Yes lets hope that 612 MMOs all go to a p2p format! Wouldnt that be great! Every single game could go under! They'll get away with it for awhile, but when people are bored after a month and they're asking for more money we'll see what happens....All these companies think their game is so great and that we are all just willing to lay heaps of money on them for it....Even WoW isnt worth a sub and Im sure its better than this one will be.
What F2P bubble was that? I can only recall one AAA MMO ever releasing that was not P2P and that was GW2. And GW2 was not made for endgame or long term play. You get what you pay for. P2P games may switch to F2P after 2 years like Rift but if you want to play a quality MMO at release you have no option and that is P2P. If you want to play a low budget game for a short period of time before becoming bored and moving on to the next low budget game than F2P is the way to go. Just guard your wallet.
they will change their tune, after they hijack you for 60$ box price, charge you for 6 months of subs, and then go f2p.
as a company its truly the best way to go about it. the game at release will have a lot of hype, good sales, then fall off the cliff, til it goes f2p and actually makes the company some money.
ala RIFT. Wildstar, really offers nothing either hardcore or special
Ya imagine that a company wanting to get paid for its hard work over fleecing people in a F2P. Wow, a sound economic model and integrity coming from the same company, good for Wildstar.
huh, they arent using integrity, the exact opposite, look at Rift, TERA, SWtor, TSW, the last 4 big title games to come out, all f2p after about a yr or less, after charging for box prices, it seriously is the new cash grab. I guarantee that Carbine has a f2p model in preperation for about 6 months out, when the subs are under 100k
also, havent really seen any so called "fleecing" in many games of late, the exact opposite is true, RIFT, TERA, and TSW all have great models, and dont "fleece" their player base
Rift did not go F2P until after 2 years and the F2P killed the game. Once it went F2P any remaining players left.
it did? Rift numbers are way higher and they are making more money
Sorry I meant serious players and veteran players. Before the conversion Rift had about 15 serious world wide raid guilds left. Now they are down to 3 serious raid guilds left (Trinity, Addiction and Legit). The veterans have left and moved on with the game going easy mode and F2P. Although this has been a process that has been happening since the summer of 2012 (when Voodoo started the snowball was the 1st big guild to leave) when Trion started making the raid content much easier for all raid dungeons after HK.
I agree with the idea of subscriptions if done right. I see it like a magazine subscription. Every month (or thereabouts) you get new content. Plus you get access to the server and code maintenance. That stuff ain't free.
Right now what is starting to push me away from WS is the community on their message boards. Seems like the loudest posters are big jerks and I'm not seeing the community I want to see in a game.
they will change their tune, after they hijack you for 60$ box price, charge you for 6 months of subs, and then go f2p.
as a company its truly the best way to go about it. the game at release will have a lot of hype, good sales, then fall off the cliff, til it goes f2p and actually makes the company some money.
ala RIFT. Wildstar, really offers nothing either hardcore or special
Ya imagine that a company wanting to get paid for its hard work over fleecing people in a F2P. Wow, a sound economic model and integrity coming from the same company, good for Wildstar.
huh, they arent using integrity, the exact opposite, look at Rift, TERA, SWtor, TSW, the last 4 big title games to come out, all f2p after about a yr or less, after charging for box prices, it seriously is the new cash grab. I guarantee that Carbine has a f2p model in preperation for about 6 months out, when the subs are under 100k
also, havent really seen any so called "fleecing" in many games of late, the exact opposite is true, RIFT, TERA, and TSW all have great models, and dont "fleece" their player base
Rift did not go F2P until after 2 years and the F2P killed the game. Once it went F2P any remaining players left.
it did? Rift numbers are way higher and they are making more money
Sorry I meant serious players and veteran players. Before the conversion Rift had about 15 serious world wide raid guilds left. Now they are down to 3 serious raid guilds left (Trinity, Addiction and Legit). The veterans have left and moved on with the game going easy mode and F2P. Although this has been a process that has been happening since the summer of 2012 (when Voodoo started the snowball was the 1st big guild to leave) when Trion started making the raid content much easier for all raid dungeons after HK.
see thats the thing though, I quit after HK, I was in a top 5 worldwide raiding guild, it was actually the f2p conversion that made me comeback to the game, and I know alot of others in the same boat. We play casually and enjoy it alot more than when it was a full time raiding job. The players were leaving prior to f2p, so the 2 dont really go hand-in-hand. The thing is all of these "hardcore" raiders left, but where did they go? There is literally nothing out there
I agree with the idea of subscriptions if done right. I see it like a magazine subscription. Every month (or thereabouts) you get new content. Plus you get access to the server and code maintenance. That stuff ain't free.
Right now what is starting to push me away from WS is the community on their message boards. Seems like the loudest posters are big jerks and I'm not seeing the community I want to see in a game.
Have you been to Wildstar Central. It is the biggest WS community forum. The community here is wonderful. People treat each other nicely. It is by far the best pre-release community I have seen since hmm I was going to say vanguard but might be a nicer and better community than Vanguard's. But both were nice and the most well behaved I have seen. the only other pre-release close to those two was Rift. Not coincidentally the same CM who ran the Vanguard pre-community also ran the Rift community. Cindy Bowen.
just want to add, I truly hope Wildstar is successful, its not for me right now, I just seriously have my doubts it succeeds more than a yr without a f2p conversion
they will change their tune, after they hijack you for 60$ box price, charge you for 6 months of subs, and then go f2p.
as a company its truly the best way to go about it. the game at release will have a lot of hype, good sales, then fall off the cliff, til it goes f2p and actually makes the company some money.
ala RIFT. Wildstar, really offers nothing either hardcore or special
Ya imagine that a company wanting to get paid for its hard work over fleecing people in a F2P. Wow, a sound economic model and integrity coming from the same company, good for Wildstar.
huh, they arent using integrity, the exact opposite, look at Rift, TERA, SWtor, TSW, the last 4 big title games to come out, all f2p after about a yr or less, after charging for box prices, it seriously is the new cash grab. I guarantee that Carbine has a f2p model in preperation for about 6 months out, when the subs are under 100k
also, havent really seen any so called "fleecing" in many games of late, the exact opposite is true, RIFT, TERA, and TSW all have great models, and dont "fleece" their player base
Rift did not go F2P until after 2 years and the F2P killed the game. Once it went F2P any remaining players left.
it did? Rift numbers are way higher and they are making more money
Sorry I meant serious players and veteran players. Before the conversion Rift had about 15 serious world wide raid guilds left. Now they are down to 3 serious raid guilds left (Trinity, Addiction and Legit). The veterans have left and moved on with the game going easy mode and F2P. Although this has been a process that has been happening since the summer of 2012 (when Voodoo started the snowball was the 1st big guild to leave) when Trion started making the raid content much easier for all raid dungeons after HK.
see thats the thing though, I quit after HK, I was in a top 5 worldwide raiding guild, it was actually the f2p conversion that made me comeback to the game, and I know alot of others in the same boat. We play casually and enjoy it alot more than when it was a full time raiding job. The players were leaving prior to f2p, so the 2 dont really go hand-in-hand. The thing is all of these "hardcore" raiders left, but where did they go? There is literally nothing out there
I agree about nothing be out there and feel your pain. There are a lot of people in hibernation right now. Many people I know are playing FF14, many are still playing Rift either in the 3 serious guilds left or casually. But all seem to be waiting for the next big raiding game. Wildstar seems to be the main hope there. But I know many people that hate the graphics and will not consider the game. But many of the big guilds like Voodoo are focusing and recruiting for Wildstar. I know a number of people who have faith in EQNext. EQNext certainly has the hype machine and it may have raiding. But its focus seems so casual will it actually have anything fro competitive guilds or will be it a F2P short term cash grab with no long term play? If Wildstar and EQNext fail raiders then there is nothing. It is a very bad time to be a raider or hardcore player.
In regards to your post above about doubts about WS succeeding longer than a year or two before going to F2P. I share the same doubts. I do not believe WS will be able to last 2+ years P2P like Rift did. But that's ok they can make money at release and they can switch the model into a hybrid. Sub for raiders F2p for more casual players. The trick for WS is to keep to their vision. It is the only game being made for competitive raiders and it needs to be hard. Yes they can make 20 man for casual guilds. But the 40 man needs to challenge the top guilds and they need to keep the top guilds or there will be that trickle down with competitive guilds all leaving. Once a game is perceived to be easy it effects everyone. when guidls like Voodoo leave it has an effect on lots of other guidls. Gaffney has talked about this and acknowledged he understands that keeping top guilds and top players happy keeps lots of other players from leaving.
I don't mind if they go F2P a year or 2 down the road. Just keep the sub for raiders and keep the raiding hard. raiders have nowhere else to go. We need WS to be our home.
The F2P bubble will never be over since it is the most lucrative business model for MMO's. I suspect WS and ESO will go F2P within a year post release since as we all know the subscription model is dead but studios don't want to see it as such.
The only way subscriptions will ever stick around is through Studio's and Developers purposely building small niche style games where they expect a small hard core following. Big Budget all-encompassing Subscription MMO's will never return.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I'm all for P2P and think F2P is a disaster for MMORPGs.
but.
WildStar is going to have CREDD, which is the equivalent of letting scrubs buy game gold for cash. That kind of crap is usually only found in the worst of F2P. Buying gold is cheating. A game company facilitating cheating is weak. Especially when the game has premium box and sub costs.
So...while WildStar has some interesting aspects, the fact that it not only condones cheating but encourages it and facilitates it, makes it a resounding "no" for me. I don't want to pay to play with a bunch of losers who can't be bothered to play games and want to buy their way thru - since that's one of the reasons F2P sucks for MMORPGs. Play to win. No pay to win.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
I agree with the idea of subscriptions if done right. I see it like a magazine subscription. Every month (or thereabouts) you get new content. Plus you get access to the server and code maintenance. That stuff ain't free.
Right now what is starting to push me away from WS is the community on their message boards. Seems like the loudest posters are big jerks and I'm not seeing the community I want to see in a game.
Have you been to Wildstar Central. It is the biggest WS community forum. The community here is wonderful. People treat each other nicely. It is by far the best pre-release community I have seen since hmm I was going to say vanguard but might be a nicer and better community than Vanguard's. But both were nice and the most well behaved I have seen. the only other pre-release close to those two was Rift. Not coincidentally the same CM who ran the Vanguard pre-community also ran the Rift community. Cindy Bowen.
Yes, that is the community I was talking about. I'm not sure how you can say it's "nicer". I posted a question about crafting and the insults started flying pretty quickly. One guy was acting like if you didn't play the game the way he did (with multi-day raiding) then you were casual and shouldn't be playing. There was another discussion about customization of body types (both the poster and I played City of Heroes which had fantastic character customization) and the discussion turned to the female character options. In this case, the lack of options. Sure enough there were a bunch of immature people saying that it was OK that the female characters looked like models and those who wanted more options were being "feminazis" and other sexist crap. Interestingly enough both those posters want to play Chua. Color me "unsurprised".
Seriously, Vanguard and Rift must be a real cess pits to make WS look better.
So...while WildStar has some interesting aspects, the fact that it not only condones cheating but encourages it and facilitates it, makes it a resounding "no" for me. I don't want to pay to play with a bunch of losers who can't be bothered to play games and want to buy their way thru - since that's one of the reasons F2P sucks for MMORPGs. Play to win. No pay to win.
Wait, how does it encourages and facilitates cheating? That's a big "no" for me too but I want to know what they're doing first.
So...while WildStar has some interesting aspects, the fact that it not only condones cheating but encourages it and facilitates it, makes it a resounding "no" for me. I don't want to pay to play with a bunch of losers who can't be bothered to play games and want to buy their way thru - since that's one of the reasons F2P sucks for MMORPGs. Play to win. No pay to win.
Wait, how does it encourages and facilitates cheating? That's a big "no" for me too but I want to know what they're doing first.
Don't listen to that guy, he has no idea what the hell he's talking about. He has zero concept on how Credd works or even plex for that matter.
Now getting back on topic. I will not be playing WS because i don't feel its worth the sub fee. I tend to prefer sub over f2p if its worth it.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I agree with the idea of subscriptions if done right. I see it like a magazine subscription. Every month (or thereabouts) you get new content. Plus you get access to the server and code maintenance. That stuff ain't free.
Right now what is starting to push me away from WS is the community on their message boards. Seems like the loudest posters are big jerks and I'm not seeing the community I want to see in a game.
Have you been to Wildstar Central. It is the biggest WS community forum. The community here is wonderful. People treat each other nicely. It is by far the best pre-release community I have seen since hmm I was going to say vanguard but might be a nicer and better community than Vanguard's. But both were nice and the most well behaved I have seen. the only other pre-release close to those two was Rift. Not coincidentally the same CM who ran the Vanguard pre-community also ran the Rift community. Cindy Bowen.
Yes, that is the community I was talking about. I'm not sure how you can say it's "nicer". I posted a question about crafting and the insults started flying pretty quickly. One guy was acting like if you didn't play the game the way he did (with multi-day raiding) then you were casual and shouldn't be playing. There was another discussion about customization of body types (both the poster and I played City of Heroes which had fantastic character customization) and the discussion turned to the female character options. In this case, the lack of options. Sure enough there were a bunch of immature people saying that it was OK that the female characters looked like models and those who wanted more options were being "feminazis" and other sexist crap. Interestingly enough both those posters want to play Chua. Color me "unsurprised".
Seriously, Vanguard and Rift must be a real cess pits to make WS look better.
Maybe you caught it on a bad day. I read that crafting thread you talked about and I have stayed away from it. It is the worst thread I have seen on there with multiple people acting like idiots. I read most of the threads there but that one I refuse to even read it as its so bad. I think most of the good posters have avoided it as well. One thing to keep in mind as well. Its a slow news time. There is a strong degree of agitation. All the conventions are done. Beta has been down 2 months now while they redo the core systems. It is a very high anxiety time with people knowing there will be no news until we get a CB4 announcement. Add in lots of new posters are there. I see a lot of the normal posters not posting the last 3-4 weeks with a few new posters dominating. So maybe what you say has some merit. The last week I cannot recall a worthwhile thread that I have read. Maybe there is simply nothing more to talk about as it has all been covered so many times. But for a very long time WSC has been a great community. If threads got bad or people were rude people would step in. Bad behavior was not tolerated. Maybe now is the time the community is shifting or maybe its just a blip until CB4 starts.
But I would stick with it. There are many very nice people on WSC and it is the best source of info for WS by far.
The F2P bubble will never be over since it is the most lucrative business model for MMO's. I suspect WS and ESO will go F2P within a year post release since as we all know the subscription model is dead but studios don't want to see it as such.
The only way subscriptions will ever stick around is through Studio's and Developers purposely building small niche style games where they expect a small hard core following. Big Budget all-encompassing Subscription MMO's will never return.
they will change their tune, after they hijack you for 60$ box price, charge you for 6 months of subs, and then go f2p.
as a company its truly the best way to go about it. the game at release will have a lot of hype, good sales, then fall off the cliff, til it goes f2p and actually makes the company some money.
ala RIFT. Wildstar, really offers nothing either hardcore or special
Ya imagine that a company wanting to get paid for its hard work over fleecing people in a F2P. Wow, a sound economic model and integrity coming from the same company, good for Wildstar.
huh, they arent using integrity, the exact opposite, look at Rift, TERA, SWtor, TSW, the last 4 big title games to come out, all f2p after about a yr or less, after charging for box prices, it seriously is the new cash grab. I guarantee that Carbine has a f2p model in preperation for about 6 months out, when the subs are under 100k
also, havent really seen any so called "fleecing" in many games of late, the exact opposite is true, RIFT, TERA, and TSW all have great models, and dont "fleece" their player base
What TSW doesnt "fleece"??? Ya cause a box price + sub + a cash shop is just fair and honest.
The F2P bubble will never be over since it is the most lucrative business model for MMO's. I suspect WS and ESO will go F2P within a year post release since as we all know the subscription model is dead but studios don't want to see it as such.
The only way subscriptions will ever stick around is through Studio's and Developers purposely building small niche style games where they expect a small hard core following. Big Budget all-encompassing Subscription MMO's will never return.
That or change the prices of a sub...or make it yearly pay at 20-50 dollars, the chance would be higher than what it is now far as sub survival.
A matter of fact, to add on to my post few pages ahead, P2P games also take each other out, which is actually why niche p2p games survive longer(EVE and maybe FF).
Setting aside WoW which of course made it in time(Blizzard you lucky bastards lol)
When a P2P game comes out...great that's nice...but if it's a game that is obviously trying to be more than just a niche(WildStar,TESO...any others?) it'll only manage subs long as there is not another "Next big thing" coming out later.
No one here is going to tell me that most people would pay 30 dollars a month...on two games. I mean that's only if we are honest with ourselves.
It is possible for P2P to be alongside B2P and F2P...the issue is that P2P MMORPGs compete with each other mainly when the target is a broad audience.
Course maybe I was fooled and maybe Wildstar and TESO aren't even going for large amount of subs, least I hope not. But oh well maybe devs will learn in a few years.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Now getting back on topic. I will not be playing WS because i don't feel its worth the sub fee. I tend to prefer sub over f2p if its worth it.
I agree that sub is better than ftp. You're paying for a service instead of buying Zen or whatnot. Sci-fi MMOs are rare and I'm trying to give this one the benefit of the doubt. I think it has some interesting concepts. The game has a few more months before release to convince people to play it or not. It may change your mind or it may change my mind.
There's too much anger on the internet. I want a community that's not going to explode into insults if there's a disagreement or a "noob" question. I hope WS is it, if not I'll go elsewhere.
Maybe you caught it on a bad day. I read that crafting thread you talked about and I have stayed away from it. It is the worst thread I have seen on there with multiple people acting like idiots. I read most of the threads there but that one I refuse to even read it as its so bad. I think most of the good posters have avoided it as well. One thing to keep in mind as well. Its a slow news time. There is a strong degree of agitation. All the conventions are done. Beta has been down 2 months now while they redo the core systems. It is a very high anxiety time with people knowing there will be no news until we get a CB4 announcement. Add in lots of new posters are there. I see a lot of the normal posters not posting the last 3-4 weeks with a few new posters dominating. So maybe what you say has some merit. The last week I cannot recall a worthwhile thread that I have read. Maybe there is simply nothing more to talk about as it has all been covered so many times. But for a very long time WSC has been a great community. If threads got bad or people were rude people would step in. Bad behavior was not tolerated. Maybe now is the time the community is shifting or maybe its just a blip until CB4 starts.
But I would stick with it. There are many very nice people on WSC and it is the best source of info for WS by far.
In my defense, it was my first post and I heard a beta recently closed. It seemed like the best time to ask the question. I'm not sure whether to be proud or shocked that it spawned 9 pages (last time I checked) of responses. I didn't intend for it to be a bad thread. I like crafting and the last to MMOs I played the crafting was ... lacking. If the topic was covered before, I thought enough changed to get an update.
I want a good community in a game. I played City of Heroes since its public release and the community was great (overall) and I want that again. WS isn't even out yet and new people are getting interested. I want to be able to ask questions, even if they've been asked months ago, without a Chua-at-heart going on about how crafters are casual players.
A sub can still work out quite well. You just have to make a game that is fun to play at all stages. The idea of f2p is not appealing, I won't play golf on a public course, certainly won't play with the riff raff on a f2p game.
I was quite looking forward to wildstar actually, till they dropped 4 nuclear bombs:
1 - trinity based gameplay.
2 - traditional raiding.
3 - gear treadmill.
4 - pay 2 play.
guess what carbine, most if not all the people that like that kind of BS are already playing that game, it's called wow !
It's 2013 not 1999, people may keep asking for the same shit to be made because people don't like change but than again people also do not like monotony, it's a paradox !
it's good that the people that want change to at least some degree actually outnumber the trapped in the past kind of person by a lot in this world, otherwise we'd be still playing super mario on nintendo.
go ahead carbine, make my day keep these bombs in your game
I will be laughing my ass off when it only reaches niche status fmuahahahahaha !
F2P games have a lot of trash players and undesirable people come into your game to troll, cheat, and most of the time complain about every little thing. Playing several MMOs that have F2P and Sub options 90% of the F2P players were just horrible grouping with or just plain annoying. I have always preferred quality players over quantity.....
Originally posted by firefly2003 F2P games have a lot of trash players and undesirable people come into your game to troll, cheat, and most of the time complain about every little thing. Playing several MMOs that have F2P and Sub options 90% of the F2P players were just horrible grouping with or just plain annoying. I have always preferred quality players over quantity.....
So do p2p games. The worst kind of people i have met while playing mmo's was while playing wow, and that is a p2p game. Your point is completely moot and all i have to say to you to prove this is "world of warcraft".
I have met really bad communitys on wow and everquest 1 / 2 when all 3 were pay to pay, however, Lord of the rings online as a niche pay to pay subscription game always had the best community.
The spam bots and gold sellers are annoying, but wow proved even subscription based games have those, and final fantasy 11/final fantasy 14 both had gil seller spam bots as well with their subscription. So, you can't stop bad people or people buying gold by having a subscription.
Thus, having a subscription only keeps players like me from playing your game, because I'm already paying for other games, and I can't afford to be paying 3 - 4 subscriptions every single month.
It gets to the point where enough is enough, and you just have to go free to play or buy to play, because there's neither enough money for subscriptions, nor time to actually play the content. However, I do support buy to play, I'd buy the original game, buy expansions if I ever make it that far to need them, and then happily play for years on that.
I like everyone else miss when content was earned through quests in game, instead of bought in the marketplace shop. When you could have cool mounts and companion pets, cool titles and rewards in game through working hard for them.
When we actually used to get new quests and items for world events, and game updates that were fun and challenging!
The chats here remind me of the freaking hillarious approach EVE took to "cattle run" the "elite" or "hardcore" players.
"Learn enough of our game, spend enough time in it per month, keep our numbers up and (through in game currency) we'll reward you with paying the game free for a month." LOL.
EVE is *the* game I point to when I point and remark on F2Pers. EVE has successfully turned F2Pers into the ideal "party fillers" and stocking stuffers.
Comments
What F2P bubble was that? I can only recall one AAA MMO ever releasing that was not P2P and that was GW2. And GW2 was not made for endgame or long term play. You get what you pay for. P2P games may switch to F2P after 2 years like Rift but if you want to play a quality MMO at release you have no option and that is P2P. If you want to play a low budget game for a short period of time before becoming bored and moving on to the next low budget game than F2P is the way to go. Just guard your wallet.
Sorry I meant serious players and veteran players. Before the conversion Rift had about 15 serious world wide raid guilds left. Now they are down to 3 serious raid guilds left (Trinity, Addiction and Legit). The veterans have left and moved on with the game going easy mode and F2P. Although this has been a process that has been happening since the summer of 2012 (when Voodoo started the snowball was the 1st big guild to leave) when Trion started making the raid content much easier for all raid dungeons after HK.
I agree with the idea of subscriptions if done right. I see it like a magazine subscription. Every month (or thereabouts) you get new content. Plus you get access to the server and code maintenance. That stuff ain't free.
Right now what is starting to push me away from WS is the community on their message boards. Seems like the loudest posters are big jerks and I'm not seeing the community I want to see in a game.
see thats the thing though, I quit after HK, I was in a top 5 worldwide raiding guild, it was actually the f2p conversion that made me comeback to the game, and I know alot of others in the same boat. We play casually and enjoy it alot more than when it was a full time raiding job. The players were leaving prior to f2p, so the 2 dont really go hand-in-hand. The thing is all of these "hardcore" raiders left, but where did they go? There is literally nothing out there
Have you been to Wildstar Central. It is the biggest WS community forum. The community here is wonderful. People treat each other nicely. It is by far the best pre-release community I have seen since hmm I was going to say vanguard but might be a nicer and better community than Vanguard's. But both were nice and the most well behaved I have seen. the only other pre-release close to those two was Rift. Not coincidentally the same CM who ran the Vanguard pre-community also ran the Rift community. Cindy Bowen.
just want to add, I truly hope Wildstar is successful, its not for me right now, I just seriously have my doubts it succeeds more than a yr without a f2p conversion
I agree about nothing be out there and feel your pain. There are a lot of people in hibernation right now. Many people I know are playing FF14, many are still playing Rift either in the 3 serious guilds left or casually. But all seem to be waiting for the next big raiding game. Wildstar seems to be the main hope there. But I know many people that hate the graphics and will not consider the game. But many of the big guilds like Voodoo are focusing and recruiting for Wildstar. I know a number of people who have faith in EQNext. EQNext certainly has the hype machine and it may have raiding. But its focus seems so casual will it actually have anything fro competitive guilds or will be it a F2P short term cash grab with no long term play? If Wildstar and EQNext fail raiders then there is nothing. It is a very bad time to be a raider or hardcore player.
In regards to your post above about doubts about WS succeeding longer than a year or two before going to F2P. I share the same doubts. I do not believe WS will be able to last 2+ years P2P like Rift did. But that's ok they can make money at release and they can switch the model into a hybrid. Sub for raiders F2p for more casual players. The trick for WS is to keep to their vision. It is the only game being made for competitive raiders and it needs to be hard. Yes they can make 20 man for casual guilds. But the 40 man needs to challenge the top guilds and they need to keep the top guilds or there will be that trickle down with competitive guilds all leaving. Once a game is perceived to be easy it effects everyone. when guidls like Voodoo leave it has an effect on lots of other guidls. Gaffney has talked about this and acknowledged he understands that keeping top guilds and top players happy keeps lots of other players from leaving.
I don't mind if they go F2P a year or 2 down the road. Just keep the sub for raiders and keep the raiding hard. raiders have nowhere else to go. We need WS to be our home.
The F2P bubble will never be over since it is the most lucrative business model for MMO's. I suspect WS and ESO will go F2P within a year post release since as we all know the subscription model is dead but studios don't want to see it as such.
The only way subscriptions will ever stick around is through Studio's and Developers purposely building small niche style games where they expect a small hard core following. Big Budget all-encompassing Subscription MMO's will never return.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I'm all for P2P and think F2P is a disaster for MMORPGs.
but.
WildStar is going to have CREDD, which is the equivalent of letting scrubs buy game gold for cash. That kind of crap is usually only found in the worst of F2P. Buying gold is cheating. A game company facilitating cheating is weak. Especially when the game has premium box and sub costs.
So...while WildStar has some interesting aspects, the fact that it not only condones cheating but encourages it and facilitates it, makes it a resounding "no" for me. I don't want to pay to play with a bunch of losers who can't be bothered to play games and want to buy their way thru - since that's one of the reasons F2P sucks for MMORPGs. Play to win. No pay to win.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Yes, that is the community I was talking about. I'm not sure how you can say it's "nicer". I posted a question about crafting and the insults started flying pretty quickly. One guy was acting like if you didn't play the game the way he did (with multi-day raiding) then you were casual and shouldn't be playing. There was another discussion about customization of body types (both the poster and I played City of Heroes which had fantastic character customization) and the discussion turned to the female character options. In this case, the lack of options. Sure enough there were a bunch of immature people saying that it was OK that the female characters looked like models and those who wanted more options were being "feminazis" and other sexist crap. Interestingly enough both those posters want to play Chua. Color me "unsurprised".
Seriously, Vanguard and Rift must be a real cess pits to make WS look better.
Wait, how does it encourages and facilitates cheating? That's a big "no" for me too but I want to know what they're doing first.
Don't listen to that guy, he has no idea what the hell he's talking about. He has zero concept on how Credd works or even plex for that matter.
Now getting back on topic. I will not be playing WS because i don't feel its worth the sub fee. I tend to prefer sub over f2p if its worth it.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Maybe you caught it on a bad day. I read that crafting thread you talked about and I have stayed away from it. It is the worst thread I have seen on there with multiple people acting like idiots. I read most of the threads there but that one I refuse to even read it as its so bad. I think most of the good posters have avoided it as well. One thing to keep in mind as well. Its a slow news time. There is a strong degree of agitation. All the conventions are done. Beta has been down 2 months now while they redo the core systems. It is a very high anxiety time with people knowing there will be no news until we get a CB4 announcement. Add in lots of new posters are there. I see a lot of the normal posters not posting the last 3-4 weeks with a few new posters dominating. So maybe what you say has some merit. The last week I cannot recall a worthwhile thread that I have read. Maybe there is simply nothing more to talk about as it has all been covered so many times. But for a very long time WSC has been a great community. If threads got bad or people were rude people would step in. Bad behavior was not tolerated. Maybe now is the time the community is shifting or maybe its just a blip until CB4 starts.
But I would stick with it. There are many very nice people on WSC and it is the best source of info for WS by far.
I don't please provide facts to back up your statement. There is a reason all the AAA games are going sub and that is if the game is good and you can keep players you will make substantially more money with sub. http://www.businessinsider.com/here-are-the-top-10-highest-grossing-video-games-of-all-time-2012-6?op=1 . I fail to see any p2p mmos in this list.
What TSW doesnt "fleece"??? Ya cause a box price + sub + a cash shop is just fair and honest.
That or change the prices of a sub...or make it yearly pay at 20-50 dollars, the chance would be higher than what it is now far as sub survival.
A matter of fact, to add on to my post few pages ahead, P2P games also take each other out, which is actually why niche p2p games survive longer(EVE and maybe FF).
Setting aside WoW which of course made it in time(Blizzard you lucky bastards lol)
When a P2P game comes out...great that's nice...but if it's a game that is obviously trying to be more than just a niche(WildStar,TESO...any others?) it'll only manage subs long as there is not another "Next big thing" coming out later.
No one here is going to tell me that most people would pay 30 dollars a month...on two games. I mean that's only if we are honest with ourselves.
It is possible for P2P to be alongside B2P and F2P...the issue is that P2P MMORPGs compete with each other mainly when the target is a broad audience.
Course maybe I was fooled and maybe Wildstar and TESO aren't even going for large amount of subs, least I hope not. But oh well maybe devs will learn in a few years.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I agree that sub is better than ftp. You're paying for a service instead of buying Zen or whatnot. Sci-fi MMOs are rare and I'm trying to give this one the benefit of the doubt. I think it has some interesting concepts. The game has a few more months before release to convince people to play it or not. It may change your mind or it may change my mind.
There's too much anger on the internet. I want a community that's not going to explode into insults if there's a disagreement or a "noob" question. I hope WS is it, if not I'll go elsewhere.
In my defense, it was my first post and I heard a beta recently closed. It seemed like the best time to ask the question. I'm not sure whether to be proud or shocked that it spawned 9 pages (last time I checked) of responses. I didn't intend for it to be a bad thread. I like crafting and the last to MMOs I played the crafting was ... lacking. If the topic was covered before, I thought enough changed to get an update.
I want a good community in a game. I played City of Heroes since its public release and the community was great (overall) and I want that again. WS isn't even out yet and new people are getting interested. I want to be able to ask questions, even if they've been asked months ago, without a Chua-at-heart going on about how crafters are casual players.
I was quite looking forward to wildstar actually, till they dropped 4 nuclear bombs:
1 - trinity based gameplay.
2 - traditional raiding.
3 - gear treadmill.
4 - pay 2 play.
guess what carbine, most if not all the people that like that kind of BS are already playing that game, it's called wow !
It's 2013 not 1999, people may keep asking for the same shit to be made because people don't like change but than again people also do not like monotony, it's a paradox !
it's good that the people that want change to at least some degree actually outnumber the trapped in the past kind of person by a lot in this world, otherwise we'd be still playing super mario on nintendo.
go ahead carbine, make my day keep these bombs in your game
I will be laughing my ass off when it only reaches niche status fmuahahahahaha !
So do p2p games. The worst kind of people i have met while playing mmo's was while playing wow, and that is a p2p game. Your point is completely moot and all i have to say to you to prove this is "world of warcraft".
I have met really bad communitys on wow and everquest 1 / 2 when all 3 were pay to pay, however, Lord of the rings online as a niche pay to pay subscription game always had the best community.
The spam bots and gold sellers are annoying, but wow proved even subscription based games have those, and final fantasy 11/final fantasy 14 both had gil seller spam bots as well with their subscription. So, you can't stop bad people or people buying gold by having a subscription.
Thus, having a subscription only keeps players like me from playing your game, because I'm already paying for other games, and I can't afford to be paying 3 - 4 subscriptions every single month.
It gets to the point where enough is enough, and you just have to go free to play or buy to play, because there's neither enough money for subscriptions, nor time to actually play the content. However, I do support buy to play, I'd buy the original game, buy expansions if I ever make it that far to need them, and then happily play for years on that.
I like everyone else miss when content was earned through quests in game, instead of bought in the marketplace shop. When you could have cool mounts and companion pets, cool titles and rewards in game through working hard for them.
When we actually used to get new quests and items for world events, and game updates that were fun and challenging!
The chats here remind me of the freaking hillarious approach EVE took to "cattle run" the "elite" or "hardcore" players.
"Learn enough of our game, spend enough time in it per month, keep our numbers up and (through in game currency) we'll reward you with paying the game free for a month." LOL.
EVE is *the* game I point to when I point and remark on F2Pers. EVE has successfully turned F2Pers into the ideal "party fillers" and stocking stuffers.
Discuss. Reason. Society.
Become a Dragon. Take your world back.