that it currently is.
None of the features I listed can be considered linear content quickly consumed without replay value so they are the lego set ( I prefer the term 'tools') you're looking for, sure, they might not be your cup of tea but 500,000 players and growing (minus you) find them to be cost adding to eve online.
From your definition every game is subject to your version of laws of diminishing returns even minecraft and lego itself.
Yeah that's so much better than time dilation, revamped bounty hunter system, crimewatch, new ships, etc. etc. etc. Things that actually add to the game of eve online. Being able to go for a stroll in a station isn't going to be the rise or fall of a PC or player corp in the eve universe. No ships are destroyed when you have you toon sit down. No fortunes will be made when you opt to have your toon stand.
As far as price goes:
Rift : 14.99 a month or $65.94 for 6 months + pay to play expansion
WoW: 14.99 a month or 77.94 for 6 months + pay to play expansion
SWTOR: 14.99 a month or 77.94 for 6 months + pay to play expansion
Eve: 14.95 per month or 71.70 for 6 months + no additional cost for expansions
You can see that the subscription price scheme is in line with the other games listed above, infact, it's cheaper than a few and you don't directly pay for expansions as you do for the other games listed.
Of course you could just choose to pay in PLEX and get everything for free.
No. The list you mention are tweaks to gameplay already there. They are subject to the law of diminishing returns.
The other games you list are overpriced and are not representative of the MMORPG genre as it is becoming. For example, GW2 has no subscription but now gets better reviews than WoW. SWTOR has a reputation for awfulness.
You are going to have to explain what you mean by those features being subject to the laws of diminishing returns I'm not seeing the connection.
Those games I listed are the most popular for the subscription payment scheme which is what we were discussing. GW2 doesn't offer subsription fees so why would I list it? However, if you want to discuss the cheapest payment scheme it's CCP's PLEX scheme: Don't want to pay a sub fee? Don't want to pay for an expansion? Buy a plex with your ingame success and play for free. No sub fee and no expansion cost = Zero dollars only ISK which doesn't exist outside of the game. PLEX beats all the other MMORPG payment schemes.
One possible explanation as to why you're not aware of the "law of diminishing returns" is your relatively young age (or the relatively short length of time you've been playing MMORPGs). You simply haven't got to that stage in your gaming life yet.
Therefore, for you, the subscription probably is still worth it.
Non of what you typed above is relevant because I'm aware of the concept but I don't see how it applies in your example; but you've asserted that it does, so go ahead and explain your position.
Assuming you have first-hand experience of the concept of the 'law of diminishing returns', here goes:
Eve Online relies on an infinite variation of player-made interaction in order to maintain infinite player interest. However, the flaw is that Eve Online does not have an infinite variation of player-made interaction.
Many of the activities within Eve Online are similar and finite. For example, gate camping.
Once you have experienced several examples of each activity, interest tends to wain.
Waining of interest is delayed by the time-based skilling system that delays the gaining of experience of each activity.
Currently, CCP are countering this by releasing content that can be quickly experienced and are marketing it as infinite content, e.g. - "Rubican - there is no turning back". (The implication being you could spend your whole life enjoying Eve!)
The solution is to enable players to generate infinite content - such as giving us a 'lego set' in space - similar to MineCraft. But CCP have other plans - they are using most of the revenue from Eve to fund WoD, DUST, and Valkyrie etc.
I really hope that answers your question!
The activities I listed above have given the eve playerbase more opportunities to interact with each other and created a few new or at least now viable career paths. This is the formula that they've followed all along with the exception of WIS. Give the playerbase more control over the game world and the activities they are doing or want to do. This formula has lead to their current success and over the past 10 years built eve into the game that it currently is.
None of the features I listed can be considered linear content quickly consumed without replay value so they are the lego set ( I prefer the term 'tools') you're looking for, sure, they might not be your cup of tea but 500,000 players and growing (minus you) find them to be cost adding to eve online.
From your definition every game is subject to your version of laws of diminishing returns even minecraft and lego itself.
While I agree with what you're saying, I just want to point something out: eve doesen't really have 500.000 players. That gets thrown around a lot but everyone knows everyone has a least a couple alts in average, so I estimate the average player base to be closer to 200.000 if anything.
On topic: I agree WIS was a complete waste of resources and I'm glad CCP discarded that idea for now. While the last expansion wasn't particulary impressive, it brought several important changes the game was in need of. I would rather see shiny new content after we have our core game issues fixed first, and while the new toys aren't that special either, they promote a lot of creative play.
While I agree with what you're saying, I just want to point something out: eve doesen't really have 500.000 players. That gets thrown around a lot but everyone knows everyone has a least a couple alts in average, so I estimate the average player base to be closer to 200.000 if anything.
This is always misquoted, what it should read is 500,000 subscriptions, because regardless of whether that is 1 person 500,000 accounts or 500,000 people with 1 account each account is equal in its subscription fee wether its plex or $$s
Included this too see how its reported its just often misquoted... but simple fact is eve online makes in region of £7mill per month in subs (just using very rough numbers) and whist this figure grows as it has the last 10 years they will continue to release awesome (and sometimes aweful) new content and expansions
Yes and? He was talking about 500.000 other players playing the game, which is not the case and you know it. This discussion is not about how much CCP makes with the game.
Originally posted by uplink4242 Yes and? He was talking about 500.000 other players playing the game, which is not the case and you know it. This discussion is not about how much CCP makes with the game.
Nope the point is about how many have left, but that isn't the important fact, its how many more subs is being made
The point is simple, it makes no difference to any game about how many individuals play the game but how many subs per month... but for some reason when people discuss EvE they seem to think its important to focus on the fact people have alts and forget that each alt = +1 monthly sub
None of the features I listed can be considered linear content quickly consumed without replay value so they are the lego set ( I prefer the term 'tools') you're looking for, sure, they might not be your cup of tea but 500,000 players and growing (minus you) find them to be cost adding to eve online.
Most specifically the part where it says
500,000 players
Just in case you didn't realize it yet, he said players, not subscriptions, which in Eve are on a relation of 1:3.
Reading comprehension goes a long way.
And let's stop with the blind fanboying, please. It gets a bit ridiculous and is outright lying to people that don't know the game. If there was no difference between 1 person with 500.000 accounts and 500.000 people with 1 account you wouldn't have an average online of 20k people which is about 1/25th of the supposed "playerbase".
None of the features I listed can be considered linear content quickly consumed without replay value so they are the lego set ( I prefer the term 'tools') you're looking for, sure, they might not be your cup of tea but 500,000 players and growing (minus you) find them to be cost adding to eve online.
Most specifically the part where it says
500,000 players
Just in case you didn't realize it yet, he said players, not subscriptions, which in Eve are on a relation of 1:3.
Reading comprehension goes a long way.
And let's stop with the blind fanboying, please. It gets a bit ridiculous and is outright lying to people that don't know the game. If there was no difference between 1 person with 500.000 accounts and 500.000 people with 1 account you wouldn't have an average online of 25k people which is about 1/20th of the supposed "playerbase".
Yes and ALL my point was its a common mistype any numbers quoted are ALWAYS 500k players and not the real figure of 500k subscriptions.
Again the average is misquoted as players, when actually its accounts there are no differences between 1 player playing all accounts and all accounts being played by individuals
The point is Accounts is not same as Players, even CCP released figures that approx each player has 1.8 (iirc) accounts as an average.
But fact is the game is growing in its simplist sense - Based on subscriptions money and thats all any MMO company truly care about.
Yeah that's so much better than time dilation, revamped bounty hunter system, crimewatch, new ships, etc. etc. etc. Things that actually add to the game of eve online. Being able to go for a stroll in a station isn't going to be the rise or fall of a PC or player corp in the eve universe. No ships are destroyed when you have you toon sit down. No fortunes will be made when you opt to have your toon stand.
As far as price goes:
Rift : 14.99 a month or $65.94 for 6 months + pay to play expansion
WoW: 14.99 a month or 77.94 for 6 months + pay to play expansion
SWTOR: 14.99 a month or 77.94 for 6 months + pay to play expansion
Eve: 14.95 per month or 71.70 for 6 months + no additional cost for expansions
You can see that the subscription price scheme is in line with the other games listed above, infact, it's cheaper than a few and you don't directly pay for expansions as you do for the other games listed.
Of course you could just choose to pay in PLEX and get everything for free.
No. The list you mention are tweaks to gameplay already there. They are subject to the law of diminishing returns.
The other games you list are overpriced and are not representative of the MMORPG genre as it is becoming. For example, GW2 has no subscription but now gets better reviews than WoW. SWTOR has a reputation for awfulness.
A moot point. world of warcraft far outclasses guild wars in most aspects.... its simply an 8 year old game with its 4th expansion playing it safe ... hence the review scores.
Meanwhile, after the honeymoon period of guild wars 2's accessibility and flashy graphics... its PvE scene is awful, its PvP lobbies are nearly dead.... only thing it has going for it is rvrvr .... very substancless games.
its ok though because they add stupid temporary content every other week.
"very expensive" is perspective... most of the free2play games are garbage.... this includes things like neverwinter. SWTOR is only worth playing with a subscription.
FFXIV ARR has a sub + exp cost.
Guild Wars 2 lacks in so many ways, it is NEVER a good example, critic reviews based it on the initial leveling, nothing else. which was good.
but pretty hypocritical coming from someone who is complaining about a lack of new content, when that "highly reviewed game" can't even do a decent end game.
None of the features I listed can be considered linear content quickly consumed without replay value so they are the lego set ( I prefer the term 'tools') you're looking for, sure, they might not be your cup of tea but 500,000 players and growing (minus you) find them to be cost adding to eve online.
Most specifically the part where it says
500,000 players
Just in case you didn't realize it yet, he said players, not subscriptions, which in Eve are on a relation of 1:3.
Reading comprehension goes a long way.
And let's stop with the blind fanboying, please. It gets a bit ridiculous and is outright lying to people that don't know the game. If there was no difference between 1 person with 500.000 accounts and 500.000 people with 1 account you wouldn't have an average online of 20k people which is about 1/25th of the supposed "playerbase".
Its usually around 50k online at once.... thats 10% of the "accounts" ... you think there woudl be more than 1.4 million people logged in most of the time on World of Warcraft when it had 14 million accounts? ... no.
Comments
I love this comment , now answer me this
Are you
A - Pirate or
B a Null sec PvPer
Now both of them require 'us carebears' to build their ships, who do you think does that, do the minerals magically become ships and modules, for every ship you lose it takes on average 12 hours build time PER SHIP (tried finding the post on Eve-O but couldn't)
So you want to get rid of crebears and miners, ok the new rule for you is each time you lose a ship you have ot spend the next 12 hours or so building a new one how does that suit you?
So it might take say 1hour to lose a ship but then you spend 12hours building, so the carebears are no longer in game
and ftr im not a major pvper maybe in region of 1,000 kill and 100 losses, nothing major but i am a major production on average 4000 modules per week + 100 t2 ships, so yes i have the title carebear but dont assume we suck
Now in terms of the OP
If your an old vet like me you will remember the speed nerf... oh my 18k m/s BS
or how about the missile change that rendered ALL CALDARI Missile boats pointless
so you see your minor ice mining inconvenience isn't that big, yes it might be a pain, but how about normal mining, or is that too much of a pain for your BOT to change roids every 2cycles
So through out eve (and every MMO) changes happen you said game was great before last patch, but what made it great ?? the changes from the original game?
Heck if you want original game how would you fancy mining in a Harbinger, ? bugger your mackinaw and hulk you had to mine in cruisers / BC then BS
so you see without development of game it wouldn't of been the game you love, so your small minded (or anti BOT ) change might of ballsed your game up, but for alot of us it made it more worthwhile.
yes my 12 posses fuel have gone up, but meh small price to pay to rid 70% of the bots from game i say
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
The way EVE's skill system works kind of requires it to stay pay to play or everyone would have 20 alts perfectly specialized. This is probably the only MMORPG on the market that is worth paying a monthly sub for. The fact you can grind out your sub in game works even better.
It also has found the perfect balance between the PvP crowd and PvE crowd. Both are crucial parts of the game and removing either of them would ruin the game.
As it happens, I work for a PR company. It's common to see 'strap lines' that work on different levels.
For example, a third meaning of "no turning back", in the context of space ships, is reaching escape velocity.
However, often the meaning the advertiser wants you to understand is the one that requires the least thought. It's the understanding that the lowest common denominator, such as a 14 year old, would understand.
Well, philosophically if we all lived forever, every experience possible would eventually repeat and would be subject to the law of diminishing returns.
Therefore, what is required is for CCP to create enough 'lego blocks' to provide adequate variation to entertain humans up to their maximum human lifespan.
I don't know how many types of 'lego blocks' that is, but I expect it's rather a lot.
The activities I listed above have given the eve playerbase more opportunities to interact with each other and created a few new or at least now viable career paths. This is the formula that they've followed all along with the exception of WIS. Give the playerbase more control over the game world and the activities they are doing or want to do. This formula has lead to their current success and over the past 10 years built eve into the game that it currently is.
None of the features I listed can be considered linear content quickly consumed without replay value so they are the lego set ( I prefer the term 'tools') you're looking for, sure, they might not be your cup of tea but 500,000 players and growing (minus you) find them to be cost adding to eve online.
From your definition every game is subject to your version of laws of diminishing returns even minecraft and lego itself.
While I agree with what you're saying, I just want to point something out: eve doesen't really have 500.000 players. That gets thrown around a lot but everyone knows everyone has a least a couple alts in average, so I estimate the average player base to be closer to 200.000 if anything.
On topic: I agree WIS was a complete waste of resources and I'm glad CCP discarded that idea for now. While the last expansion wasn't particulary impressive, it brought several important changes the game was in need of. I would rather see shiny new content after we have our core game issues fixed first, and while the new toys aren't that special either, they promote a lot of creative play.
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
Nope the point is about how many have left, but that isn't the important fact, its how many more subs is being made
The point is simple, it makes no difference to any game about how many individuals play the game but how many subs per month... but for some reason when people discuss EvE they seem to think its important to focus on the fact people have alts and forget that each alt = +1 monthly sub
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
None of the features I listed can be considered linear content quickly consumed without replay value so they are the lego set ( I prefer the term 'tools') you're looking for, sure, they might not be your cup of tea but 500,000 players and growing (minus you) find them to be cost adding to eve online.
Most specifically the part where it says
500,000 players
Just in case you didn't realize it yet, he said players, not subscriptions, which in Eve are on a relation of 1:3.
Reading comprehension goes a long way.
And let's stop with the blind fanboying, please. It gets a bit ridiculous and is outright lying to people that don't know the game. If there was no difference between 1 person with 500.000 accounts and 500.000 people with 1 account you wouldn't have an average online of 20k people which is about 1/25th of the supposed "playerbase".
Yes and ALL my point was its a common mistype any numbers quoted are ALWAYS 500k players and not the real figure of 500k subscriptions.
Again the average is misquoted as players, when actually its accounts there are no differences between 1 player playing all accounts and all accounts being played by individuals
The point is Accounts is not same as Players, even CCP released figures that approx each player has 1.8 (iirc) accounts as an average.
But fact is the game is growing in its simplist sense - Based on subscriptions money and thats all any MMO company truly care about.
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
That we can agree with.
A moot point. world of warcraft far outclasses guild wars in most aspects.... its simply an 8 year old game with its 4th expansion playing it safe ... hence the review scores.
Meanwhile, after the honeymoon period of guild wars 2's accessibility and flashy graphics... its PvE scene is awful, its PvP lobbies are nearly dead.... only thing it has going for it is rvrvr .... very substancless games.
its ok though because they add stupid temporary content every other week.
"very expensive" is perspective... most of the free2play games are garbage.... this includes things like neverwinter. SWTOR is only worth playing with a subscription.
FFXIV ARR has a sub + exp cost.
Guild Wars 2 lacks in so many ways, it is NEVER a good example, critic reviews based it on the initial leveling, nothing else. which was good.
but pretty hypocritical coming from someone who is complaining about a lack of new content, when that "highly reviewed game" can't even do a decent end game.
Its usually around 50k online at once.... thats 10% of the "accounts" ... you think there woudl be more than 1.4 million people logged in most of the time on World of Warcraft when it had 14 million accounts? ... no.
10% sounds as healthy as any game.